Big Words?

[HLGStrider]

We do a student review of our papers in my college writing class. You review other people's papers.

Well on one of my reviews (a person did of mine) they complained that I'd used the word Machivellian and hadn't explained it.

Is it a bad idea to use big words in your writing? I thought Machivellian would be fine.

I know if I were writing for little kids or if I was a doctor writing about sickness to lay people I would want to use easier terms. . . but when does writing for your audience cease and dumbing things down for dumbies start?

[Celebthôl]

As soon as you tell me the meaning of the word "Machivellian"...
I guess im just one of the dum people that doesn't understand it...:rolleyes:

[Aulë]

I believe that it's spelt Machiavellian, and I think it refers to someone who is characterized by expediency, deceit, and cunning.


Hehe- look what I found! Its the longest word in the English language!
Methionylglutaminylarginyltyrosylglutamylserylleuc ylphen-
ylalanylalanylglutaminylleucyllysylglutamylarginyl lysylgluta-
mylglysylalanylphenylalanylvalylprolylphenylalanyl yalylthre-
onylleucylglcycylaspartylprolylglicylisoleucygluta mylgluta-
minlserylleucyllysylisoleucylaspartylthreonylleucy lisoleu-
cylglutamylalanylglyclyalanylaspartylalanylleucygl utamylle-
ucylgluycylisoleucylproluylphenylalanyserylasparty prolylleu-
celalanylaspartylglycylprolylthreonylisolleucyglut aminylaspa-
raginylalanythreonylleucylarginylalanylphenylalany lalanylal-
anylglycylvalylthreonylprolylalanylglutaminylcyste inylphen-
ylalanylglglutamylmethionylleucyalanylleucylisoleu cylarginyl-
glutaminyllysylhistidylprolyuthreonylisoleucylprol ylisoleuc-
ylglycylleucylleucylmethionyltyrosylalanylasbaragi nylleucyl-
valylphenylalanylsparaginyyllysylglycylisoleucylas partylglut-
amylphenylalanylyltyrosylalanylglutaminylcysteinyl glutamyll-
ysylvalylglycylvalylspartylserylvalylleucylvallala nylaspart-
ylvalylprolylvalvlglutaminylglutamylserylalanylpro lylpheny-
lalalrginylglutaminylalanylalanylleucylarginylhist idylasp-
araginylvalylalalprolylisoleucylphenylalanylisoleu cylcystei-
nylprolyprolylaspartylalanylaspartylaspartyspartyl eucylle-
ucylarginylglutaminylisoleucylalanylseryltyroslgly cylargin-
ylglycyltyrosylthreonyltyrosylleucylleucylserylarg inlalanyl-
glycylvalylthreonylglycylalanylglutamylasparaginyl arginyla-
nylalanylleucylprolylleucylaspaaginylhistidylleucy lvalylalan-
yllysylleucyllysylglutamyltyrosylasparagimylalanyl alanypro-
lylprolylleucylglutaminylglycylphenlalanylglycylis oleyucyls-
erylalanylprolylaspartylglutaminylvalyllysylalanyl alanylisol-
eucylalspartylalanylglycylalanylalanylglycylalanyl asoleucylse-
rylglycylserylalanylisoleucylbalyllysylisoleucylis oleucylgluta-
mylglutaminylhistidylasparaginylisoleucylglutamylp ronylglu-0
tamyllysylmethionylluecylalanylalanyoeucyllysylval ylpheny-
lalanylvalylglutamilylprolylmethionyllysylalanylal anylthreo-
nylarginylserine.

This word is a Tryptophan synthetase A protein, an enzyme that has 267 amino acids, and makes a record of 1,909 letters. It is the term for the formula C1289H2051N343O375S8

Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis is the largest word in the English dictionary.
It is a lung disease caused by breathing in certain particles.

[Bethelarien]

Pippin, you have WAY too much time on your hands!

Elgee, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Granted, I'm only 16, and the big words I use aren't nearly THAT big, but people complain about my writing too. Oh well, they're just stupid.

So what does Machiavellian mean?

[Aulë]

Look before the really big word on my post and you will see:D

[Bethelarien]

Oh. Duh. :o I'm not normally that stupid. ;)

[Rangerdave]

Just to get back on track with the original question...

I see no problem with using a "big" world, so long as it is the proper word to use.

In the case of the word Machivellian, as long as you used this to describe a plan or person with Machivelli like aspects, the choice was a correct one. But if you simply used it as a synonym for ruthless, you made a wrong choice.

My philosophy for writing is simple, never use a big word when a small one will do, but always use a single "BIG" word to replace a discriptive sentence or paragraph.

For example, Why should I discribe a character as "sullen, somber and of few words", when I can simply use the term "laconic."

Also, if your proofreader did not understand the term " Machivellian", you might suggest a dictionary. I understand that they can be quite helpful.

RD

[Kailita]

Aiieee...I hate it when people rag on me for using big words. I say if you have a big vocabulary, then USE it! And if people don't understand what a certain word means, that's what dictionaries are for. :) Just make sure that you're using the word correctly, and I think it should be fine.

[Lantarion]

Haha, it's like in Calvin & Hobbes:

"Don't be so dysfunctional, mom."
:D

[Ol'gaffer]

Or in Seinfeld where that kids' father actually quoted the encyclopedia!

[goldmare]

I agree with you guys. A large vocabulary is something to strive for and be proud of, not to ignore or complain about. If the person reading your work doesn't know what the word means and you used it the correct way, then that's their problem. (Besides, people think you're so smart if you use big words, hehe).

I don't know if anyone else has heard this phrase, but I think this is a classic example of what Rush Limbaugh calls "the dumbing down of America." People keep setting lower standards for students and thus smart people are made uncomfortable because of their intelligence, and...ok I'll stop now.

[HLGStrider]

Si. . . though I hope bringing Mr Limbaugh into this doesn't turn this conversation political. . .he he

[j0n4th4n]

oh elgee, you are so beautiful. . .to me ( just so you dont get stuck up about it);)

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by goldmare

I don't know if anyone else has heard this phrase, but I think this is a classic example of what Rush Limbaugh calls "the dumbing down of America." People keep setting lower standards for students and thus smart people are made uncomfortable because of their intelligence, and...ok I'll stop now.


If I recall correctly, the Professor, nor the school, had any problems whatsoever with her choice of words. It was a fellow student who objected to a "big word."

This is by no means an example of "dumbing down" anything, but rather one student too lazy to use a dictionary. I feel fairly confident that said students gpa will reflect this sort or intellectual slugishness.

RD

[HLGStrider]

The direct statement was something like,
"You might want to explain the term in your text. I recently became acquainted with the word, but most people don't know what it means."

Something like that.

If she'd just said "I don't know what it means." I would've taken it as her ignorance, but she brought it up as a point of good writing. . . that's why the discussion.

[Eriol]

I hope you will not follow the student's advice... It is quite against the spirit of most styles, with the exception of textbooks and such, to offer definitions of words (as opposed to definitions of concepts). Impoverishing the language to cater for the lazy people who do not want to use the dictionary (The Father of the Ignorants, as we call it here) is terrible.

By the way, I believe the word is "Machiavellian"... with an "a" after the first "i"

[HLGStrider]

Yeah. . . it might be. . .

Oh well.

[goldmare]

I concede. This situation does not EXACTLY illustrate the "dumbing down of America," although I still think it does, in a way. Think about it: Elgee writes a paper with a big word in it, the person editing it thinks (probably correctly) that most people will not know what it means, so she asks Elgee to change her work to compensate for other people's obtuseness.

It's obvious that if, as the student said, most people don't know the meaning of "Machiavellian," there has been a general decline of vocabulary in today's world. I guess that just reminded me of Limbaugh's phrase. But look around and you will see all kinds of examples of America's "dumbing down," most of them subtle because it has happened over time.

[Eledhwen]

JRR Tolkien said (paraphrase) that a child does not improve their language skills by reading books that match their age, but by reading beyond it.

[7doubles]

some words are just to pompus, by making you look like you try to make yourself sound smarter by using not so much a "big" word but a word wich is not a popular term and comes off as a snobby aristacratic plead to be agknowlaged as intelagent writer. but thats just my oppinion.

p.s. hi Strider;)

[HLGStrider]

Here is the quote Eld is refering to:


"A good vocabulary is not acquired by reading books written according to some notion of the vocabulary of one's age-group. It comes of reading books above one."
J.R.R. Tolkien.

Now in life I have gained a reputation of being "literary." At work whenever they put up an announcment, Joana has me spell check it. I am the first person consulted whenever there is a tough word to be spelt, and I am consulted on word meanings more than the office dictionary.

In other words, my vocabulary is a point of pride and I used to throw in big words to show off. Now that I am writing for my own pleasure, I use what sounds best, what comes naturally, rather than what sounds impressive.

BUT THE MORE WORDS YOU HAVE AT YOUR FINGERTIPS THE BETTER!

[Hammersmith]

At college level, I would assume that most people would be familiar with both Machiavelli and the term attached to his name. Provided it was used in context, I shouldn't imagine it would be too hard to understand. Any chance we could see the paragraph or sentence in which it was included?

[Barliman Butterbur]

...on one of my reviews (a person did of mine) they complained that I'd used the word Machivellian and hadn't explained it.

Is it a bad idea to use big words in your writing? I thought Machivellian would be fine.

....when does writing for your audience cease and dumbing things down for dumbies start?

It's not so much a matter of size, it's a matter of precision (and eventually, one hopes): elegance, effectiveness and style. Use whatever word gives the exact meaning and exact shading that you intend. Use the word that says exactly what you mean. It's up to the reader to either run to the dictionary or stay ignorant. Don't dumb things down for the dummies, that's just what they want! To grow means to struggle and to put forth effort. Don't cater to laziness!

It has been proven countless times that there is a close relationship between the size of one's functional vocabulary and intelligence.

Barley

[Barliman Butterbur]

...I think this is a classic example of what Rush Limbaugh calls "the dumbing down of America."

Flush (oh, excuse me, I meant "Rush" ;) ) must have just discovered what's going on even though he is a major contributor to the process.

The late Steve Allen saw dumbing-down going on as far back as 50 years ago. He wrote a book about it called "Dumbth" And 81 Ways to Make Americans Smarter. It should be in the hands of every teacher and student in America, starting in the third grade.

I had a link right to the book at Amazon, but it didn't work. So go to www.amazon.com/, and write DUMBTH in the search field.

Barley

[Annaheru]

As a prolific reader from a young age I have also 'taken grief' from others when I use words they aren't familiar with, but the trouble lies with them. In most cases they don't read often or deeply. Much of my vocabulary was learned from the context of what I was reading. If it's the same with you, than you probably have a very good idea of the correct situation for using a word. Go ahead.

O, and Barley, since the dumb americans don't read anymore, Rush is simply carrying the torch in a newer field. . . although it might be time to simply have the tv say: "You are dumber than your parents, who are dumber than your grandparents, who. . .". Even though that infernal little box is 75% of the problem. . .:rolleyes: :mad:

[Zale]

It has been proven countless times that there is a close relationship between the size of one's functional vocabulary and intelligence.

Barley

Evidence? I'd rather say that there is a close link between functional vocabulary and EDUCATION.

Anyway: the important thing is to know the exact right word to use to get your point across, no matter its length. People are often surprised because I'm an extremely wordy physicist, and they weren't expecting it :)

[Barliman Butterbur]

Evidence? I'd rather say that there is a close link between functional vocabulary and EDUCATION.

Anyway: the important thing is to know the exact right word to use to get your point across, no matter its length. People are often surprised because I'm an extremely wordy physicist, and they weren't expecting it :)

Your evidence, sir: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=vocabulary+correlate+intelligence

You may pick and choose among the daisies and the daffodils as you will! ;) But your point is taken: Education does generally lead to a larger functional vocabulary. What I said in my previous post presupposed (without being clear about it) that a large functional vocabulary is usually the byproduct of education, or at least genuine learning whether formal or informal.

(I remember one fellow I knew from high school who thought the more big words he knew, the more impressive he would be. So he learned a lot of them and proceeded simply to prove that he was a pretentious jerk who could spout a lot of big words with nothing but emptiness behind it all.)

Barley

[HLGStrider]

I don't know if I kept the paper. I remember the topic, but it was a long time ago that I even started this thread and two years ago that I wrote the paper. I don't keep anything that long unless I think it is really, really good, and I wasn't interested enough in the topic for this to be included in it.

[e.Blackstar]

I use big words a lot, but I don't generally even notice. Most of the words are everyday use for me and actually rather short but everyone else is like "huh?"

[Zale]

@ Barley: fair enough! Being a physicist it irks (another great word) me severely when people claim "proof" with no support or justification.

Not that statistics are proof anyway :D

[Barliman Butterbur]

@ Barley: fair enough! Being a physicist it irks (another great word) me severely when people claim "proof" with no support or justification.


I agree! Just like Fox News...

Barley