Debate: Gandalf's Road

[Gothmog]

I have been asked to post the question for a one to one debate between ithrynluin and gate7ole.

This is a question that has intrigued me for some time.
`There is a way that we may attempt,' said Gandalf. `I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it. But it is not a pleasant way, and I have not spoken of it to the Company before. Gandalf talking to the company about Moria.

Now considering what happened while they were in Moria, why did Gandalf think from the beginning that this road should be tried? What would cause This path to spring to his mind at that time?

The question for the debate therefore is:-
Was Gandalf "Told" to go to Moria so that the Balrog could be removed from Middle-earth?

The debate will begin 18 March and run for a maximum of Two weeks until 1 April. It can be ended early at the request of both parties.

[gate7ole]

I thank Gothmog for picking an interesting topic for our debate.
I also thank Ithrynluin for having this debate with me.

For my case, I choose the affirmative:
that Gandalf was "Told" to go to Moria so that the Balrog could be removed from Middle-earth.

[Ithrynluin]

I would also like to extend my gratitude to Gothmog for going through all the trouble.:)

My side is the following: Gandalf was not "told" to go to Moria. This was of his own making.

I look forward to having this debate with you gate7ole, no matter what the outcome might be! :rolleyes: :p

[gate7ole]

First, let us consider the undeniable fact:
Gandalf (as well as the others) did not know that a Balrog existed in Moria, as shown by this:
Gandalf: “But I would not lead you into Moria if there were no hope of coming out again. If there are Orcs there, it may prove ill for us, that is true. But most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of Five Armies. The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar; but there is a hope that Moria is still free.”
Besides, Gandalf would not jeopardize the mission only for an indirect purpose – to remove the Balrog from Moria. So, we safely also reject the possibility that Gandalf had in mind to deal with the Balrog.

Thus, we have two possibilities left. Either Gandalf was “meant” to do this by a higher power, (which is my case), or Gandalf only made logical thoughts and decided that Moria was the safest of the remaining roads (which will probably will be the case of my most able opponent).

Since the topic was cleared a bit, let’s see what Gandalf says about the road to Moria:
There is a way that we may attempt,' said Gandalf. `I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it. But it is not a pleasant way, and I have not spoken of it to the Fellowship before.
Gandalf thought of the beginning the road through Moria. Before the failure at the Redhorn Pass. Probably before even deciding which route the company would take. And yet, he did not speak of it to the company. It was an inner thought only told to his best friend Aragorn. Was it a foresight? Was it a message from the Outer World? We can’t be sure. It might also be Gandalf’s precaution.
But then comes another quote this time from Aragorn:
Aragorn: “I will follow your lead now – if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware”
Now, this one is much stranger. I could accept one person having personal thoughts about Moria. But two? And the second one, giving no particular reason? Aragorn’s thoughts seem definitely as a foresight about the events to follow in Moria. He seems to perceive Gandalf’s fate (and also sacrifice), like Gandalf himself does. But he reacts differently, not willing to let his friend sacrifice himself for something he doesn’t completely understands.
I see those two phrases as hints that the glorious battle of the Balrog with Gandalf was a predetermined event, planned by the One, which would result in a side-effect outside the scope of the Fellowship, the removal of the Balrog and the rehabitation of Moria by the Dwarves.

[Ithrynluin]

by gate7ole
First, let us consider the undeniable fact:
Gandalf (as well as the others) did not know that a Balrog existed in Moria, as shown by this:


Undeniable fact? Not in the least. The Balrog's presence was no secret anymore after the dwarves awoke him from his deep sleep. Let us look at a couple of quotes from "The Lord of the Rings":

From Appendix A; Durin's folk:

It came to pass that in the middle of the Third Age Durin was again its king, being the sixth of that name. The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world, though the Shadow in the Forest that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was. All evil things were stirring. The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becoming yearly ever harder to win. Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth. Durin was slain by it, and the year after Náin I, his son; and then the glory of Moria passed, and its people were destroyed or fled far away.

From The Mirror of Galadriel:


'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'
`Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams l saw Durin's Bane,' said Gimli in a low voice, and dread was in his eyes.
'Alas! ' said Celeborn. `We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, l would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.'


The Balrog was roused from sleep in Third Age 1980. Some dwarves managed to escape and deliver this information on the Balrog to their kin, and very very likely to their allies as well (such as Elrond of Rivendell, whose house was in friendly terms with Durin's folk). The expulsion of Dwarves from Moria must have been an event of great magnitude and was very disturbing for the whole of Middle Earth. Many peoples must have heard about it. Gimli clearly says that he KNEW of the existence of the Balrog.

Celeborn says "We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept" - the "we" pertains at least to himself and Galadriel, but I daresay it means the larger population of Lórien.

Gandalf, who was in close friendship and counsel with Celeborn and Galadriel, and with dwarves of Durin's line (especially after he helped Thorin, the king in exile, reclaim his kingdom) must have learned of the evil in Moria by the time he became a companion of Thorin Oakenshield AT THE LATEST, though I'm sure he learned of it soon after it happened in TA 1980.

Gandalf was the leader of the opposition to Sauron. He was constantly on the move, gathering information on the enemy (and that doesn't only mean Sauron). Furthermore, he was a Maia, a powerful being and the wisest of his "kind, learned in all aspects of Middle Earth.

The first quote that you provided

Gandalf: “But I would not lead you into Moria if there were no hope of coming out again. If there are Orcs there, it may prove ill for us, that is true. But most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of Five Armies. The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar; but there is a hope that Moria is still free.”

doesn't point to the fact that Gandalf didn't know of the Balrog. Gandalf did not feel the need to raise any alarm and unnecessarily lower the spirits of the Fellowship. We see that Celeborn and the folk of Lórien believed that the Balrog was sleeping, and this was also Gandalf's belief - this was true, but the Balrog was again stirred from his sleep. Gandalf "saved" Moria as a last resort. If they had to pass through Moria, their hope would be their secrecy and the fact that the Balrog slept and they could go unnoticed. I firmly believe that this was Gandalf's reasoning and his secret thoughts.

Your third quote is:

Aragorn: “I will follow your lead now – if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware”

by gate7ole
Now, this one is much stranger. I could accept one person having personal thoughts about Moria. But two? And the second one, giving no particular reason? Aragorn’s thoughts seem definitely as a foresight about the events to follow in Moria. He seems to perceive Gandalf’s fate (and also sacrifice), like Gandalf himself does. But he reacts differently, not willing to let his friend sacrifice himself for something he doesn’t completely understands.

Aragorn was a descendant of kings, he had the blood of Numenor in him, as well as that of the Elves and Melian the Maia. He was the foster son of Elrond, he was undeniably learned and wise in the lore of the world. He also knew of the Balrog, and there was no need for him to say WHY he feared for Gandalf out loud. They both knew what lurked in Moria, they both knew that it could prove disastrous for them and their quest, but they both clung on to the same hope - that the Balrog would be asleep in the deepest bowels of Khazad-dum, and that they could pass unhindered and unnoticed by anyone. After all, the Fellowship's main ADVANTAGE was in secrecy.

Your second quote:

There is a way that we may attempt,' said Gandalf. `I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it. But it is not a pleasant way, and I have not spoken of it to the Fellowship before.

Gandalf, as the leader of not only the Fellowship, but also the whole resistance to Sauron, was obliged to plan their journey and thouroughly consider all possible routes.

by gate7ole
Besides, Gandalf would not jeopardize the mission only for an indirect purpose – to remove the Balrog from Moria.

But then again, any road that they would take would hold possible dangers. Would it had been safer to go through the Gap of Rohan and be captured by Saruman? From Gandalf's point of view, taking the path through Moria would be an option worth considering since he believed/knew
- that the Balrog was asleep
- that the Orcs were more or less driven from that part of the Mountains
- that Moria was the most secret of all possible paths that they could take

The only drawback to that path would be the fact that it was unpleasant, and the slight uncertainty regarding the Balrog.

Gandalf DID NOT allow for the option that he would have to confront the Balrog (and possibly perish in the attempt) too strongly. For the very reason that you state - this would jeopardize the quest. As I have said, he counted on secrecy (due to the small number of persons in the Fellowship), speed and the fact that the Balrog was asleep, to the best of his knowledge.

[gate7ole]

Let’s look at the initial reaction of the Fellowship:
From The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
'Ai! ai! ' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come! ' Gimli stared with wide eyes. `Durin's Bane! ' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face. 'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.'
Legolas was surprised. Gimli understood that this one was Durin’s Bane, but didn’t mentioned it as Balrog. And Gandalf says “Now I understand”.
What did you understand at this exact time? Nothing else than the existence of a Balrog in Moria.
You say that the identity of the Balrog was known to the dwarves and from there to the Elves of Rivendell (although I would say to the elves of Lórien). But this is not proven by any quote you provided. They only knew of Durin’s Bane. What it was, I don’t think that anyone encountering it would have survived to mention it. Furthermore, though the dwarves had fought with Balrogs during the First Age, they were not immortal as the elves and the knowledge of the Demons of Fire might have perished through the thousands of years (or at least it would make impossible for a dwarf to identify a Balrog).
by Ithryluin
Gimli clearly says that he KNEW of the existence of the Balrog.
Celeborn says "We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept" - the "we" pertains at least to himself and Galadriel, but I daresay it means the larger population of Lórien.
No, Gimli doesn’t say this. He clearly says that he recognized Durin’s Bane. And Celeborn knew only of a terror that slept, and not what this terror was. From the quote you mentioned:
Celeborn: But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, l would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you.
It is obvious from all these that the existence of an evil creature was known, but not the fact that it was a terrible Balrog. Everyone seemed surprised by this revelation and shocked. As Gandalf said: “Now I understand” why the Dwarves were so easily defeated, since their foe was far too strong for them.
by Ithryluin
Gandalf was the leader of the opposition to Sauron. He was constantly on the move, gathering information on the enemy (and that doesn't only mean Sauron). Furthermore, he was a Maia, a powerful being and the wisest of his "kind, learned in all aspects of Middle Earth.
Yes, he was a Maia, but incarnate:
From the UT: Istari
For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience.
…
They must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh
He might err, and in fact he did err, (e.g. he didn’t indentify the Necromancer as Sauron from the beginning).
Concluding the above, the Balrog was a surprise to Gandalf.

Let’s come back to Celeborn’s words.
Celeborn: One would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.
It seems folly to Celeborn (a wise elf).
There is also the quote of Aragorn which I repeat here:
Aragorn: “I will follow your lead now – if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware”
Both don’t understand Gandalf’s motives. They seem that this was not the best of the available choices. Aragorn indeed follows Gandalf not because he thinks that Gandalf’s plan is good, but because he failed previously at Caradhras.
Also, it is not a matter of who is wiser. All of them were wise enough to choose the best of the alternatives. Yet, Gandalf was the only one to differ in his opinion.
You say that Gandalf’s reasons for choosing this path were:
by Ithryluin
- that the Balrog was asleep
- that the Orcs were more or less driven from that part of the Mountains
- that Moria was the most secret of all possible paths that they could take

The only drawback to that path would be the fact that it was unpleasant, and the slight uncertainty regarding the Balrog.
I don’t agree with the knowledge of the Balrog, but even so, a Balrog would not be a “slight uncertainty”. Had he known it, Gandalf would most probably not have chosen this way, inside the lay of a Balrog (which is described by Legolas as the worst of elf-banes).
And indeed this foresight of a terrible evil dwelling in Moria came to both Aragorn and Gandalf. To Gandalf it came as a sense of duty which he had to accomplish. To Aragorn it came as a warning for his friend.

by Ithryluin
Gandalf DID NOT allow for the option that he would have to confront the Balrog (and possibly perish in the attempt) too strongly. For the very reason that you state - this would jeopardize the quest. As I have said, he counted on secrecy (due to the small number of persons in the Fellowship), speed and the fact that the Balrog was asleep, to the best of his knowledge.
Of course, he counted in secrecy. No doubt about it. Because he did not “plan” to kill the Balrog. It came as a duty when he confronted it. It was “meant” that he would deal with this source of evil for ME and get rid of it.

[Ithrynluin]

You say that the identity of the Balrog was known to the dwarves and from there to the Elves of Rivendell (although I would say to the elves of Lórien).

No, much more likely the Dwarves communicated this to Rivendell, since Lothlórien was a secluded land and they had not had dealings with the Dwarves since the Dark Ages. The Elves of Lorien must have learned this from Rivendell, or they witnessed the event (from afar) themselves (e.g. the flight of the Dwarves from Moria, which was nearby).

But this is not proven by any quote you provided. They only knew of Durin’s Bane. What it was, I don’t think that anyone encountering it would have survived to mention it. Furthermore, though the dwarves had fought with Balrogs during the First Age, they were not immortal as the elves and the knowledge of the Demons of Fire might have perished through the thousands of years (or at least it would make impossible for a dwarf to identify a Balrog).

The Balrog didn't kill everyone, some fled. I believe that at least SOME of these caught a glimpse of the demon as it ruined the mighty dwarf realm. You must remember that the Balrog, however great, was only one being, while there was a throng of dwarves in that blissful kingdom. The Balrog can't have managed to kill everyone who saw it. That would be a very far-fetched assumption.

Regarding the fact that the dwarves aren't immortal and that Gimli couldn't have known about the Balrog:
The Dwarves, like any other sentient race of Middle Earth, must have kept journals or annals of some sort, so that they could pass their culture down to the next generations. A good example of this is the "diary" found in the Chamber of Mazarbul (which means "the Chamber of Records").

From "The Bridge of Khazad-dum"
...but beside the shattered lid of one there lay the remains of a book.
At last Gandalf looked up. 'It seems to be a record of the fortunes of Balin's folk,' he said. `I guess that it began with their coming to Dimrill Dale nigh on thirty years ago: the pages seem to have numbers referring to the years after their arrival. The top page is marked one – three, so at least two are missing from the beginning. Listen to this!

This is proof enough that the Dwarves kept extremely accurate accounts of their existance and enterprises.
Their expulsion from Khazad-dum, a realm which was established by the very father of Dwarves (Durin I), would be an event of uttermost importance and therefore well worth remembering. Even if they didn't know the true identity of the Balrog (a Maia, etc.), they could have obtained that knowledge from the Last Homely House where many High Elves dwelt.

Also, keep in mind the strange tales that the Dwarves had regarding reincarnation:

From Appendix A: Durin's Folk
There he lived so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Elder Days had passed, and his tomb was in Khazad-dûm; but his line never failed, and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world.

From The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
'Ai! ai! ' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come! ' Gimli stared with wide eyes. `Durin's Bane! ' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face. 'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.'

Legolas was surprised.

Surprised? More like TERRIFIED. What is strange about that? Anyone would be scared to be confronted with as menacing a figure as the Balrog was, whether they knew about its existence or not.

Gimli understood that this one was Durin’s Bane, but didn’t mentioned it as Balrog.
No, Gimli doesn’t say this. He clearly says that he recognized Durin’s Bane. And Celeborn knew only of a terror that slept, and not what this terror was. From the quote you mentioned:


Let's be reasonable here for a moment. Would Gimli really have to call the Balrog "Balrog" for us to believe that he does indeed know what the Balrog is? He calls it "Durin's bane" just like his kind has called it for centuries. That doesn't mean that he doesn't know that the Balrog was in Moria or that he doesn't know what it is.

The same goes for Celeborn. He doesn't have to say outright what this terror is, for us to be 100% sure that he knew this to be a Balrog.

From "The Mirror of Galadriel"
'Alas! ' said Celeborn. `We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again,...

Celeborn subtly points to the fact that he knew of this terror before. The Dwarves might not have known that this was called a Balrog, but from their descriptions the Eldar could easily perceive this "Durin's bane" to be a Balrog, a deadly enemy of theirs from the Elder days.
Furthermore, Celeborn and Galadriel passed into Eriador before the end of the First Age, and they lived near Moria - first in Eregion and then in Lórien. Galadriel passed through Moria herself. Celeborn and Galadriel are among the greatest of the Eldar, and they could have perceived the coming of the Balrog to Moria after the breaking of Thangorodrim. Just like Galadriel perceived the evil presence of Sauron East of the Misty Mountains.

And Gandalf says “Now I understand”.

This doesn't by any means rule out the possibility that Gandalf knew of the Balrog.

From "A Journey in the Dark"
Gandalf: 'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.'

Yes, there sure are. One of them is the Watcher in the Water that they witnessed earlier. Another is the Balrog that is sleeping in this "deep place of the world" and Gandalf could have been well aware of another of these things that are "older and fouler than Orcs" - the Balrog.

From "The Bridge of Khazad-dum"
Gandalf raised his head and looked round. `They seem to have made a last stand by both doors,' he said; 'but there were not many left by that time. So ended the attempt to retake Moria! It was valiant but foolish. The time is not come yet. Now, I fear, we must say farewell to Balin son of Fundin. Here he must lie in the halls of his fathers. We will take this book, the Book of Mazarbul, and look at it more closely later. You had better keep it, Gimli, and take it back to Dáin, if you get a chance. It will interest him, though it will grieve him deeply. Come, let us go! The morning is passing.'

Really Gandalf, and why is that? Perhaps because the dwarves had not the power to defeat this terror by themselves? A much greater power had to enter Moria, one that was coëval with the Balrog (and Gandalf was it) and of the same order as the Balrog.
Gandalf knew this well enough. However, his hopes still relied largely on the assumption that the Balrog was sleeping and that it would not endanger the Fellowship.


Concluding the above, the Balrog was a surprise to Gandalf.

From "The Bridge of Khazad-dum"
Suddenly at the top of the stair there was a stab of white light. Then there was a dull rumble and a heavy thud. The drum-beats broke out wildly: doom-boom, doom-boom, and then stopped. Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company.
`Well, well! That's over! ' said the wizard struggling to his feet. `I have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed. But don't stand here! Go on! You will have to do without light for a while: I am rather shaken. Go on! Go on! Where are you, Gimli? Come ahead with me! Keep close behind, all of you!'


Gandalf doesn't seem too surprised here does he now, despite the fact that he has "met his match" which could hardly mean anything else than a fellow Maia.

Let’s come back to Celeborn’s words.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Celeborn: One would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems folly to Celeborn (a wise elf).


It seemed folly to Celeborn because now he knew that the Balrog had been awakened again, as opposed to

We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept

Celeborn was also very biased and bitter concerning dwarves and their ways. He had a "natural" disliking of Moria, Balrog or no Balrog. He refused to pass through it in the Second Age.

Gandalf would not have gone to Moria, if there was no chance of coming out, and if he had known that the Balrog was roused from sleep.

Galadriel quickly rebukes Celeborn for saying that because neither Celeborn nor anyone else knew Gandalf's full mind and his secret hope:

`He would be rash indeed that said that thing,' said Galadriel gravely. `Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose.

[Ithrynluin]

I am sorry, but my previous post was too long, and I had to continue in a new one.:)

Of course, he counted in secrecy. No doubt about it. Because he did not “plan” to kill the Balrog. It came as a duty when he confronted it. It was “meant” that he would deal with this source of evil for ME and get rid of it.

No he definitely didn't plan to kill it, but to avoid it (and this was not impossible since the Balrog was thought to be asleep). It was not "meant" for him to do it. When it became obvious that the Balrog was awaken, Gandalf had to confront it, because he was the only one of the Fellowship powerful enough to take on a Maia.

Letter #156 says it all:

Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and [B]all his mission was vain[B]. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

Gandalf's plans had gone amiss - the Balrog was alas! not asleep as he had secretly hoped (and Moria was after all the only path the Fellowship could take with hope of success), and he faced it because he HAD to. He gave up his personal chance of success but saved the Quest from failing.

[gate7ole]

by ithrynluin
Regarding the fact that the dwarves aren't immortal and that Gimli couldn't have known about the Balrog:
The Dwarves, like any other sentient race of Middle Earth, must have kept journals or annals of some sort, so that they could pass their culture down to the next generations. A good example of this is the "diary" found in the Chamber of Mazarbul (which means "the Chamber of Records").
Do you really believe that after 5000 years, there would still be writings about Balrogs? You know, time makes things be forgotten. Also let me remind you that only the dwarf realms of Nogrod and Belegost fought with balrogs during the First Age and even if they kept writings about them, they must have perished at the War of Wrath. I don’t think they decided to rescue them, since their first priority would be their hoards!
Anyway, the dwarves of Moria had never fought with Balrogs and it is very possible that they didn’t have any idea what the Durin’s Bane was. And to persuade you on this matter:
Letter #144
It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is – and doubtless Gandalf.

Gimli did not know, by Tolkien’s own words. Not any other dwarf, dead or alive. Thus, if the dwarves did not know, no one could know, since the Balrog had only encountered dwarves since he awoke.
by ithrynluin
About Legolas: Surprised? More like TERRIFIED. What is strange about that?
About Celeborn: The same goes for Celeborn. He doesn't have to say outright what this terror is, for us to be 100% sure that he know this to be a Balrog.
About Gandalf: This doesn't by any means rule out the possibility that Gandalf didn't know of the Balrog.

There is a possibility that the Wise had perceived the nature of Durin’s Bane. But this is NOT shown by their remarks. Everyone seems surprised. Legolas, you say is terrified. But if he knew that a Balrog existed in Moria, wouldn’t he except to see it, and so not be so terrified? Or if he was so scared of it, wouldn’t he be strongly against Moria? I don’t see either behaviour.
Gandalf, you say is not surprised. Can’t it be that he doesn’t want to seem surprised by the rest of the Fellowship? He clearly states that he “now understands”, which you fail to explain. If we don’t accept the meaning of clear sentences, I doubt that we can reach somewhere. Why not accept the things as written and search for far-fetched explanations?
Anyway, I won’t continue this whole sub-debate about whether the Balrog was known to exists by Gandalf or not because a. I have made my point and b. it is not the directly involved in my case (and you haven’t used to prove your case either).

by ithrynluin
Gandalf's plans had gone amiss - the Balrog was alas! not asleep as he had secretly hoped (and Moria was after all the only path the Fellowship could take with hope of success), and he faced it because he HAD to. He gave up his personal chance of success but saved the Quest from failing.
Of course! I agree completely (expect the Balrog part). He sacrificed himself to save the Quest. But does this prove either case? Does this show whether he was told to do so, or was a logical decision? No. We must search deeper for this.

Letter #156
The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned.
…
He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure.
Look at the highlighted statement. Gandalf the Grey was not strong enough to confront Sauron. The crisis was far more serious than the Valar probably expected. The only non-fallen Istar, Gandalf had to be enhanced, by Ilúvatar of course. This enhancement would come with the physical death of Gandalf. Also, he would have to prove once more that he deserved this, and so he did by sacrificing himself.
The Authority had taken his plan and enlarged it. Is it that the Authority had decided this action at the moment of the failure? In the exceptional cases of Ilúvatar’s intervention in the events of Ea, it would fit better that the events were in a way predetermined. Let’s look at one of these actions, the fall of Numenor:
UT: Drúedain
At the time of King Aldarion the Mariner are mentioned the Drúedain, who were ever noted for their strange foresight, were disturbed to hear of his voyages, foreboding that evil would come of them, and begged him to go no more. Bu they did not succeed, since neither his father nor his wife could prevail on him to change his courses, and the Drúedain departed in distress. From that time onward the Drúedain of Númenor became restless, and despite their fear of the sea one by one, or in twos and threes, they would beg for passages in the great ships that sailed to the North-western shores of Middle-earth. If any asked "Why would you go, and whither?" they answered: "The Great Isle no longer feels sure under our feet, and we wish to return to the lands whence we came."
We’re talking about 2000 years before the Fall. Yet, Ilúvatar’s future action was foresighted by the Drúedain.
So, how can we explain the foresights of Gandalf and Aragorn? I understand that Gandalf’s thought of passing through Moria (form the beginning, before even excluding Caradhras), was an urging by Ilúvatar to take the path planned for him: to get rid of the Balrog (which would continue to devastate even after Sauron’s fall) and thus by sacrificing himself to be enhanced in Gandalf the White and fulfil his original mission.

One last quote that proves my case:
from LOTR: Appentix: Durin’s Folk
Thráin: Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.
And this power is Gandalf, prophesied many years ago. And as I said, those things prophesied are a part of the bigger plan controlled by the One.

[Ithrynluin]

I don’t think they decided to rescue them, since their first priority would be their hoards!
Anyway, the dwarves of Moria had never fought with Balrogs and it is very possible that they didn’t have any idea what the Durin’s Bane was. And to persuade you on this matter:


The general impression that I get of Tolkien's dwarves is that they valued and cherished their tradition and heritage. When they transferred to Khazad-dum, as the below quote shows, they would have brought any scriptures of their history with them, along with treasures IMHO.

From "Unfinished Tales; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn"
There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been – not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dûm. The Dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dûm.

Also, I never claimed the Dwarves KNEW what Durin's bane was. But since they had dealings with Rivendell, they might have given the description of Durin's bane to Elrond and the knowledge of the Balrog in Moria would have become more "spread", at least among the Wise.

Legolas, you say is terrified. But if he knew that a Balrog existed in Moria, wouldn’t he except to see it, and so not be so terrified? Or if he was so scared of it, wouldn’t he be strongly against Moria? I don’t see either behaviour.

From "The Bridge of Khazad-dum"
Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew, but his hand fell, and the arrow slipped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear. Two great trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone, and flung them down to serve as gangways over the fire. But it was not the trolls that had filled the Elf with terror.

Legolas was caught off guard and wasn't prepared to see something so horrible (and deadly to the Firstborn). It was quite a natural reaction really IMHO.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, let us return to the true topic of this debate. We got too sidetracked by this whole did-Gandalf-know-of-the-Moria-Balrog business. There is no definite proof either way and we're going in circles. I'll take another approach to this matter.

"Was Gandalf "Told" to go to Moria so that the Balrog could be removed from Middle-earth?"

It is not even that vital whether Gandalf knew of the Balrog's existance. Whether Gandalf knew of the Balrog or not does not prove or disprove the topic in question. The fact remains, that the Fellowship had to choose a safe path to get across the Mountains.

From "The Ring goes south"
'I think no good of our course from beginning to end, as you know well, Gandalf,' answered Aragorn. `And perils known and unknown will grow as we go on. But we must go on; and it is no good our delaying the passage of the mountains. Further south there are no passes, till one comes to the Gap of Rohan. I do not trust that way since your news of Saruman. Who knows which side now the marshals of the Horse-lords serve?'

Each possible road that they could take was extremely risky, full of "perils known and unknown."

They had three options:
1) The Redhorn pass
2) The Gap of Rohan
3) Moria

The possibility of going through the Gap of Rohan they rejected at once, because of Saruman's treachery and the fact that the Ring could easily fall into his hands. They were also uncertain to which allegiance the Rohirrim belonged, which further added to the "riskyness" of this path.

The Redhorn pass seemed like the best possible option, and the most common way which was used to get to the other side - going OVER the mountains (going around them would take too long and going under them was too risky since Moria was abandoned and filled with possible danger).
They attempted it, but failed and were almost killed.

Only one option remained, and that was the dark, gloomy path through Moria. We now CAN assume that Gandalf didn't know of the Balrog there. But the shadow of Durin's bane was heavy upon his mind, and upon Aragorn's (hence the warning that Aragorn directed at Gandalf).

`There is a way that we may attempt,' said Gandalf. `I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it. But it is not a pleasant way, and I have not spoken of it to the Company before.

I will repeate my view on this: Gandalf says "from the beginning", because (as the leader of the Fellowship and one of the Wise) he had to consider all possible options for the Fellowship - which was only right and very prudent. Moria came to him as the path that was the most secret (and secrecy was one of the most important, if not THE most important, factors for the success of the Quest), but very uncertain - including "perils known" (Durin's bane, whatever that is, but it must be a thing of great power to have destroyed the greatest dwarf kingdom!) and "perils unknown" (like the Watcher in the water and possibly Orcs).

So in contrast to Caradhras, Moria in fact held a known peril - Durin's bane, and was as such considered only as a last resort.

So now, my dear gate7ole, I'm going to use the quote "Now I understand" to my benefit. I could have done so from the very beginning but I thought that the more difficult way would be more fun and challenging! Apparently not!:rolleyes: :D

Gandalf is at last faced with Durin's bane and says "Now, I understand" simply because he at this moment realized that this "Durin's bane" was a peril greater than he perhaps thought at first. It could have proven ruinous to the Fellowship and destroy all their hopes, therefore Gandalf had to confront it, to protect mainly the Ringbearer, even at the cost of his own death.

Gandalf was not TOLD to go to Moria, it was a logical and reasonable choice, and quite frankly - the ONLY choice.

Letter #156
The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned.

Look at the highlighted statement. Gandalf the Grey was not strong enough to confront Sauron. The crisis was far more serious than the Valar probably expected. The only non-fallen Istar, Gandalf had to be enhanced, by Ilúvatar of course. This enhancement would come with the physical death of Gandalf. Also, he would have to prove once more that he deserved this, and so he did by sacrificing himself.

The crisis had become too grave when Gandalf realised that this was the Balrog, and that it could destroy the Fellowship. If he fought it, there was the possibility that he would die, and as far as he knew, he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully. So indeed the crisis had been to grave - Sauron was too mighty, even if Gandalf defeated the Balrog, this would change nothing in the end, Sauron would still be victorious.
Gandalf had to protect the Fellowship, and was successful in casting the Balrog off the bridge. When he was hanging from the bridge, he could have climbed back up and went on as Gandalf the Grey. But he knew that this would not be enough in the end. He knew that an enhancment of power was needed if there was to be any hope of success at all.

Letter 156
He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

Letter 156
So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned.

Gandalf, realizing that all was in vain, saw only one option available. To offer himself to Eru as a sacrifice, and basically plead for help, because Gandalf couldn't handle the whole crisis alone, especially after Saruman's betrayal. Gandalf also stayed true to his mission and had done the most for the inhabitants of Middle Earth, and his intentions were pure. Eru knew this and he accepted his sacrifice.
All this was of Gandalf's making, it says HE had conceived it, not Eru or the Valar or anyone else. In the moment of his struggle with the Balrog he had realized that Middle Earth would fall if something major didn't happen soon.

Gandalf the Grey was not strong enough to confront Sauron.

Gandalf the Grey WAS strong enough to successfully steer the oppositon to Sauron, but he could not do it alone. Radagast abandoned the Quest, Saruman betrayed it, and Gandalf the Grey could not face so many evils by himself - Sauron and all his might, Saruman, and who knows what other dangers besides (like the Balrog).

from LOTR: Appentix: Durin’s Folk
Thráin: Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.

And this power is Gandalf, prophesied many years ago. And as I said, those things prophesied are a part of the bigger plan controlled by the One.

This doesn't prove much, it is rather inconclusive actually. Since the whole dwarven kingdom was destroyed by the Balrog, it was pretty obvious to Thráin that "something bigger and better" had to come along before Moria would be free again - wasn't that pretty obvious? Again, this is no "prophesy" but a logical deduction of the sitution in Moria. It's as simple as it gets.

[gate7ole]

from LOTR: Appentix: Durin’s Folk
Thráin: Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.
by ithrynluin
This doesn't prove much, it is rather inconclusive actually. Since the whole dwarven kingdom was destroyed by the Balrog, it was pretty obvious to Thráin that "something bigger and better" had to come along before Moria would be free again - wasn't that pretty obvious? Again, this is no "prophesy" but a logical deduction of the sitution in Moria. It's as simple as it gets.
But please read all the quote. Not only a greater power to come, but also the world to change. I don’t find it such a logical deduction that their ancient realm would be freed with the change of the world. It may be either arrogance by Thráin’s part, or foresight and I choose the second.


You speak correctly about the various paths that had the Fellowship to choose. But logic doesn’t always oppose to fate. It might well be that the most logical way was also the plan of Ilúvatar. So, other proof must be searched.

I also come to the mostly interesting quote “Now I understand”, which seems to me that helps my case, despite your interpretation.
When Gandalf faces the Balrog, it is then understood to him that: a. this infamous Durin’s Bane was a far worse enemy than he expected, b. that he had to sacrifice his life to save the mission and most importantly c. he was meant to confront the Balrog. He now understood all the foresight, the urging to pass through Moria. He understood that he was not alone in this quest, that Ilúvatar was protecting and guiding his quest, which would in a few moments deviate to a side-quest.
by ithrynluin
Gandalf had to protect the Fellowship, and was successful in casting the Balrog off the bridge. When he was hanging from the bridge, he could have climbed back up and went on as Gandalf the Grey. But he knew that this would not be enough in the end. He knew that an enhancment of power was needed if there was to be any hope of success at all.
But would Gandalf the Grey, the only remaining source of power against Sauron risk to abandon the mission? You say that he had a choice to continue with the quest or get the enhancement of Ilúvatar. But IF he didn’t know that Ilúvatar would enhance him, IF he was not “told” this, do you really believe that he would risk such an attempt? How could he be sure that his request would be accepted? No, this is not Gandalf. He would not leave the mission, accept his failure and wait for Ilúvatar’s possible intervention. He would fight until the end, until he perishes, until all the hope is lost, even though he knew that this would mean his “death”.
But if he was told this, if he had a notion of Ilúvatar’s plan to enhance him, or even if he had a slight foresight that would prove that he was not left alone, that he was guided, then yes, he would sacrifice himself, since then the possibilities of his enhancement would be far greater.

Letter #156
…as Gandalf's conversation with Frodo: 'behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker's'
I don’t think that we should explain every action of the people involved in the WoR as being urged by this “something else” referred to the above quote, but at least in those exceptional cases, we should do so.
Of course it was definitely a decision of Gandalf, as it was Frodo’s decision to take the ring (based on his idiosyncrasy and feeling of duty). Saruman wouldn’t have sacrificed himself. Radagast wouldn’t care. But Gandalf would and did so. Yet, not of folly or despair. But of instinct and foresight.
To try to explain Gandalf’s motives, we should highly consider his sense of duty and dedication to the cause of the mission. I still believe that Gandalf wouldn’t have chosen the defeat of a Balrog against the organization of the resistance against Sauron, and neither did he know of his future enhancement. He hoped for it, but didn’t know it. What did Ilúvatar do was to reassure him.

[Ithrynluin]

But please read all the quote. Not only a greater power to come, but also the world to change. I don’t find it such a logical deduction that their ancient realm would be freed with the change of the world. It may be either arrogance by Thráin’s part, or foresight and I choose the second.

Frankly, I don't understand what you're pointing at. I don't see this as either arrogance or foresight.
I don't take "the world must change" to mean much - just an utterance of hope by Thráin. He hopes the world will change, since Sauron seems to be doing particularly well and that he'll be ruling the whole of Middle Earth soon, if something doesn't change.

You speak correctly about the various paths that had the Fellowship to choose. But logic doesn’t always oppose to fate. It might well be that the most logical way was also the plan of Ilúvatar. So, other proof must be searched.

I never excluded the possibility that Gandalf's plan coincided with Ilúvatar's. It could have easily been so, without Ilúvatar "telling" Gandalf what to do.
The peoples of Middle Earth have free will, and even so, they are always acting out Eru's plan, whether they wish to do so or not. Look at Melkor - he committed all those evil deeds against the inhabitants of ME and he rebelled against Eru, but in the end (after his fall), many of his evil works turned to good, because that was ultimately Ilúvatar's plan. We can say that a "plan" is ingrained in each and every individual, and that plan is acted upon by that individual, even though this person might think this was of his/her own design. So Gandalf might have had this plan or notion of going through Moria "in him", but still he wasn't "told" what to do explicitly.

He now understood all the foresight, the urging to pass through Moria.

What urging?? When only one path remains to be taken, and it IS taken, that can hardly be called an "urging". A "necessity" would be nearer the mark.

b. that he had to sacrifice his life to save the mission

This occured to him on the spot. That's why he says "NOW I understand." Is that so strange? When he saw that this terror was a Maia which would ruin the Quest, don't you think that it was only right to fight it, since he was the only one capable of defeating it? He succeeded in casting the Balrog off of the bridge, but he still knew that this was not enough for Middle Earth to be saved. Therefore he let go of the bridge himself and "resigned" his mission to Eru, pleading for his help - and Eru answered his plea, enhanced his power and sent him back.

But IF he didn’t know that Ilúvatar would enhance him, IF he was not “told” this, do you really believe that he would risk such an attempt?

As a Maia, one close to Manwë and to Ilúvatar himself, Gandalf would know that Ilúvatar would help in times of gravest need. That's why he gave up to the authority who ordained the rules.

I am getting tired of going in circles all the time. As far as I'm concerned, this debate is over. Thank you for debating.

[gate7ole]

The peoples of Middle Earth have free will, and even so, they are always acting out Eru's plan, whether they wish to do so or not. Look at Melkor - he committed all those evil deeds against the inhabitants of ME and he rebelled against Eru, but in the end (after his fall), many of his evil works turned to good, because that was ultimately Ilúvatar's plan. We can say that a "plan" is ingrained in each and every individual, and that plan is acted upon by that individual, even though this person might think this was of his/her own design. So Gandalf might have had this plan or notion of going through Moria "in him", but still he wasn't "told" what to do explicitly.
I would be tricky to explain everything as a plan of Ilúvatar. Everything is a part of his plan, as told to the Ainur in the Ainulindalë, the good and the evil deeds. But there are those times, those few selected moments when Ilúvatar sees that he has to intervene for some reason. At least two times, we know for sure he did, at the drowning of Númenor and at the enhancement of Gandalf.
Here it is not a usual situation where his Children (including the Ainur) act of free will. Gandalf actually offers himself to Ilúvatar, passes the mission to Ilúvatar. I do not think that this was in a sense “normal”. As far as we know, only Manwë was in communication with Ilúvatar. Gandalf was not and he could not have known his thoughts. He could not just sacrifice himself with the hope that he would be enhanced. It would not seem proper. He had to stay with the others and fight with all his powers. The only possible explanation is that he was “told” to do this, to pass himself to the authorities.
Another point that I faintly raised is that with every Ilúvatar’s intervention there would be a kind of foresight - like the Dúnedain of Númenor - and now Gandalf.
As a Maia, one close to Manwë and to Ilúvatar himself, Gandalf would know that Ilúvatar would help in times of gravest need. That's why he gave up to the authority who ordained the rules.
Was Gandalf close to Ilúvatar? I don’t think so. We’re not even sure with which Vala he was close.

This is my concluding post too.
Ithrynluin, thank you for the debate.

[Gothmog]

This debate is now closed. I will sort out Judges and open a new thread for the judgements as soon as possible.