The Flood at the Ford

[Merry]

Is it possible that the rush of water at the ford which protected the Elves at Rivendell, was due to the actions of Ulmo (SP) who was Valar of the seas and oceans? I previously thought that this was down to Elvish magic but after starting the Sil I have changed my mind.

Did he stay on M-E when the others returned?

Am still new to the Silmarillion so please excuse the vagueness of names etc...

[Ancalagon]

Nothing is impossible if it has no explanation. However, I feel that the control of the flow of water was solely controlled by Elrond. I can't remember the quote off-hand, though I know it says somewhere that he was master of all within his realm. The Ring he wore was a source of autonomy to all within his borders.

Although in saying that, I think Arwen borrowed it for a few days and nipped down to the ford to do the washing. Lo and behold, there are black capes everywhere!

[Wesley_Skiddles]

like you described, it means that someone upstream has lifted the floodgates or flushed twice.

Now that I have helped you with your mystery, can you please assist me with my own mystery. It is about a ring I have found. Sincerely.

[Grond]

Were the Ainur to have aided Frodo at the Fords of Bruinen, it would have most likely been the Maia Osse, who helped. While Ulmo holds dominion over all the waters of Middle-earth, his vassal Osse is the one who tends to control the seas that flow around the land mass.

However, Osse nor Ulmo helped at the Fords as was clearly explained to Frodo by Gandalf during Frodo's stay after his incounter with the morgul blade. The subtle insinuation by Gandalf was that Elrond used the power he wielded through the power of his Ring Vilya. If you will remember, Gandalf commented about this and stated that he added a few twists of his own to the show with horses and riders on the crests of the waves.

[LadyEowyn]

Originally posted by Grond
Were the Ainur to have aided Frodo at the Fords of Bruinen, it would have most likely been the Maia Osse, who helped. While Ulmo holds dominion over all the waters of Middle-earth, his vassal Osse is the one who tends to control the seas that flow around the land mass.

However, Osse nor Ulmo helped at the Fords as was clearly explained to Frodo by Gandalf during Frodo's stay after his incounter with the morgul blade. The subtle insinuation by Gandalf was that Elrond used the power he wielded through the power of his Ring Vilya. If you will remember, Gandalf commented about this and stated that he added a few twists of his own to the show with horses and riders on the crests of the waves.

That's what I thought.

[Evenstar]

Yeah, I agree with you all. Gandalf explains to Frodo that Elrond used his power over the region to send the flood. Gandalf even says that he added the horses to it.

[Ithrynluin]

From The Flight to the Ford:

At that moment there came a roaring and a rushing: a noise of loud waters rolling many stones. Dimly Frodo saw the river below him rise, and down along its course there came a plumed cavalry of waves. White flames seemed to Frodo to flicker on their crests and he half fancied that he saw amid the water white riders upon white horses with frothing manes. The three Riders that were still in the midst of the Ford were overwhelmed: they disappeared, buried suddenly under angry foam. Those that were behind drew back in dismay.


The black horses were filled with madness, and leaping forward in terror they bore their riders into the rushing flood. Their piercing cries were drowned in the roaring of the river as it carried them away. Then Frodo felt himself falling, and the roaring and confusion seemed to rise and engulf him together with his enemies. He heard and saw no more.

From Many Meetings:

`Who made the flood?' asked Frodo.
'Elrond commanded it,' answered Gandalf. `The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders. For a moment I was afraid that we had let loose too fierce a wrath, and the flood would get out of hand and wash you all away. There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains.'


How did Elrond get to be in control of a river, which is far more ancient than Rivendell itself?

Would you say that his ability to control it comes from Vilya, the Ring of Air, or purely his own personal greatness? He is a descendant of Melian the Maia, and not a distant one either.

Could all this be some clandestine pact and agreement with Ulmo, the Lord of Waters, who never abandoned Middle Earth?

Why does Gandalf say: "For a moment I was afraid that WE had let loose too fierce a wrath."
Was his role in unleashing the flood greater than the mere conjuring up of shiny white horses?

[JediHobbit]

Yes.

The way I see it is that the ring Vilya did give him extra power, and that he also has some sort of influence because he is considered and Elf lord.

Also, I believe Gandalf's influence is greater than he let on. Gandalf has a habit of downplaying his role in matters.

[BlackCaptain]

Elves have a knack for doing magical things... If you'll recall in the Silmarillion, Finrod Felagund changed shape in the pits of Tol-in-Gorathur and wrestled with Sauron. Luthien was powerful enough to put Melkor to sleep... Galadriel can give you visions through a water holder thing. I think that Elrond, being a very elder and wise elf would have some 'magic' powers...

[Ithrynluin]

The questions still remain largely unanswered.
Instead of just chalking it up to "Elves doing magic tricks" I'd like a more eloquent or complex explanation.

And MorgulKing, Finrod didn't change shape at all, he was only disguised.

[Melko Belcha]

Finrod Felagund changed shape in the pits of Tol-in-Gorathur and wrestled with Sauron.

Morgulking I believe you are confused, in The Lays of Beleriand, in The Lay of Luthien it describes Finrod disguising Beren, himself, and the other Elves to the form of Orcs. But in the pits of Tol-in-Gorathur he wrestled the wolf as himself.

As far as the flood I have no answer.

[Mirabella]

I am inclined to believe Ulmo played some role in the events at the Ford. Elrond was Tuor's grandson, a big favorite of Ulmo's. I can imagine Ulmo taking an interest in Tuor's descendants, helping them if he could. I remember from The Simarillion at least one instance where Ulmo caused a mist to appear over a river, allowing enemies of Morgoth and/or Sauron to escape. Wish I could be more specific here, but it has been a while since I read The Sim.

As for the role Gandalf played...well, he was a Maia, after all, and no doubt had many powers beyond the ones he revealed. It is entirely possible, IMO, that he contributed more to the Flood than the mere conjuring up of watery horses :)

[BlackCaptain]

Whoops... my bad... I know he used some kind of magic

What do you mean by a more 'Eloquont' explanation? What's there to know? Elrond was protecting Frodo, using his power over the river

[Jesse]

It is simple: Elrond was wise and powerful and he helped another Elf control the river. Without his help, Frodo probably would never have survived.