Topic List: Discussions And Debates

[Eöl]

This thread is for posting topics for discussion and debates. After Lhun sent me a PM, I thought it was better that everyone SHOULD post here. That way ideas are open to discussion and refinement. I took off "Guild Activities", because we will need something really massive for that!:)

Debate Topics:
Was Turin only influenced by his fate/curse?
The Dunedain knew the ring was in the Shire, so they remained in Arnor to protect it.

Discussion Topics:
Why the Dunedain did not go to Gondor and join their kin.
The beginnings of Hobbits.
Music throughout the ages of Middle Earth.
Live Like Gods - The life of the Valar. Nice one, Lhun.:D
The spiders of Tolkien, and their representation as ultimate evil.
Tolkien's aims in religious material in LotR.

[Eöl]

Ok, I will post the first one. How about a debate on whether or not Turin Turambar is a tragic hero? Comments please!:)

[ms Greenleaf]

Poor Eol (Celebrien) noone is responding... too bad I know so little onthe topic but nevertheless I find him a hero in a tragic way.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Eöl
Ok, I will post the first one. How about a debate on whether or not Turin Turambar is a tragic hero? Comments please!:)
But, Eol, my friend, what ELSE could he be? Comic? ;) :) :D
Let's try this:
"Was Turin's fate influenced only by the curse"?

Mine:

Discussion:
"Why did the Dunedain stay to protect the Shire instead of going to Gondor to join their kin?"

From this comes a debate topic:

"The Dunedain knew that the Ring was in the Shire and stayed in the lands of the ruined Arnor (instead of going to Gondor) in order to guard the Shire from Sauron's spies."

[Eöl]

Good ones, I'll add them to the list, but about the Dunedain debate topic, how would the Dunedain know that the Ring was in the Shire. There is no evidence that they didn't really, but is there any that they did?
But, Eol, my friend, what ELSE could he be? Comic? lol, yes Lhun that's exactly what I was thinking....kidding:D

[Lhunithiliel]

Here is another one:
From HoMe IX - Drowning of Anadune:
Yet it is said that even of those Numenoreans of
old who had the straight vision there were some who did not comprehend this, and they were busy to contrive ships that should rise above the waters of the world and hold to the imagined seas. But they achieved only ships that would sail in the air of breath. And these ships, flying, came also to the landsof the new world, and to the East of the old world; and they reported that the world was round. Therefore many abandoned the gods and put them out of their legends. But men of Middle- earth looked up with fear and wonder seeing the Numenoreans that descended out of the sky; and they took these mariners of
the air to be gods, and some of the Numenoreans were content that this should be so.
Well, now,.... Numenorean ships - FLYING?!!!!!!!
:confused:

Here what this topic be possibly called: "Numenoren ship-building craft"... or sth.similar...
Right?

[Eöl]

VERY interesting! Never seen anything as odd as that I don't think in all that I have read by Tolkien...good topic! Here's another one...How about a discussion about the beginnings of Hobbits, talking about things like possible places they may have come from...

[Beleg]

Actually there is one debate Due about Tùrin's fate on TD (the sister site) which sadly hasn't been started yet.
"Why did the Dunedain stay to protect the Shire instead of going to Gondor to join their kin?"

That's a nice topic for discussion but not for debate.
Although the Numeneorean shipbuilding would be more of a Guild Activity, where one can find facts and such things. I have done some research on that and its no way complete. Sadly i haven't got the HOME books, so i cant look too deeply into them.:(

How about a discussion about the beginnings of Hobbits, talking about things like possible places they may have come from...

My vote goes to this!!! :):)

[Lhunithiliel]

Eol, where is the list? ;)

It's time you make up one and update it regularly so that it can be always in front of our eyes :)

Good topics we are gathering, aren't we!

[Eöl]

That's a nice topic for discussion but not for debate.

Yeah, I reworded it a little bit for a debate topic....It now says "The Dunedain knew the Ring was in Arnor, so they stayed there to protect it." (instead of going to Arnor) Do you think that would work better Beleg? And, Lhun, the list is in the first post of the thread.

[Lhunithiliel]

You know, I am tempted to start one of the topics....

Aren't you?!

Not a debate, because the Aldarion-Erendis debate is coming, but a discussion?

Well?

[Eöl]

Aldarion-Erendis debate? What's that? Anyway, yeah I think my favorite so far would have to be the beginnings of Hobbits...But anyone else who woudl rather do another one, speak up!

[Lhunithiliel]

A very very VERY good and useful thread - forgotten! :(

Anyway, after the "Hobbits"- topic is on the run and the Aldarion-Erendis debate is finishing at latest tomorrow, I would like to take out the discussion topic about the Dunedains.

I will however open it at some of the all-forum sections in order to get more opinions.

Now, with this our "bag" of topics will remain almost empty.
It's time we give some fresh ideas. :)

[Finduilas]

I want to suggest a topic for a discussion. It is probably something which has been discussed before but anyway.
The topic:
'Music throughout centuries'
It is supposed to cover the development of people's approach towards music and its purpose. Initially, in the time of Iluvatar's music, it was a sacred symbol and even a religion/faith. While later on, in the end of the 3rd Age even the Orcs use some kind of music in their preparations for battles.
Well, the main idea of the discussion would be to follow how music's holly essence is being forgotten and underestimated with time.

[Gil-Galad]

Well,the problem is that too few is wriiten about the music.And what is more,without samples it is impossible to talk about music,and I don't know whether Tolkien defined how the music in his books sounds like.I mean he describe it but there aren't any notes written.

[Lhunithiliel]

I'd like to propose a topic. Eol, please, YOU decide where it would fit :)

I'd like to name it: "Live like Gods" ;)

In fact, I suggest to research the "everyday" life of the Gods in Valinor.

[Beleg]

Lhun the idea is good, but first we need to turn our attention towards the recent project at hand-the hobbit information page. Only when it is completed should we start a new project, offcourse as a study team.

[Lhunithiliel]

Sure, my friend! :)
I'm just adding it to the list!

As for the Study Team's current project.... although here is not the right place for this, but I'm waiting for Eol's commands ;).
What part shall I take?
I'd better ask him in the ST-thread.

[Lhunithiliel]

Here is a very good topic for a future debate:
"Was Eowyn really to blame for disobeying Theoden's orders?"
;) ;) ;) :D :D :D
******

Common, people!
Has your inspiration dried out? No more good ideas for good topics for good discussions and debates?

[Mrs. Maggott]

I would like to see the following discussed (not debated): that Tolkien's "spiders" (Ungoliant first, then Shelob) represent ultimate evil for unlike either Morgoth/Melkor or Sauron, they wish to consume everything and therefore remain the only thing in Creation; this is the sole desire of these creatures (two presentations of the same force). Unlike either Morgoth or Sauron, they do not desire slaves or servants or worshippers; they desire nothing less than themselves as the totality of existence.

On the other hand, God (Eru/Iluvatar) has brought Creation into being because of His desire to love and be loved. It is His absolute goodness which permits Hiim to create beings that have the free will and conciousness to reject Him as well as fulfill their destiny of love and worship. Both Morgoth and Sauron retain a certain perverted desire for at least worship and service from others in Creation whereas the Ungoliant/Shelob force desires only itself and rejects and hates all things and creatures external to it. In a way, it is very like the "nothing" in the Neverending Story; it is in fact, a negation of Creation rather than a mere diversion of what was originally intended to that which is desired.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
I would like to see the following discussed (not debated): that Tolkien's "spiders" (Ungoliant first, then Shelob) represent ultimate evil for unlike either Morgoth/Melkor or Sauron, they wish to consume everything and therefore remain the only thing in Creation; this is the sole desire of these creatures (two presentations of the same force). Unlike either Morgoth or Sauron, they do not desire slaves or servants or worshippers; they desire nothing less than themselves as the totality of existence.


This topic is very interesting,and yes,we SHOULD start a discussion about it.What question me most is why Tolkien chose spiders to embody the ultimate evil(is there is such).

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
This topic is very interesting,and yes,we SHOULD start a discussion about it.What question me most is why Tolkien chose spiders to embody the ultimate evil(is there is such).
It may have to do with the fact that as a child or two or three in South Africa, Tolkien was bitten by a tarantula whom he came upon in one of the outbuildings in his "garden" (eumphistic term in that climate). His nurse sucked out the poison out of the wound and he always remembered the pain of the bite, but is quoted as saying that the spider itself left his memory and he had no more than an ordinary aversion to the creatures.

It is probably more than possible that he put the spider out of his mind rather than it just fading away and although he may not have been truly arachniphobic, I am sure that spiders probably embodied painful and fearful memories. Also, if I remember correctly, his son Christopher was arachniphobic, so what better villain for a child's stories (in The Hobbit anyway) than a bunch of real large nasties!

[Celebithil]

I dunno if this is discussion worthy but ill just put it in here. Is the description of the Fall of Gondonlin given in BOLT2 the same course of events that happen in the Silmarillion just in more detail or is it totally different. I some of the exact events leading up to the fall are differently but do you think Tolkien envisioned the battle pretty much the same?

Mrs Maggot which one do you think he would have chosen, you seem to infer that the choice is obvious but I dont know which you are inferring. Would you kindly clarify please.:)

[Lhunithiliel]

I hate doing this :( , but....
This is a thread for submitting your ideas for topics for discussions and debates ONLY! Not for the discussions themselves.
The topic that you have started discussing will be separated into a thread.......***says the evil wraith*** :p

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, since the once enthusiastic member Eol has left the Guild I'll take care of this thread personally and I'll update the lists:

So far what we have prepared for the coming active season:

TOPICS FOR DISCUSSIONS :

1/ The beginnings of Hobbits.

2/ Music throughout the ages of Middle Earth.
It is supposed to cover the development of people's approach towards music and its purpose. Initially, in the time of Iluvatar's music, it was a sacred symbol and even a religion/faith. While later on, in the end of the 3rd Age even the Orcs use some kind of music in their preparations for battles.
Well, the main idea of the discussion would be to follow how music's holly essence is being forgotten and underestimated with time.

3/ Live Like Gods.
The everyday life of the Valar.

4/ The spiders of Tolkien, and their representation as ultimate evil.
Tolkien's "spiders" (Ungoliant first, then Shelob) represent ultimate evil for unlike either Morgoth/Melkor or Sauron, they wish to consume everything and therefore remain the only thing in Creation; this is the sole desire of these creatures (two presentations of the same force). Unlike either Morgoth or Sauron, they do not desire slaves or servants or worshippers; they desire nothing less than themselves as the totality of existence.
On the other hand, God (Eru/Iluvatar) has brought Creation into being because of His desire to love and be loved. It is His absolute goodness which permits Hiim to create beings that have the free will and conciousness to reject Him as well as fulfill their destiny of love and worship. Both Morgoth and Sauron retain a certain perverted desire for at least worship and service from others in Creation whereas the Ungoliant/Shelob force desires only itself and rejects and hates all things and creatures external to it. In a way, it is very like the "nothing" in the Neverending Story; it is in fact, a negation of Creation rather than a mere diversion of what was originally intended to that which is desired.

5/ Tolkien's aims in religious material in LotR.

6/ From HoMe IX - Drowning of Anadune:
Yet it is said that even of those Numenoreans of
old who had the straight vision there were some who did not comprehend this, and they were busy to contrive ships that should rise above the waters of the world and hold to the imagined seas. But they achieved only ships that would sail in the air of breath. And these ships, flying, came also to the landsof the new world, and to the East of the old world; and they reported that the world was round. Therefore many abandoned the gods and put them out of their legends. But men of Middle- earth looked up with fear and wonder seeing the Numenoreans that descended out of the sky; and they took these mariners of the air to be gods, and some of the Numenoreans were content that this should be so.
Well, now,.... Numenorean ships - FLYING?!!!!!!! Let's talk about it!

7/ Is the description of the Fall of Gondonlin given in BOLT2 the same course of events that happen in the Silmarillion just in more detail or is it totally different?
Some of the exact events leading up to the fall are differently but do you think Tolkien envisioned the battle pretty much the same?

8/ How did the Elves reproduce?

*********
TOPICS FOR DEBATES :

1/ Was Turin's fate influenced only by the curse?
*********

This is so far - by 17-th August

More suggestions - most welcome! :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Reading through various sourses...haven't you had the experience to think...: "...Now...I have realized that..."

This is what happens to me often and this is what I suggest - How about such a thread - "I have realized that..."?

Do you find it necessary?

Ex.: I have realized that Tolkien's earliest idea of the mythology he wanted to create was very much influenced by the Greek mythology but later it seems as if he was constantly looking for ways to change it and make it closer to his countrymen and more understandable and more...acceptible to them...

Do you agree?

We could have small discussions on the issues posted in this thread.
For example, the above can be opposed by some that in fact BOLT1 and 2 - mythology "picture" in fact resembles more the Nordic Mythology than the Greek one.

What do you think?

[Finduilas]

Yes, I think it's great if we have that kind of thread. So many times I have come across various "spicy" facts, but they weren't suitable for any thread of ours and I just forgot them later...
I'm sure it is so with everybody. And this will actually help us create a little encyclopeadia which we might organize later into topics...

Anyway, yes, I agree with the thread.:)