WWII and the Kicking of Japan!

[Aragorn21]

OK here's the thread for Japan WWII talks!

[Arvedui]

What's your first topic?

[Anamatar IV]

Mmmm scary stuff with Japan. Two days and two bombs and they're out. Really demonstrates the power of the Nuclear bombs. Did America really need to drop them on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? From my reading I see that American forces had already been carpet bombing Japan with B-29's. Why couldn't we do the same with Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

[FREEDOM!]

THe reason they dropped the Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was, the Japanese dictator (ruler, whatever) was not going too stop attacking us until he had several civillian casualties on his hands. This guy needed to be dealt with, i mean come on, he attacked Pearl Harbor, when we didn't provoke him or anything.

[Anamatar IV]

But Why an Atomic Bomb is what I asked. America had been successful with Air raids all throughout the war. Why did we have to drop a bomb more powerful than 20, 000 TONS of TNT? You say Japan needed a few civilians to die to surrender. In Hiroshima about 145, 000 civilians died. In Nagasaki I think the number was well into the 200, 000's. That is not a few. A few would be a single AVERAGE bomb landing in civilian land, injuring a dozen, killing 3 or 4, and wrecking a few houses. That ON TOP of carpet bombings with "Mr. B."

The Japanese only bombed us once. They didn't "keep attacking us." If you had said the Japanese would not give the hopeless war up until then I would partially agree with you.

But moreover, the Nazi's had already surrendered the war! Japan had no allies! It was the world against them! Sooner or later they would have surrendered. Why did we need to drop a bomb a week after Hitler commited suicide and Germany surrendered?

[TheFool]

Originally posted by FREEDOM!
THe reason they dropped the Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was, the Japanese dictator (ruler, whatever) was not going too stop attacking us until he had several civillian casualties on his hands. This guy needed to be dealt with, i mean come on, he attacked Pearl Harbor, when we didn't provoke him or anything.
FREEDOM you should, seriously, investigate events more before you make posts like this. What you have said is not true. If you are unsure of something, you could pose it as a question instead of stating it as a fact.

There has been a related debate, in the 'Ethics Of Nuclear Warfare' thread.

[Samweis]

Is it a coincidence, that Soviet Union declared Japan war on the 8th of August 1945, two days after the nuclear bomb had destroyed Hiroshima and one day before another nuclear bomb was dropped on Nagasaki?

[Arvedui]

I don't believe that was a coincidence. It was IMO, Stalin who wanted to gain a lot of acres of land, and also to have an excuse to sit at the table when dictating the peace terms with Japan. I believe the background for this can be found in the Japan/Russia war in 1905, when Japan defeated the Russian Pacific Navy, and occupied the Sakhalin Penninsula. Stalin of course wanted to get it back on Soviet hands.

[FREEDOM!]

Actually i looked up the number of those killed by the atomic bombs and it was 90,000 in Hiroshima and 40,000 in Nagasaki.

[Inderjit S]

How can we be sure of the numbers of people that died? Censorship was and is common.

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by FREEDOM!
Actually i looked up the number of those killed by the atomic bombs and it was 90,000 in Hiroshima and 40,000 in Nagasaki.

Not even close. In Hiroshima it is a known fact that well over a hundred thousand died. I got the 145, 000 from a documentary on the History channel. In Nagasaki a Plutonium bomb was dropped and it was WAY more powerful than the Uranium one dropped in Hiroshima. Thus, we know it is impossible that the bomb would have killed such a small portion of the people of Nagasaki. Whereas on that same documentary I heard that in the Atomic bombing of Japan over 250, 000 people were killed we have to believe that in Nagasaki OVER 155, 000 people died.

[Samweis]

Why dropped the USA one day after the war declaration of the Soviet Union the second bomb above Nagasaki?

Was it for a fast end of WWII in Asia or was it a "signal" for the Soviet Union?

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Samweis
Why dropped the USA one day after the war declaration of the Soviet Union the second bomb above Nagasaki?

Was it for a fast end of WWII in Asia or was it a "signal" for the Soviet Union?

I think that's more or less a coincidence, dropping a nuclear weapon at the time was nothing close to pressing a button. I can hardly believe the US would have been capable of dropping these things immediatly the day after Stalin declared war on Japan. Unless they saw it coming that is.
But I do think the use of these weapons was also a warning towards the Sovjet Union (especially the second one) then the only way to bring Japan to surrender.
And the casual rate maybe hard to estimate, but not entirely impossible. The population of these cities at the time will be known, the place was heavily photographed, especially after the blast and it shouldn't be that hard to make a serious assesment then. I find it hard to believe that both 40,000 and 150,000 are mentioned as firm numbers.

[Samweis]

I heard somewhere, that the second nuclear bomb should had been dropped over Kyoto instead of Nagasaki. The weather over Kyoto was to bad, so the bomber had to swerve to the "second" chosen city - Nagasaki.

[Anamatar IV]

DGoeij, it seems all numbers will be different but from what I think it a very reliable source (historychannel.com) I have gotten this:

Hiroshima: 90% of all buildings were leveled. at least 130, 000 people were killed or missing.

Nagasaki: over 33% of all buildings were leveled. At least 75, 000 people were killed or missing.

So I was wrong with my assumption that the more powerful one dropped in Nagasaki caused more casualties.

Samweis: Where did you hear this? I am intrigued by this because I remember reading in a book that most of Japan's important cities had already been torn apart by B-29 air raids and that Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the last two major cities left to bomb (please note that I say major. Major being like the equivelant of New York in the United States).

[Samweis]

Dear Anamatar IV,

I did a little investigation - I have to correct my previous post.

Kyoto was the first choice for any nuclear bomb, but was excluded from the target list in may 1945. The second bomb should had been dropped over Kokura, but the target was changed to Nagasaki because of bad weather.

The "target" Nagasaki had a disadvantages for the nuclear bomb: mountains in the city. So the were not so much victims as in Hiroshima.


Nuclear Bomb Chronology (http://www.ask.ne.jp/~hankaku/english/np7y.html)

[Arvedui]

They picked targets mainly for the military/industrial value, not to get the highest possible body count. The point was to make as much damage as possible to the industry, which they obviously did.:rolleyes:
Kyoto was removed from the bombing-list because it was also a religious centre, with a lot of temples and such.

[Aragorn21]

Man I look away and this thread has 2 pages already :rolleyes: .

Anyway, I don't even think that second atomic bomb had to be dropped. With the first blast Japan was scared out of their slippers, and I do believe they would have surendered even if we hadn't dropped the other. But, we almost made up for the horrible devestation we incured. After the war we sent people over there to help build up the ruined Japan, and treated people against the radiation we caused. So in a way we almost made up for the damage we caused.

Hey does anyone know what happened to the crew of the B-29 who dopped the first nuke?

[Húrin Thalion]

Can you make up for so many, or indeed any murders. I would say no but that is a moral question. Secondly there was no point of dropping them on japanese industries since they had no raw materials and the U.S.A knew that. They were dropped for retaliation and becuase: "If the taxpayers had payed the bomb, why not use it when we ahve a chance?" Murder.

[Arvedui]

First of all: it was not the USA who started that war! Terefore, they did not choose to start the massmurder that WWII was.
Second, the first and foremost concern of the President of the USA are the lives and wellbeing of the citizens of USA, just as the first and foremost concern of Göran Persson are the lives and wellbeing of Swedish citizens.
By dropping the to A-bombs, President Truman saved a lot of US lives. Japan was not willing to accept the peace-terms at that time, and the alternative to dropping the A-bombs would have been an invasion of Japan. Would that cause the loss of less lifes? Noone will know, but at least more US soldiers would have died.

[Aragorn21]

Can you make up for so many, or indeed any murders. I would say no but that is a moral question. Secondly there was no point of dropping them on japanese industries since they had no raw materials and the U.S.A knew that. They were dropped for retaliation and becuase: "If the taxpayers had payed the bomb, why not use it when we ahve a chance?" Murder. Hmmm... I wonder what we did after that??? Obviously you didn't read my earlier post. Yes many innocent people died. BUT! who went over to Japan after the war and saved many lives, helped rebuild the war torn Japan, and gave food to the starving people... hmm... I don't remember who it was, can you tell me please??

[Arvedui]

Maybe he thinks it was Stalin? Or perhaps the NKVD?

[Aragorn21]

You know he probably does.

[Aragorn21]

Anyone know much about the airwar against Japan?

[TheFool]

Japanese air power was very much underestimated at the beginning of the war, and they had developed some very advanced aircraft (I think due to the aggressiveness of the military 'rule' and campaigns in Manchuria ...?). Just as Pearl Harbour was a massive shock to the Americans, the sinking of two 'mighty' British battleships (Prince of Wales & Repulse) by Japanese aircraft on 11th Dec 1941 would have been the same to the British people, had they been told about it...

[Aragorn21]

Indeed, and you know the scariest thing about the Japanese pilots was they didn't care for their lives, thus risking everything to kill.

[Aragorn21]

Has anyone here heard of that bomb/plane that was just one big piloted bomb? It was made towards the end of the war for kamikaz runs.