Was the Ring the Ruin of Sauron?

[Maedhros]

The sides are:
Mirabella and Inder: Yes it was.
gondorian45 and jimzeller: No.

The debate begins Saturday 22 at 10 am EST, and it ends Wednesday 26 at 10 am EST.

So, if there are any questions, now is the time.
Good luck to all.

[baragund]

Maedhros,

I am wonding what will be the structure of the debate? Will it be a free-flowing dialogue until either a)we run out of time b) one of the sides yells "Uncle" or c) it becomes obvious the two sides are rehashing the same points? Will it be something more structured where, say, there will be an opening statement by each side, a rebuttal and perhaps closing remarks. Personally, I would prefer the more structured approach, but I'll go with whatever you decide.

Jim Z.

[Maedhros]

Actually, I will leave the structure of the debate to the participants.
I have choosen a 4 day period to avoid the rehashing of the ideas again and again.

[baragund]

Mirabella and Inder,

What is your preference for the structure of our debate? Gondorian and I would prefer the more structured approach. For me, the structured approach works better because I cannot spend extended amounts of time on the computer due to family and work commitments.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Jim Z.

[Maedhros]

Mr Jim, I prefer the more structured approach myself. Take a look at this example: Elladan and Elrohir Debate (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6332).
Hope this clears things up.

[Feanorian]

Opening Statement

The Ring was not the downfall of Sauron, the spirit of Sauron lived on after the Ring though in a reconstituted form. It was because he was a Maiar a spirit created before the very world itself he was one of the original thoughts of Eru Iluvatar, his shadow still existed and thus his malice, evil, and will still lived on, as the evil that Morgoth his master had lingered on through Sauron just as his evil lived on through his undestroyed servants.

When the ring was destroyed, Sauron ceased being a physical being but his spirit, in the form of hatred, jealousy, lust, and the other deadly sins remained in varying degrees in the hearts of all Men. As the fourth age and subsequent ages progressed (I can't recall the reference, but I believe today's society is supposed to be the Sixth or Seventh Age.), the races of Men intermingled, and the spirit of Valinor represented by Aragorn, the Dunedain, and the remaining Faithful of Gondor was gradually diluted. Also the other races that are purer of spirit (elves, hobbits and ents) gradually faded away as the ages passed.

The end result is today's society where the spirit of Sauron is very much alive and well. (Here you can take your pick of examples of the evil that men do today.) This is what makes Middle Earth and the first three ages of the World so alluring to people today. In Middle Earth, it is very easy to identify "the bad guy", and evil is personified by a single being or a single species. Today there is nothing except shades of gray and there is at least a little bit of Sauron and Morgoth in all of us. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

Also the destruction of the Ring also led to the ultimate diminishing of the Elves in Middle Earth (because the Three Elven Rings were rendered useless) which was one of the biggest goals of both Morogoth and Sauron, because it was the Elves who were never willing to come under their domination and also resented their rule which made it so that supreme rule over Middle Earth was almost impossible as long as the elves were still living. Thus the Ring being destroyed was not his fall but in some ways his ultimate victory, forcing the peoples he hated more then anything to diminish and leave the shores that they had lived in and loved allowing evil to live on in the hearts of men.

Quote from The Letters of Tolkien letter #200: (Referring to the Maiar i.e. Sauron, Gandalf, etc)

It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until THE END.

Also

I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination. The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring is sufficiently clear "mythologically" in the present book.
End quote.


Thus as seen every time his physical body is diminished he builds up a new one, however when the Ring was destroyed he lost this ability along with some of his power however he was not destroyed as mentioned above and his evil lived on because he was bound to the world until it's end, so he was never really destroyed and the evil that he so readily sowed found its seed in the hearts of men in Middle Earth who eventually were the only people left in Middle Earth.

In “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age” Tolkien points out:

That Man were “the readiest to Sauron’s will” while the dwarves "proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows". And as we all know no Elf ever turned to the side of the enemy except for Maeglin and even that was in love for one of his kind. Later, in the description of the Black Years, Tolkien describes "In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days....To them Sauron was both king and god..."
These passages illustrate how pliable Men are to Sauron's will. That impact to Men's hearts could not have been vanquished with the destruction of the One they held him as their god. Not all of the men from the east and south were killed thus people bent on Sauron’s wills and plans still existed. At the end of this section, Tolkien describes what happened when the ring was destroyed. He says that Sauron
"...was utterly vanquished and passed away like a shadow of malice..."

I stress the "shadow of malice" as something that eventually permeated all of human society. On the other hand, the dwarves and elves could not be dominated by Sauron's malice however, they all eventually faded from Middle Earth.
[QUOTE][B]

[Inderjit S]

The Ring was not the downfall of Sauron, the spirit of Sauron lived on after the Ring though in a reconstituted form.

The destruction of the ring, rendered him IMPOTENT. It was the only effective way in which sauron could have been destroyed. It was a catch 22-situation, the making of the ring would greatly increase his power BUT the downside was that with the destruction of the ring, his destruction was also possible. Besdies, Tolkien himself hints on Sauron being removed from Arda:

But in after years, he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked with him in the same ruinous oath to the void The Published Silmarillion; Valaquenta

Your theory on Sauron's ill will living on in the hearts if men and Arda is right-but you have applied it to the wrong person. 'Myths Transformed', HoME 10, tells us that Melkor's dissemation of his power into Arda itself, meant that Arda would forever be marred:

Eventually he (Sauron) also squandered his power (of being) in order to take control of others. But he was not prepared to expend so much of himself. To gain domination of Arda Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the pyhsical constituents of Arda-hence all things that were born on earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants, or incarnate spirits, were liable to be stained Myths Transformed; HoME 10

This quote proves two things.

1. It was Melkor-Morgoth's expending of power that led to the shadow or taint on Arda, NOT Sauron's, or very little of it was due to Sauron. Maybe because of his lesser Maiaric powers he oculdn't effect the earth in the way that Morgoth could.

2. Prof. Tolkien himself, states that Sauron had squandered his powers, due to his creation of the rings.

Also:

Sauron however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda...and only spent his (much more limited) power on the rings Myths Transformed; HoME 10

Again, we can see that Sauron had taken a diffrent course from his master, in not attempting to further taint Arda, by creating the Rings of Power, in order do dominate other minds, a strategy which Tolkien calls 'wsier', though not as effective in the long run.

We can also see that in the same essay, Tolkien again hints at the fact that the creation of the ring was part of Sauron's downfall:

Melkor 'incarnated' himself...A vaster and more perilous procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the ring... Myths Transformed; HoME 10

Here we can see that Morgoth's downfall, his incarnation, is compared to Sauron's downfall in creating the ring.

Also the destruction of the Ring also led to the ultimate diminishing of the Elves in Middle Earth (because the Three Elven Rings were rendered useless)

Hm...I don't think so. In fact I think the opposite. The whole point of the creation of the rings, was to hinder, for a time at least, the fading of the Elves. With the creation of the rings, they were able to stay in M-E for a age longer, the Elves were goign to fade anyway, and so the rings merely increased their time upon M-E, as we can see by Eonwe's summons, for all Elves to dwell in Erresea/Aman. The MAIN reason as to why Sauron wanted to create the rings was to subjugate the Elves-

but long he sought to persuade Elves to his service, for he knew the firstborn had the greater power...

But did he achieve it? No.

I think it was more of Sauron's ARMIES that greatly diminished the Eldarin power upon M-E, rather then the rings, as we can see from HoME 5; The Lost Road, a pre-LoTR writing in which the idea of the Ruling Ring hadn't even come into existence:

But it is sung by the Elves that the war with Thu (Sauron), hastened the fading of the Eldar, as was decreed my the gods HoME 5; The Fall of Numenor

So, we can see from this passage that Sauron's armed forces destroyed a large portion of the Elven population, and this is shown by the inability in the T.A to create a for the Elves to create a large realm. And whose to say that Sauron, a Maia if immense power couldn't have controlled a large army anyway?

Besides, even if my theory is totally void, the fading of the Elves id several times decreed eitehr by Eru or the Valar, so we can see that Elven fading was a part of their original nature.

On Sauron effecting men. the 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth explains to us how the stupidity of the forefathers of men, in turning to Melkor worship led to the whole race, barring none being tainted. Andreth even says that due to their worship of Melkor, Eru drastically reduced their life excpectancy. So we can see again, though your theory is right, it is again applied to the wrong person.

On the other hand, the dwarves and elves could not be dominated by Sauron's malice however,

Hm...well according to 'Of Dwarves and men' (HoME 12)

Alas it seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of far Eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones)...came under the shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil

We can see that once again, it is plain that it is MORGOTH'S malice that led to some of the Dwarves turning evil, plus 'Of the Rings of Power' tells us that some Dwarves fought for Sauron.

There also may have been rouge, evil Elves, as 'Quendi and Eldar' (HoME 11) tells us and there were some faded Elven spirits that were corrupted by Sauron.

[Feanorian]

Well Tolkien also hints at the fact that his spirit is linked to the world and will not leave it until the end, as quoted from the letters of Tolkien.

""Tolkien himself hints on Sauron being removed from Arda:

The Published Silmarillion; Valaquenta""

This is very true that Morgoth was the first to stain the world with his evil however he was not the last, the people of the third age did not know who Morgoth was and if they did he was just a past figure the evil that they were under was that of Sauron, the people that held Sauron as their god in the South and East worshipped and served him not Morgoth.

""Your theory on Sauron's ill will living on in the hearts if men and Arda is right-but you have applied it to the wrong person. 'Myths Transformed', HoME 10, tells us that Melkor's dissemation of his power into Arda itself, meant that Arda would forever be marred.""


He did have lessar powers that of course were greatly expanded with the ring, however even without the ring he was the most powerful being in Middle Earth in the Third Age, as Gandalf points out that he is the second powerfulest being in all of middle earth, once again Morgoth was a thing of the past and though his evil greatly assisted and started out Sauron he did not control him.

""1. It was Melkor-Morgoth's expending of power that led to the shadow or taint on Arda, NOT Sauron's, or very little of it was due to Sauron. Maybe because of his lesser Maiaric powers he oculdn't effect the earth in the way that Morgoth could.

He pushed most of his power into the ring however he did not lose his capability of living, at the destruction of the ring he lost the form to regenerate however he still lived on because his shadow was not officially cast into the void by Morgoth.

2. Prof. Tolkien himself, states that Sauron had squandered his powers, due to his creation of the rings.""

Also:

Myths Transformed; HoME 10

""Again, we can see that Sauron had taken a diffrent course from his master, in not attempting to further taint Arda, by creating the Rings of Power, in order do dominate other minds, a strategy which Tolkien calls 'wsier', though not as effective in the long run.

We can also see that in the same essay, Tolkien again hints at the fact that the creation of the ring was part of Sauron's downfall:""

Myths Transformed; HoME 10

""Here we can see that Morgoth's downfall, his incarnation, is compared to Sauron's downfall in creating the ring. ""

The Elves were slowly fading in small groups at time but it was not until the destruction of the ring that all of them lost their bliss, Gladadriel knew that after she passed up the one ring that she would diminish showing her that Frodo had the capabilities inside of him to destroy the ring, this is what she wanted however many of the elves were sad to leave the shores but they had no choice their realms diminished and the age of men was upon them because they could not preserve it any longer without the rings.

"" In fact I think the opposite. The whole point of the creation of the rings, was to hinder, for a time at least, the fading of the Elves. With the creation of the rings, they were able to stay in M-E for a age longer, the Elves were goign to fade anyway, and so the rings merely increased their time upon M-E, as we can see by Eonwe's summons""

The armies of Sauron were greatly increased because of the ring, lets look at the Ring wraiths his greatest assests they were great because of the rings they held or that Sauron withheld they did what he told them because he contolled their rings and they lusted after those the most.


Also I do not believe you can acurately pull from a source that leaves the Ruling Ring out of the picture because it had such a crucial role in Middle Earth

""I think it was more of Sauron's ARMIES that greatly diminished the Eldarin power upon M-E, rather then the rings, as we can see from HoME 5; The Lost Road, a pre-LoTR writing in which the idea of the Ruling Ring hadn't even come into existed""

Yes, the elves were meant for the undying lands however they were free to stay on Middle Earth, as long as they desired/capable of doing so and with their rings being rendered impotent they lost the ability to maintain their lives on Middle Earth because it was quickly becoming the world of men.

""Besides, even if my theory is totally void, the fading of the Elves id several times decreed eitehr by Eru or the Valar, so we can see that Elven fading was a part of their original nature. ""

Once again the men of the Third Age were not familiar with Morgoth they did not hold him as their god, they held Sauron as their god. Men were the most ready to come under evil and after Sauron had them he used fear as an aspect to keep them, they respected and especially feared his might and this is at a time when he hasent possessed the ring for a long while.


""On Sauron effecting men. the 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth explains to us how the stupidity of the forefathers of men, in turning to Melkor worship led to the whole race, barring none being tainted. So we can see again, though your theory is right, it is again applied to the wrong person.""



Im and not familiar with HOME that deep into it, however LOTR does point out that the dwarves proved "tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows"

So it does appear their is some discrepancy about the dwarves.


"There also may have been rouge, evil Elves, as 'Quendi and Eldar' (HoME 11) tells us and there were some faded Elven spirits that were corrupted by Sauron."

Well, as i said I lack the knowledge of HOME but havent you pointed out the whole time that it was Morgoth who did all of these things and not Sauron, so if Sauron was capable of corrupting the elves then his evil was certainly great enough to "taint" middle earth with evil, would'nt you think?

[Inderjit S]

This is very true that Morgoth was the first to stain the world with his evil however he was not the last, the people of the third age did not know who Morgoth was and if they did he was just a past figure the evil that they were under was that of Sauron, the people that held Sauron as their god in the South and East worshipped and served him not Morgoth.

Where is it stated that they didn't know who Morgoth was? Surely the Dunedain of the North and South would've had some recollection of the deeds of their forefathers. (i.e Beren, Hurin). Wasn't the Quenta Silmarillion, just a 'Numenorean Tale'? (thus the 'ludicrous' story on how the sun and moon were formed) and maybe the descendants of the Marachian tribes (Northmen, Rohhirm) and the descendants of Bereg and the Borrim of Eriador would've known. Of course the 'Wild Men' were going to serve Sauron-Morgoth wasn't around and written records among them seems doubtful, though his taint problably still existed in their hearts.
powerful being in Middle Earth [/QUOTE]

EXACTLY MY POINT! So, even with out the ring, he was extremely powerful. He had vast Orcish armies and subdorbinates amongst men before the forgings of the ring, so the forging of the ring, which failed in it's primary mission-to ensnare the Elves, was pretty needless for a already powerful Maia, who was craving power and order, and was the reason for his downfall.

however he still lived on because his shadow was not officially cast into the void by Morgoth.

You aren't just 'cast into the void by Morgoth.' The void is our equivalent of the solar system. Morgoth, who was a incarnate was executed by Namo, and his spirit, nearly powerless, fled to the void. Why wouldn't Sauron's spirit fly to the void, where Morgoth was said to be slowly regenerating, hence the Dagor Dagorath.

The Elves were slowly fading in small groups at time but it was not until the destruction of the ring that all of them lost their bliss,

By all of them, you do mean the Noldor don't you?

Sauron was capable of corrupting the elves then his evil was certainly great enough to "taint" middle earth with evil, would'nt you think?

Sauron was capable of corrupting Avarin fea, who had faded and didn't answer Namo's summons, and thus were already tainted. I'm sorry, I should've made that more clear.

On Morgoths corrption of Arda, the point is, that the damage of men and Arda was already done. Sauorn coudl've alos effectively ruled all the evil men without the rings. He was said, due to his Necromantic skills, be able to enter the bodies of men, and often Kings of the Wild Men, thus ensnaring their people. (HomE 11; Laws and Customs)

[Feanorian]

Let me point out that i was not stating that the Dunedain did not know who he was they surely did, however as you say below the wild men of the south and east most likely did not hold records. Yes his taint did effect their culture, but not that generation this an age later and most of them probably have no idea who Morgoth was.


Where is it stated that they didn't know who Morgoth was? Surely the Dunedain of the North and South would've had some recollection of the deeds of their forefathers. (i.e Beren, Hurin). Wasn't the Quenta Silmarillion, just a 'Numenorean Tale'? (thus the 'ludicrous' story on how the sun and moon were formed) and maybe the descendants of the Marachian tribes (Northmen, Rohhirm) and the descendants of Bereg and the Borrim of Eriador would've known. Of course the 'Wild Men' were going to serve Sauron-Morgoth wasn't around and written records among them seems doubtful, though his taint problably still existed in their hearts.


Well let me point out yet another great achievement of Sauron, with the Ring he was able to persuade the king of Numenor to try and attack the Valar and the Undying lands, the Ring gave him powers that he had not before, the people that he hated most besides the Elves were the Men of Numenor and after them Gondor, the kings of Numenor before the coming of Sauron were very close to the Elves on the shores of the Undying lands and they held the Valar in high reverence. The Ring was powerful enough to corrupt a whole kingdom(except for the faithful)and renounce their god and attack his servants. He would not have been able to do this without the power the ring gave him over the minds and hearts of men.

EXACTLY MY POINT! So, even with out the ring, he was extremely powerful. He had vast Orcish armies and subdorbinates amongst men before the forgings of the ring, so the forging of the ring, which failed in it's primary mission-to ensnare the Elves, was pretty needless for a already powerful Maia, who was craving power and order, and was the reason for his downfall.

This is my mistake, i meant to say cast into the void SUCH AS Morgoth at the end of the Sil, Sauron was linked to world still, he was never ousted by the Valar, once again your knowledge of HOME probably has contradictional evidence but maybe not.

You aren't just 'cast into the void by Morgoth.' The void is our equivalent of the solar system. Morgoth, who was a incarnate was executed by Namo, and his spirit, nearly powerless, fled to the void. Why wouldn't Sauron's spirit fly to the void, where Morgoth was said to be slowly regenerating, hence the Dagor Dagorath.



Yes, i was not referring to the other elves, such as Legalos and his family and the other wood/dark elves. They never had seen the light of Valinor and were very contempt with Middle Earth, however they too eventually either faded or became very secret and seldom hiding themselves from men.



Yes the corupption of Arda had taken place and the damage to men was done, but after Morgoth who was their to rule them Sauron, and as he possibly could have ruled those people without the ring, the power he possessed with the ring allowed him to keep them under his control and not lose them through revolts, his power was greatly increased as seen with the elven rings everything built around those rings flourish so this would be the same case with the one ring however it possessed the evil powers of Sauron causing evil to flourish, a perfect example of this is Gollum. Sauron could not enter the body of every single wild man but with the ring he was through fear.


On Morgoths corrption of Arda, the point is, that the damage of men and Arda was already done. Sauorn coudl've alos effectively ruled all the evil men without the rings. He was said, due to his Necromantic skills, be able to enter the bodies of men, and often Kings of the Wild Men, thus ensnaring their people. (HomE 11; Laws and Customs) [/QUOTE]

[baragund]

Inderjit,

You make an excellent point in that Morgoth was the one who tainted Arda and set the stage, if you will, for the ability to corrupt most living creatures (particularly Men). The Ainulindale from The Silmarillion has a rather moving account of the first battle of Arda between Morgoth and the rest of the Valar. Again and again, the Valar strive to create Arda in a beautifu or pure form and each time it is spoiled by Morgoth.

However, Morgoth did not seem to be alone in his efforts. At the end of the Valaquenta from the Silmarillion, Tolkien writes the following:

"In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void."

This suggests to me that Sauron had a part on the marring of Arda, and had a part in making Men and other creatures susceptible to being corrupted. This supports Gondorian's and my initial argument that Sauron's spirit was reconstitued with the destruction of the One Ring as the element of evil that lives to this day in all of us.

Now the forging of the One Ring seemed to greatly enhance Sauron's power. Tolkien writes in "Of the Rings of Power and The Third Age" the following:

"...Sauron made One Ring to rule all others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last."

This tells me that the One Ring channeled the power the elves put into all of their rings through the One Ring to Sauron. Not only was Sauron the recipient of the Elves' power, but "...while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them."

The point here is that Sauron was already set in Middle Earth by the initial marring of Arda in which he assisted Morgoth. Middle Earth has had and will always have a pre-disposition to being corrupted for evil. The One Ring was a way to counter the efforts of the remaining elves on Middle Earth to preserve their kingdoms on Middle Earth and to usurp their remaining power. In the Preface to The Silmarillion, Christopher Tolkien describes the efforts of the elves during the Second and Third Ages as a struggle against their "fading", and even describes the elven crafts as a form of "embalming". Looked at it this way, one could argue that the One Ring was the icing on the cake, but, ultimately, not necessary to Sauron one way or the other.

By the way, how do you guys cut and paste quotes form earlier posts?:confused:

[Inderjit S]

Well let me point out yet another great achievement of Sauron, with the Ring he was able to persuade the king of Numenor to try and attack the Valar and the Undying lands, the Ring gave him powers that he had not before, the people that he hated most besides the Elves were the Men of Numenor and after them Gondor, the kings of Numenor before the coming of Sauron were very close to the Elves on the shores of the Undying lands and they held the Valar in high reverence.

No they didn't. From the time of Tar-Ciryatan, the first shadows were seen on Numenor, and by the time that the Numenoreans had started to use the 'Ar' prefix, their counsels were distinctly anti-Eldarin and anti-Valar.

...he forbade utterly the use of Eldarin tounges, and wold not permit any of the Eldar to come to the land...He revered nothing and went not to the hallow of Eru

This quote, taken from 'The line of Elros'; Unfinished tales' was about ar-Gimilzor, the 23rd King, though their anti-Eldar/Valar policy had been going on for a long time before. Once again, we see Saurons hunger for power (perhaps effetced by the ring) affecting his judgment. It is probable that he could've held an evil Numenorean race under his sway, or at least hold some sway over the King, though not the extent that they would attack the Valar, but him could of taken the elven kingdoms of M-E, with his armies and the Numenoreans to boot, and he would've been the most powerul man...er Maia in the world.


Sauron, and as he possibly could have ruled those people without the ring, the power he possessed with the ring allowed him to keep them under his control and not lose them through revolts,

A lot of the Wild Men woudl'nt have dreamed of revolting. Think about it even in the T.A, they still came to his call, even with his diminsihed power and without the ring. Could he have controlled them without a ring then? Yes. He had some Mannish power before the creation of the rings.

To me, the ring was a needless luxury. Sure it boosted his already mighty power, BUT, he could've done a lot of the things that he did, without the ring too, and it was effectively the only way that a Maia of such power could be effectivey be destroyed and made impotent.

[Inderjit S]

By the way, how do you guys cut and paste quotes form earlier posts?

Note the 'Quote' button above where you post. Click
on that and cut and paste the persons message into the box. :)

[Feanorian]

This is true, however never had the thought of attacking the Eldar/Valar come into their head, until Sauron using the powers of the Ring persuaded the King to do so. The men of Numenor were no ordinary men in mind or body, Tolkien points out that at this point they were basicly Eldar. You can see this in their speech, dress, and mind set except for the fact that they were not immortal, however they did have the gift of triple life span.

[B]No they didn't. From the time of Tar-Ciryatan, the first shadows were seen on Numenor, and by the time that the Numenoreans had started to use the 'Ar' prefix, their counsels were distinctly anti-Eldarin and anti-Valar.

I do not believe this was his hunger for power think about it, by what means could the men of Numenor effectivly bound and take Sauron if he was in possession of the Ring? They could not, however they could beat his army and he knew this so he allowed himself to be captured, thats the only way he could take the Ring with him and keep it in his possession. He knew that with the Ring he could take control over the minds of the Kings of Numenor. He hated the Numenors why would he want to rule them, they were still pleasent beings, they did not become wild men after Sauron gained power, he hated them almost as much as he hated the elves, he most likely did not desire the kingship over the men of Numenor. I doubt he could have held such a sway over the king without the Ring cause once again although they were anti-Valar they would not attack without being persuaded to.

Once again, we see Saurons hunger for power (perhaps effetced by the ring) affecting his judgment. It is probable that he could've held an evil Numenorean race under his sway, or at least hold some sway over the King, though not the extent that they would attack the Valar, but him could of taken the elven kingdoms of M-E, with his armies and the Numenoreans to boot, and he would've been the most powerul man...er Maia in the world.

Although he was very powerful without the Ring there is no proof that he could have any control of the men of Numenor without the Ring, they did not desire to attack the Elves of M-E cause although they were untilted to The Undying Lands they little if any desire to go there, and that is why the men of Numenor resented the elves in the Undying lands cause that is what they desired most.

I belive the idea that: "It is probable that he could've held an evil Numenorean race under his sway" is invalid and any other "probable" aspects as well. There is no proof in Tolkiens writing that he could have done any of this without the Ring, just theories. On the other hand it is clearly evident that he did acomplish these feats.

[Feanorian]

Oh, and sorry for that late response I had to work a double shift yesterday and have been busy with my sisters wedding, I will do my best to keep on top of posting.

[baragund]

Another point occured to me that may support the notion that the destruction of the One Ring was not Sauron's downfall. I picked this up while I was browsing another discussion in this forum; "Who was the Mouth of Sauron?".

There is a key phrase in LOTR that says the Mouth of Sauron came on the scene when Barad-dur "...first rose again...". That is a complicated phrase, but it implies pretty strongly that Barad-dur rose (or will rise) multiple times. At the time of the War of the Ring, I believe this tower was rebuilt for the first time. (Please refer to that discussion on full details supporting this position.) Therefore, I think Tolkien was looking into the future a bit by hinting that Barad-dur will rise again and again, even with the One Ring destroyed.

By the way, the Mouth of Sauron is one of my favorite characters from LOTR, even though he only plays a bit part. He is so DELICIOUSLY evil!! It is also one of the most exquisite pieces of narrative in all of Tolkien's works.:D

[Inderjit S]

bit by hinting that Barad-dur will rise again and again, even with the One Ring destroyed.

No-Tolkien hints in his letters that Sauron would never rise again, and that he was the last supernatrual incarnation of evil. As exhibited by 'the New Shadow' (HoME 12). Barad-dur and Sauron would never rise again, as Myths Transformed point out. It's previous fall had been after the Last Alliance, BTW.

[Feanorian]

Well, didnt you yourself make the point that his spirit fled to where Morgoth's was which was slowly re-building, and if his master had the ability could not he have done so or at least come to his senses as a spirit. Tolkien talks about the End, when there will be another battle most likely involving Morgoth and his general Sauron, and if this is true then most points would point to the fact that he was destroyed in body for a time but that his spirit lived on and needed time to recover.


[B]No-Tolkien hints in his letters that Sauron would never rise again, and that he was the last supernatrual incarnation of evil. As exhibited by 'the New Shadow' (HoME 12). Barad-dur and Sauron would never rise again, as Myths Transformed point out. It's previous fall had been after the Last Alliance, BTW.

[Inderjit S]

Tolkien never mentions Sauron in any of Namo's prophecies about the Dagor Dagorath. Though whether they can be taken as canon is debateble.

I doubt whether sauron had the sufficent power to regenerate, Melkor was the most powerful of all the Valar, in his beggining, so his inherent power is many times that of Saurons.

[Feanorian]

Your right he did lose the ability to regenerate into a physical body after the destrucion of the Ring and his spirit became weakened. However, he was not utterly destroyed his spirit fled to his master where he could recover not in body but in mind and spirit. Even as a spirit Sauron could be a very effective force of evil.

[Inderjit S]

**CLOSING QUOTE**

Looking at the question, on wheter the Ring was the RUIN of Sauron, I can safely say yes. Does the question ask if it was the ruin of Arda? NO. Does it ask if it further marred Arda? No. Did it lead to Sauron's destruction? YES.

Sauron without the creation of the ring was powerful enough to hold men to his sway. The Numenoreans, like all other men, got bored of being 'good' and turned to evil. This was an essenital 'fla in their making their free will and ability tolter the music. Tolkien himself says that men will never be a good race, both because of their fall, a.la. 'Athrabeth Finrod ah andreth' and because of their nature, plus the fact that they were born into a marred Arda.

Sauron, in creating the ring, gave people a chance, (however unlikely the chance was) to destroy him. Could they have destroyed his Maiaric spirit to such effectivness without the ring? No. Was the ring is his ruin then? Yes. It was the only effective way in which he could be destroyed.

Thank you, for a great debate, jimzeller and gondorian 45.

[Feanorian]

Did the destruction of the Ring destroy Sauron's body and the ability to regenerate into a phyiscal being? Yes. Did the Ring destroy Sauron's spirit? No. The evil spirit of Sauron lived on in the hearts of men for all of eternity in Middle Earth, and more notable lived on as a Spirit with no body to reincarnate into. After the Ring was destroyed he fled from Middle Earth to regain his spiritual prowess and abilities, and on the day that Sauron's master returns so will so greatest servant though not in body but in spirit, allowing him to once again effect the peoples that he inflicts his evil on........I would like to Thank Inderjit S for a most enjoyable and challenging debate.

[Feanorian]

Also I had a question, when do we find out who won? and also how? will it be on the thread or a PM?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by gondorian45
Also I had a question, when do we find out who won? and also how? will it be on the thread or a PM?

A separate thread will be opened with the sole purpose of judging the debate. Several judges will be selected and a poll may be opened.:)

[baragund]

Inderjit,

Good response on my previous point of Barad-dur rising again and again. I really need to invest in the HOME series and start getting the benefit of all of that insight.:(

CLOSING STATEMENT
I think the question of whether or not the destruction of the One Ring was "the ruin of Sauron" boils down to what interpretation one is most comfortable with in Tolkien's writings.

If one were to take a "literal" interpretation of the accounts in LOTR, it's Appendices and "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in The Silmarillion, one would be led to believe that Sauron as a physical entity was destroyed and that is the end of it. Inderjit made convincing arguments for this interpretation using many references throughout Tolkien's writings

One could also take a more "metaphorical" interpretation, as Gondorian and I have done, that Sauron's spirit is very much alive and well to this day despite his physical manifestation being destroyed by the destruction of the One Ring, and we have pointed out several intriguing passages in "The Valaquenta" and "Of the Rings of Power..." to support this. I would emphasize again the Sauon's and Morgoth's spirit is alive and well and has infiltrated every aspect of Men's society. (One only need to check out the current events in the Middle-East to verify this.)

A good analogy to this "literal" vs. "metaphorical" interpretation could be found in the Book of Genesis. One could believe that God created the world in six 24-hour periods, or one could see it as a metaphor and draw parallels between Genesis and current scientific theory of astronomy, geology, biology, etc. [Wow!! Now that is for getting profound!!]

Finally, thanks to all of you for the debate. I had a great time, but now my wife thinks I am totally weird, what with researching Tolkien in the middle of the night after the kids were put to bed.