Melkor - Evil By will or Evil by Nature?

[Ancalagon]

Following on from a previous debate I have a question to ask forum members. I know this subject has been touched upon in a number of debates, and some have suggested it warrants a space of its own, so here goes;

We know the Ainur were the offshoot of the mind of Iluvatar. We know Melkor was the greatest of the Ainur in the beginning. What we do not know is whether Melkor was an embodiment of evil that iluvatar himself already possessed? Was Melkor destined to corrupt, destroy and abuse all in his power because he was the very embodiment of the creators darker nature? Alternatively, did Melkor choose to become this abomination through his own free-will and desires? Did he create envy, jealousy and lust by design or was it simply fate instilled and woven into his fabric from the beginning?

Have a crack at that one!

[ratodelmorte]

in preodainment there are the lines of fate, destiny, and wierd.
who can say, what is evil-what is good....what was harbinged within...or did it come from the outer self...in the song of the ainur,
it was seen that cacauphony too had its pattern, it's own crashing disconcert...it was part of the song, that there would be a fight, to be oneself-although in godlike terms-to be free of the ohter-and what they would impose. EA, let these things be!

nature, all present, chaoas-not loving,not hating, but being.
thus the seasons change, marking time immemorial....perpetual,constant...it is what it is.

nurture....it is what is given, the fostering of the heart, the mind, it is what the precurssor wishes to intone in the aftercomer...I am a father of a boy i named christopher. If in love it is made....and given..and held...then the return so too...but if it is in disgust of the other, the blasphemy of bastardship...wanton desire personified...in the host of the flesh...pain inflicted, tortured...then it becomes as thus.....pushed away, neglected.

free will...in intent...is what the being makes of nature and nurture, it goes beyond good and bad, into shades of lesser sins
and greater good, it is the choice to do as you were, are affectd by the two thema, skinner aside, these are really my views.

Long live gothmog....
and what of the blue ishtari?

[Courtney]

That's a good question. I've thought about it a lot. I don't think Melkor had much of a decision in what he did, because I do think that it was really part of Illuvator's plan from the beginning.

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by Courtney
That's a good question. I've thought about it a lot. I don't think Melkor had much of a decision in what he did, because I do think that it was really part of Illuvator's plan from the beginning.

That's an interesting thought. But why would Illuvator plan for all the suffering that Melkor is causing. Isn't that cruel, and wouldn't that make Illuvator evil himself?

[Rosie Cotton]

I think that Eru knew that Melkor would become evil, but he gave Melkor, and all of the valar free-will; meaning that he did not cause Melkor's cruelty, he merely gave him the tools he needed to become so. I suppose you could say that since Melkor was the most powerful of the ainur, and because power corrupts he was doomed from the start.... however being "doomed from the start" would imply that evil was not really a choice; it was his fate. But wait, having a fate means not having free-will to make your own choices in life! Geeze, see what happens when you make me think? I completely contradict and confuse myself. :rolleyes: I think I'll leave this to other more knowledgable members. Maybe somone else can make some sense of what I just wrote.

[ratodelmorte]

the reason i have come to is that in his efforts to dominate and despoil the land-to create a wasteland of Iluvatar's song, to weave in his own vissions, tolkien tries to tell us that what philosophers explain existentialy, in the meatphysical it is the window between thought and action, that is where the free-will takes place, the choice-the catch 22...damned to do, damned if you don't. what is not controllable is the enviroment of nature-all powerful-we have no say if the sun comes up or not, and let us not take into granted that fact....but to continue...that in saying;
when a being that has sentience it is said to have a will...it acts as it does according to its nature, but how it responds to it's enviroment and other's like it and not like it, is where nurture comes to play, for it is in the childhood that response to stimuli is learned, or in other words how to act to a given stimulus...............

morgoth didnot have a choice in what he had seen and what happened to him in the dark of the void, but he is responsible for what he chose to do with his power, he lashed out. Once again, as for example what would you say of dylan Klebold and his friend knowing that they were probably socially picked on and demoralized to the point that they killed people at Columbine high school? would that be easy to call them evil...that they killed remorselessy their fellow school mates...or should we call them abused victums of parental neglect?

morgoth did, however, have free choice...you must remember the world was not made before the song of the ainur, it is only after the song is finished that the doom of Arda is sealed, made permanent unchangeable, to say....melkor had choice in what he sang, he choose dischord and destruction.....but when the world became material, at the ending of the song, his free choice was gone, he had no choice in what he did on arda, it was his destiny, by his choice he chose hios fate......evil.

[Grond]

Okay... knowing the Evil One as well as I do I can very easily answer this question for you.

Melkor had absolutely no choice in the matter. He was destined to be the evil tool of Iluvator from the beginning. The other Ainur were endowed with the spirit of good. The spirit of creating, controlling and sharing their vision of the music with one another and for the betterment of the creation of Arda was their lot.

Melkor, on the other hand, was endowed with many of those same traits and designs but overwhelming all others was the desire to master and the desire to rule.

Those were not traits he wished upon himself. They were bestowed by none other than the Big Guy, Eru. And Eru did it for a reason. There aint no yin without yang. There aint no good without evil. For every rose, there's a thorn. For every elf, there is an orc. In the Big Picture, it's called "Balance". What an absolutely boring and unproductive world Middle-earth would have been if all that ruled was good. There would be no tests of faith, no tests of love. We would for all intents and purposes be like the people from H. G. Wells "Time Machine". (I don't remember their names) These people had everything provided for them and ended up being nothing more than cattle. In short, for one to know good...... they're good must be challenged by evil. This either corrupts them or hopefully fortifies their goodness.

At least, Grond knew Melkor and that's the way he saw it....;)

[ratodelmorte]

just as i said, i would post again, and you seem to concurr with me, that Iluvater was the master of the song...then we are in agreement....perhaps you'll understand better, when i remind you of my earlier posting; the fight to be free of the other and what they impose if they rule you. Morgoth may not have chosen the choice i speak of, the one of to do or not to do, to be or not to be(to get pertinate outside sources into the arguement), you must remember that Arda only existed in Iluvater's mind, body, and holy spirit...it was only at the beginning of the song that they added their distinctiveness to it, that they became part of it-and it part of them.....yeah, tis true melkor was the most powerful, in this world we live in, free-will does exist with preordainment...you have two choices:walk god's path or not.

and you are correct about Feanor, i checked, but maybe you need a reality check mr. millenium, get out of this world and into the real world

ratodelmorte has spoken morgoth loses a silmaril
luthien kisses rato..........morgoth jealous

[DGoeij]

Well, in the Ainulindale I've read several times that Melkor was corrected by Illuvatar in his attempts to turn the music to his own accord. Melkor at first even considered to do much foor the good of the Children, but at the same time wished to be called Lord.
He was meant to be bad in a way I guess, without him no one would ever know for sure what good would be.
But on the other hand, if Illuvatar planned it that way, it wasn't a very nice thing to do. Melkor brought some truly grievious loss in ME........... boy this is getting toward theological grounds. Then again, that's what we're discussing, Gods.

Back to the question: By nature I think, but I don't like it.

[Gothmog]

I do not think that Melkor was Evil by the intent of Eru. Therefore he is not Evil by Nature with no choice in the matter. Melkor and the rest of the Ainur were created by Eru in the begining. So this means that Eru had to have a Dark (Evil) side to him else this could not have been put into his creations.

Melkor was not the only Ainu to make the choice to become his Dark side. that being the case I think that All the Ainur had to a greater or lesser extent some of the dark side of Eru in their making. Melkor went out into the Void to seek for The Flame Imperishable. While he was alone he had thoughts different from the other Ainur, there was none there to keep his thoughts and ideas in line with the rest.

When Eru gave the Themes for the great song, it was these thoughts concieved in the Void that caused the discord in the music. Now at any time Melkor could have chosen a different path, he could have stayed with the rest of the Ainur, he could have returned more often the rest of the Ainur, during the great song he could have left these different thoughts out of the music. He did not do these things. Being the child of Eru's thought he was in part Eru as are all Ainur, so when the Ainur were created they were given freedom to choose but this is limited in all things by nature and environment.

Melkor had a great part of the Dark side of Eru, no choice.
He went often away from the other Ainur, his choice.
He concieved thoughts different from the other Ainur, it happens.
He used these thoughts and ideas in the music, his choice.
He atracted others to his side, Their Choice.

So I feel that it was not Nature nor was it really Will as I think this implies that Melkor knew that there was a choice between Good and Evil at the begining. I think that there were a number of lesser choices taken by Melkor that led him to the point where he had to choose between what he saw as Master or Servant. At any of these points he could have turned from the path. I do think that Nature made him more inclined to the Dark and the same for those who followed him, but it was the series of choices that led to the final act that branded him Evil.

So to put it bluntly in answer to the question - Melkor, Evil by Nature or Evil by Will. Definitely by Choice!

[Ancalagon]

This is good, good, good! A conflict amongst our venerable members regards the source of Melkors evil. Keep it up.

[Courtney]

Maybe I should have said that a bit differently. Perhaps Illuvator could not keep Melkor from being evil(and Melkor could not stop himself from being evil), because Melkor is the evil side of Illuvator, and no matter how much Illuvatar tried, he could not deny the fact that he had a darker side, and that is why Melkor is evil.

[ReadWryt]

From letter #212 of the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien Yr 2000 edition

I suppose a difference between this Myth and what may be perhaps called Christian mythology is this. In the latter the Fall of Man is subsequent to and a consequence (thought not a necessary consequence) of the `Fall of Angels': a rebellion of created free-will at a higher level than Man; but it is not clearly held (and in many versions is not held at all) that this affected the `World' in it's nature: evil was brought in from outside, by Satan. In this Myth the rebellion of creaded free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of it's own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken. The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and inhabitants of it, was a possiblility if not inevitable.

To be possessed of "Created Free-Will" one would have to have been created with the ability to choose your actions, ergo I would say that Mr. Tolkien saw Morgoth as deciding to be Rebellious by choice...

[Ancalagon]

I fully understand the 'giving of free will' as a gift from Eru to the Ainur. Certainly the comparison is inevitable between the Authors own beliefs and comprehension of 'free will' as a gift from our (his) creator, however, if we (or the Ainur) have no benchmark for knowing wrong or commiting acts of evil, where then does that dissent originally stem from. Is it from the creator?

Surely Melkor, as with any who knows his creator, would only wish to please and seek favour. It must be remembered that;

In the beginning Eru, the One, who....., made the Ainur of his thought. Sil.

So we know that they (The Ainur) were from his mind, of his creation, in his likeness!

Yet, we know that even before the music of the Ainur, Melkor was already spoiled or corrupt;

Out of the deeps of Ea she (Varda) came to the aid of Manwe; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her. Sil.

Yet, how does one truly explain the path Melkor walked? Well, this quote from the Ainulindale sums up my arguement, though it is up to each individual to decide for themselves;

for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in understanding of their brethern they grew but slowly Sil.

So Melkor, derived from the thought of Iluvatar, was given the greatest powers, but immediately began to sow discord within the Music from his own imaginings. This is the crux of my thinking on this matter, that these changes were, by design, within Iluvatar himself and maifested by Melkor. He was chosen to cause discord, for this was as Iluvatar meant it to be.

Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall fully understand HIS INTENT IN THEIR PART, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased

Melkor might be considered by some, a 'Patsy'. He played out Iluvatars part for him to the letter. His (Melkor) was the fate of creating discord because he was the incarnation of one aspect of Iluvatars persona.

And, having just read all this back to myself, I realise now that I need to get out more! :)

[Flame of Utumno]

It was definitely Melkor's own choice to do evil.
However, as stated in the Valaquenta, all his actions no matter how evil ended up contributing to the overall greatness of Iluvatar's creation. Eg. After one of the disharmonies added by Melkor during the music, Iluvatar countered the theme with something more beautiful and purposeful which resulted in the coming of the chlidren of Iluvatar (Elves and Men).

[Ancalagon]

But surely the coming of the firstborn was pre-ordained by Iluvatar and not simply an afterthought to counteract disharmony.

[Flame of Utumno]

Yes, I believe it was pre-ordained, but the manner of it coming about was such that it required the act of Melkor's disharmony as the 'catalyst'. This also would have been foreseen by Iluvatar.
At this point, perhaps we are delving into more theological issues. It really depends on how you view Iluvatar. Whether he was modelled on the Judeo-Christian God or something else. Whether he actively takes part in the lives of his creations, or leaves it to the music that they created. At this point, it is interesting to note that men are 'outside' the music of the Ainur so unlike Elves, are not bound to the ultimate fate of Arda, but are beyond the scope of all the knowledge of the Ainur. Iluvatar alone knows what men's ultimate destiny is.

[Ancalagon]

The Author has already given credence to Iluvatars own omnipotence within this 'mythological creation', whether it has distinct similarities to the Authors own theological leanings is for us to ask in another thread; http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1016 I look forward to your input my flaming friend.

Melkor, Evil by Will or Evil by Nature? In this question I can refer to another quote from Ainulindale that I feel epitomises the fact that Melkor, and all the Ainur for that matter, played their parts as determined by Iluvatar himself.

Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite

I have pretty much run out of amunition, it's this or bust!

[Flame of Utumno]

Thanks for the link.

Yes, I think your quote really settles the matter. However, I still have issues about the fact that so much suffering could have been pre-ordained or originally devised by Iluvatar.

On another matter, concerning your names' sake (Ancalagon - was he the dragon that was defeated on Thangorodrim?), Do you think that flying dragons were more powerful than the Balrogs? I have always imagined that Balrogs were more powerful than flying dragons... Do you agree?

[Ancalagon]

I suppose it is how you choose to view these beasts in the order of rank they were given by Morgoth. Upon the battle of Dagor Bragollach it was Glaurung who led the host, with Balrogs in his train. Also, Morgoth chose as his final attempt to save Angband, after the deafeat of his armies and route of his Balrogs, to release upon the host of the Valar Ancalagon and his winged serpents. These were his strongest creatures that he had saved to the last.

The question is; Were Dragons twisted forms of existing creatures in middle-earth, tortured and reared by the hand of Morgoth, or were they Maiar, similar to Balrogs in origin, yet this was the livery with which they chose to adorn themselves with???? I imagine they were formed by Morgoth, bred from forms already in existence within ME. This being the case, is it true to say a creature of ME could be more powerful than a Maiar?

Possibly. There you go, a totally inconclusive and useless answer. :)

[Flame of Utumno]

This is a really good question.
Personally, I don't think that they were corrupted Maiar but more similar to a creation of a Vala, similar to the creation of the dwarves by Aule. Also, I think that unlike Ungoliant, there is no mention of these serpents until after the revolt of the Noldor (correct me if I'm wrong). As such, I don't see them as eternal beings as are the Vala, Maia and Elves, they probably had a very long life span but eventually would die after thousands of years...
I really wished that Tolkien added more detail regarding the flying dragons. It almost seems like they were the antithesis of the giant eagles....

[Grond]

Grond will re-wade in to the issues at hand. I've already stated my opinion concerning Melkor but since more discussion and related quotes have been given, I will begin again.

Eru, created the Ainur and made each of them with a specific purpose as he shaped the idea of this plane in His mind. If you look at each of the Valar and Maia, you will see that each had a special skill or characteristic that distinguished them, one from the other. In the case of Mawe (clouds, heaven, true dominion), naturally he attracted Varda (stars, heaven, support) as a mate and naturally she would have been repulsed by Melkor (false dominion, dark side). All of the other Ainur had their traits and their desires. It is true that Melkor started the discords, but other Ainur joined in to make the discord sustained and disruptive. In doing so, he forced Eru to begin a different theme.... or did he??

I believe that this was all purposefully done by Eru for the very reason of creating Arda in the way he did. As stated in my previous post, a Middle-earth created strictly by the non-Melkor side would have been a boring place of beauty and robotrons. There would be no true free will in the world as everything would be perfect. No conflict, no troubles, only living life with everything given to you and with "no chance to grow". What Melkor bequethed to Middle-earth was "free will". The choice to choose between good or evil or to choose between right or wrong. And by doing so, creating a good from evil or a wrong from a right. All of these variables disappear without a Melkor to align with or oppose. As for poor Melkor, he had absolutely no choice in the matter himself. He was as he was made. Eru chose him to be the vessel of this discord and though it appears he did it of his own free will, he was destined to do it no matter what. Just as the Maia who followed him, whether from the ranks of Aule or Yavanna or Manwe or whoever, were destined to contribute to the ultimate vision of Middle-earth which was all Eru's. So, the means of doing all this appear as "free will" but the mechanism of its accomplishment is nothing short of preordination.

Grond has again been long winded and used not one quote to support these assertions; but, rest assured that Grond has read all of your posts and feels his explanation is in harmony with all of them.

Finally, Ancalagon, you know that you are Maia. No spirit of Melkor was more powerful that Ancalagon the Black. I also believe that all of the great evils from Balrogs to Wurms to Dragons to Werewolves were corrupted Maia, of which I'm sure there were more than the 8 Balrogs. Cian is the resident fact wizard. I'm sure he'll point out if there is written evidence of any errors in my logic. Alas, Grond is worn out....... again I behoove you all to "lock and load"!

[Gothmog]

I will keep this brief as I agree with most of what Grond and Ancalagon posted. I only argue the point of did Melkor have a choice?

In my view he did. Yes he was Iluvatar's instrament, but so were all the Ainur. He did have a great deal of the Dark Side of Illuvatar in his make-up but so did other Ainur. Iluvatar may well have hoped that Melkor would be the one to lead the discord but I feel that to be able to give the 'free-will' to the peoples of Ea, Melkor also had the Free-will to choose which path He would walk.
Then Iluvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty had been wakened into song'

the points to note are- "each with his own thoughts." and "if he will"
For these to mean anything there must have been free-will for the Ainur for them to have their own thoughts and to choose to adorne or not the Theme of Iluvatar. I believe that had Melkor and the other Ainur no choice in the matter, there would have been no point in the Great Music for Iluvatar.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Gothmog
I will keep this brief as I agree with most of what Grond and Ancalagon posted. I only argue the point of did Melkor have a choice?

In my view he did. Yes he was Iluvatar's instrament, but so were all the Ainur. He did have a great deal of the Dark Side of Illuvatar in his make-up but so did other Ainur. Iluvatar may well have hoped that Melkor would be the one to lead the discord but I feel that to be able to give the 'free-will' to the peoples of Ea, Melkor also had the Free-will to choose which path He would walk.


the points to note are- "each with his own thoughts." and "if he will"
For these to mean anything there must have been free-will for the Ainur for them to have their own thoughts and to choose to adorne or not the Theme of Iluvatar. I believe that had Melkor and the other Ainur no choice in the matter, there would have been no point in the Great Music for Iluvatar.

Grond, too, will make his response brief as I continue to disagree with your premise. I will use your own quotes which I will slightly append to illustrate my point. From your post, "...each with his own thoughts (which I, Eru have bestowed upon you)." I guess I just disagree with you to degree. The Ainur had free will but were given their gifts with Iluvator's knowledge of how they would be used. Truce?

[Ancalagon]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It's this particular declaration from Eru that I feel compells my own arguement;
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite

Yes, I think all Ainur were furnished with 'free will' without question. However, each was also determined by Eru to play a role in this theatre. Their choices were most certainly their own, however, they would have been choices after they had been set on a specific path. Melkor compounded his own doom by not choosing to show remorse for his discord. That is the exact point where I feel his own 'free will' took prominence over his desire to abide by the will of Eru. Eru had to have known that Melkor was his antagonist, his own alter-ego, his anarchist from which would spring the toils of life in Middle-Earth. Who would have envisaged a paradise, without conflict, turmoil or hardship? As Grond states;

a Middle-earth created strictly by the non-Melkor side would have been a boring place of beauty and robotrons. There would be no true free will in the world as everything would be perfect. No conflict, no troubles, only living life with everything given to you and with "no chance to grow".

After the music was complete, Melkor spiraled into resentment, jealousy, envy and hatred for all that was made beautiful by the Ainur. He could not bring himself to see beauty, for he was blinded by his own spite and malice. His path was was set by Eru, he chose not to stray from it.

[Gothmog]

I believe that we have both put forward our arguments as fully as possible. And yes we disagree only to a degree. We are in agreement that it was Iluvatar's wish it is just his method that is in doubt. So Truce it is.:cool:

And it seems that Ancalagon is right in between us and therefore may be the closest to the truth.

[Ancalagon]

NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo, Caught between the Fiery Whip and Melkors Hammer, surely a fate worse than death! :)

[Flame of Utumno]

Concerning free will, I don't think it was a result of the actions of Melkor that free will was introduced into the world. In the beginning, the Ainu were simply 'offspring' of the thought of Iluvatar. Then they received the gift of free will after being kindled with the Flame Imperishable:
P.1 of Ainulindalie:
'And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, IF HE WILL.'
The 'if he will' in this line clearly indicates that with the Flame Imperishable, they each had the gift of free will. Thus even though Melkor chose to be evil, this was permitted by Iluvatar to be included in the music as it was in accord with the gift of free will provided by the Flame Imperishable.

[Grond]

Oh great Flame of Utumno. If Grond spoke that Melkor bestowed "free will" to the citizens of ME.... he mis-spoke.

What was meant was that without Melkor's discord, evil, per se, would not have existed on ME and its residents would have had choices of how good they would be. Evil was an emotion which the eldar found hard to understand for so few of them ever partook of its attraction. Man and those of other race were susceptible but were it not offered, could they bite from an apple that wasn't there... so to speak. I think not. I feel that it is as has already been put forward, the Ainur had free will but Eru new the game plan beforehand and although he new not exactly which play Melkor would call, he did know that Melkor would score the touchdown.

[rplp81]

Wow! What a lot to stomach! I've read this thread intensely and with eagerness. This debate about Melkor is one that I, myself have pondered upon recently.
I don't know if where I am about to go will raise a question or will just be the stating of what I believe... We'll see.

I think, from what I've read in the book and these posts, that Iluvatar created all the Ainur, of which Melkor was one of. Of all of the Ainur, Melkor was the mightiest. Therefore, as someone earlier posted, I believe that power corrupts. And since Melkor was the mightiest of all, this power went to his head and he chose to turn to discord. I don't think that it was necessarily nature, because all of the Ainur had that part of Iluvatar in them. It's just that Melkor was mightier than the rest and possibly felt that he deserved more.

I don't know if I just ran around in a circle there, but your thoughts or corrections would be appreciated.
:)

[Grond]

rplp81,

Sorry but I just don't agree. I continue to circle back to the fact that the Ainur came from the Mind of Iluvator. If they are of his mind, does he not not their mind as well. It might be useful to note that when Manwe has a really difficult problem he seeks the mind of Iluvator and presto changeo, he knows what Iluvator wants. If, by searching his own mind, Manwe can determine the Will of Iluvator, why o why wouldn't Iluvator know what each of the creatures of his thought were doing or going to do for that matter?

[rplp81]

I believe that Iluvatar does know the mind of his creatures, even though they do not know his without seeking him. But he gave them free will, and although he knows their mind, they have the ability to choose what they want to do. Their choices can be thwarted and cast down, but that doesn't stop them from doing it.

[rplp81]

And with that I must leave. *bows out, for a short time*
I will return, yet again, tomorrow. :)

[Grond]

Alas, one ends up in Theology whether one wills it or no. The very self same argument is made concerning predistination of man versus free will in all religious doctrines of our own age and world.

[Courtney]

I was thinking today, since I just finished reading the chapter "the council of Elrond" about how elves don't fight with dwarves who don't fight with hobbits who don't fight with men. they don't always particularly like the other kinds all that much, but they deal with them. Today, people have wars with their own kind all the time. i was thinking maybe Illuvatar, knowing the men and elves might not get along so well, created Melkor so they could all unite against someone and thus have a closer relationship with each other. Does that sound right?

[Flame of Utumno]

Originally posted by rplp81
I believe that Iluvatar does know the mind of his creatures, even though they do not know his without seeking him. But he gave them free will, and although he knows their mind, they have the ability to choose what they want to do. Their choices can be thwarted and cast down, but that doesn't stop them from doing it.

I agree strongly with you RPLP81.
They were 'offsprings' of the thought of Illuvatar, but he gave them all the gift of free will through the 'Flame Imperishable'. It is now their own individual choices which will dictate them, even though Iluvatar probably knows each individual thought and choice that is made.

[gil-estel]

As JRRT himself said-i do not believe that anything was evil in the beginning, not even sauron(possibly melko), not unless all reformers can be called evil.

Melko became annoyed when he felt that nothing was going down with creation, and wanted to create his own things, went for the flame imperishable, couldn't find it , got annoyed became evil

[rplp81]

thanks Flame :)

[Brent]

I agree with Grond. Within creation there is destruction.
I think the great mace is thinking of the Eloi (not sure on the spelling) and the Morlocks from HG Wells Time machine.
The Morlocks are not necessarily EVIL just as the Eloi aren't necessarily good. Anyway thats not Tolkien.

[Grond]

Hail and well met Brent. T'was the Eloi and Morlocks I was thinking of. Thank you for the clarification.:)

[Brent]

Thou art most welcome oh greatest spawn of runda

[ratodelmorte]

i heartily see your point, where does the conscious mind realize its upcoming actions, to do as it does, to think through the action before one acts....where is free will? what is the doorway we enter when we purposely sin? what is the doorway we go through when we choose a lesser evil for the greater good.....
i do not pretend to know everything, I DON'T, that is the miracle of life. it is there, waiting for us to act on it. how we interpret these surroundings whether fantastical or mundane, is exemplified by our actions. its like the eagles song, that no one can set you free, and some peolpe never realize they have the key....(to the chains like jacob marley wore in a christmas carrol).

thank you

[Ancalagon]

So, in summation, I was right and you lot are wrong! My word, this debating lark is simple!!!!!

[Walter]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
So, in summation, I was right and you lot are wrong!

Whatever You say, Anc... ;)

As for the topic: Did anyone mention already, that in the christian lore, one of the first images that are drawn is that of Satan as the fallen angel? And one of the basic things that have been discussed ever since is whether he has/had a free will. And whether he's evil by will or evil by nature.

Oh, and did I mention already, that the experts are still not done arguing about that?

What I am trying to say? That this is a very interesting thread with a really good question, but, I'm afraid, there will not be a definite answer to that one. Consequently there will not be a win/loose situation for the participants (sorry for Ya, Anc!) but a win/win situation for everyone .

One more thing: One of the frequently used mantras in christian meditations is "I am in god and god is in me". And that is how I see the Iluvatar/Ainur relationship...

[Grond]

I agree with you Walter. If one is a Christian, one can't help but parallel your own belief concerning predistination with that of our question in this thread. If one believes that God is all seeing and all knowing..... then we would most likely place those same powers and characteristics in Eru/Iluvator.

I personally believe that God/Eru/Iluvator has created this illusion of Earth/Middle-earth and, since not only the Ainur/angels sprang from his mind but so did the very Earth/Middle-earth both He and they created, hence, God/Eru/Iluvator knows everything that's going on. Heck, it's out of his very mind that all these things were born.

But, you know, I figured out the other day that I'm actually wrong about things some 55% of the time. So don't always believe what you hear......hehehe:)

[Ancalagon]

So, Was Melkor Evil by will or Evil by nature?

A straight answer please, especially from those of you who are trying to sit on the fence.

I have been clear in my understanding of this, he was Evil by Nature, Eru sowed his discord and chaos through Melkor.

And Walter; Oh, and did I mention already, that the experts are still not done arguing about that?

Whoever said that the Christian Church had expertise enough to debate the origin of Satans corruption? Whoever said the Christian Church had expertise?

[Grond]

Gosh Ancalagon. Grond thought he had already made his opinion crystal clear on the issue. But, since there seems to be some confusion, I will restate it again.

Grond feels that Melkor had complete and total free will to do whatever he wanted to do, because Iluvator knew exactly what he would do and thus, Melkor was evil by no choice of his own.

Okay..... did you get that????

[Beren Erchanion]

By will, absolutely. Because he was loving Iluvatar so much that he wanted to create something from himself to Iluvatar, a gift...That's why he began to sing his own songs lonely in the void, knewing that he's greater than the others what makes him feel more alone (like anybody else). and when he gives his gift to his father, some peoples like it some others were thinking that was forbidden to start a song based on a melody from himself. But his father wasn't happy at all, He even try to buried him whit another song soonly joined by almost everybody...By punishment Ilùvatartook him away some of his power afraid or already knewing of an eventual case of rebellion. Than he became jealous because he wasn't a Vala in the great council supposeded to rules Arda...His Arda, the creation he participate more than every other Ainur...than he began to be really angry because there was something missing...Peoples from his kind around him, understanding his problem and bla bla bla (psychologic **** :rolleyes:))...but that all began whit somethig, not with hate or violence, but with love...the love of his Father


I don't think that was expected or planned in anyway. I don't think that Melkor "turned evil" by free will or choice. I even think that it's not Melkor's fault. But if you want a guilty for Arda's suffering I suggest Ilùvatar...guilty for the crime of being a bad Father.

Tolkien probably send a good message with this "Evil son" can not rule everything. Even God can have a failure...a failure call Melkor...:eek:

[Walter]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
A straight answer please, especially from those of you who are trying to sit on the fence.

You know the sound of two hands clapping together? Now try and listen to the sound that just one hand makes...
Could it be, my friend, that one has to be evil by nature to be evil by will?

Whoever said that the Christian Church had expertise enough to debate the origin of Satans corruption? Whoever said the Christian Church had expertise?
Not me, thats for sure! But what's for sure is, that they aren't the only experts discussing that issue...

[Ancalagon]

Step off the fence and give me an answer please and to the other, I totally agree!

[Walter]

But Anc, I already gave my answer and I believe it was a clear one:
Originally posted by Walter
What I am trying to say? That this is a very interesting thread with a really good question, but, I'm afraid, there will not be a definite answer to that one.

To me this is not an "either..or" but a "not only...but also" question. Let me try another approach: Try replacing Melkor with Saruman in the question. Answering that one will seem much more difficult for You than the same question for Melkor because You might notice that You will have to replace the black&white-view You project on Melkor with a greyscale-view for Saruman.

Some questions that contain an "exclusive or" just will not allow a definite answer...

[Ancalagon]

Grond feels that Melkor had complete and total free will to do whatever he wanted to do, because Iluvator knew exactly what he would do and thus, Melkor was evil by no choice of his own.

I do not think in all my days I have ever read such a contradiction in such few words!

[Ancalagon]

The difference between Saruman and Melkor, is that Melkor is closer to the thought of Iluvatar than any. He was the highest, the elite, the mightiest........yet he caused havoc within the music. Why? Was it because Eru had decreed that he was his chosen vessel of evil or was it because Melkor himself dreamed up evil without prior knowledge of its existence? It's not diffivcult really!

[Brent]

Is the answer about "EVIL" or is evil just a by-product of Melkors desire to rule, to dominate, to master ?

[Brent]

Originally posted by Brent
Is the answer about "EVIL" or is evil just a by-product of Melkors desire to rule, to dominate, to master ?
What is interesting, for me, is the bit that says "he had gone often alone into the void .... for desire grew hot within him to bring into being things of his own." he was impatient. That's a bit like Aule and his creation of the dwarves, though Aule repents of course.
Interesting thought.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
The difference between Saruman and Melkor, is that Melkor is closer to the thought of Iluvatar than any. He was the highest, the elite, the mightiest........yet he caused havoc within the music. Why? Was it because Eru had decreed that he was his chosen vessel of evil or was it because Melkor himself dreamed up evil without prior knowledge of its existence? It's not diffivcult really!

Ah, that great old issue of theodicy...:)

To some extent, you could say that "evil" is a relevant term. Melkor initially sowed discord in the music. By his own choice, he chose to go against the will of Eru. Because, by nature, Eru was the benevolent God, anything against His nature would be considered evil. I do not think that Melkor needed any pre-existing knowledge of evil to choose to go against Eru. With the freedom of choice comes the existence of good or evil, based on your reference point.

[Dol Amroth]

I don't really have time to read all the posts from this right now, which I know I should really before I say anything, but I hope you'll all forgive a new-comer. If I'm saying anything thats already been said, I apologise.
I can't help but think that Tolkien was working decidedly within a (Catholic) Augustinian framework when he composed The Silmarillion. Ie, good is in fact nothing more than a "privatio boni" - an absence of good. There is no such thing as evil, simply degrees of goodness.
It seems incomrehensible that part of the mind of Illuvator could be evil by nature. Rather, I feel that just as Satan in the Augustinian theological take is, in so far as he exists, wholly good, Morgoth is not in fact evil. He is just not very good at all!!
I'm in no way advocating this as a sound theory regarding problems of evil, it clearly isn't. However, I do think that this, or something very like it, is what Tolkien had in mind, possible sub-consciously.
Therefore, Morgoth can neither choose to, or by nature be evil. He is, I repeat, good as far as that goes - ie. he could be worse!!- just that doesn't go far.
I'm very concious that I haven't explained this view very well, so if anyone's even vaguely interested, I'll try and think a little more about it, and have another go when I have more time and have read the previous posts. Sorry for rambling on!

[Gloer]

1. Evil is nothing. Because God/Iluvatar is good and all his creation is good there is no such thing as evil. But.
What is it then?
It is lack of good. It is absence of good. Absence of creation. Void.

or

2. There is evil. There are things that can be called evil by nature, by creation. Evil is as concrete as good.

The first is a christian view. The latter is non-christian view embraced by many pagan myths. The pure form can be found in Manikeanism in which we hardly can tell the difference of god and evil by their actions for they only battle against eachother.

Folloving the christian belief, one should embrace good and never fight, one should be a pacifist. Still we encounter in life evil that must be fought. If the strong shall not fight the evil they abandom those that are weaker and thus let evil happen. Are they then not evil themselves?

In Middle Earth both depictations of evil are carefully and deliberately co-existent. The readder may pick which ever he wants.

The Ring - Is the ring an evil creature with that dominate's the bearer, or is it mere device that slowly strangles the will to do good - replacing it with nothing - evil.

The Ringwraith - Are the wraiths creatures of ultimate evil - or are they men that have become what evil is by nature - nothing, void? The Wraith Wields a weapon, but still it's weapon is in the hearts of oponents - fear and hopelessness.

The Ungoliant - That spider comes from the void and sucks all creation and turns it into nothingness. That is dark and evil. A black hole.

The Orcs - Orcs are twisted from elves. Still orcs seem to have an understanding of a certain moral. They honour it in their words but in their actions allways betray it (Condemning Frodo being "abandoned" by the other "elf" at Cirith Ungol, yet laughing at the very same betrayal they had done to their fellow Orc!)
Orcs are not evil by creation but they are twisted so that they do nothing good.


So the worst mistake is to see evil in M-E as either merely as a creature Dark Lord ang his will or evil merely as lack of goodness in people. The end is bought with great tears and still evil is not forever conquered.

Frodo gives us no hope. He has none.
But it is not hope that is strong in the battle against evil for those who have it shal fail when hope is taken from them.

The story gives us one answer. Even when there is no hope it is worth doing right, fighting for what is good. The is a certain heroism to this that is not based on conviction of ultimate victory - in afterlife nor in the end of world. Frodo and Sam laugh in Mordor. Theoden charges against the Witchking - with no hope, but with no fear either. And the Horn of Eorl is trumpeted defiantly against the evil - against all odds. While Denethor has lost his hope - fools hope has failed! But who needs hope?

Example from the old: In the Norse mythology there is a story of the end of the world when gods shall have the final battle with the giants. And they will lose. In the Norse mythology evil ultimately wins and there is no hope. And still the viking heros choose to fight for good side. Why? There is nothing to gain, to win - no better future.
They choose so simply because it is honourable and - right.
That is the heroism - something Tolkien wants to translate to christian world where good ultimately wins thus deminishing real heroism, real courage that is needed against the very real evil in the world.

Ps. So Melkor is not all evil until he is casted in the void. It might be seen as a long diminishing of all goodness. And as it happend Melkor loses his ability to wield his power in Middle Earth. He has to work through servants and manipulation. Until he ceases to exist all together as a being, he is the void... (sounds heretic I know)

[Black Horseman]

Ok everybody will agree that there is no such thing as "evil "and there is no such thing as "good" but just everything in between or anything else you want. But there is love and hate, peace and war. I will still use "evil" expression because I don't want to philosophy about Nitszche or Hitler but just want to talk about Melkor. Melkor corruption to evil start with something somewhere like Fëanor corruption came from the desire of the Silmarils for himself alone. Like Beren said, Melkor sang a song to his beloved Father Erú because he loved him and wanted to show him with pride that his able to sing by himself like good little boy. Before this he was pure and lonely the greatest creation of Erú. He wasn't supposed to sing something else than what Erú was singing with them. But can we blame him just because he offer a gift to his father, with all his love ignoring that he's so powerful that he can change the face of the world forever just by singing a song to show his father that he's able to do so just like Him. No. He didn't have the intention of doing someting wrong by singing that song. But others Ainur spirit were just supposed to follow a song already created by Erú so when Melkor start his song a lot of them followed it and that's the "sin" of Melkor. he stoled to Erú som Ainur spirit who joined him. After Erú's punishement Melkor wasn't the mighty spirit he was Erú took him back some of the most important of his powers, like the gift of creation, and he was exclude of the Arda's council to rule the life of Arda in wich he put all his power and strenght. I understand how can he be jealous and frustrated. He participate to Arda more than anybody but because he got to far he's banished. After that he turned "evil" but he's not to blame it's the situation and we cannot blame a situation. Melkor didn't choose to turn evil (unlike Saruman the treater) and i don't think that if Erú really wanted an evil lord he wouldn't have choose he's mightiest creature.

[Ancalagon]

I can't help but think that Tolkien was working decidedly within a (Catholic) Augustinian framework when he composed The Silmarillion. Ie, good is in fact nothing more than a "privatio boni" - an absence of good. There is no such thing as evil, simply degrees of goodness.

What is evil if not the opposite of good. The Augustinian interpretation of evil epitomises the Catholic desire to create levels of entry to the Kingdom of God. An example is the assumption that those who sin, may wait in purgatory and gain entry to heaven if assisted by the prayers of the righteous on earth. If Tolkien belives this, why was Melkor cast into the void for enternity? Surely the righteous of Midlle-Earth would seek to attone for the sins of Melkor. However, this was not the case, for there is no religion in Middle-Earth. Melkor was himself damned by his own actions and forgiveness plays no part in his destiny.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
... the Catholic desire to create levels of entry to the Kingdom of God

different levels of entry and at different prices...see also "Indulgence"...

----
sorry for being off topic - again - but I just had to throw that in...

----
Welcome to this forum, Black Horseman :)
I would be interested to learn what made You name Nietzsche in one breath with Hitler. Did You actually read F.Nietzsche, I mean - more than just a few quotes? Or why Nietzsche and not e.g. A.Schopenhauer or K. Marx?

[Gloer]

Hi Anc,


Evil can be opposition for good in two ways:

1. Creation is both good and evil. Evil is also essentially something real and can stand alone. As there are creatures of good origin there are creatures of evil.

2. Creation is all good. Evil is the lack of good. It is not part of creation and thus is something else. Evil is a shadow of creation cast upon void, it is lack of light.

Melkor was cast in to the void. It can mean that he is evil beyond retrieval and thus must be cast out of the good world as a punishment.

Or also that Melkor is pure evil and as such essentially void of all creation he is void himself. There no Melkor. Only remnants of his actions and lack of goodness. The core of Morgoth's empire is hollow. When all his forces are destroyed - he ceases to have any in direct form. He is "cast" in the void.

A simple explanation on how and why those mighty ainu that turn to evil slowly lose their ability to choose the form of their existance and possibileties of direct involvement. They need servants.

[Dol Amroth]

Originally posted by Gloer
That is the heroism - something Tolkien wants to translate to christian world where good ultimately wins thus deminishing real heroism, real courage that is needed against the very real evil in the world.


I don't think that in the mythology of JRR Tolkien, or in Christian theology real values such as heroism and courage are in any way diminished. Fate in Middle-Earth isn't an agent which will bring about a victory for the forces of evil regardless of events. We cannot think that there was no chance that Frodo could have failed. The success of the Quest relied not on Divine will though there are certain instances in which divine inspiration seems the only explaination for events. [Frodo was MEANT to aquire the ring, but NOT BY ITS MAKER.]
Frodo still had to voluntarily choose to undertake the Quest. The opportunity was provided by Fate, but that opening could have been rejected. Similarly, we must accpet that there was a real possibility that Gandalf, Aragorn, Galadriel & co. may have been tempted by the lure of the ring, to the ruin of all.
It is only through the courage, heroism and resistence in the face of adversity that the triumph of good was brought about. Edmund Burke's words are highly appropriate for the world of Tolkien: "For the triumph of evil it is necessary only that good men do nothing."
The designs of Fate, we must accept, would have gone astray if not for the undeminished heroism of the Fellowship and the wise. Otherwise, not only would the values of courage and heroism be deminished, but also the value of the book.
And incidently, we need not think that good HAS ultimately triumphed. As Gandalf reminds us, "Always, after a defeat and a respite, the shadow takes another shape and grows again."

[Ancalagon]

A simple explanation on how and why those mighty ainu that turn to evil slowly lose their ability to choose the form of their existance and possibileties of direct involvement. They need servants.

I don't understand?

[Gloer]

Well first of all I have to refere to Shippeys book on Tolkien's works "Author of the Century". Most of that talk about how evil is presented in his books is from there. I think the main point in Lotr was to portray evil as absence of good and at the same time something that is very r2eal.

I had a further thought. All evil creatures seem to be created good. Then they turn from good. they are obsessed by power, knowledge, whatever... They somehow lose themselves as they lose goodness.

There is also another thing - as Melkor gets more evil, as Sauron gets more evil as Gollum gets more evil - they develop as creatures also. And that developement is from being very substantial towards being void. When there is nothing good left in the Dark Lord he is more and more closer to being just nothing.

This of course sounds quite absurd:
Sauron can not take shape because he is not strong enough.
What I am basically saying is that he can not take shape because he is not good enough. Which is not the same, or is it?

[Gloer]

Originally posted by Dol Amroth


I don't think that in the mythology of JRR Tolkien, or in Christian theology real values such as heroism and courage are in any way diminished.
---
Edmund Burke's words are highly appropriate for the world of Tolkien: "For the triumph of evil it is necessary only that good men do nothing."
The designs of Fate, we must accept, would have gone astray if not for the undeminished heroism of the Fellowship and the wise. Otherwise, not only would the values of courage and heroism be deminished, but also the value of the book.
And incidently, we need not think that good HAS ultimately triumphed. As Gandalf reminds us, "Always, after a defeat and a respite, the shadow takes another shape and grows again."

I agree with you that christianity does allow the kind of courage I described. Of course. But then in the end this religion believes good wins finally on earth and as promised afterlife. Therefore it is beneficial to do good. And there is always hope. But this hope makes it harder to fight when that hope seems to evade further away.

What I am trying to say that hope and victory are irrelevant in the question whether we should strive to do good. In a world were there is no hope and the evil ultimately wins, it still is right to do good. Without any other reward than personal integrity.

I agree with Burke and you, the boo succeeds to portray that courage. In Theoden that does not need hope to charge against Nazgul, Frodo who knows in his heart that evil is not destroyed with the ring. He foresees he is going to fail the inner battle and still he pushes on to mt. Doom. You are very right that only by thriving to do good creates a possibilety of victory. But in the end it is not in our hands.

[ratodelmorte]

so i see there is resistance and some closed mindedness, and lots of admonishming for not sticking to some rigid guideline that mandates what i can and can not use in my, as one member put it, sililoquis. as other threads within the differing catagories of public posting, such as the hobbit as parable, and righteously those of chunckychoopie's nonsensical, but not unscrupulous adages(such as why should i speak, i know nothing) ring true and clear in the void of censorship and black listing and fanatacism. I will not tolerate puritanical thought!

I am correct in my approache to tolkien, and may ancalagon meet mr. fastitocalon....for your father is calling you to go out for a walk.....and have answer to his question.

I base my theories about Tolkien, THE MAN, on the numerous writings that exist whether fully or in part or biographical in nature and to the collective store of my knowledge.

you don't like my themes?
bah!

famouse quote(ratodelmorte) access the general to get to the specific.

If you will note, I almost never quote from any of the, dare i say,
tomes of mythoi and great deeds of tolkien's, and perhaps never will? Well i say to those who would use text quotables YEH YOU KNOW MANY WORDS.....But what is life if it is not tempered with limitless sex and violence?.....bring on the limitless sex objects.....
give a to me the genital warts............sexacutioner....as you see i draw from many sources of knowledge and snippets of lines and

Haven't any of you ever read Joseph Campbell? NO not bruce from the evil dead! the joseph campbell that inspired george lucas both philosophically and image wise...or how about neitsche, or kierkegaard, or vergil or homer....I draw my knowledge from various sources....to interpret and to examine the ideas that tolkien tapped into to realize his creativity.

i see there appears to be a social hierarchy around here, i am sorry if i upset the balance-but hey, I gotta be me....for i am ratodelmorte, the black plague, the death......i am beyond mandos's doom.....i am with the void and the void is with me, i know where the mortals go.........if they've been good, that is.



would you mind identifying yourself?
we call our selves the Q.

the line must be drawn here.....
have you ever read moby ****, well you're kind of like him you know?

wesley! number one! engage! all hail and kuplah! toch be, ta be!
cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!

LONG LIVE JEAN LUC-PICARD!

rato defends trekkies, let all who come here find the comfort of my fire, and all those who leave.....may your aeries recieve you and the wind blow at your back;)

[Grond]

ratodelmorte...

A great post from a purist of the works of Lucas, Roddenberry and the ilk. All are pale imitators of the Master who started it all. But I appreciate your enthusiam for them. It's a shame you don't base any of your nonsense....er, I mean ideas on quotes, since the author's words answer many of the posts put up. Of course, many like yourself, pay no intention to what the author says, just what you think the author woulda, coulda, shoulda said.

At least that's the way I see it, but I could be wrong. :)

[Curufinwe]

He brought himself this way by being a 'Loner' among the ainur.

[ratodelmorte]

i will pretend, my dear mr grond that you are being constructively critical with me. although i don't carry my entire tolkien book collection in my pants, i do remember my original intent was to give an answer to ancalagon's querry. Melkor, evil by will or evil by nature.
(as i'm sure you know this(
it reminds me of the scorpion and the turtle, another fable, but i shall not digress.
tolkien liked riddles.
nature=will
melkor evil by will(the things he did
,such as pretend friendship with the valar after being released from the halls of mandos, all the while in the blue mountains the fell creatures stirred, and ungoliant and melkor plotted and destroyed the two trees, the end of the third age)

melkor evil by nature, the song of the ainur is my example

the dark powers may be strong, and the reach long......
i am disturbed by your lack of faith in the force.....................
xxzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzshhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
that is a light saber, a jedi's weapon of choice.........
my friend doesn't like you, i don't like you either.....if you're not careful, you'll wind up dead.......
my friend has the death sentence on three planets.....
oh by the by, i didn't mention ray bradberry.....perhaps you should read better.

[Grond]

Originally posted by ratodelmorte
...would you mind identifying yourself?
we call our selves the Q.
the line must be drawn here.....
have you ever read moby ****, well you're kind of like him you know?
wesley! number one! engage! all hail and kuplah! toch be, ta be!
cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!
LONG LIVE JEAN LUC-PICARD!
rato defends trekkies, let all who come here find the comfort of my fire, and all those who leave.....may your aeries recieve you and the wind blow at your back;)
Originally posted by ratodelmorte
oh by the by, i didn't mention ray bradberry.....perhaps you should read better.I made no errors in my post. I did not say Ray Bradberry I said Gene Roddenberry, creator of the whole Star Trek universe. Since you are an ardent supporter of trekkie fans I figured you would at least know who created the series. But I guess ole ratodelmorte misses another one.
:)

[Arien]

Why would Iluvatar wish to create suffering for beings that he loved from the very start?
Perhaps all the Valar were capable of doing evil simply because that trait seems to be in every being that Iluvatar created.
A spark of envy fueled his desire, and eventually he became consumed with hatred.

[Grond]

Arien, I will direct you to read my first post on the thread to answer your question but will summarize it again for you.

Without yin the is no yang. Good and evil go hand in hand and God/Iluvator/Eru/Allah or whatever you call the master diety knows this quite well.

A world of all good would be Eden. With no challenges to be overcome. Everyone forgets that the fruit Eve sampled and gave to Adam was "knowledge". There is no knowledge without there being evil to counter good.

So, Eru (in all his wisdom), had to invest one of the thoughts of his mind (Vala) with the counter-balance to good and thus "evil" was born. It wouldn't have worked any other way. You would have a world of automatons and only good "emotions". While that would be a very nice place to visit, I wouldn't want to live there. With everyone already being "perfect", where would there be any room to grow???

But that's just the way I see it and I could be wrong.:)

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by Grond
[B]Without yin the is no yang. Good and evil go hand in hand and God/Iluvator/Eru/Allah or whatever you call the master diety knows this quite well.


Just curious, Grond, how do you imagine Heaven?

[Grond]

I imagine heaven as Aman in the world of Tolkien. Heaven is the absence of evil. To get there, one must toil through the world of good/evil to develop one's soul to the point where it is worthy to enter.

Tolkien created Middle-earth to be the testing ground. Otherwise, why make Middle-earth at all? Let all be born and live in Aman? Why make Earth at all? Let all be born and live in heaven.

The parallels are identical. Good/Evil for soul development and the ultimate reward of a place absent evil. Heck, now you've got me into a discussion of religious connotations and that was not my intent. I just feel that the master plan of any realistic world is just that. Soul development through testing in a worldly plane; therefore, in is inherent that evil was planned and that poor old Melkor had no choice in the matter. I again return to the premise that he sprang from "the Mind of Illuvator".

But that's just the humble opinion of a war-hammer and I could be wrong.:)

[Earnil]

I think Melkor actually might have been evil by will. Because it was his lust for the Secret Fire that he became evil. So I don't think it was anything to do with Iluvatar.

[Dol Amroth]

Originally posted by Ancalagon


What is evil if not the opposite of good. The Augustinian interpretation of evil epitomises the Catholic desire to create levels of entry to the Kingdom of God. An example is the assumption that those who sin, may wait in purgatory and gain entry to heaven if assisted by the prayers of the righteous on earth. If Tolkien belives this, why was Melkor cast into the void for enternity? Surely the righteous of Midlle-Earth would seek to attone for the sins of Melkor. However, this was not the case, for there is no religion in Middle-Earth. Melkor was himself damned by his own actions and forgiveness plays no part in his destiny.


I'm concerned by your comment that there's no religion in Middle-Earth. Obviously there is no organised religion, at least none that is reported, but the whole mythology certainly has an underlying Christian, no less Catholic thread. Indeed, Tolkien himself said that although he made no deliberate attempt to impose religious views on his work, it was necessarily, because of his own perspectives and bias if one wishes to use that word, a Christian and Catholic work.
Also, regarding the banishment of Melkor. There is nothing in Tolkiens description that isn't perfectly compatible with Catholic theology. In fact, the whole episode is HIGHLY reminiscient of the account in Revelations 19-20 of the chaining of the Serpent (Satan) who the Angel then "threw into the Abyss, and shut the enterence and sealed it over him." Augustine believed that the "evil-doers", or those who aren't good, would undergo punishment in Hell in order to "restore the natural balance". IE. somehow the punishment would right the wrongs that spring from Original Sin, caused by Satan rejecting his place in the ordered universe and disrupting the Principle of Plenitude. The idea of purgatory as a half-way to heaven comes in more in the Irenaean Theodicy. I'm not claiming this is the view taken by all catholics (not me, certainly!), just as a possible parallel, intended or unconcious, to what Tolkien is doing.

[Grond]

Earnil, I must disagree. The Ainulindale doesn't state that. It says, "...He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Beings things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought of the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness..."

Desire "growing hot" doesn't constintute lust to me. I think the discord was in him from the beginning, placed there by Eru. Else why, of all the Valar, was he alone without a mate? All the others had someone to communicate their inner most thoughts and desire. Someone who could temper their desire to create and reinforce patience, yet Melkor was alone. Since he was alone and had no one else to speak to, his inherent evil grew. This had to have occurred because that was the Master Plan of Iluvator, else, it wouldn't have happened that way.

[Flame of Utumno]

If Melkor was inherently evil, then that would mean that Iluvatar created something inherently evil. In other words, Iluvatar performed an evil deed.

However, if Tolkien modelled Iluvatar on the Catholic-Christian God, then Iluvatar could not have created Melkor inherently evil, becuase God is incapable of doing evil. Evil is simply the result of chosing to do the wrong thing - as Melkor did after receiving free will via the 'Flame Imperishable'.

Also, from the first line of the Ainulindalie: 'and he made first the Ainur, the HOLY ONES.'

Clearly, it states that the Ainur were 'HOLY', completely opposite to being inherently evil. Furthermore, since Melkor was the greatest Ainu, he could possibly have been the most holy of all of them in the beginning. He simply chose to do the wrong thing after being given free will, and so became evil.

(I hope this adds some strong defence for the case of the 'Not Inherently Evil' contingent, as it seems that we are losing this argument to the likes of Grond and Co.)

[Walter]

Originally posted by Flame of Utumno
If Melkor was inherently evil, then that would mean that Iluvatar created something inherently evil. In other words, Iluvatar performed an evil deed. Now if we replace Melkor with Satan and Ilúvatar with God we get one of the fundamental catholic christian views, for Satan there is nothing else than a fallen angel and in this thread we may as well be discussing whether satan was evil by will or evil by nature, and whether God was able to do something evil by creating Satan the results will be the same...

[Dengen-Goroth]

I haven't been here earlier, thougth this topc is very fascinating. Personally i believe Melkor may represent the eventual downfal of man, or the desire, the lust if you will, for power in Men. We can easily establish links between the Valar and certain races, obviously Aule to dwarves Manwe to the Elves, and Melkor to men. Why not orcs or the other creatures he created? Because Melkor was not evil to that extent. Like Men he took a fall from grace, like the Men did twice in Tolkien's histories. He battled against the other vala, as the Numenoreans, and was corrupted-like many men. Satan may represent a warning, of the fall hich is possiblefor men, and Melkor may represent the same.

[Gloer]

I think this isvery good thing to point out: Melkor is very evil but he is also good to some extent. There are characteristics in Melkor that can not be condemned - that are neutral or even virtuous. Melkor is not all evil and his evil is very much like that of men and Feanor: pride and lust for power.

Sauron on the otherhand - there seems to be no character in that slimy double-crossing, deceiving, cowardly and evil being. Sauron had no dignity at all and humbled himself to be a slave for a mortal man. Morgoth at least defended his honour against Fingolfin. He gave the old elf a fair match and anhonourable death - that is kind from an enemy!

So Sauron has risen to be the vala for the race of Orcs.
He is a mockery of the Vala - the Lords of Arda - as the Orcs are mockery of elves. Orcs and Sauron have a lot in common.

[Grond]

I agree with everyone. Melkor was not all evil.... just as God is not all good. If he was, then there would have been no Satan. The minute Satan began his escapades he wouldn't have been blown out of heaven, he would have been obliterated from existence.

I use God here as the example because the parallels are impossible to avoid. It all comes down to the final question as to whether we have an all-seeing/all-knowing God/Eru. If you feel that God/Eru has the master plan and is beyond ignorance, then you have no choice but to believe that Satan/Melkor is inherently evil. If you believe that God started a sequence of events over which he doesn't have complete control, then Satan/Melkor is evil by choice. It all equates to that simple question... Did God know what he was doing and have a Master Plan or, did he start a sequence of events for which he is responsible but has no control?

At least that's the way I see it, but I could be wrong.

[Walter]

Part of my profession is developing software. I know what I'm doing, I have a "Master Plan", I am responsible but do things always go the way I want them to go? Of course not... :p

But then again, I'm not God...

Oh btw. maybe Melkor is just the "uncertainty principle" of god's physics...

-------
What my point is??? As I stated long ago in this thread it's not "either"..."or"!

[Grond]

Exactly Walter.... but who wrote this Uncertainty Principle if not God??

[Walter]

ooops - of course I meant:

maybe Melkor is just the "uncertainty principle" of Eru's physics...

which can also be read as:

maybe Satan is just the "uncertainty principle" of God's physics...

Grond: Of course God/Eru ... but maybe he was working with the "Trial and Error" principle...

or:

How can one be evil by will, if they are not evil by nature? And if they are not evil by nature can they be evil by will at all???

[Gloer]

A signifficant difference between Eru and God could well be this:

The Genessis tells us that in the beginning there was nothing and God said let there be light. And the light came. And the God saw that this was good. And so forth.

What can we observe from this?
There is a pattern of action that precedes evaluation. God has no idea wether he does good things as he is creating. He also seems to have no plan.

In the Silmarillion we have the first chapters telling us of Ainulindae or the creation. First there is Void and a Secret Light and a lot of Ainur with Eru.

Then Eru gives the Ainur a theme to sing. Andthey all sing it until it is taken away by Eru. Then the Ainur are told that this song was only a presentation of a world that Ainur would create and mould according to the theme (and some not).

What can we makeof this? There is a plan! Eru has planned the world and he even tests it out first. Sees that it doesn't work first and mends it with new themes. And only when Eru sees that his ideas will prevail and out last the incoherrent tunes, he sends the ainur to create the world. The song is not predestaining what will happen, it is merely an elaborate test on how Erus ideas might workout in practise.

Conclusion: Eru is a rather careful creator in comparison to God.

[Lorien]

the evil of melkor was probably a mix of both....mor of his own will but i think eru had a bit of the baddie in him and maybe just passed it on to all the ainur..but melkor was different cos he chose to open up to the darker side rather than to the good side....
and i think that god maybe had a master plan that didnt go always on track.....
;)

[Grond]

Lorien, good answer. I can support either answer as correct as long as the poster is consistent in their back up statements. Melkor can't be evil by will if you believe in an all-seeing/all-knowing Eru. And conversely he can't be evil by nature if you believe that Eru just started the ball rolling and let the chips fall as they may.

[Gloer]

Elrond the Wise concludes us the one and only fact:

Melkor was good in the beginning.
Therefore Eru created nothing evil.

From the Council of Elrond:

'Alas, no,' said Elrond. 'We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear. And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so. I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it.'
`Nor I,' said Gandalf.

[Lorien]

this is getting a bit repetitive....
my point here is if eru was all good then why in the world did he tolerate melkors antics......and since eru is well."eru" he shouldn't have banished melkor he should've finished him off and be done with it...why the leniency??
the reason i see is that eru had a little darkness and melkor just chose to make the most of the "lesser half" in himself..and eru might've known that the chances that there could be one bad vala among the lot were there and he was tolerant of the fact that melkor was bad because it probably came FROM eru HIMSELF.......!!!!
now replace eru=god and satan=melkor and see the light.....:D

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Grond
Lorien, good answer. I can support either answer as correct as long as the poster is consistent in their back up statements. Melkor can't be evil by will if you believe in an all-seeing/all-knowing Eru. And conversely he can't be evil by nature if you believe that Eru just started the ball rolling and let the chips fall as they may.


The underlying cause of Melkor/Lucifer's evil was in his power of choice. Eru/God was responsible for the possiblility of evil is in the power of choice He gave to the Holy One's and all created beings. Melkor/Satan were created perfect, but with the power of choice. Therefore, Eru/God is not responsible for the actuality of evil. The power of choice, implies a positive or a negative. Obedience and disobedience. Evil exists based on your reference point. Because God is love, just and mercy (as was Eru), then any choice contrary to His will is disobedience and thus considered evil. Could God create free-willed contingent beings and guarantee they would not sin? No, for then they would not be free. Melkor became what he was by choice even though his nature allowed him the power to choose.

I feel like I am back in Philosophy of Religion class again. :)

[Grond]

Ahhh good Thorin. That is exactly what this debate always degenerates into. I am unsubscribing to the thread....because there is no correct answer. It all depends upon your personal beliefs about the "involvement" of God and whether he is an all seeing/all knowing entity. Thus we always get back to the argument of if Eru/God gave free will to Melkor/Satan and made them perfect in the beginning with the "free will" to choose and they chose evil...... isn't God ultimately responsible for evil? And if God is responsible for evil, didn't he intend/forsee it happening? How can it be any other way? ***Grond steps down off the pulpit and heads to the choir room***

And you kind Thorin have the magnificent honor of getting my 1000th response/post.:D

[Courtney]

I didn't know that we were comparing Eru to God and Melkor to Satan. I thought we were discussing a fictional book.

[Gothmog]

Some people look at all books from the same perspective?

[Lorien]

great reply Grond.....
its all a question of personal viewpoint and beliefs......
i think i'll join him in the choir room now....:D

[Grond]

Alas Courtney, I was simply illustrating the fact that the two issues are identical from a theological standpoint. There can be no doubt that Eru = God and Melkor = Satan from a Creator vs. Evil standpoint and that is what we have here.

If this analogy offends you, please just pull out all of my references to God and Satan and let the rest of my post stand in so far as Eru and Melkor are concerened. I was not trying to bring theology into this but the parallels are just too close to avoid and I felt people would understand my personal views on the matter by showing these relationships. Sorry if I offended. My intention was simply to illustrate my point in a manner more easily understood by all.:)

[Flame of Utumno]

Originally posted by Ancalagon

Surely the righteous of Midlle-Earth would seek to attone for the sins of Melkor. However, this was not the case, for there is no religion in Middle-Earth.

I disagree with this, because I have always had the assumption that Tolkien modelled Melkor on Satan. Since Satan has no chance of atonement , neither does Melkor and so he was thrust into the void for all eternity.

Concerning religion on Middle-Earth, this would be a really good discussion to start because even though there is no formalised religion, there are occurrences of prayers, holiness etc.

[Ancalagon]

My word your in for a long read!

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1250

[Flame of Utumno]

Thanks Ancalagon.

I have added my comments to that forum as well. (My main idea being that Tolkien never intented a religious allegory as much as he intended to create a new MYTHOLOGY).

[Courtney]

Grond, I was not offended, only very confused.:confused:

I personally do not think that Tolkien modeled Melkor on Satan or Eru on God, but that's fine if you do. I'm not in the least offended.

Flame, If melkor has no chance of atonement, then isn't that a bit of Eru's bad side showing through? It's pretty mean to make Melkor spend an eternity in the void, so maybe Eru isn't all good after all? Maybe he did create Melkor evil by nature? hmmmmm... very complicated....

[Flame of Utumno]

Courtney - Yes, eternal damnation to the void seems quite harsh, but it is a concept that is believed in by most Christians (Ie eternal hell fire for the 'damned') and probably by Tolkien, which is why he has Melkor in the void for eternity without hope of forgiveness, just as Satan is in 'Hell Fire' for all eternity.
However, I'm not sure if the Silmarilion states that Melkor is doomed to stay in the void for all eternity. Can someone shed some light on this?

[Thorin]

Melkor will be destroyed by Turin in the end according to the Prophecy of Mandos (I believe so, correct me if I am wrong). Despite widespread belief, this is also Satan's ultimate doom (though I'm sure many people will argue that point).

Hence Eru/God is vindicated rather than considered cruel and unjust...:)

[Flame of Utumno]

Thanks.. I remember it now..
Good old Turin (who suffered the most) get's to have justice done.

Regarding the fate of Satan, in Revelation, he get's defeated but not destroyed - he gets hurled alive into the lake of fire - apparently to be tormented for eternity. (Although some Christian denominations don't believe this).

However there are still similarities in the sense that Melkor get's somehow released from the void and is allowed to do more evil just before he gets defeated, as is the case with Satan.

[Courtney]

Still, what I mean is that Eru created Melkor, and then, when Melkor screws up, instead of forgiving him, instead of helping him, Eru just turns his back on Melkor and sends him to the void. That, in my opinion is pretty cruel.

[Grond]

If you'll read all of my posts, Court.... you'll see that is what I've been saying all along. Melkor couldn't have been evil solely by choice. There had to have been some inherent evil or at the least an intention of evil from the outset when he sprang from the thought of Eru; otherwise, you have a totally unforgiving diety who creates the vessel of evil and then offers him no way to recover/repent. It goes back to my "master plan theory" where Eru knew what he was doing. If he hadn't wanted evil to exist, why didn't he just create Aman (heaven) and forget Arda (Earth) all together. That way it would have been a perfect little world with no vices and no evil.

[Thorin]

Any of the Valar could have rebelled like Melkor, none of them did. They were all created the same with the same power of choice. In that Eru is held responsible. Just because Melkor chose to do evil, doesn't mean that Eru created him that way. As again stated...the responsibility of the possibility of evil lies with Eru by making free will beings, the responsibility of the actuality of evil lies with Melkor, a free being who chose to rebel. In the choice to disobey (and going against what you know is not a sin that needs to be in our created nature) evil was created because it went against Eru who is the focal point of what is good.

And Flame of Utumno. There is ample evidence in the Bible to show that not only will Satan be ultimately destroyed (like Melkor) but also all the wicked...I'll send you PMs on this if you would like.

[Grond]

So Thorin, God was a ****-shooter who rolled the dice (free will) hoping that all would be good but not knowing which way it would turn. Kinda flies in the face of an All-knowing, All-seeing diety, does it not???? :)

[Thorin]

Aye, and there's the dilemma ain't it?

If God is Omniscient, then He could be responsible for creating free beings to sin. As all knowing, He could have prevented it.

If He is not all-knowing, then it would seem like a ****-shoot.

Either way, this does not change the power of choice that man has. You can't go and say that man WOULD sin with the power of choice, but that man COULD sin. Even though an all-knowing God would know that man would eventually sin, does not mean that He could make man without the power of choice. Foreknowledge does not mean predestination, and if God, knowing that man would sin, destroyed or made man a robot from the start, the universe and non-omniscient beings could justifiably call God unfair, unjust and unreasonable.

Hence the reason, I believe, why Melkor wasn't destroyed right off the bat. As a matter of fact, Eru could be blamed for causing Arda's grief by NOT destroying Melkor.

[Gloer]

If God is truly omnipotent there is nothing beyond his power to do.

So the ultimate thing to do is creating a being over whose choices God has no domination. Creation of free will is true omnipotency. Restriction of Gods own power.

Is this logical?

[Eonwe]

If God is all powerful, can he make a rock so big even he can't lift it?

Applying logic to what God can or can't do is a chinese finger trap.

I just read something in Tolkien about this, and darn-it if I can't remember where it was now...

[Walter]

Originally posted by Thorin
Any of the Valar could have rebelled like Melkor, none of them did. They were all created the same with the same power of choice. In that Eru is held responsible. Just because Melkor chose to do evil, doesn't mean that Eru created him that way. Well what if Eru's thought wavered for a moment while he was giving birth to Melkor? Wouldn't that be able to explain he was evil by nature as well as evil by will?

[Grond]

Walter, you are the King of the art of compromise. You have given us the ultimate answer, Eru made Melkor inherently evil with the free will to choose between evil and evil. :) ;)

[Courtney]

Well, that explains it!:D

[Walter]

LOL, Grond, well thanks, I think... ;)

Well, I've been working on a compromise solution from my very first post in this thread :D

[Snaga]

Can someone show me in Silmarillion where it says that Eru is all powerful?

I would suggest that the fact that Melkor is able to contest with Themes of Eru, and is not defeated, and that Eru is clearly pissed off by this tells you that he is no omnipotent at all!

But I'll take a quote from Silmarillion to prove me wrong. Otherwise I will hold to my view that you are imposing your own preconceptions on the book!

Remember that Melkor gets weakened by creating lots of baddies, that Yavanna can't create the trees twice, nor Feanor the Silmarils. It seems to me that a recurring theme in the Sil is that the creator puts part of himself into his creation, and is no longer as powerful as he was.

[Grond]

Variag, it appears you seek what is not written, merely implied. Eru created, hence one would think he had the power to destroy. In every instance where the rules that govern Middle-earth need to be broken, it is not Manwe that decides but Eru. When Luthien sang her song of woe to Mandos and moved him who never knew pity before; it was Manwe who sought the Will of Iluvatar to determine how the issue should be decided. It was Iluvator who changed the laws of the Eldar to allow Luthien to remain with Beren (which should not have been except that Iluvatar changed the rule). It was Iluvatar who destroyed the island of Numenor with a thought. If he could swallow a whole island and remove Aman from the realm of Middle-earth, I just took that as illustrations of an All Powerful diety.

If you have a different take on matters, I respect that.... I just don't agree with it.:)

[Walter]

Somehow I am afraid we will end up stuck again - there will not be a definite answer whether "Erú" is really allmighty or not and we will again get sidedrawn to discuss the same for "God"

[Snaga]

Grond - Thanks that's a good post - you're referring to the book which is what I was pleading for!:)

Also I think it helps me refine my point a bit, to home in on where I think we differ. So lets take as a starting point that I agree with everything you've just posted (first sentence aside!).

What you have posted suggests that Eru can change the physical shape of Eä and Aman, but does not show that he is able to change what is going on in the hearts and minds of the Ainur, or control their actions.

I think he could destroy them - because he created them. But did not create automatons like Aule's dwarves. He created independent beings.

So was it less than a free choice for Melkor? Was he set up by Eru to be bad. Sil does not say this. It says that Melkor wanted to create things for himself, because he had seen the void and wanted to fill it, and was impatient. So it is this desire to create that is the thing that turns Melkor bad, perhaps. (Which may be an interesting theme to look for elsewhere - Creation leading to Fall. Eg Feanor & the Silmarils.)

But it is worth noting that it is Eru who gets angry first, and tries to impose his will on the Music (without, I repeat, total success). And it is this anger and opposition which entrenches Melkor in an adverserial position. So could it not be said that Melkor is not evil until opposed by 'good'? Or perhaps, that evil does not exist until Melkors will to create is opposed by Eru?

[Grond]

Variag, I have no real defense to the Free-Will issue. It is a dichotomy that one is always faced with when discussing any Creator diety. Man appears to have free will. The Valar appear to have free will. As a matter of fact, Free will appears to reign... everybody's got it.

My final point on this matter is that appearances are not always Truth. Eru does not operate on the same time clock that all of us do, since he in fact created the very time we live in from day one. Free will denotes an action within the very time which Eru created. Since he is operating out of the bounds of his creation of time/space, he should be able to see and know all what goes on in his creation from beginning to end. I will end it here because the very essence of the Creation of time and the world is to give all free will in their decision. The question is did Eru know what he was doing from setting up the ground rules from start to finish? Thus the creation of time, free will and all are an integral part of the whole and the whole is of Eru. I've gotten kind of off subject here because my Eru example reflect my personal beliefs in the higher being of our world. But as I've said before, the parallals are unavoidable. Talk about muddying he waters.;)

[Flame of Utumno]

To get to the truth of the matter, I think we should focus more on what Tolkien himself would have answered if he were alive to answer this for himself.

Whether Iluvatar was almighty or not, depends on whether Tolkien intended him to be that way. Did Tolkien really model Iluvatar on the Catholic God that he himself so fervently believed in? If so, then all our problems are solved - just open up a Catholic theology book on the nature of God, goodness versus evil etc.

In this whole topic, it is only Tolkien's opinion that really matters, becuase only Tolkien knows the true nature of Iluvatar. Ours is simply speculation of what we think Tolkien intended.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Flame of Utumno
To get to the truth of the matter, I think we should focus more on what Tolkien himself would have answered if he were alive to answer this for himself.

Whether Iluvatar was almighty or not, depends on whether Tolkien intended him to be that way. Did Tolkien really model Iluvatar on the Catholic God that he himself so fervently believed in? If so, then all our problems are solved - just open up a Catholic theology book on the nature of God, goodness versus evil etc.

In this whole topic, it is only Tolkien's opinion that really matters, becuase only Tolkien knows the true nature of Iluvatar. Ours is simply speculation of what we think Tolkien intended. I agree with you oh great Flame... but, these threads are mere speculation as to our own beliefs absent direct proof to the contrary from the author. In this case, it appears that there is no definitive statement from the author and the rest of us have "speculated". Speculation is the cornerstone of many insightful and enlightened discussions.;)

[Walter]

And still I think that "open up a Catholic theology book on the nature of God, goodness versus evil etc would not bring us much further, if at all.

[Snaga]

Whether Iluvatar was almighty or not, depends on whether Tolkien intended him to be that way. Did Tolkien really model Iluvatar on the Catholic God that he himself so fervently believed in? If so, then all our problems are solved - just open up a Catholic theology book on the nature of God, goodness versus evil etc.

Flame, I think it would be of interest to know this. I think that Read-Wryt would probably be able to furnish quotes from some of JRRT's letters to show that he was not looking to have the cosmogony directly derived from Christianity - he wanted to create something for himself. (Or indeed anyone else with a copy...)

I'd argue though, that the best source is the text itself. Because ultimately what the author intended to create comes second to what he actually created! I daresay there are lots of people who know more about literary theory than me who can tell me what -ism that is!

Nonetheless it does help sometimes to know what was in the authors mind. I think in the preface to my copy of Sil, JRRT writes that its concerned with 'Fall, Mortality and the Machine'. And I'd speculate:D that you can't fall without starting off basically good.

[Grond]

Posting, posting, posting. Get them doggies posting... get them doggies posting... Rawhide.

Just to get it to the top so others may see it. Here is the premier thread on Free-will versus pre-destination. :)

[Maedhros]

What, Melkor, that despicable Vala who killed my grandfather is evil by nature certainly. Wait, didn't he come from the though of Eru like the other Valar? Hmmmm. Could it be that Eru "wanted" Melkor to be "bad" and do all those terrible things? For how could we appreciate the beauty and the splendor of the elves if we had not the desolation and destruction of the orcs.
It doesn't matter, because Melkor, I'm coming for you!:)
For I'm Maedhros, eldest son of Feanor, and i will have Revenge.:)

[chrysophalax]

Must I stalk you through every forum before you stand and fight, coward?

[Ancalagon]

Posting, posting, posting. Get them doggies posting... get them doggies posting... Rawhide.

Good plan;)

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
What we do not know is whether Melkor was an embodiment of evil that iluvatar himself already possessed? Was Melkor destined to corrupt, destroy and abuse all in his power because he was the very embodiment of the creators darker nature? Alternatively, did Melkor choose to become this abomination through his own free-will and desires? Did he create envy, jealousy and lust by design or was it simply fate instilled and woven into his fabric from the beginning?

Have a crack at that one!

I beleive that Iluvatar created Melkor to become exactly what he became.

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

"no theme shall be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me."

Hmmm..seems to me that all of the music reflects the nature or Iluvatar. The disruption in the theme caused by Melkor was part of Iluvatar's plan. The disruption may have been unpleasant for some, but it was no accident or coincidence. Melkor did not harm the theme, he enriched it.

Ilúvatar said again: 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.'
"May seem that he himself devised?...hmmm...Sounds to me like the Ainur were no more than Iluvatars intruments.
''And thou Melkor wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to it's glory"...Hmmm...secret thoughts? Secret from whom? Must be the other Ainur...Must be Eru doesn't want them to know the dark things that he build within Melkor, or the dark things that are to come into Melkor's mind.


************************
Here's stuff that isn't back up but only my opinions about Iluvatar.
I think that Iluvatar was an artist, what he created was deep and complex, just as was he, he was a lone artist in a void that he had the pleasure of filling with whatever he "felt" like filling it with. Is there were no evil in the world it would be quite simple, and boring to the observer. A Great artist can express feelings through something that can be experience with the senses of others. Look at how much you enjoy The creations of Eru, and tell me that they are not a great work of art. Or tell me that they are bereft of feeling, or that they are boring or shallow. Now if the story of all that came from Iluvatar were filled with singing elves and peaceful men, and never a war or sorrow beyond natural death(if even that existed)...how good would this story be? Lame art indeed!...Eru was a great artist and therefore his creations were filled with many things pleasant of heaven and torturous as hell...all for richness and spice.


PS: Awesome topic by the way...:D

[Grond]

Melkor sprang from the thought of Eru. He is a part of the collective. He has been assimilated from the Beginnings of Time. He is the Greatest of the Borg. :)

But seriously, I see that I have a new ally in Confusticated. If you'll read this thread in its entirety Confusticated, you'll see I'm totally on your side. :);)

[Nóm]

I will read this entire thread Grond, after I get some sleep. I look forward to the hearing the reasoning of those who do not agree with us....because I can not imagine why someone would not think as we do about this.


Well I have read it now... I didn't hear much that impressed me from the other side...There was One poster in particular who did put up a good argument and tomorrow I will see If I can find a way to "Take a crack at it"..as Ancalagon said..:D

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Melkor might be considered by some, a 'Patsy'. He played out Iluvatars part for him to the letter. His (Melkor) was the fate of creating discord because he was the incarnation of one aspect of Iluvatars persona.

I stand by my first post on the matter.

[Nóm]

Ancalagon I agree, and that fits it perfectly my with Iluvatar the artist idea.

[Ithrynluin]

I'll have to go with the evil by will thing.I just cannot imagine Iluvatar having a darker side,which was "materialized" in Melkor,so I have to say that evil was Melkor's own "invention".
This is just an opinion,I have no arguments to back this up (nor the energy to read this whole thread...whoops,shouldn't have said that out loud:o :D )

[Lhunithiliel]

THIS POST IS GOING TO BE VERY LONG,
For which I apologize!

This is one of the MOST INTERESTING topics I have ever read!
IMO, what makes it SO interesting is that the question asked will HARDLY EVER get an answer!
To discuss about “evil” and “good” is inevitably to express PERSONAL views and opinions. For NOONE can convince ANYBODY else by providing some “universal” truth. Such “universality” simply can NOT exist…
The whole universe, as perceived by the human mind, is built upon a model of an existing contradiction of categories – ex: “good” vs. “evil”, “white” vs. “black”, “right” vs. “wrong” etc…
It all depends WHICH side one is on – then one would call HIS side the “right”, the “good” the “white” and that of the opponent – all the contrasting items: “wrong”, “evil”, “black”…

As this discussion was started long ago, and me being a newcomer, I took the liberty of making a summary review of the thread and it has proved my point.
Here how it has been so far:
It started with the first sensible and strong argument, provided by:
----------------
Grond:
Those were not traits he wished upon himself. They were bestowed by none other than the Big Guy, Eru. And Eru did it for a reason. There aint no yin without yang. There aint no good without evil. For every rose, there's a thorn. For every elf, there is an orc. In the Big Picture, it's called "Balance”.
----------------
Excuse me if I’d sound dull by simply agreeing with Grond, but I can NOT find ANY other truth than this one!

Then came:
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Gothmog:
I only argue the point of did Melkor have a choice?……In my view he did. Yes he was Iluvatar's instrament, but so were all the Ainur. He did have a great deal of the Dark Side of Illuvatar in his make-up but so did other Ainur

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite
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With which we came to the point that whatever “good” and ‘evil” are, they both were created by Eru/God and the Ainur, Melkor including, only acted as they were “pre-envisaged” by Eru. Their “will” of acting was only a consequence – not an initial position.

But when the discussion escalated onto the level of “Could Melkor be paralleled to Satan?” came:
--------------------
Walter:
As for the topic: Did anyone mention already, that in the Christian lore, one of the first images that are drawn is that of Satan as the fallen angel? And one of the basic things that have been discussed ever since is whether he has/had a free will. And whether he's evil by will or evil by nature.
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Out of this came the statement:
Beren Erchanion
Because he was loving Iluvatar so much that he wanted to create something from himself to Iluvatar, a gift...
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Which I could strongly op