Judgement: In that vast shadow...

[Turgon]

The Debate between the Scholars and Tolkienologists has officially ended, and time has come to cast judgement. The debate can be found here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9844).

The following members will act as judges:

Ancalagon
Chrysophalax
Gothmog
Walter

The fifth and final vote being cast according to the result of the poll. I urge all members voting on the poll to read the thread thoroughly before making a decision.

And thanks to both sides for an interesting debate!

[gate7ole]

I bring here the first judgement of the glorious debate among the two guilds.
First, let me congratulate both teams for their excellent arguments.
The topic was (and still is) very open. Because of this, none of the teams convinced me to take their side (I changed my decision many times). Some very strong arguments were heard that indicated either side. So, on these grounds, my judgement must be based only on the evidence that was brought by the teams as a part of debating arguments.
The Scholars had a more consistent line of arguments, based on facts taken from the books. The Tolkienologists had more “instinctive” arguments based on their interpretation of the topic. Of the two methods, I prefer the first, since it is more difficult to be rejected.
Furthermore, the line of the Scholars was more coherent, forming a united front, while the Tolkienologists were more independent among themselves. Plus some mistakes form the part of the Tolkienologists, decreased the impression of their good image.
Finally, a few words about the topic itself:
The Tolkienologists failed IMO to mention that the Eldar did not know the spreading of Morgoth, on the contrary they felt that his powers were augmenting. And they failed to reject the “planning” of Morgoth’s slaying, as an alternative way of winning this war. On the other hand, they used very well, the concept of sacrifice and the comparison of Morgoth with the other Incarnates.
The Scholars failed to oppose to this comparison of Morgoth with the others and in general to convince me that Morgoth could be killed by Fingolfin. On the other hand, they used very well the glorious description of the battle and the “motives” of a desperate person to kill.

Concluding, I will give a light advance to the guild of Scholars, but I believe that the work of the Tolkienologists was a bit harder.
Congratulations again to all the participants.

[Nóm]

Thanks for typing up a judgement, gate7ole.

Thanks to everyone involved; the teams, Turgon, and all of the judges. I enjoyed the debate.

[Gothmog]

My congratulations to both teams on a hard fought debate.

The Guild of Tolkienology argued the view that Fingolfin challenged Morgoth with the intention of committing Suicide. They first concentrated on the word "despair" and tried to show that this caused Fingolfin to choose to throw away his life. However, for me they did not sufficiently explain the "Wrath" that was also part of the quote so as to make this into a convincing argument.

Lhunithiliel next tried to explain the action by making it a question of "Elvish Religion". In this argument she could only bring up conjectures as to what this religion might be and what it might cause someone like Fingolfin to do but she did not produce anything to give this idea sufficient grounding to support the argument and convince me about it.

Finally Lhunithiliel tried to change tack by using "Sacrifice" instead of "Suicide". this had no bearing on the debate as it was still necessary to prove that Fingolfin had made a conscious decision to end his life by means of the fight with Morgoth.

The Guild of Scholars Hall argued that Fingolfin had no intention to do other than to kill Morgoth. Their arguments throughout were consistent and pointed to Fingolfin being foolish but not caring about anything other than to kill Morgoth. They pointed out that Fingolfin had tried before to launch an attack upon Thangorodrim before Morgoth could gather enough forces to overwhelm the Noldor and therefore was not one to stand and wait.



I vote in favour of the Guild of Scholars.

[Mirabella]

It was a hard fought battle on both sides, but it is my considered opinion that the Scholars won the field. I cannot, from any of the evidence the Tolkienologists provided, conclude that Fingolfin purposefully sacrificed his life.

[Walter]

Not an easy task, judging in this debate...

Both parties have contributed well to an excellent discussion about a very interesting question. I think gate7 precisely hits the thumb with the hammer - ooops - I mean hits the nail on the head ;) when he says " The Scholars had a more consistent line of arguments, based on facts taken from the books. The Tolkienologists had more “instinctive” arguments based on their interpretation of the topic.". I feel both approaches are valid in the context of this subject and Tolkien's texts leave enough room for both.

What I would like to mention is that not only the "debating veterans" ;) have provided excellent posts, but also the "greenhorns" (I hope y'all won't mind the term ;)).

However, I have also taken into consideration that the Tolkienologists had - deliberately chosen - the position somewhat more difficult to obtain, for I think it is rather hard trying to "prove" that someone deliberately or purposely chose to end their life and - more or less - commit suicide.

As for my vote: I have assessed each post individually for its contents, discussion style and quality and "overall contribution to the topic" (+/0/-), summed up the results (and divided by the number of posts to avoid favouring the party with more posts). My result is a rather clear draw (which btw. matches the overall impression I got).

Quite a few statements have impressed me because of their depth and I would like to quote - only - two of them here:

Fingolfin was not sitting still thinking planning his actions coolly and rationally. He was filled with wrath and despair, and in this state he was not thinking about his own death, not about the fate of Arda in the End, not about how mismatched the battle with Melkor would be. He was only thinking of one thing: to destroy the one who had done this to his people. Even for one as wise and rational as Fingolfin, there is a point at which reason breaks down. This is conjecture, I admit, but I believe despair, rage and madness can add up to loss of reason. In the state Fingolfin thought himself a match for Morgoth, and intended to destroy him. I wonder if we all know exactly what goes through the mind of someone who is in such a state of mind where their life has nothing left?

No matter how wise and powerful Fingolfin was, no matter how strong his mind was, when he beheld the utter ruin of his people, his people that had fought and died for him, died for a cause that he finally realised they had no hope of winning, his mind was broken.
His mind was thrust into such a state that he saw no hope left for the remainder of his people or for himself.

Fingolfin was in utter despair, and without thought he rode alone into the heart of enemy territory, he rode forth into the shadow of death obviously knowing he would surely die.

[chrysophalax]

Absolutely marvelous! I had to vote for a draw as both sides were very passionate iand knowledgeable in their presentations. Kudos to Lhun and Inderjit . Lhun...what can I say? I would love to see you on a stage! Your passion and determination are formidable indeed. A MOST impressive opening post...

Inderjit...I think Maedhros may have to look over his shoulder soon.:D

As for the incredible Noldo himself, Maedhros, as usual you don't disappoint. Elfarmari and Nom...you two would make a great and terrifying team!

Turgon, you must ask me to judge again sometime!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by chrysophalax
Absolutely marvelous! I had to vote for a draw as both sides were very passionate iand knowledgeable in their presentations. Kudos to Lhun and Inderjit . Lhun...what can I say? I would love to see you on a stage! Your passion and determination are formidable indeed. A MOST impressive opening post...

Don't I LOVE dragons!!!! :D

To tell you the truth, the moment I brought up the "Elvish religion" - thing I started feeling as Don Quijote in his fight with the wind-mills.... ;) :D

But I hate it when a debate starts going into circles and not in spyrals! So, I had to put in something to wind it up!

[Ancalagon]

A thousand apologies to all for the delay in my judgement on this debate. I shall post my response a little later this evening.

[Ancalagon]

Whew, what a wonderful debate.

The nature of the question leads one to identify with a more emotional, suggestive interpretation of Fingolfins purpose, than it does with simply providing multiple quotations.

Fingolfin riding to his doom in 'wrath and despair' who 'none might restrain' is basically a matter of personal interpretation. Did he intend to ride to glorious victory or glorious death?

I must say I find more affinity with the stance of Tolkienologists in this debate. I found the question of 'wrath and despair' constantly on my mind as I read through the debate. I empathise with the motive that Fingolfin purposely set about facing Morgoth, knowing clearly he would not succeed in dealing Morgoth his deathblow, but making every effort to vent his 'wrath and despair' upon him.

There is no doubting the slickness of Scholars style of debating, they are uniform and purposeful in their approach. Tolkienologists were a little more disjointed, passionate and individually defending the emotional reasons for Fingolfins course of action.

I do not beleive the Scholars debated with the same passion, as I do not entirely beleive they were convinced of their own stance. However, the fact remains that I am not convinced of their position for their side of the debate.

Tolkienologists get my vote. However, for future reference I would suggest a more combined, uniform approach as a team.

[Nóm]

Well again thanks to everyone!

I suppose we could learn a alot in this, I did come early on to believe my position in this debate and I think at least one other scholar did too... I suppose we should show more passion next time.


Anyhow, I loved this debate, it is my favorite official debate to date, and I view Fingolfin differently now... and well the Noldor have been for months my primary reason for being into Tolkien as much as I am.

Great topic! :D

[Turgon]

Well all the votes are now in - and I must agree that this was a great debate. Now the voting has finished I can safely say that when this debate began I did believe that Fingolfin's action was suicidal - but now my opinion has swung the other way as has a few people's I think. That can only be good thing - provoking new thoughts are what these debates are all about I think.

Anyway that being said the voting was as follows:

The Guild of Scholars - 2 votes
The Guild of Tolkienology - 1 vote
Draw - 2 votes

Therefore I award the decision to the Guild of Scholars - by the narrowest of margins. But well done everybody! I hope I get to host a debate again sometime - it's been a real pleasure!