Apocalypse When?

[Morgoth]

This is my new thread. I want the pro-war camp to make themselves known, and give good arguements for war, and I want the anti war camp to argue against them. I think you all know which camp I'm in :D

[Ithrynluin]

If war breaks out, I fear the worst. I fear it will spread.

[Dengen-Goroth]

I think there are a few more options that could've been added. I personally believe that "coalition" forces will not have to great a burden in removing Saddam, I would estimate at most two months worth of action. The real problem comes into play with maintaining peace in Iraq after Saddam. If the casualties won't disturb many, I'm sure the price of this enterprise will (A maximum estimate around 1.8 trillion). And unlike the Gulf War, where nations other then America bore the burden for 88% of the cost (Somewhere around the high eighties), it is estimated that now it will only pay some 5-10% (estimate by George H. W. Bush's Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger).

[Legolam]

I personally believe that a war in Iraq would be short, successful and relatively painless. That's doesn't necessarily make it right though.

[Gloer]

The Book of Revelation:

"13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? "

Who is able to make war with USA?

"13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. "

For Bush 42 months started on the 11th of September 2001. After that incident bush has got away with anything. He has set himself above criticism.

It is only 3 months more than the reminder of his term. I am scared of what happens january 2005.

"13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. "

This has been revealed just recently. Who claims to have God on his side? Who has had claimed monopoly for righteus cause?

"13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. "

All churches have denounced claims for just war. Allies and enemies alike have protested dictatorial foreign policy in vain. Bush will conquer his enemies and win.

"13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. "

There will be no liberty or right for cricism after the ultimate victory. The world will then have to obey US presidential dictatorship. Americans will re-elect Bush, no one dares to oppose him.


"13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. "

[Gloer]

"17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. "

This means the UN resolution will get 10 votes granting US president dictatorship over the world.

Why is this happening?

"17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. "

This whore is "terrorism". We hate it. We will reveal it all the way. We will rip terrorists from their privasy and humanity.

"17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. "

Well it is God's will that we aid Bush in his fight against terror until all terror organisations are destroyed and new ones impossible to create.

"17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. "

New York and Wall Street markets reign over all politicians and governments.

We are doomed.

[Gloer]

that is only 3 and half years til June.

:eek:

But it seems that Bush really was granted bestial powers only after 9/11/2001. This give us until the Idus of March 2005.

:confused:

[Parrot]

Your whole poll is based on a false dichotomy; the assumption that one must be clearly pro or anti war with no middle ground to be found. The most constructive debates are going to be between those who are somewhere in the middle and actually trying to weigh the alteratives, rather than between presupposed extremists engaging in yet another partisan rock-fight. :rolleyes: *yawn*

[Gandalf White]

Wow, Gloer I haven't laughed so hard in ages. :D Thanks for the comic relief to lighten things up!

[Eledhwen]

Gloer, If this is the end of the end times as written in the Book of Revelation, and if that prophetic book is right, then what will be will be. God already knows what Bush will decide to do. (By the way, are you saying George Bush is the Antichrist? You've quoted a lot of Bible verses but have not told us what event each verse equates to).

This is the Tolkien Forum, right? So let's compare with Tolkien. When Sauron (the Necromancer) was building up Dol Guldur, Saruman counselled against action - for his own reasons. By the time action was taken, Sauron had grown to a strength that no alliance could overthrow.

All a tinpot dictator needs to cow the great forces of the world is a means of killing vast numbers of people with one bomb and a delivery vehicle. Once that is in place, the balance of power tips in favour of the one who does not care how many people are killed on either side.

[Parrot]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
Gloer, If this is the end of the end times as written in the Book of Revelation, and if that prophetic book is right, then what will be will be. God already knows what Bush will decide to do. (By the way, are you saying George Bush is the Antichrist? You've quoted a lot of Bible verses but have not told us what event each verse equates to).

This is the Tolkien Forum, right? So let's compare with Tolkien. When Sauron (the Necromancer) was building up Dol Guldur, Saruman counselled against action - for his own reasons. By the time action was taken, Sauron had grown to a strength that no alliance could overthrow.

All a tinpot dictator needs to cow the great forces of the world is a means of killing vast numbers of people with one bomb and a delivery vehicle. Once that is in place, the balance of power tips in favour of the one who does not care how many people are killed on either side.

Excellent post Eledhwen. In regards to your last point, I would add that I have a major difficulty getting my mind around how some people see the North Korea situation as an argument against action on Iraq. North Korea demands attention, yes - but it would seem better to be proactive in dealing with nuclear threats rather than being over the barrel in the way KJ IL has us.

With every "tinpot dictator" we allow to gain nuclear capability, we take one more step from the unthinkable and towards the inevitable.

[Lossengondiel]

Being only fifteen years old, I don't know how the world really works, but I do know that there will be many casualties, and since Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, I fear there might be worse to happen

[Húrin Thalion]

Well, since this is a Tolkien forum, let us look at it the other way. Fëanor thought himself great and led his people to war against Morgoth (For Saddam is certainly more like Morgoth than Bush is) but thought himself greater than he was. The Angels (My beloved Europe) and elder ones would not support him and he did wrong and violated the laws of the world (the UN) and slayed many innocents. Fëanor was a fool and saw himself as great but he was destroyed by his own pride. Or compare this to Gilgamesh, King of Ur.

Húrin Thalion

EDIT: I am also young but I say what I think and hope that no one is as low as discrediting my arguments because of my age. Say what you want and if you can provide arguments for it you will be taken seriously!

[Eledhwen]

A good post, Hurin. However, it requires the reader to agree with your comparisons (eg: Europe = Angels). And as for Saddam being Morgoth and not Bush; Morgoth won his best battles at the beginning by poisoning minds with whispered, apparently reasonable words. And as for the "Laws of the World" coming from the UN - I don't even know who they are! Does anyone here know the name or credentials of their country's UN representative(s)?

[Wolfshead]

It is my opinion that war with Iraq would be swift. 2 months at most. Removing Saddam would not be too difficult, intensive bombing on selected targets, trying to avoid unnecessay civilian casualities where possible, and ground troops moving in to secure locations afterwards.

However, the rebuilding of Iraq afterwards would be the difficult part. How would you decide between what's best for the people, and what's best for the oil companies (that damned cynicism again)? The rehabilitation of Iraq would have to be run by the UN, and they would have to stay there for a long time.

[Húrin Thalion]

The problem is that bombing strikes would cause amny civilian casualties and that is according to the laws of war be illegal. Moreover ground troops would not simply "move in", that would not be a walk in the park. Sure, the Iraqi army has no chance on the open ground, but what would happen in for example Bagdad? Without American air support, surveillance adn overview the fighting would be fierce. Bagdad is still a city filled with civilians, many of these would die in an eventual dogged fight between hosue and house. Sure, the American soldiers are better trained and equipped but this difference would be erased in CQB. Too much blood would be shed, I fear.

Húrin Thalion

[Gandalf White]

The problem is that bombing strikes would cause amny civilian casualties and that is according to the laws of war be illegal. Purposeful bombing of civilians is illegal. However in every war there are civ. casualties, so several in Iraq wouldn't be illegal.:rolleyes: Sure, the American soldiers are better trained and equipped but this difference would be erased in CQB. Actually, I believe American troops are better trained in CQB as well.

[Húrin Thalion]

Yes they are, much more well trained BUT that difference is as said erased. In that kind of warfare enormous amounts of different situations may accure and the defender always has the advantage. I can't look up the quote right now but bombings that kill civilians are illegal.

Húrin Thalion

[Wolfshead]

Originally posted by Húrin Thalion
Too much blood would be shed, I fear. The attacks would be planned to avoid as many civilian casualties as possible, however, it's a fact of war that people die. People who may not have died otherwise. War is not supposed to be a pleasant country walk, people do die, and nothing we can say or do in a war can prevent that. It is best just to cut them down to a few innocent people as possible.

[Gloer]

This is chattering. I thought that you would take my message seriously. I thought there are Christians reading this board.

Bush is clearly thinking that he is fulfilling a mission God has set him forth to do. But that is the mission of The Beast who is granted the omnipotent power to fight the whore of terror.

Order will replace freedom of choice.

We are doomed.

[faila]

The war will be over in a month, sadam will be dead, we wil controll iraq for a time, then set it free with a republic. We will no longer fear iraq as an enemy, and we will be able to sleep at night, knowing we have one less enemy to worry about.
And gloer what you just said made no sense. Bush feels that what he does is what is best for the american people, and that is the decision he makes.

[Eliot]

Bush as the anti-christ??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Gandalf White]

Laughable, isn't it? :D :p

[Gloer]

And the primary target is the born again christians. I think Bush is himself in close relationship with them.

There is always an interpretation or two to The Revelation that are applicable with a current world crisis.

What is interesting though is that evil is the strongest party in every way among us humans. But might does not make right in the bible ending.

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Gandalf White
Laughable, isn't it? :D :p

Very much so. :D :)

[Morgoth]

Not so laughable in my humble opinion. You wouldnt find it so amusing if that actually happened, would you. Let's face it, Bush has WoMD, and to be quite honest, if the time came when he had to use them, even to protect America, he wouldn't back down and say "We are proceeding with nuclear disarmament because country x feels threatened, and is readying it's nuclear arsenal. We hope this gesture will encourage country x to disarm as well." There isn't a hope in hell of that speech ever being made by Dubya, he would sooner have his country in a nuclear winter than back down. And why should he? After all, he (and the US government since George Bush I) has spent several trillion dollars making sure that all fear the Great Satan.
Also, people using the term 'pre-emptive strike' annoys me. If N. Korea attacked America, that could be claimed as a pre-emptive strike. So what gives America the divine right to be the only nation on Earth to indulge in pre-emptive strikes? And I fear that if Bush did turn his attention to N. Korea, a pre-emptive strike might be coming America's way.

[Gandalf White]

Not so laughable in my humble opinion. You wouldnt find it so amusing if that actually happened, would you. No I wouldn't. But seeing as it is not going to happen that way I do find it amusing, in quaint way.
Let's face it, Bush has WoMD, and to be quite honest, if the time came when he had to use them, even to protect America, he wouldn't back down and say "We are proceeding with nuclear disarmament because country x feels threatened, and is readying it's nuclear arsenal. We hope this gesture will encourage country x to disarm as well." What a joke!:rolleyes: Yeah, we are disarming so 'country x' can use their weapons against us without us being able to retaliate. Brilliant logic! :rolleyes: I am so glad "Dubya" would not ever make that speech.
Also, people using the term 'pre-emptive strike' annoys me. If N. Korea attacked America, that could be claimed as a pre-emptive strike. So what gives America the divine right to be the only nation on Earth to indulge in pre-emptive strikes? And I fear that if Bush did turn his attention to N. Korea, a pre-emptive strike might be coming America's way. Actually, if you remember 1967, Israel ordered preemptive strikes. Also, I think because of Korea's greater threat the UN might get off it's rear end and do something this time!:eek:

[Morgoth]

Actually, if you remember 1967, Israel ordered preemptive strikes
Don't get me started on Israel. You'll have trouble stopping me.
Yeah, we are disarming so 'country x' can use their weapons against us without us being able to retaliate
If you had no weapons, there wouldn't be quote unquoute rogue states feeling threatened by the Great Satan.

[Gloer]

Armageddon and why Bush, born-again Christians and USA have the role of The Beast or anti-christ.

" As said in the beginning, Armageddon is the battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil. If the battle is to be fought, who are the good guys? Is Russia? No. Is it the United States? Certainly no. Is it Israel? No. There is none good, no not one. Again, the Scriptures say, "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." (Revelation 17:14, KJV). Simply stated, the Lamb is the good one. He is the one the whole world is gathered against.

This is the real Armageddon. It is the battle not involving the East and the West or the Christians and the Muslims. It is the battle between all of these evil forces and God. The whole earth is arrayed against Him, but He will overcome them. How does He overcome them? He sadly lets them go ahead and blow themselves up with the Armageddon they so desperately want. This is that "strange" act we have read about. For centuries He has been saving our necks while interceding for us. That has been His normal act, but now He will do His strange act and let us do ourselves in. All those wonderful dreams of temples and glory will all go up in a grand radioactive smoke. I wonder what the T.V. evangelists will say in that day. I guess there won't be any. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." (2 Peter 3:10, KJV)."


True Christian can not take sides in this war. Evil will is so intensely present on both sides.

[Gloer]

That quote was from here. Written in 1997. Long before the current Bush regime.

http://thewinds.arcsnet.net/arc_editorials/war/armageddon12-97.html

[Morgoth]

hmmm. interesting.

[Gandalf White]

It would be totally stupid to disarm. The world would then be ruled by people like Saddam. Think about it.
True Christian can not take sides in this war. Evil will is so intensely present on both sides. Sorry, Gloer, that's not true. America is fighting for the right cause here. And please remember, before the actual end times start, Israel will sign a 7-year peace treaty. That hasn't happened yet.

[Gloer]

and you don't know it?

Came like a thief?

[Morgoth]

America is not completely fighting for the right cause. If they are fighting on a moral basis, then why did it take them so long to come up with the 'morality' arguement? I just don't trust Dubya and his Dad's cronies: Rummy, Colin and ****.
And with a fascist scumbag like Sharon *spits at the name* in charge, the likelihood of a peace treaty anytime soon is remote. So are you telling me that if 'person X' decides to use nukes, they are going to be stopped because it doesn't comply with the Armageddon 'rules'.

[Morgoth]

Oh. It asterisked out the man known as Richard Cheney. Odd.:D

[Gandalf White]

Oh. It asterisked out the man known as Richard Cheney. Odd. lol, very odd indeed! :eek: :D
America is not completely fighting for the right cause. If they are fighting on a moral basis, then why did it take them so long to come up with the 'morality' arguement What are you talking about, morality argument. What's that? We are fighting because an insane tyrant has chemical and bio weapons, and is trying to go nuclear. Period.

[Morgoth]

The morality arguement is the 'Saddam is a evil genocidal killer' arguement in British terms. That's what my country is supposedly going to war for. I thought that the WoMD arguement was going down the pan because of Saddam, well, disarming.

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Morgoth
The morality arguement is the 'Saddam is a evil genocidal killer' arguement in British terms. That's what my country is supposedly going to war for. I thought that the WoMD arguement was going down the pan because of Saddam, well, disarming. In the good ol' US of A it's still about the weapons. And as to Saddam disarming. . . . . All he's gotten rid of are some of his missiles. I don't know (and seriously doubt) if he has started on his unmanned drones, and where is he hiding those chemical weapons that he keeps threatening us with?

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Morgoth
If you had no weapons, there wouldn't be quote unquoute rogue states feeling threatened by the Great Satan.

If we had no "WoMD", there wouldn't be a free world. It would be ruled by some crazy Chinese and Russian dictators. If we ever announced that we were laying down our nuclear weapons, the US and Europe's biggest citys would be wiped off the map my communist nukes. They would destroy us as fast as they could. I don't believe the Chinese or Russians are allies of the US at all.

I don't think the Russian Federation is Democratic at all. If Putin is a former KJB agent, then Russia is the USSR with a different name.

Originally posted by Gandalf White
Sorry, Gloer, that's not true. America is fighting for the right cause here. And please remember, before the actual end times start, Israel will sign a 7-year peace treaty. That hasn't happened yet.

Also, before Israel signs that treaty, all the Christians will be taken up to Heaven in the rapture. People will panic, and the world will go in chaos. If GW Bush is a Christian, then he won't be here for WW III (Armageddon). Because of all this, the anti-christ will jump for the oppurtunity, and the world will unite in one, and will lay down all their differences. That's what would make a peace treaty in Israel possible.

[Gloer]

Oslo Accord was signed 1 November 1993

Seven years after that...

On September 28, 2000, Likud leader Ariel Sharon went to visit the Temple Mount – Judaism’s holiest place, which Muslims have renamed Haram al-Sharif and regard as Islam’s third holiest place. Since that time, Palestinians have engaged in a violent insurrection that has been dubbed the "al-Aksa intifada."


So there you have it!


But i would first like to see an authoritative quote that verifies that there should be seven years of peace in Israel at some stage.

[Eliot]

It's in the book of Revelation, in the Bible. I'll just have to find it for you, I've read it before. But, it IS a big book, so it might take a while. Just wait.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Eliot
Also, before Israel signs that treaty, all the Christians will be taken up to Heaven in the rapture. People will panic, and the world will go in chaos. If GW Bush is a Christian, then he won't be here for WW III (Armageddon). Because of all this, the anti-christ will jump for the oppurtunity, and the world will unite in one, and will lay down all their differences. That's what would make a peace treaty in Israel possible.

Oy! I think we've been reading too much "Left Behind".
Dispensationalsim (which most of you are spouting right now) has so many holes in its interpretation and yet so many are taking it all as fact. "Left Behind" isn't helping either by mixing horrific inventions and warped bible intepretation of a symbolic book, then you add in Hollywood effects to the movies and now its the absolute truth.

There is no biblical proof to the events you are saying Eliot, nevermind the order in which you say they'll occur. And the events that precede Armageddon (all of Revelation 16) are the plagues that are poured out on the wicked of this earth right before Christ comes a second time. These plagues occur when all "hell" is breaking loose on the earth and not in our casual lifetime. This is when all know that Christ is coming and our fates are now determined. It will be chaos. Armageddon is just the finality of these plagues. Whether Israel is part of this or not is pure speculation and nothing more.
It's in the book of Revelation, in the Bible. I'll just have to find it for you, I've read it before. But, it IS a big book, so it might take a while. Just wait.
The seven years of the dispensationist thinking comes from a gross misinterpretation of Daniel 9:26,27. Where a prophetic day equals a literal year. What dispensationalists neglect, is that this prophecy applies to Christ and was fulfilled at his death. How they apply it to Israel in the last days is beyond me, and yet everyone swallows it as truth.

[Morgoth]

It would be ruled by some crazy Chinese and Russian dictators
What makes you think that?
the US and Europe's biggest citys would be wiped off the map my communist nukes
Let me remind you that the USA was the first country with nukes, and the USSR only developed them to try and keep up with the USA

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Thorin
Oy! I think we've been reading too much "Left Behind". ...
The seven years of the dispensationist thinking comes from a gross misinterpretation of Daniel 9:26,27.

Um, you jump to conclusions a little bit too much. I've never read those books, never will. I've got a Bible for all that stuff.

I was too busy to correct my statement. I've been busy ALL day.

Just wait. I'll be ready to put up my "proof" when I'm done being busy. :rolleyes:

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Morgoth
What makes you think that?

Let me remind you that the USA was the first country with nukes, and the USSR only developed them to try and keep up with the USA

And now, they have enough to destroy us (America), and our allies. But, this would only happen if we announced that we were laying down our nuclear weapons. You obviously didn't read the whole post.

[Gandalf White]

Let me remind you that the USA was the first country with nukes, and the USSR only developed them to try and keep up with the USA Ah, so you seriously believe that America is the cause of Nuclear weapons and our trouble's today. Incredible. :rolleyes:
Do you seriously think that Russia or China wouldn't eventually have figured it out, and then we'd have to keep up with them?

[Eliot]

Since explaining some parts of the Bible is a hard thing to do, I'll just qoute some words from a book by John F. Walvoord. It's title is "Armageddon, Oil, and the Middle-east Crisis". This author is a scholar, and can explain it better then I can. I'm not surprised if you don't believe this. "I don't believe this is happening" is all everybody will be saying when this happens anyway.

Chapter 12: A Coming World Dictator, section (or paragraph, whatever) 9

Daniel's prophecy provides the key to the entire drama of the last days. The new Mediterreanean leader will cause a series of world-shattering events, which are described in detail by Daniel and the writer of the book of Revelation. Jesus identified this man as the final military conquerer who would invade Jerusalem and desecrate the temple, "The Abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel" (Matt. 24:15). Jesus' reference to this event added another important piece to the prophetic puzzle.

In Daniel 9:24-27 the prophet recorded a revelation of seventy "sevens" of years, actually 490 years, in which great events would take place in relation to Jerusalem and the Jewish people. The first two major time segments involved 483 years, or sixty-nine "sevens". The word translated "week" (KJV) actually means "seven" and refers to years, not days. This period was described by Daniel in these words:

"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens," and sixty-two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but it times of trouble. After the sixty-two "sevens," the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed'" (Dan. 9:25-26)

The first segment of Daniel's seventy weeks began with the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, the decree given to Nehemiah in 445 B.C. The first seven weeks, or forty-nine years, marked the time needed to rebuild Jerusalem. The second segment of sixty-two weeks of years (434 years) marked the time that would pass until the Messiah was cut off. Adding these two segments reveals the amazing accuracy of Daniel's prophecy; the 483 years ended just before Jesus was rejected by the nation of Israel and crucified. Latest scholarship indicates this was in A.D. 33.

But one week of seven years is still left unfulfilled. The "people of the ruler who will come" (Dan. 9:26), referring to the Roman army of that day, did come and destroy the city and the temple, as predicted, in A.D. 70. But the future prince, the ruler of the revived Roman Empire, will fulfill his prophetic destiny during the last seven years to come. The new Mediterranean leader will be "the prince that shall come" (Dan. 9:26 KJV), or "the Anointed One. . . the ruler" (Dan. 9:26). He will seize control of the Mediterranean Confederacy of ten nations. With that power consolidated, he will then make his next decisive move. He will negotiate a peace covenant, guaranteeing Israel's security and bringing peace to the Middle-east. According to Daniel, this important move will begin the last seven years of the predicted 490 years. It will be, in fact, the last seven years of world history before Armageddon and the second coming of Christ.

“’He will confirm a covenant with many for one “seven.” In the middle of the “seven” he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him’” (Dan. 9:27)

The Mediterranean leader will move from a tactic of peace to a tactic of crushing power. After making peace with Israel, during the first three and a half years he will rule as dictator of the ten-nation Mediterranean Confederacy, keeping his covenant with Israel. In the middle of the seven years he will break his agreement. As noted in the previous chapter, this very possibly will coincide with Russia’s attempt to invade Israel and Russia’s mysterious annihilation. With the world balance of power dramatically in his favor and the world dazzled by Russia’s defeat, the Antichrist will show his true colors. He will declare himself world dictator and move to crush all opposition."

Ok, that's all I have to say. I probably won't post here, since the whole idea of this thread is dumb (no offense to whoever started it).

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Eliot
In Daniel 9:24-27 the prophet recorded a revelation of seventy "sevens" of years, actually 490 years, in which great events would take place in relation to Jerusalem and the Jewish people. The first two major time segments involved 483 years, or sixty-nine "sevens". The word translated "week" (KJV) actually means "seven" and refers to years, not days.

Your first problem is in verse 24: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Jewish nation) and upon they holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end to sins....and to anoint the Most Holy (Messiah - Jesus)"

Hence, the whole 70 week prophecy applies and must be fulfilled in Christ. The actual decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was by Persian king, Artexerxes in 457 B.C. Adding the 70 weeks takes us to 34 AD. However, it was 69 weeks until Messiah. Christ was baptized in 27 AD and his official work as the Messiah began. In the midst of that week (3.5 years) the Messiah would be cut off but not for himself. Jesus was crucified in 31 AD. When Christ was killed, he officially wiped out the sacrificial system the Hebrews and Jews had been following forever. He put an end to the temple service being the High Priest and the sacrificial lamb. After the 70 week prophey, which culminated in Stephen being stoned in 34 AD, the Jews (as a nation) were no longer part of God's plan, and the message went to the Gentiles en mass.

To take the last week and throw it into the last days mellenia later than when the prophecy was given is to ignore the context of the chapter. It was to determine to the Jews that they had a probation to accept the salvation offered through the Messiah that would come.

There is no mention or correlation between this prophecy and the antichrist of Revelation. Daniel 7, Matthew 24 and Revelation 13 are linked together. However, Daniel 9 does not come into play in the last days at all.

[Eliot]

Ok, I admit I don't have much to back any of that up. So, as any bold man would do, I'll admit that I've lost a debate (yes, once again). :D :D

Nobody knows EXACTLY what will happen, so it's useless to debate it out.

[Morgoth]

I think the nuclear weapons arguement should be given up, because neither side has conclusive proof of what would happen in such an event.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Eliot
Nobody knows EXACTLY what will happen, so it's useless to debate it out.

Much of it is speculation on both parts, yes. However, Tim LaHaye is passing off his futuristic, Hollywood dosed, conspiracy theoretical, Biblically misinterpreted claptrap as if it was directly given by God Himself. It doesn't help when he has a gullible, entertainment driven, Biblically starved public out there to soak it up like a sponge.

Most people should study end time events for themselves and compare ideas of different denominations rather than suck up the first one like "Left Behind" which is nothing more than fictional spiritual junk food.

[Jesse]

I picked A full on firefight with many coalition casualties occurs. My belief is this war will result in severe casualties, both civilian and militarily. Mostly civilian. THERE are still civilians in Iraq who refused to leave Baghdad. It's just sad we have to in the name of freedom....:( :( :(

[Morgoth]

I have been absent from the forum for some time, a direct result of the war, and have been tuned into 24 hour news. However, in my absence I have missed the rising of the C9 project. I am extremely glad to see it get off the ground, especially because at some point, it was nearly abandoned. I would like to heartily thank all those who were responsible in starting it up again. As for the war, none of the options I gave fitted it precisely (sp?) but the one with the surgical strikes, I believe was the correct one. Also, despite being anti-war, I would like to congratulate the troops of the Coalition on a clean(ish) war, and express my sympathy for their fallen comrades. R.I.P. all those that made the ultimate sacrifice to free Iraq from an undeniably evil man.

[Gandalf White]

Welcome Back Morgoth!!!!! I've been wondering where you've been. Perhaps we shall have some more good debates in the near future! ;)

[Morgoth]

Thank you, Gandalf White. I feel this thread is wearing thin on it's topic, and from now on, I will not post here, as I will be starting a new thread shortly.

[Gandalf White]

VERY thin. It was dead for a month before you just posted. :eek:

[Gil-Galad]

hm...........we shouldn't forget that the last option is still possible...........there is SARS,Bush is going to continue his wars(is he nuts,or he wants to play "Risk"-a very old computer game with soldiers.).So as you can see nothing is sure.

[Gandalf White]

Risk is an even older (and extremely boring) board game.

Unfortunately it was not specified which Christmas we could possibly die before. I mean, we're all going to die before some Christmas. ;)

[Gloer]

This is a doom prediction.
Believe it or not but we all die by the Idus of March 2005!
That is when the 3½ years Bush has as the Anti Christ counting from the 11th of September 2001.

"6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

This is Bush's invincible army conquering all enemies from Afghanistan to Iraq and Korea.

"6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. "

This is the abolishment of the rule of law in international affairs. Instead we see the rule of fear of the violence of the powerful.

"6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. "

This is the collapse of the financial markets. scales are the symbol of markets, not justice. Our economy is worthless without rule of law. Famine and poverty will take over.

"6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. "

The beasts of the earth are the corona virus causing SARS. It is highly contagious and enduring killer. The death rates are now estimated at 10 % of infected instead of the first estimates of 4-5 %. There is no cure nor vaccine and even less time to create one. In fact this virus is likely to infect most of human population within 2 years (until 15th of March 2005, eek!). Just like other influenza epidemics. But 10 % of us die.

And then we have hell on earth? :eek:

[Gandalf White]

Gloer, I really can't tell whether to take you seriously, or whether you are just joking. Perhaps you would be so kind as to tell me plain out. Do you actually believe this, or are you joking?

[Feanorian]

I do not think he is joking, that was very thought out however no man can predict the ways God will bring about the end times to such a degree. IMO

[Gloer]

The book of revelation is great source for entertainment.

I always like the apocalypse catastrophy movies etc. In those stories everything is set in largest possible context. It is excellent escapist trick you see.

Apocalypse makes your personal problems suddenly very indifferent. There always is a world wide crisis going on somewhere. If you yourself have a personal problem that frustrates you it is relieving to imagine that this crisis will sweep you, your closest friends and environment you live in - all away at once! I think it is wonderful since also the personal problem is gone, solved by Higher Forces ;)

so I am just having fun scaring the **** out of people while playing with the idea that while my work is stuck the Ultimate Solution is coming closer...
:D

What comes to The Revelation, I regard it as useful as some poetic fiction since there is no possible way to use predictions that are not precise but open to interpretation. I wonder why it is in the Bible anyway. Prehaps the priests needed an ending?

Anyhow, The Revelation and it's symbolical myths are widely spread and known. This makes it good material for for doomsday-entertainment. It is easier to believe the End is near if many people believe the same storyline. You might convince someone to believe you and that is half way believing it yourself...:cool: ...shivers...