Hell [Archive] - THE TOLKIEN FORUM

Rangerdave

03-23-2003, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Eliot
I believe it's a real place. I'm not trying to preach, but you'll end up there if you haven't excepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. You have to ask him to forgive you for your sins.

This I believe is the primary reason that I have turned away from most western faiths. There is a built in elitism that runs through the core of western theology.

Examine the above quote. While I appluad Eliot's faith and devotion for his beliefs, I can also see a bit of antagonism. Christian doctrine states that the only escape from Hell is through the complete submission in Christ. Let me get this straight. Let us for arguments sake say that I lead an honorable, compassionate life, and that the good I do in this world far outweighs the harm: but I reject the notion of Christ. By Christian dogma, I am doomed to everlasting damnation in the fires of Hell.

I find it hard to believe that an all loving and forgiving God would condem my soul simply because I didn't join the club and learn the secret handshake. I am not an athiest, but I am fairly agnostic. I don't really think that any system of faith has it absolutely right. As such, I believe that one should live an honorable life not because of either the threat of eternal damnation or the promise of everlasting reward, but rather as its own reward.

RD

Thorin

03-24-2003, 01:31 AM

My beliefs and comments will encompass many different posts. A methodolical approach you might say.

First of all, I believe that there will be punishment. Not for punishment sakes, but in the process of destruction, some pain will occur. I believe that fire at the end of time will destroy the wicked and God will make all things new (Revelation 20 and 21).

I oppose hell for four reasons of which I will get into them later on: biblical, moral, cosomological and judicial.

The Bible does not support going to a fiery hell at death. This has occured because of the mistranslation of the english word "hell" to represent 3 different hells in the Bible. The belief that when a wicked person dies, his "soul" goes to hell and he burns for eternity is a midieval amalgamation of three different hells into one hell. This is a Catholic dogma that was entertained and promoted amongst a superstitious person.

There are four words used in the scriptures that is wrongly translated " hell". They are Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. Only Sheol and Hades are the same thing. Sheol is the Hebrew word for the "abode of the dead", and Hades is it's Greek equivalent. These words mean "the grave". Gehenna is from the burning pit outside of Jerusalem the Valley of Hinnom. This was used by Christ many times in the NT. This was a place of absolute abhorrence and destruction to the Jews. This "hell" represents the punishment at the end of time and not at death. The interpretation of the uses of Gehenna in the scripture are where the belief of eternal torment has come from. However, Hades is not the same as Gehenna. Many have taken Hades and Gehenna to be the same thing i.e. When you die you go to "hell" (Hades) and burn forever (Gehenna). Tatarus is used only once in the Bible to show the realm of the evil angels.

More later....

Eliot

03-24-2003, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by Rangerdave
I find it hard to believe that an all loving and forgiving God would condemn my soul simply because I didn't join the club and learn the secret handshake.

Well, God can't let sin into heaven. So, you have to become a Christian so God can clean you of your sin. It doen't matter what you do, but what God does when you ask him.

Beorn

03-24-2003, 04:15 AM

Does anyone else realize that every single religion that has ever existed teaches / believes / supports the idea that it is the "correct" religion? And most of those religions teach that people who don't practice that religion is somehow at a disadvantage.

Can you disprove the existance of Zeus, Aphrodite, Mars, et al? Can you disprove the existance of Benamuckee (from Friday's 'god' from Robinson Crusoe)? Can you disprove the existance of wind gods (from Native American equivalent of religion)? Can you disprove the existance of Anubis (from ancient Egypt)? Then can you prove the existance of "God?"

I can't disprove the existance of God, but as far as my mind will take the idea, there is no evidence for His existance, so I assume the opposite.

Mike

ms Greenleaf

03-24-2003, 04:30 AM

Well I beleive in hell
I do not beleive in annihilation because i beleive in forgivness... I also do not beleive you go to hel for just not beleiving that one human is god. (Jesus)

I do beleive that hell is just the sum of all ones doubts and greivances and guilts, that it is all pshycological, I can not beleive it is real torment because I beleive that once you die your spirit has been realeased from the "torment" of a mortal shell and its physical pains.

BTW, many "CHristians" sin. IS god so unforgiving that he feels that any sin should not be allowed?

Of course this is coming from someone woh thinks she will get bored in heaven... and B I thkn you are not an atheiist but one of those people who just does not know for sure.

Idril

03-24-2003, 11:46 AM

I don't believe in hell, basically as I don't believe in the existence of a god. I was brought up as a Roman Catholic and have been stabbed in the back (figuratively speaking) so many times by those who sit in church every Sunday morning. (Maybe that's why they are there - to ask forgiveness?).

Religons are set up and run by men - humans with all their failings - how do know they haven't go it wrong?

I like the Buddist idea though that hell is life on earth.

Thorin

03-24-2003, 02:58 PM

Sheol - All OT texts in the scriptures use the word Sheol where we see hell. Sheol is translated the 'pit' or grave. ALL people went to Sheol whether good or bad. In Sheol there is no consciousness (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6). When one dies, both body and soul (life; another mistranslated concept) dies and awaits resurrection (Job 14:12,14). There was no such thing as a 'hell' as is translated today.

Hades - The only Greek word that could convey the meaning of Sheol in the Greek was Hades. It is used in 11 places in the NT and conveys again the same meaning as Sheol - the grave. In only one place does it seem otherwise (in the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16, but that is another discussion). Many see the texts using Hades and interpret it as a fiery torment because there is only one word used to translate Hades: hell. Some texts that use Hades areMatthew 10:28, Luke 10:15, Acts 2:31.

Gehenna - The texts that use Gehenna are from where most people get the idea of fiery torment from. However, gehenna is NOT the same as Hades. You cannot take both words and amalgamate them into one meaning, which has been done with the English, hell. These texts are used to describe the punishment AT THE END OF TIME not at death. At death one receives Hades, at the end of time, one receives gehenna. (See Matthew 13:40-42, and Revelation 20:9,10 to see when one receives gehenna). As was mentioned , this word came from the Valley of Hinnom where bodies were burnt and where imagery such as "the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" came from. It was to show the horror and nastiness of it all and was a place of destruction, not eternal torment.

Tatarus - The only place in the scriptures where this word is used. 2 Peter 2:4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment

This was a pagan word to describe the realm where the demons reside. The demons and Satan are not in a fiery pit, nor are they torturing sinners. That is a total falsehood dreamed up by midieval priests to control a superstitious public. Tatarus is basically a 4th dimension of the spiritual world that we cannot always see. The Bible says that "Satan is a roaring lion roaming the earth, seeking whom he may devour". He is not underground in some fiery hell. His doom is met at the end of time as well. (See Revelation 20:9.10)

You see how todays concept of hell came about? The word 'hell' mushes them all together but they are not the same. Now we have this:

When a sinner dies, he goes to hell. In hell he is tormented forever by Satan and his demons who are in hell.

Now substitute it with the real words and see if it makes sense:

When a sinner dies, he goes to hades. In gehenna he is tormented forever by Satan and his demons who are in Tatarus.

It doesn't make sense because they are totally unrelated. Here is how it should read: When sinners die, they go to Hades or the grave where they are unconscious until the end where they will be resurrected and experience gehenna which will totally annihilate them. The demons who are residing in a nother dimension called Tatarus, will be cast into gehenna as well.

This is the truth folks. Any Christian who tries to hang on to the old belief of dying and experiencing burning fire at the hands of demons is fooling themselves and mocking the loving character of God.

More on the nature of gehenna later....

spirit

03-24-2003, 03:01 PM

i can imagine hell...but i not really sure it exists. neither does heaven

HW_rapace

03-24-2003, 03:22 PM

I'm not really the religiuos type :D , no hell for me, just worms eating my carcass .. I hope they will enjoy it!

Eliot

03-24-2003, 05:56 PM

Well, I'm done here. Nobody believes me, I don't believe them. I feel sorry for all of you.

Thorin

03-24-2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by Eliot
Well, I'm done here. Nobody believes me, I don't believe them. I feel sorry for all of you.

Well, Eliot. Maybe you should be giving some sort of proof or explanation to back up what you say. Do you honestly think that if you say, "All wicked people are going to burn and be tortured for ever.", and not give some sort of support, that people are just going to say, "Well, gee, that's swell!" and accept it?

Our moral conscience God gave us revolts at such a concept and it is extremely hard for people to accept. And rightly so. Though some language in the scripture seems to be leaning in that direction, it can be properly explained to the rest of scripture which overwhelmingly supports annihilation and not brutal torture for billions of years. Who would want to worship a God like that who would allow such a thing?

Back it up and explain it if you want people to take what you say seriously. As a matter of fact, 10 people have claimed to believe in eternal torture and have not even once tried to back that up. What a horrible concept to not even explain!

elf boy

03-24-2003, 06:34 PM

Yes, it's a literal eternal torment. Don't go there, no fun at all.

Bethelarien

03-24-2003, 07:03 PM

As a Latter-day Saint, I interpret our beliefs as saying that hell is a more figurative concept. My mom (very learned scriptorian/doctorine person) told me that hell is not an actual place. The "lake of fire and brimstone" mentioned in the scriptures symbolizes an inner, mental anguish for our sins, because when we die, we will remember everything we've done, and knowing that will be like a hell. *waits for the controversy to begin*

Thorin

03-24-2003, 09:04 PM

Many Christians believe that the wicked will burn in hell for all eternity. some even believe that God and the saved watch with delight at the suffering! What damage this false belief has caused in turning people into atheists!

The Bible preaches destruction for sinners. Why?
The wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23

God wants to make all things new. He can't when there is still sin. Those who hang on to sin will go down with the ship. God says:
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore, turn yourselves and live ye - Ezekiel 18:32

The Bible is full of references to the ultimate destruction of the enemies of God. For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall be stubble. And the day that cometh shall burn them up saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...and ye shall tread down the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts - Malachi 4:1,3
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. they shall consume into smoke shall they consume away. - Psalms 37:20
And death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:14,15
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers and idolators, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. - Revelation 21:8

Death is death. You cannot make it mean anything other than that.In flaming fire, taking vengeance of them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power - 2 Thessalonians 2:8,9

Destruction is eternal in its results, not its duration. It is hard to make destruction a process when destruction is a result. The words "eternal" and
"everlasting" most of the time means in its result, not its duration.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire - Jude 7

Notice that S&G are not burning now. The fire was eternal in its results, not in its duration.

More later.....

Eliot

03-24-2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Thorin
Well, Eliot. Maybe you should be giving some sort of proof or explanation to back up what you say. Do you honestly think that if you say, "All wicked people are going to burn and be tortured for ever.", and not give some sort of support, that people are just going to say, "Well, gee, that's swell!" and accept it?

I already explained my beliefs some posts earlier. Maybe you weren't paying enough attention. If you don't believe me, you DON'T have to.

How we live our lives is a choice God gives us as human beings. He tests us with temptation (temptation isn't sin, it's a test) to see if we really love God. We can live however we want, but there's always the punishment at the end. Since God can't let sin into Heaven, the unsaved will burn in the lake of fire.

I know it sounds mean for God to reject people, and toss them into Hell, but they rejected him first. As I said, your life is full of choices to follow or reject God and his word.

Thorin

03-24-2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Eliot
He tests us with temptation (temptation isn't sin, it's a test) to see if we really love God. We can live however we want, but there's always the punishment at the end. Since God can't let sin into Heaven, the unsaved will burn in the lake of fire.

First of all, God allows temptation, He does not do the tempting.

I am not denying that there will be a punishment. However, the nature of the punishment is what is the real issue here. Is justice served by torturing someone for trillions of years? Where's the reformative and redemptive purposes of that? If as I've said above, "The wages of sin is death." Why can't we take that at its word?

It has nothing to do whether I BELIEVE or not. If we both follow the Bible, that should be our source for truth. If you can properly explain from the Bible what you believe (instead of just saying it) you have more right to explain your views especially when they cast God in a negative light. Don't you think our Lord at least deserves some explanation to defend such a belief when we are talking to unbelievers?

Idril

03-24-2003, 09:27 PM

I have re-read your posts and I guess Eliot, you've stated what you believe, but not 'why'.

PS. I'm a lapsed Roman Catholic, I went to catholic primary school and then a convent school, so I can see where you're coming from
:)

elf boy

03-24-2003, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Rangerdave

I find it hard to believe that an all loving and forgiving God would condem my soul simply because I didn't join the club and learn the secret handshake. I am not an athiest, but I am fairly agnostic. I don't really think that any system of faith has it absolutely right. As such, I believe that one should live an honorable life not because of either the threat of eternal damnation or the promise of everlasting reward, but rather as its own reward.

Isaiah 64: 6,
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I copied that straight out of the king james version of the bible. You can't get to heaven by good works, but if you are truly saved you will want to do good works. That is very often confused. So yes Rangerdave, no matter what you believe, you will be condemned to hell if works is all you have going for ya. Sorry, but it's true.

elf boy

03-24-2003, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Beorn
Does anyone else realize that every single religion that has ever existed teaches / believes / supports the idea that it is the "correct" religion? And most of those religions teach that people who don't practice that religion is somehow at a disadvantage.

Can you disprove the existance of Zeus, Aphrodite, Mars, et al? Can you disprove the existance of Benamuckee (from Friday's 'god' from Robinson Crusoe)? Can you disprove the existance of wind gods (from Native American equivalent of religion)? Can you disprove the existance of Anubis (from ancient Egypt)? Then can you prove the existance of "God?"

I can't disprove the existance of God, but as far as my mind will take the idea, there is no evidence for His existance, so I assume the opposite.

Ok I get what yer saying, BUT just because ya can't prove it or disprove it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. To put this on a very basic level, I would much rather get saved here than take the chance if I were you (although being as Hell is real, there isn't a chance to get out of it if you are not saved). Believe it or not, Hell is real.

To get slightly off subject, Jesus is real too, it is undisputed that the romans killed him, and that his body disappeared from the grave. The only thing disputed is who he was and how he disappeared. The soldiers had no reason to move the body. And how would the disciples steal the body when it was guarded by members of the Roman army? That is enough proof for me right there.

e.Blackstar

03-24-2003, 11:06 PM

You are right, RD, we can't prove it or disprove it. Its a little thing called faith. Also, if you people don't believe in a God, where'd the universe come from. And DON'T tell me that a random particle went out walking one day, met another particle, thay fused and BOOM, a universe magically adapted for life, oxygen, atmosphere, etc.
I believe that I am a special person, created by a loving God for a special purpose, and when I die, I will go to heaven because my life has been bought by Jesus's blood.
How can some people think that they are nothing more than masses of random particles that came together by accident, and will one day disperse and become nothing again.

Eliot

03-24-2003, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by Thorin
First of all, God allows temptation, He does not do the tempting.

That didn't come out right. That's exactly what I meant.

gilgalad

03-24-2003, 11:30 PM

First of all, I do believe in Hell, as I believe in Heaven. Of all the views put forward, Eliot's is closest to my own, although it is a tad fundamentalist for me.

Idril, for me, the reason why I believe I suppose is that I was brought up that way. Being from England I'm sure you are aware of the very strong affiliation to the Catholic Church which has always existed in Ireland. Having been brought up in this enviroment, it would be hard for it not to rub off on me. That is the first and foremost reason for my belief.

The logic of holding this belief is where we hit the grey areas, i guess. The real reason is that I have always felt God inside me, comforting me, helping me through when things get tough. I know Beorn probably won't accept that as a valid reason but to me it is. It's when you open up to the possibility that god exists that you find you knew he did all along. That's what i think anyway.

Beorn, just because you can't disprove something doesn't mean it is a fact. It is equally true that just because a person can't prove something doesn't mean that it is untrue. For me, however, the evidence(if not proof) that the deities you mentioned don't exist is in the fact that they are not worshipped. Christianity has endured for 2000 years, the same with Judaism. (These two, I think are very similar, one group is wrong and the other is right, but hey differ by just one belief, even if it is a big one) There must be something to these religions to say that people still have faith in them after all this time.

EDIT:If God exists, then heaven and hell do too, to relate this post to the topic.

Waiting to be given out to,
gilgalad

Zale

03-24-2003, 11:38 PM

Thorin, where are you getting all this info from? Do you have an original version of the Bible in Hebrew?
They got Jesus' birth date wrong (by about 3 months); maybe they got other things wrong as well.
Maybe the Bible was just intended as a contemporary LotR, or just as a method of controlling the Medieval public & the Church invented the illustrious history of Christianity. As far as I am aware there is no proof that the Bible (NT, anyway) was originally written 2003 years ago; nor is there any proof that Jesus existed.

I'm one of those unlucky people with very literal minds, who question everything they know of until proven beyond doubt.
Unfortunately, the only way to ultimately prove the existence of God and the afterlife (whether Heaven or Hell/Hades, whichever) is to die and experience it. Then, it's extremely hard to let living people know...

(While we're talking about proof, there is no actual proof that the Universe exists either...)

Thorin

03-24-2003, 11:39 PM

Okay folks, let's keep this on topic please. I don't want it to turn into a debate on whether or not God exists. We could debate that for hours.

The issue is hell.

I am disappointed with the lack of evidence anyone has put forward, specifically from those who seem to be approaching it from a Christian perspective. To say, "Hell exists, deal with it. Sorry" Is not going to cut it. The character of God is on trial here. There are atheists on this forum who are earnestly seeking answers here. I think it is only fair to be detailed.
Please read what I've wrote before because each one is a part that fits together as a whole. I think all Christendom should be aware of the inconsistencies of this doctrine and what the Bible really has to say. If you don't know why you believe or test what you believe, then it is all "sounding brass" as the Bible puts it, to the ears of people who see God as some bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz.

gilgalad

03-24-2003, 11:46 PM

To demand evidence here is to ignore the nature of the debate, it being predominantly philosophical. You can't claim that the birthday of Jesus is wrong and then say that he might not have even existed!!! The reason the birthday of Jesus is "wrong" is because the calendar as we now know it was devised long after the life and times of Jesus had been and gone. This is not the fault of the Bible, rather it is that of much more contemporary timekeepers.

Also, don't you think it's a bit arrogant to put God on trial?:rolleyes:

ms Greenleaf

03-24-2003, 11:49 PM

okay here are my proofs for a matter which is completely nbon provivle.

1 the sensation of pain dies with the body. Therefore hell would not be a place of physical pain...it would not make sence

2 In most religions we have to repay for every wrong doing we have done...this cencus agreement implies that something like that must exist for are brains to register the idea

3 Christianity is not the only long-standing relegion, Pagan, Buddism, confusicion, the one the you know the arabic one,,, the list continues.

Thorin

03-24-2003, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by gilgalad
To demand evidence here is to ignore the nature of the debate, it being predominantly philosophical. You can't claim that the birthday of Jesus is wrong and then say that he might not have even existed!!! The reason the birthday of Jesus is "wrong" is because the calendar as we now know it was devised long after the life and times of Jesus had been and gone. This is not the fault of the Bible, rather it is that of much more contemporary timekeepers.

Also, don't you think it's a bit arrogant to put God on trial?:rolleyes:

1) I have yet to see any philosophical, never mind theological proof or argument here on this thread. As a matter of fact, the concept of an eternally tormenting fire definitely cannot stand up in a philosophical debate.

2) How did Jesus' birth come into play? :confused:

3) I am not the one putting God on trial, Satan is. He has confused man and potrayed God in a horrible light and yet Christiandom continues to propagate such a horrible picture of God. It is only right that His children show Him in the loving light that He is rather than as a cruel monster...And don't show any proof. Talk about giving God a raw deal! If anyone should know what their Master is like, it should be His followers.

Thorin

03-25-2003, 12:03 AM

Most people have based this theology on about 4 Bible texts while ignoring the whole of scripture and ignoring the figurative language of the Scriptures. Here are a few texts that the modern day theory of "hell" comes from.
Then shall He say unto them on the left hand; Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels - Matthew 25:41

As we saw with Jude 7, the words everlasting, eternal, and forever are interpreted mostly as the results, not the duration. The fires are everlasting in that they produce everlasting consequence. Nothing can be restored or rebuilt. Regardless, even if the fires were everlasting, it is illogical to say that what is thrown in is everlasting as well. Remember, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that shall not be quenched - Mark 9:43,44
"Unquenchable" when used in the Bible does not mean that it will never go out, but that it cannot be put out. It will do its work uninterrupted by human hands. however once it has burned up what it is supposed to, it will go out and create ashes. (see Malachi 4)
Look at this verse from the OT:
But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath Day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched - Jeremiah 17:27
This occured when Babylon sacked Jerusalem. Obviously, Jerusalem's gates still aren't burning, are they? No because unquenchable does not mean that the fires will not go out, but that they cannot be put out.

More on Revelation 20 and language like, "the worm dieth not" later.....

Beorn

03-25-2003, 01:01 AM

I have to say that Thorin has put forth some very interesting information, however I am not swayed from my stance because he has not addressed yet a very important point:
How do we know the Bible is correct, is indeed the Word of God, and that it was not written by some guy in a room, or by the Church?

Originally posted by elf boy
...if I were you (although being as Hell is real, there isn't a chance to get out of it if you are not saved). Believe it or not, Hell is real.

To get slightly off subject, Jesus is real too, it is undisputed that the romans killed him, and that his body disappeared from the grave. The only thing disputed is who he was and how he disappeared. The soldiers had no reason to move the body. And how would the disciples steal the body when it was guarded by members of the Roman army? That is enough proof for me right there.

I do not appreciate being told outright that something I believe (or rather do not believe) is ill-founded. Do not simply state things as fact. Most of this thread cannot be proved.

I do believe that Jesus existed, and was a good man. I do not believe that he was the son of God, or a messiah.

Originally posted by Treyar
You are right, RD, we can't prove it or disprove it. Its a little thing called faith. Also, if you people don't believe in a God, where'd the universe come from. And DON'T tell me that a random particle went out walking one day, met another particle, thay fused and BOOM, a universe magically adapted for life, oxygen, atmosphere, etc.
(The next paragraph is theory, I'm simply adding this note because I'm used to writing it as fact, and have done so. I don't feel like changing it) The entire universe was created from everything in it being compressed so small. It probably originated this way when it collapsed, as it will again eventually. Of the millions or billions of stars we have observed, as well as thousands of planets we've found (contrary to popular belief we have actually found other planets), only ours as far as we know supports life. It is only for a few billion (well, about 4.6 billion) years that it has supported life, and only for a few million supported intelligent life, out of the around 11.6 billion that it has been around. This one little planet in probably zillions may be the only one supporting life.

Originally posted by gilgalad
Beorn, just because you can't disprove something doesn't mean it is a fact. It is equally true that just because a person can't prove something doesn't mean that it is untrue. For me, however, the evidence(if not proof) that the deities you mentioned don't exist is in the fact that they are not worshipped. Christianity has endured for 2000 years, the same with Judaism. (These two, I think are very similar, one group is wrong and the other is right, but hey differ by just one belief, even if it is a big one) There must be something to these religions to say that people still have faith in them after all this time.

Really? The Egyptians were around for aroudn 5000 years, and their religious system was developed for around 3500 of that (I believe). Judiasm was around for a while before Christianity, as Christ was a Jew himself (a carpenter too...). I will venture as to say that very basic Christianity is like extended Judiasm, as most of Christianity is based on Judiasm.

Originally posted by Thorin
To say, "Hell exists, deal with it. Sorry" Is not going to cut it. The character of God is on trial here. There are atheists on this forum who are earnestly seeking answers here. I think it is only fair to be detailed.
Thank you Thorin.

Originally posted by gilgalad
The reason the birthday of Jesus is "wrong" is because the calendar as we now know it was devised long after the life and times of Jesus had been and gone. This is not the fault of the Bible, rather it is that of much more contemporary timekeepers.

You do have a point, but prior to the 1500s, about 30 days are known to have been 'lost.' That is, the time in which they passed was different from the time in which they were expected to have passed. I'm not sure how applicable this is...

Mike

Thorin

03-25-2003, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Beorn
I have to say that Thorin has put forth some very interesting information, however I am not swayed from my stance because he has not addressed yet a very important point:
How do we know the Bible is correct, is indeed the Word of God, and that it was not written by some guy in a room, or by the Church?

That is a question that I would rather not address here due to the fact that I want to stay on topic (hint, hint, people:) ). Lets just say that there are too many things that have occured in history and within the Bible's own compilation and history over the last 4000 years that would negate "some guy in a room."

Tomorrow....Revelation 20, the meaning of "tormented day and night for ever", the Greek word 'aionos', and the figurative parallels in the OT. Also, if time, the cosmological, judicial and moral reasons for denying an eternal tormenting fire as society wrongly interprets "hell"....

Rangerdave

03-25-2003, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by Treyar
You are right, RD, we can't prove it or disprove it. Its a little thing called faith. Also, if you people don't believe in a God, where'd the universe come from. And DON'T tell me that a random particle went out walking one day, met another particle, thay fused and BOOM, a universe magically adapted for life, oxygen, atmosphere, etc.
I believe that I am a special person, created by a loving God for a special purpose, and when I die, I will go to heaven because my life has been bought by Jesus's blood.
How can some people think that they are nothing more than masses of random particles that came together by accident, and will one day disperse and become nothing again.

If you would be so kind as to re-read my original post. Nowhere do espouse the theory that there is no God; nor do I lend any credence to the concept that the universe is simply the outcome of particle physics.

What I stated is that I am an agnostic. The Oxford English Dictionary defines an Agnostic as "One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God." My premise is that I do not believe that the God of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, the Hindu pantheon or even the Tao is the true nature of God.

My concept of God is metaphysically neutral. My concept of God is not concerned with devotion or tribute, only action and thought. In the final analysis, how one lives is more important that who one prays to. If this were not the case, then many souls were doomed to hell through no fault of there own. Is it reasonable to believe that a compassionate God would damn such cultures as the Olmecs, Incas or even the Inuit because they had the misfortune to live and die before the coming of missionaries?

I do believe that there is some form of reckoning to be found after death, but I believe that this reckoning will take into account all facets of ones life, not simply ones adherence to dogma.

And since many of the posters thus far have shown a decided fondness for quotes, here a few that I hold to be true.
The most preposterous motion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest and least productive industry in all history.

"God split himself into a myriad parts so that he might have friends". This may not be true, but it sounds good -- and is no sillier than any other theology.

"On two subjects the overwhelming majority of people regarded their own opinions as Absolute Truth, and sincerely believed that anyone who disagreed with them was immoral, outrageous, sinful, sacrilegious, offensive, intolerable, stupid, illogical, treasonable, against public interest, ridiculous, and obscene. The two subjects were (of course) sex and religion"

"If you pray hard enough, you can make water flow uphill. How hard? Why, hard enough to make water flow up hill, of course!"

Of all the strange "crimes" that human beings have legislated out of nothing, "blasphemy" is the most amazing -- with "obscenity" and "indecent exposure" fighting it out for
second and third place.

One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

There is no conclusive evidence of life after death. But there is no evidence of any sort against it. Soon enough you will know. So why fret about it?

Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. Hurting yourself is not sinful -- just stupid.

The truth of a proposition has nothing to do with its credibility. And vice versa.

All quotes by Robert A. Heinlein

There, now that I have climbed up on my high horse and lectured, let me climb back down and just say a few things.

First, I am not out to change anyone’s mind. That is neither my place nor desire. Trying to change people’s spiritual views is like trying to teach a Gorilla to fly. It only wastes your time and irritates the Gorilla.

To those who have faith, I applaud your devotion. To those who do not. I understand your reasons. And I refuse to judge either.

RD

Elbereth

03-25-2003, 07:43 AM

(Please bear in mind that I am writing this before my bedtime and I'm very tired)

Being raised a Roman Catholic, I do believe in heaven and hell....however my belief is that it takes alot to be sent to hell...If you are perfectly good and or you confess your sins and believe in God you will be accepted to heaven. However, if you are a good person but deny God and/or do not confess your sins to God...you are not necessarily doomed to hell...rather you go to Pergatory. I believe only the truly evil and ruthless people go to the torment of hell.

I may be right...I may be wrong...I don't know...but that is just my interpretation of what I read from my bible.

I also think that some souls in pergatory are given a second chance to redeem themselves and are reincarnated...but those are selectively chosen by the man upstairs.

(Ok...I realize I'm starting to sound all crunchy & new age now...I better stop before I go off on a tangent...before I know it I will start ranting about my Hobbit/Sick Monkey theory of evolution...and then all hell will break loose!) :rolleyes:

reem

03-25-2003, 02:13 PM

i didn't read everything but this is what i know(keep in mind that i'm just a regular person off the streets and can only give you the rudiments of my religion):
first of all, God is not 'human', never was 'human', and never will be. to be 'human' is to be 'lesser', which completely contradicts the concept of God. He was not born, nor has he any sons or mothers. He just is.
He made everything that there ever was, is and will be.
it doesn't take a genius to prove the existance of God. just look around you and you'll be overwhelmed with it. how can everything u see be there if there wasn't a creator?? nothing comes out of nothing. there is always a cause and effect. evern ancient philosophers (before any defined religiom) came to the conclusion of the existance of a greater power (that is, God), and they based their conclusions on pure common sence.
If you ask, "where did God come from then, if nothing comes from of nothing?"
then there's the philosophical question of "what came first, the chicken or the egg?". and also, since we are created beings in a created world, such a concept is too profound for us to completely comprehend. thta is why it is best not to dwell on it. but this can't be counted as blind faith.
How can tehre be more than one god? in the case of Zues and his extensinve family line, (and all the similar gods), then do they reproduce?? surely a god would not need such a degrading activity for surviaval? and for gods to be killed and overcome is another unthinkable idea.
anyway, God is also just, all knowing, most merciful, all powerful, wisest that there can be, creator of all (i.e the sky and earth and seas and all living things great and small).
He has sent messengers to human kind carrying his message, which clarifies manythings about him and the universe and how best to go about living. these messengers are his phrophets (like moses, adraham, mohamed, noah,...etc and jesus--whom in my faith we beleive is one of the greatest prophetsm but an ordianry man that eats, sleeps, and goes to the bathroom like everyone else.) to his prophets he gave special miracles to prove the truth of their message.
and God also created heaven and hell (the actual things) but they are not geographical landmarks that you can find on earth. like, for exapmle, if you dig long enough you will not eventually reach hell:p these are part of the after life, when we die and only our souls remain. on judgement day all of humanity will be gathered and all will be asked about all that they did during the time God has given us on earth. sins will be punished and those who were 'good' people and had followed their prophets will live in eternal bliss in heaven. there is such a thing as hell because God has given us all proof of his existance and sent many messengers and prophets to all the peoples of this earth. we don't know all of them, but we know the most prominent of them.
after God has given us all this undoubtable proof he gave us the choice of living as we choose...that's why you are answerable to your own actions. no one has the right to forcibly convert anyone to their religion or faith. all is free to choose. and THAT is where the problem lies. we have no excuse to give God in the end.
i'm tired of writting and my eyes hurt so i'll bugg off now, but this is pretty much what it says in my religion and i completely believe it because it make complete sense.
just one more thing; no one has the right to say who will go to hell and who will go to heaven. none of us is God to decide that. according to what is sent to us (through jewdism, christianity, and islam) we must live. and no one can say "yah i've been a good person so i'll defanitely go to heaven, and you've been a lousy dude so u'll be just have to burn in hell" because they don't have that knowledge. God decides. and for anyone to assume that they're going to heaven is very presumptious. and priests can not forgive your sins for you and that it. no man stands between you and God. if you want forgiveness you ask it directly from your creator and be penitent and abstain from what ever bad stuff you've been doing. god is most merciful...in the Qoran this is repeated over nad pver and over and over! i don't know about the other books though.
last but not least, if you don't believe in God, hell, angels, prophets and everything else, then it's ur life. do what ever you want with it. if you're right then you've got nothing to lose. if you're not then tough:) but following Gods word will make those who stick to it better people in every way...as long as they don't become psychologically disturbed extremists not interpret things the way they see fit and stray into wrong meanings.
alas, these days that's exactly what's happening.
o bye now. i'll shut up.:D
reem

Scatha

03-25-2003, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Beorn
I believe it doesn't exist. As an atheist, I don't believe in God or Hell.

The reason: There is no evidence that I find acceptable. Oh boy...I bet this'll stir up the conversation

I happen to agree with Beorn's statement, plus I share his view.

I also believe that there is not a single thing that killed more people then religion itself. (even outnumbering the medieval black plague) How many wars do we have to fight, just to convince (or coherse) another human being of another man's religion?

Idril

03-25-2003, 03:20 PM

I also believe that there is not a single thing that killed more people then religion itself.

Considering God is suppose to love us - he sure has a funny way of showing it - there is an awful lot of innocent people (incl kids)suffering a type of 'hell' on earth. I don't get it, I'm afraid:(

Thorin

03-25-2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Idril
Considering God is suppose to love us - he sure has a funny way of showing it - there is an awful lot of innocent people (incl kids)suffering a type of 'hell' on earth. I don't get it, I'm afraid:(

AAAAHH!! I don't want to go off topic!!!

But I do have to answer this one.

Idril, what many don't seem to realize is that in some ways, God's hands are tied. All throughout history (and even when time began) Satan has been accusing God that He is unfair, unjust, and controlling. Satan has claimed that God builds hedges around those He loves to protect them and stifles man's freedom of choice. God is technically on trial before the universe. Satan is His accuser.

To combat these accusations, God has allowed man the freedom of choice. Man chose to sin and because of that, the world is dying and decaying. Because God chooses not to force Himself on mankind, he allows man to make his own decisions and reap sometimes horrible results. To show the evil of sin, God allows bad things to happen. Man brings most of his suffering on himself. God respects that and allows it to show man that He cannot live without God. God is still in control and those who put their trust in him will experience life more abundantly even on a sinful earth.

He still cares for those who are suffering, more than we ever could. And there will come a time, and God has promised, when He will come back and make all things right. He will end the suffering and sin will be destroyed.

Sin is a horrible thing and we are seeing the results in our world and the degredation of mankind. If ever we needed the Lord before, we sure do need him now, as the spiritual goes.

OKAY, BACK ON TOPIC!!! IT DOES RELATE DIRECTLY TO WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE. HOW CAN A GOD OF LOVE ALLOW QUADRILLION YEARS OF FIERY TORMENT FOR THE CHILDREN HE CAME TO DIE FOR???

THE GOOD NEWS IS...HE DIDN'T! PRAISE GOD!!!!

More at a later time....

Idril

03-25-2003, 03:41 PM

Hmmm..(she says smiling ) still unconvinced - but you're not trying to convince me though (are you?):)
HOW CAN A GOD OF LOVE ALLOW QUADRILLION YEARS OF FIERY TORMENT FOR THE CHILDREN HE CAME TO DIE FOR???
Are you referring to Jesus?

Ol'gaffer

03-25-2003, 03:42 PM

Today in religion we discussed the matter of hell and of Gods grace.

Christianity (we discussed Roman Catholic mainly) has some flaws in the entire repenting and grace ideas. If a person, who has lived a good life and has followed the Bible and done everything for his fellow people, but being unhappy himself. Ends his own life, that is a mortal sin and he would go to hell. But if a person like for example Hitler (we used him as an example) would have repented truly in his bunker before his death and then died, according to the Bible, he would have made it into heaven! And if the Bible is gods word, then there are some flaws in it. In christianity, the only major sin that you cannot escape or repent from is blasphemy, but from a thing like murdering someone you can still repent and go to heaven.

I'm interested that why is this? Can anyone explain because to me it seems very incredible that this really is true.

Eriol

03-25-2003, 06:20 PM

Ol'gaffer said:

Christianity (we discussed Roman Catholic mainly) has some flaws in the entire repenting and grace ideas.

I will not talk about the ideas discussed in Ol'gaffer's post, I just want to say this: Many people criticize and sometimes even bash Christianity (among other religions, of course) without complete knowledge. When I read "Christianity has some flaws" I usually am interested, because I never met "Christianity" or discussed anything with it! The information we receive come from individual Christians, and of course they are fallible. But people seem to assume that if a Christian said it or did it somewhere, sometime, "Christianity" did it, and is to blame. So "Christianity" was responsible for the Crusades, Inquisition -- just to mention the main sources of attack. It is the same reasoning (?) that blames "Islam" for 9/11...

Chesterton (I believe) said that the only really crushing argument against Christianity is Christians.

The truth is that we have to investigate for ourselves what "Christianity" is. Read the Bible. Read books by people who really thought hard about it instead of just bashing it. Study the lives of the saints. And so on.

So go on Thorin! I commend your efforts, even though I don't have a clear opinion on the subject at hand.

(Note: It is funny to see Roman Catholicism being criticized for defending Justification by Faith! By the way, I believe what you were told is correct Ol'gaffer, and a testimony to God's inexhaustible mercy -- He can forgive even Hitler, if he (Hitler) just asks for it. And as for the suicide, we can't really know what were his last thoughts... he could have repented and asked for God's forgiving, so we can't really say he is damned, just as we can't say it in the case of Hitler! Only God knows that, and we must look after our own salvation... it is troublesome enough!)

elf boy

03-25-2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Zale
nor is there any proof that Jesus existed.

Actually that is not disputed, there was someone named Jesus and he was killed by the romans. People just argue over if he was the son of God or if he was just some guy that was lying.

Gothmog

03-25-2003, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by Scatha
I still am convinced that a topic on religion does not have a place on an RPG board. The topic gets out of hand too easily, plus could be insulting to those that follow a different belief. This is Not an RPG board. This forum was started and is maintained for the discussion of the works of JRR Tolkien. It has sections used for subjects different to this such as A Section for RPG's.

If a thread on religion is kept on topic and arguments stopped as they begin there is no problem with having such discussions. So far Thorin has done well on this thread to avoid and/or prevent any of the problems that could cause the closer/removal of the thread.

The topic is interesting and seems of interest to many on the boards. It is in a section set aside for subjects not concerned with Tolkien. Therefore, there is no reason that it should not be here. That being said I will leave those who wish to discuss this to their deliberations.

Thorin

03-25-2003, 08:44 PM

There's a lot to this post, but it is imperative that you read it and understand it and compare it to what I've said before....Get out your bibles and read it for yourself.

The biggest verse that many have derived the concept of eternal torment is from Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 14:10,11
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever (20:10)
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night (14:10.11)

Wow! Seems pretty obvious doesn't it? Not exactly. For a number of reasons:

1) The rest of the scripture supports death and annihilation as the ultimate punishment.
2) The use of the Greek words and the figurative language borrowed from the OT to show destruction.
3) The uses of the words "no rest day or night", "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever", and "tormented day and night forever and ever".

Read these verses from the OT and tell me if they don't sound familiar.
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; the smoke there shall go up forever from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever - Isaiah 34:9,10
This was describing the destruction of Edom that occured thousands of years ago. Its not burning today is it? Notice the language used is exactly like that in Revelation and other parts of the Bible to describe the finality of the wicked's punishment. The smoke ascending up is figurative of the totality of the destruction. It ascends up and is forever gone.

The expressions "day and night" show the continuity of the punishment, not the duration. Notice that in the Isaiah verse as well. For however long it lasts, there will be no interruption, nor any chance of quenching the fire. This does not mean that it will not go out, just that it will do its work uninterrupted as long as life lasts.

What about "forever and ever"? In these verses the Greek word used is "aionos" which is "as long as life lasts" or "age lasting" or an "unspecified length of time". Look at this verse from 1 Samuel:
I will not go up until the child be weaned and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord and there abide forever....Therefore I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord - 1 Samuel 1:22,28
This was when Samuel was given to the high priest, Eli, to serve God. Forever is a relative term. Here it means as long as life lasts. When 'forever' speaks about God or the saved, it means eternal because they have eternal life. However, when speaking about the wicked, the wicked are mortal because of sin. Therefore, when forever speaks about them, it is temporary because the wages of sin is death. They are not immortal, therefore cannot burn eternally.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16
Notice this verse in Matthew:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life - Matthew 25:46
Notice that there is a contrast. Eternal life vs. everlasting punishment. The more they are opposite the better. It does not say everlasting punishing but everlasting punishment. That punishment is death and it will last forever. There is no resurrection or redemption from it.
The wages of sin is death....BUT the gift of God is eternal life - Romans 6:23
Once again, total opposites. The opposite of life is death, not eternal suffering.
The uses of the terms 'forever', 'eternal', and 'everlasting' speak about results, not process. It also applies to whom it is speaking about. The wicked DO NOT have immortal souls. Therefore all that applies to them is temporary. The uses of 'day or night' and 'tormented day or night' and 'unquenchable' and'the worm dieth not', apply to continuity, not duration. It also is a use of figurative language to show the awfulness and degradation of the wicked's punishment. (See Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:46 for another direct link between the figurative use of these images in the OT and NT)

At a later date, I will discuss more philosophically about the concept of hell....Give you time to digest all this! :)

PS: KEEP ON TOPIC!!!!

Zale

03-25-2003, 11:27 PM

Putting God on trial: if He exists, then he is too powerful to care about my wonderings, and if He doesn't, well, no problem.
If He did, and gave me proof of that, then I would believe wholeheartedly.

Let me ask fundamentalists this:
1. God is omnipotent (all-powerful)
2. God is omniscient (all-knowing)
3. God is all-benevolent (don't know the posh word for that one)
In which case, why do the Devil and suffering exist? According to the above, He (God) knows about the Devil, has the power to destroy/disable the Devil, and will not let people suffer, being all-benevolent. Yet people do suffer.

I also find the concept that all you have to do to be saved (from Hell) is repent, no matter (more or less) what you have done a bit convenient.

Khamul

03-25-2003, 11:52 PM

God gave Adam and Eve the full freedom to do good. They were put into a place of happiness that was not interrupted by the petty problems that we constantly feel today. What happened? Satan tempted Adam and Eve, and they ate the fruit that God had directly told them not to eat. They disobeyed, showing that they had free will even in that paradise. We ourselves have the freedom to make our own choices, but our actions echo though eternity nonetheless. God gives us a choice to accept or reject him. We make the choice, not God. We just will be accountable for our choice.

RD: In the Old Testament, before Jesus had come, the Jews would sacrifice for their sins. It was obvious that even these tribes were influenced by religion. It may have been in the form of animism, which is more than just the worshiping of animals, but there was form of religion. God is capable of showing himself to them in the capacity that they would have a chance to make their choice.

It is debatable, but I have also heard that Jesus in his Return, depicted in the Book of Revelation, would come into Hades (a layer of hell) and give those who have not been able to have a chance to hear about him would be given a choice.

Thorin

03-26-2003, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by Khamul
It is debatable, but I have also heard that Jesus in his Return, depicted in the Book of Revelation, would come into Hades (a layer of hell) and give those who have not been able to have a chance to hear about him would be given a choice.

Oy! Has anyone even read any of my posts???

Hades is "the grave". There is no consciousness, and no second chance, no purgatory. "It is appointed man once to die, then the judgement." - Hebrews 9:27. We have this earth to make a choice. When we are dead, there is nothing left we can do. Makes sense doesn't it? Read Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 one among many of the verses that show that NO one is conscious after death and man does not have an immortal 'soul' (that is another WHOLE can of worms to discuss!)

In Revelation 20, the wicked dead are resurrected to face final judgement of fire out of heaven. This occurs after the 1000 years. Revelation speaks of two resurrections and the rest of scripture confirms it.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt - Daniel 12:2
Jesus says the same thing.
Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming when all that are in their graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth. They that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation - John 5:28,29
The resurrection of the just (called in Revelation, the 1st resurrection) occurs at the second coming of Jesus (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-55), the resurrection of the wicked (called the 2nd resurrection) occurs at the end of time (see Revelation 20:6-15)

This fire that comes down from heaven destroys, consumes and burns up the world, sin and all that is in it. This fire is called the second death and will be eternal and everlasting in its results: destruction and death!

Folks, read your bible! All this speculation and false belief is giving Christianity a bad name to those who don't believe. KNOW what you believe and KNOW the truth by studying the word! Its all plain and simple.

Oh, yes, I almost forgot.....KEEP ON TOPIC!!!!!!!!

Goldberry344

03-26-2003, 02:41 AM

I dont believe in god, and i certainly dont believe in the devil. however, if i did believe in god, i am pretty sure i would not believe in hell anyhow. how can the same god who created you to be one of his children condemn you to a after-life of suffering and pain? i refuse to believe that any diety would be so cruel.

Eliot

03-26-2003, 04:51 AM

Ok, think of this. You are God (I'm not saying we're more powerful then God, this is just an example), and you create laws for your people (that you created) to follow. They break your laws, and totally reject you. You eventually send your only son to live the horrible life as a human to free them from sin, and he's also rejected. If they don't want you (remember, you're god here), you punish them in Hell for eternity.

Well, that's my view. If you don't agree, that's fine.

ms Greenleaf

03-26-2003, 05:02 AM

It is interesting how similar your political veiw is to your Relegious---black and white--- not a grey speck.

Using your ex. Say you were a god who could give no real proof of your existence and people did not all believe in you. Then you give people faults...that is what differentiates us from gods right our MANY faults. Do you exspect them to be perfect when you GAVE thme their problems?

FoolOfATook

03-26-2003, 05:08 AM

The mind is its own place and in itself/ Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n
-Milton, Paradise Lost

Why this is hell, nor am I out of it./Think'st thou that I, who saw the face of God,/And tasted the eternal joys of heaven,/ Am not tormented by a thousand hells/ In being deprived of everlasting bliss?
-Marlowe, Doctor Faustus

Hell is other people
-Sartre, No Exit

Eliot

03-26-2003, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by ms Greenleaf
It is interesting how similar your political veiw is to your Relegious---black and white--- not a grey speck.

Using your ex. Say you were a god who could give no real proof of your existence and people did not all believe in you. Then you give people faults...that is what differentiates us from gods right our MANY faults. Do you exspect them to be perfect when you GAVE thme their problems?

For one, explain what you mean by that top paragraph.

Two, I don't understand the "faults" part of your second paragraph.

Rangerdave

03-26-2003, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by Khamul
RD: In the Old Testament, before Jesus had come, the Jews would sacrifice for their sins. It was obvious that even these tribes were influenced by religion. It may have been in the form of animism, which is more than just the worshiping of animals, but there was form of religion. God is capable of showing himself to them in the capacity that they would have a chance to make their choice.

Whether ancient civilizations practiced religious rites or not is completely irrelevant to my point. My point dealt with the Christian doctrine that those who have not accepted Christ as the Savior are doomed to torment in Hell. According to the intrinsic elitism introduced; not by Scripture but by ecclesiastic law, all those (with the exception of those Saints who ascended into Heaven bodily) who practiced any theological rites other than Christianity were doomed to spend at least some time in Hell. As I have tried to show, my major point of contention is not with God, but rather with the religion's manipulation of God to enforce a bizarre form of ecumenical jingoism. In my opinion, in the pursuit of moral superiority, religion has presented a false representation of God.

To give an example, we have all seen reflections on a pool of water. These reflections, while very close, are never perfect representations of the original. Some deviation will always occur. This is how I see religion. Christ, Allah, Brahma, Jehovah and even Tao are all human influenced reflections of God. Beautiful, divine, worthy of praise, but reflections nonetheless.

Originally posted by Khamul
It is debatable, but I have also heard that Jesus in his Return, depicted in the Book of Revelation, would come into Hades (a layer of hell) and give those who have not been able to have a chance to hear about him would be given a choice. [/B]

A better example of this is that Christ descended into Hell between the crucifixion and resurrection. Evidence of this can be found in Peter 3:18.
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit, by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
Or in the writings of St. Clement of Alexandria:
"The Lord preached the gospel to those in Hades, as well as to all in earth, In order that all might believe and be saved, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the gospel, as He did descend, it was either to preach the gospel to all, or to the Hebrews only. It accordingly to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there.”
And of course there is the apocryphal gospels teach the doctrine of Christ Jesus' descent into hell, the object of which was to preach to those in bondage there, and to liberate the Saints who had died before his advent on earth.

This is all well and good, but the fact remains that souls were doomed to hell through no fault of their own but having died before being introduced to the Gospels of Christ. So, it comes down to the duration of Hell for these unfortunate souls. Christ delivered those who died without knowing Christ but other wise just; a notion I find more desirable and in keeping with Scripture. This still means that those souls still spent time in damnation.
The oldest civilization mentioned in the bible is the Egyptians. Archaeological evidence has determined that the early dynasties of Egypt arose approximately three to three and a half thousand years before the birth of Christ. Am I to believe, as Christian (not biblical) dogma teaches that those born into this time were doomed to spend three millennia of untold suffering simply because the were born too early? This hardly seems like something an equitable God would do. But it does sound like something a religion seeking to prove its own ecumenical superiority would propose.

Originally posted by Eliot
Ok, think of this. You are God (I'm not saying we're more powerful then God, this is just an example), and you create laws for your people (that you created) to follow. They break your laws, and totally reject you. You eventually send your only son to live the horrible life as a human to free them from sin, and he's also rejected. If they don't want you (remember, you're god here), you punish them in Hell for eternity.

Imagine this. You are God.
Would you grace your creations with an unquenchable curiosity and thirst for knowledge, and then put what appears to be the sum of all knowledge within easy grasp in the center of the garden?

The whole story of Adam and Eve has always struck me more as a way for the early church to enforce the misogynistic practice of patriarchal dominance then a literal history of the fall of Man.

Of course these are only my views. I offer these here in encourage those with faith to examine their reasons for believing. To examine faith is the ultimate expression of theological revelation. Serious exploration of differing views can only bring about one of two results. It will strengthen your beliefs and bring you closer to true Grace
OR It will help you to accept that your faith was only a social constructEither way, you can at least be sure that you have come to your theological conclusions honestly. Even the most hardened believer will admit that there are those who profess to believe, not because it is true, but because they know no other way. Is it not better to know why you do or do not belive than simply just follow the herd.

Socrates once remarked that ”The unexamined life is not worth living.” I would say that the unexamined faith is not worth believing.

RD

reem

03-26-2003, 04:26 PM

just out of curiousity, has any one here tried reading any of the other two books? (i.e. the Torah and the Qoran)
personally i've just read the latter, and i find it have pretty much all the answer to these questions and lays aside all doubts...but the problem is that i don't have the english translation so i can't really efficinetly participate in this debate with the help of quotes and proofs. but still, if you really want illumination, i think you should atleast read it. and as far as i can see it doesn't contradict itself anywhere. but you should also (if you're going to read it) have an explantion book thingy because many of the verses reffer to particular incidents in history that aren't directly given, or might be understood the wrong way.
that's all i can say on this topic...even though i really want to contradict alot of your statements!! but i haven't got the immidiate resources to back up my opinions:) the only thing i can say is read the Quran. (as far as anyone who's read it and fully understands it is concerned, it hasn't been tampered with).
reem

Thorin

03-26-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Rangerdave
A better example of this is that Christ descended into Hell between the crucifixion and resurrection. Evidence of this can be found in Peter 3:18.
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit, by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
Or in the writings of St. Clement of Alexandria:
"The Lord preached the gospel to those in Hades, as well as to all in earth, In order that all might believe and be saved, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the gospel, as He did descend, it was either to preach the gospel to all, or to the Hebrews only. It accordingly to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there.”......And of course there is the apocryphal gospels teach the doctrine of Christ Jesus' descent into hell, the object of which was to preach to those in bondage there, and to liberate the Saints who had died before his advent on earth.

Here we go again! Number 1, the word for Hades is "grave". There is no consciousness there. Therefore, "spirits" (which in this case is just another word for the person, not some disembodied ghost), could not be ministered to because Christ was dead as well. Number 2, you must look at the verses surrounding it as well. It is not talking about the afterlife, but the power of the Spirit that Christ was given.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit - 1 Peter 3:18
The Holy Spirit raised Christ up from the dead. What else did this spirit allow Christ to do?
By which (the Spirit)also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison - vs 19
This verse does not tell us WHEN Christ preached to the spirits in prison, nor what nature this preaching occured, or what is meant by "in prison". To assume that it was when Christ died is a gratuitous assumption that you cannot find in the text. Read on for more explanation.
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffereing of God waited in the days of noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water - vs 20
There we go. The preaching to the lost "souls" or people, was Christ (who existed long before he was on this earth), pleading with the hearts of the people who were in their sins and who ignored Noah and God's pleading to be saved from the flood. It was by the Holy Spirit that raised Christ that this preaching occured for the anti-deluvians. There is no mention of Christ going to "hell" to preach to people. And Clement was obviously influenced by the Greek dualistic philosophy of man (which is also not a Biblical concept), that his predecessors were influenced by.

Scripture does not support the interpretation you've heard about of 1 Peter 3:19 anywhere else in scripture, Rangerdave. That right there tells you that there is a problem with the interpretation of man. We cannot take one or two texts and base our whole theology on it. That is where error occurs.
Originally posted by Rangerdave
This is all well and good, but the fact remains that souls were doomed to hell through no fault of their own but having died before being introduced to the Gospels of Christ. So, it comes down to the duration of Hell for these unfortunate souls. Christ delivered those who died without knowing Christ but other wise just; a notion I find more desirable and in keeping with Scripture. This still means that those souls still spent time in damnation....Am I to believe, as Christian (not biblical) dogma teaches that those born into this time were doomed to spend three millennia of untold suffering simply because the were born too early? This hardly seems like something an equitable God would do. But it does sound like something a religion seeking to prove its own ecumenical superiority would propose.RD

No, the fact is, Rangerdave, is that the OT Hebrews had NO concept of a conscious, tormenting afterlife. The Bible preaches the wholistic nature of man, not the Greek dualistic nature that came later. When man dies, his soul (translated as 'life') dies with his body. The hope is in resurrection at the end of time (see Job 14:12,14 in conjuction with 1 Corinthians 15:51-55) It would be extremely unfair of God to create a burning hell millenia before anyone ever heard of it, and condemned man to it (more on that later on my philosophical arguments against hell)...The fact is, is that WHOLE concept is alien to the Hebrew and Christian Bible. The fires that burn come AT THE END OF TIME, not at death.

BTW, the apocrypha was written between the Testaments (around 200-100 BC), so they could not have mentioned Jesus Christ.:)

PS: reem and others.....KEEP ON TOPIC!!!!! If you want to discuss other religions truths, or whether God exists, go to "God, religion and the burning question" thread and post to your heart's content!!!

Eliot

03-26-2003, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Rangerdave
Imagine this. You are God.
Would you grace your creations with an unquenchable curiosity and thirst for knowledge, and then put what appears to be the sum of all knowledge within easy grasp in the center of the garden?

The whole story of Adam and Eve has always struck me more as a way for the early church to enforce the misogynistic practice of patriarchal dominance then a literal history of the fall of Man.

OK, God did not put the temptation there. God let Satan into the Garden of Eden, to see if Adam and Eve would show there love to God, and resist the temptation. It's obvious that they took it, otherwise our world would be a wee bit different. What happened in Eden showed that A&E didn't love God all that much. I don't think they were tricked. I think they just disobeyed the rules, and thought they would get away with it.

Rangerdave

03-26-2003, 10:11 PM

Did I accidentally post in Esperanto again? I’m beginning to think that I did.

My point in quoting Peter and St Clement is to show that the Biblical Evidence for Hell is significantly less than the later Ecumenical Writings of Christian Philosophers. I chose Clement because he was one of the first of the so-called apologists that touched on the topic of hell. Born TITUS FLAVIUS CLEMENS, his writing began roughly 200 years after the death of Christ. Plenty enough time for the Church to complete muddle up things a bit.

Thorin rightly raises the point that The fact is, is that WHOLE concept is alien to the Hebrew and Christian Bible. The fires that burn come AT THE END OF TIME, not at death. This is absolutely correct, and makes my point more fluidly and succinctly.

My point is that the Bible, the document accepted by millions of Christians around the world as the undisputed Word of God, is remarkably silent on the concept of Everlasting Damnation. Much of what is commonly referred to as Hell is not Biblical, but Ecumenical. The Catholic dogma regarding Hell can be traced more to Dante than to Christ.

From this, Thorin and I come to the conclusion that there is no precise Biblical evidence for the damnation of the Lost Souls that died before the coming of Christ. But one cannot deny that the tradition and dogma is there.
So where did this theory come from? This tradition is not the Word of God, but rather the word of priests. The Christian God did not damn these souls, Christianity did.

This leads to the fallacy of secondary sources. Secondary sources can be a great source of comfort to those of faith, but should not be used as proofs. As Lazarus Long once commented What are the facts? Again and again and again -- what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what "the stars foretell," avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable "verdict of history" -- what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!

If I had a dime for every time a student of mine attributed a quote to the Bible that was in reality St Augustine’s City of God. I could retire comfortably. Even the famous line that “God helps those who help themselves” was first penned by Benjamin Franklin.

Have faith in God if that sustains you, but be weary of religion.

RD

Mrs. Maggott

03-26-2003, 11:00 PM

This is quite a topic! Many things have been written about "hades", "hell", "Sheol" etc., a great deal of it appears to be contradictory or at least possibly conflicting. However, there are a number of things to consider: first, is the reality - or unreality - of such a place, and second, how does one "get" there if in fact, it is "real". Frankly, the two are so interlaced, that one cannot ponder the first without also considering the second.

I haven't time to go into the subject in depth, but there are a few points I would like to make regarding things that have been said referable to hell by some great writers. C. S. Lewis in his "The Pilgrim's Regress" starts his protagonist's spiritual "journey" from a "puritan" home and so believes in a "dark hole full of snakes" (hell). During the course of his journey, Pilgrim is told that this "dark hole" is a blessing given by God since it is at least finite. In other words, left to their own devices, evil people could come up with even worse places!

Great Fathers of the Christian Church have said that heaven and hell are in fact the same; both would be an encounter with God face to face and a total immersion in His love. For the saint, this would be paradise; for the sinner - who has rejected God - this would be torment!

In Matthew, Christ speaks of the Last Judgment in which the "sheep" (the saved) would be on His right and the "goats" (the damned) would be on His left. Those on His right "would inherit the Kingdom that God had prepared for them before the Ages" while those on His left would be consigned to "outer darkness where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Interstingly enough, the criteria for either place has to do not with one's religious beliefs or how much theology one knows, with how well one has treated one's fellow man!

In C. S. Lewis' "Last Battle" (Chronicles of Narnia), as that world ends, all sentient creatures pass before the Lion and look Him in the face. He does nothing but stand there while some run to Him and others turn away. In other words, "banishment to the outer darkness" is the choice of the individual. Whatever one may believe about "hell", the simple fact is that it is not so much a "punishment" (although, of course, it is that as well) as a decision. Just as death was not a punishment for Man's fall, but a consequence of it, so too "hell" - the ultimate and eternal separation from God - is the choice of the individual rather than some external judgment pronounced upon an individual which is contrary to his deepest desires.

I believe there is a great deal of truth about the old saying that we create our own "hell" and choose to abide there in spite of every effort God makes to drag us kicking and screaming into His Kingdom.

Frodorocks

03-26-2003, 11:21 PM

Good question. I don't really believe in a solid form of hell. I don't think that anybody who loves, or is loved, can truly be evil and that only truly evil people go to hell, so therefore, there isn't one.;) Confused yet? I also think that God gives us more than one chance at heaven (and that you don't have to be a strict Christian to get into heaven, only a good person with mostly good motives, who didn't do much evil) by sending us back down here to try again. So I guess you could say that I think this world is hell.:)

Zale

03-26-2003, 11:58 PM

(Well impressed with Thorin, he writes proper posts.)

I'm willing to believe (if there is a God) in a fiery Hell/judgement at the end of Time. But by definition, nothing will happen after the end of Time. So what's the point?
(Unless you classify the spiritual dimension (including God & the Devil) as outside of time; in which case, do they have their own Time, and does that end as well?)

ms Greenleaf

03-27-2003, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by Eliot
For one, explain what you mean by that top paragraph.

Two, I don't understand the "faults" part of your second paragraph.

The first part I meen that.. you beleive thhat there is one god and if you do not worship him JUSt SO you will go to hell...is that it.

By the second I menna that if you were god and you made all these people and YOU gave them faults do YOU exspect them all to be perfect and worship you even though they have no evidence you exist. O ,eam what if we are all really worshipping god... in my opinion the only thing one could do to go to hell would be to hurt or kill someone perposly. Like in a certain war I know about.

Mrs. Maggott

03-27-2003, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by Zale
(Well impressed with Thorin, he writes proper posts.)

I'm willing to believe (if there is a God) in a fiery Hell/judgement at the end of Time. But by definition, nothing will happen after the end of Time. So what's the point?
(Unless you classify the spiritual dimension (including God & the Devil) as outside of time; in which case, do they have their own Time, and does that end as well?)
Time is not fixed but relative. However, it will end for this creation at some point. For those who do not believe that creation was anything other than a random set of events, then it is to be assumed that barring "the big crunch" with a resulting new "big bang", nothing will happen. Of course, that does not address the origins of the original "big bang" in the first place, but we will leave that aside for now.

If one does believe in "God", then He is omnipotent, omniscent, omnipresent (all powerful, all knowing and everywhere), all good (very important) and eternal. He exists external to time just as we will exist when the Day of Judgment comes. Of course, "eternal" really means very little to us since, as Tolkien's mortals, all that we know comes into being and passes away, sometimes quickly (the may fly), sometimes very slowly (mountains), but nothing in the material universe is "eternal" in the way that God is eternal.

I for one am inclined to believe as do many Fathers of the Church that hell and heaven may simply have to do with our interaction with God. After all, in this life we can "separate ourselves" from Him (although not really), but in the hereafter, even that mirage of "freedom" will not be possible. So the person who continues to reject God will simply not be able to accomplish even the illustion of that separation. It would seem to me that such an eternal relationship which is hated and despised - but that cannot be terminated - would probably constitute the "hottest" of hells for that individual.

Talierin

03-27-2003, 12:58 AM

This is what I believe, but CS Lewis says it so much better than I could, so here's two quotes:

'Hell is a state of mind - ye never said a truer word. And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind - is, in the end, Hell. But Heaven is not a state of mind. Heaven is reality itself. All that is fully real is Heavenly.' - CSL, The Great Divorce, ch 9

To enter heaven is to become more human than you ever succeeded in being in earth; to enter hell, is to be banished from humanity. What is cast (or casts itself) into hell is not a man: it is 'remains'. To be a complete man means to have the passions obedient to the will and the will offered to God....
We know much more about heaven than hell, for heaven is the home of humanity and therefore contains all that is implied in a glorified human life: but hell was not made for men, It is in no sense parallel to heaven: it is 'the darkness outside', the outer rim where being fades away into nonentity....
I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside....
In the long run the answer to all those who object to the doctrine of hell, is itself a question: 'What are you asking God to do?' To wipe out their past sins and, at all costs, to give them a fresh start, smoothing every difficulty and offering every miraculous help? But He has done so, on Calvary. To forgive them? They will not be forgiven. To leave them alone? Alas, I am afraid that is what He does. - CSL, The Problem of Pain, ch 8

Mrs. Maggott

03-27-2003, 01:11 AM

Oh dear, as I read back over Thorin's posts, there are so many things to consider. Now I will preface my remarks by saying that I am an Orthodox Christian - that is the Church in the East which is different from the Church in the West (the two have been in schism since 1054 A.D.). Orthodoxy does not contain many of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church (purgatory, the Immaculate Conception etc.) and never had a "Reformation" which encompass such Protestant beliefs as the doctrine of "sola Scriptura", the Rapture etc. So I will argue from a point of view that many with a Western Christian background will find difficult to understand.

To begin with, St. Paul makes quite clear that upon His death, Christ descended into hell and loosed all those who had been there since the beginning. As all men had died until that time (with the exception of Elijah and Enoch and possibly Moses because he appears with Elijah on Mt. Tabor during Christ's Transfiguration) and because redemption had not yet taken place, even the blessed were not able to enter the Kingdom. So Christ went and freed all those who had died before Him (whomever they were) from the bondage of hell. Remember, in the Gospel it is said that many of the Saints rose from their tombs and appared in Jerusalem after Christ's resurrection.

St. Paul also states that there is only one life, death and after that the Judgment to which all men are consigned - like the sheep and the goats in Matthew.

As for God "punishing" us because of our misdeeds when He "made us like this", well that's not only ludicrous but simply untrue. God gave to all men free will because without free will there is no real love but rather, nothing more than a "programmed response". God created us and all sentient beings - including the angels - because although He was perfect in Himself and needed no one else, His love was so great that He wanted to "share" it. Furthermore, He knew even as He considered creation, that it would lead to the Cross - but He did it anyway. We have free will and that means that unless our wickedness is unintentional or not understood as wicked - in which case we are not held accountable for it - most of the evil things we do are done with the knowledge that we should not do them! As that is the case, it is more than a little disingenuous to "blame" God for our failings. That's rather like the fellow who killed his mother and father and then threw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan!

Thorin

03-27-2003, 02:48 AM

:)

FINALLY! Some decent discussion and support!!! Thanks the last few people who've replied...Eliot, stay on topic! :D I want your opinion, but keep it on task!!!

Here are some reasons other then biblical (which I feel I've explained sufficiently) for negating the concept of an eternally burning, torturing fire at death and at the end of the world.

Moral Implications
God is turned into a cruel, sadistic torturer, whether He does the torture or just allows it. This is unreconciable with a God Who loves the world so much that He sent His son to die for sinners. God cannot be praised for His goodness when He torments sinners throughout the ages of eternity. Our conscience that God has placed within us revolts at such a concept of eternal torture. John Hick says
“The idea of bodies burning for ever and continuously suffering the intense pain of third-degree burns without either being consumed or losing consciousness is as scientifically fantastic as it is morally revolting...The thought of such a torment being deliberately inflicted by divine decree is totally incompatible with the idea of God as infinite love.”

God says, “My ways are above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:9,10). If our conscience revolts at the idea of torturing a human alive for any prolonged period of time, how can we attribute an even worse thing to the God who created us and put that conscience in us? Especially when He is far superior in that area than we are? And yet we make Him out to be ten times worse then the worst sinner on this earth.

Judicial Implications
God deals in the realm of retributive justice. The punishment fits the crime. God implented this system for his people on this earth, why would he operate His own system with a far inferior one? It is difficult to imagine what rebellious lifestyle warrants ultimate punishment of everlasting, conscious torment in hell.
It is hard to believe that divine justice can be satisfied by inflicting a punishment of eternal torment. There is no positive, reformative or redemptive purpose in this punishment. The Bible says that ultimately, the wages of sin is death. If one sins, one dies. That is the punishment for the rebellion of sin. Some people say, “God is an infinite being, therefore a sin committed against him deserves an infinite punishment.” Yes, punishment: death. Punishing? Forever? That is not fair in the least. God’s justice and mercy are not evident and God is the embodiment of all those things...including love.

Cosmological Implications
In an eternally burning hell, we have a cosmic dualism. Happiness and pain, goodness and evil would continue to exist forever alongside each other. This is impossible to reconcile with Revelation 21:4 which states that “there will be no more sorrow, or crying for the former things have passed away”.

The fact and knowledge of loved ones suffering in hell, and the presence of millions suffering excruciating pain would only serve to destroy the peace and happiness of the new world. The new creation would be flawed from day one. Regardless of their state, sin and sinners still would exist in a “perfect” world.
Sin cannot exist in the presence of God, yet in Revelation 14:10 says that "and he(wicked man) shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb". Obviously then, they would have to cease to exist at some point by this fire.

The purpose of the plan of salvation is ultimately to eradicate the presence of sin and sinners from the world. Christ’s victory of his redemptive mission can only be fulfilled in this task. The pain and "torment" is a natural effect of the fire that is supposed to destroy sin and a sinful world. This is called God's "strange act" because it goes against all He is...However, for a new heaven and a new "start" and to put sinners out of their misery, it is a necessary one.

Mrs. Maggott

03-27-2003, 12:15 PM

In Lewis' "The Last Battle" from Chronicles of Narnia, there is a stable in which the animals of Narnia are told Aslan is waiting when actually, the Enemy Tash is there to destroy all who are thrown therein. However, when Jill and Eustace are thrown into this stable, they find that they are in a great world with the sun shining in the sky above, with mountains and valleys spreading all around them. The door is still standing there and when they look through the cracks in its wood, they can still see the clearing at night with the fire in the world they had come from. They of course then realize that they are in The Kingdom.

Several dwarves are thrown through the door and the children greet them. But the dwarves (who refuse to be "taken in" by talk of Aslan and His Kingdom) crawl about on the beautiful grass and act as if they are in fact, in a dark stable. Every attempt to "make" them see reality, fails because they refuse to do so. Jill picks one up and swings him around so that he can "see" that he is not confined, but he cries out that she bumped his head on a stall and he takes a swing at her and crawls off to his fellows huddling on the "floor". Suddenly, the Lion Aslan appears and Jill begs Him to help. Sadly, the Lion tells her that He can do nothing as long as the dwarves refuse to believe what is real and cling stubbornly to their delusion! To show her the problem, He miraculously produces a glorious meal. The dwarves eat the food, but to them it is nothing but the noxious remains that one would find in a stable. He breaths his breath of life upon them, but they smell only the fetid air of the stable.

In the end, the children and Aslan have no choice but to abandon them to their own "world" where, as the old Narnia ends and this, the new one begins, one gets the feeling that they will stay forever in a land of sunlight and glory - and see none of it because in their "wisdom" it does not and cannot exist. This is what Lewis means when he says that for some people, God simply is not able to rescue them from "hell" without destroying their minds and rebuilding them and that is something which He will not do because of His respect for our individuality.

Thorin

03-27-2003, 05:00 PM

Thanks for the CS Lewis info, Maggot. I always thought Lewis was a fire and brimstone type promoter. I guess, though, coming from an atheist background, he probably had a serious problem with the way it was all presented by Christians.

However, believing that the wicked will be in their own imaginary world, oblivious to the reality of what's around them simply allows for another type of eternal punishing. Instead of destruction, they are subjected to a psychological torture for eternity. Somehow, I don't think this presents God in any better light then if they were burning.

It is hard to believe in Lewis' theory (Though I do give him credit for trying to sanitize 'hell'. I would hope that most Christians should find some serious moral flaws in the traditional view as well. What does that say for the Christian to the rest of the world?), for three reasons:
1) The lack of biblical evidence to support such a notion
2) It ignores the obvious references in both Old and New Testaments to the ultimate destruction of sin and sinners.
3) It undermines the ultimate result of the plan of salvation - To rid the world of the stain of sin and sinners that caused the world's misery to begin with (see my cosmological argument again).

Thanks alot for your thought provoking responses!

Mrs. Maggott

03-27-2003, 05:49 PM

You are confusing "cause" and "effect". It is not God who is to "blame" in this matter. We all know people who delight in suffering (in fact, we all enjoy a good depression from time to time; that's what all those four handkerchief "chick flicks" are about!). Because we have free will, we are "allowed", "permitted", "not prevented" from exercising it, even if we do so to our detriment. That was the danger God encountered from the beginning in Creation. In order to be sure that His creatures were happy and living always in His paradise, God had merely to make us without free will. Unfortunately, had He done that, the love that He wished to share with us would have been a fraud. In order to truly love and be loved, God had to create beings who were capable of refusing to love Him; creatures who could chose disobedience and rejection. He did - and we do!

Eventually, those who continue to reject Him will find themselves in "hell" whether that hell is a place in the void of nothingness (the opposite of the totality of our being when we are with Him) or whether it is to be in the fullness of His love which for such people would indeed be "hell". This is not a matter of punishment, but of consequence. Our free will enables us to say "no" to Him and continue to say "no" even to the point of eternal damnation. And, by the way, this has nothing whatsoever to do with external religious trappings. St. John Chrysostom, a Fourth Century Patriarch of the Church, said that "...the walls of hell are lined with priests and the bishops are the candlestands..." so there is no "externals" by which these things can be measured. Christ said that many of the damned would cry out to Him that "I cast out demons in Your name...", but His reply would be, "I never knew you!". In fact, there are many Saints of the Church who believe that those who dismiss God or think that they "don't believe" in Him will be astonished at the time of judgment to find that their love for Him is greater than that of many who openly profess Him!

Thorin

03-27-2003, 06:21 PM

As much fun as it is to hash things out with Mrs. Maggot, I would like to know where the 22 people who voted for an eternal, fiery burning torture for the wicked are to defend this view? I would like comments on my presentation and whether that actually makes sense.

I feel the lack of response or defense on this thread for such a view shows that this concept seems really foreign to our God-given consciences. How many sermons do you actually hear on Sunday or Saturday about the reality of eternal torment? Not many because deep down inside, we feel that such a view is morally wrong. We are afraid to go to the Bible, REALLY study it and find out the truth.

If more people did, the love and mercy of God would fill their hearts and ease their consciences in trying to reconcile preaching about a God of infinite love with a God who decrees that His children, whom He loves, should burn for all eternity.

Mrs. Maggott

03-27-2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by Thorin
As much fun as it is to hash things out with Mrs. Maggot, I would like to know where the 22 people who voted for an eternal, fiery burning torture for the wicked are to defend this view? I would like comments on my presentation and whether that actually makes sense.

I feel the lack of response or defense on this thread for such a view shows that this concept seems really foreign to our God-given consciences. How many sermons do you actually hear on Sunday or Saturday about the reality of eternal torment? Not many because deep down inside, we feel that such a view is morally wrong. We are afraid to go to the Bible, REALLY study it and find out the truth.

If more people did, the love and mercy of God would fill their hearts and ease their consciences in trying to reconcile preaching about a God of infinite love with a God who decrees that His children, whom He loves, should burn for all eternity.
I think that the presentation of a fiery pit (which in fact is used in Scripture but I believe allegorically since Sheol - hell - was in fact a large pit in which garbage was incinerated outside of Jerusalem) was a means of catching people's attention. After all, a dark, empty nothingness - although to me that would be a real "hell" - is hardly the stuff of revivalists! Firey brimstone eternally immolating the shrieking damned "gets one's attention" in a way that more considered, profound intellectual explanations fail to do! Again, we are limited by our natures and our level of understanding. We are no more able to conceptualize "hell" than we are "heaven" and are therefore doomed to experience both through concepts we are able to understand.

However, there is just one more story about hell that I would like to relate. It is in the Jewish tradition: a very holy Rabbi met God one day and the Lord asked him if he would like to see "hell". The Rabbi admitted that he would and so God led him to a door which He opened. Inside, the air was filled with the shrieks and moans of millions of suffering souls. The Rabbi looked about and saw that all of these people were sitting at long banquet tables filled with food and drink and that each one had in his or her hand, a spoon with a four foot long handle. Of course, the handle of the spoon was so long, that try as each person might, although he could acquire the food or drink, he could not bring it to his mouth. And so all of these souls suffered the torture of hunger and thirst while surrounded by the finest of food and drink.

God then shut the door and the screams subsided. The Rabbi was very shaken. Never had he seen such suffering and he was very depressed. Then God asked him kindly if he would like to see heaven. Cheering instantly, the Rabbi eagerly answered that he would very much like to see heaven. God then went to another door and opened it. Inside there was beautiful music and the sound of laughter and people taking to one another happily - but to the Rabbi's shock, the scene was the same: laden banquet tables filled with the finest of food and drink and each person sitting thereat had in his or her hand a spoon with a four foot handle. For a moment, the Rabbi could not understand why these souls were not in the same torment as those in hell since they were apparently in the same situation. And then he noticed something: the people at the heavenly banquet were feeding each other!

I have always thought that this particular story had much to tell about the difference between heaven and hell and the people who find their way into those two places. ;)

Thorin

03-27-2003, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
I think that the presentation of a fiery pit (which in fact is used in Scripture but I believe allegorically since Sheol - hell - was in fact a large pit in which garbage was incinerated outside of Jerusalem) was a means of catching people's attention. After all, a dark, empty nothingness - although to me that would be a real "hell" - is hardly the stuff of revivalists! Firey brimstone eternally immolating the shrieking damned "gets one's attention" in a way that more considered, profound intellectual explanations fail to do! Again, we are limited by our natures and our level of understanding. We are no more able to conceptualize "hell" than we are "heaven" and are therefore doomed to experience both through concepts we are able to understand.

Actually, Maggot, "Sheol" was meant to be translated as "the grave" and sometimes "the pit". It was basically where all went when they died where there was no consciousness. Gehenna is the place where you are talking about from the Valley of Hinnom (didn't you read my earlier posts?). This was a place of abhorrence and destruction. And yes, the vocabulary used seems to have been pumped up to further the image. However, the way the English translations have come out, it sometimes seems like the punishment is eternal in its durationl. Understanding the figurative and literal uses of these words, however, will clear up any misunderstandings we may have.

Unfortunately, many have not done this, but taken misintepretations that have been handed down for generations and accepted as fact.

Anyway, the challenge goes again to the "tormentor" side. Please defend this belief in some way to show some of our atheist friends where you are coming from and what support you have for your beliefs.

Mrs. Maggott

03-27-2003, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Thorin
Actually, Maggot, "Sheol" was meant to be translated as "the grave" and sometimes "the pit". It was basically where all went when they died where there was no consciousness. Gehenna is the place where you are talking about from the Valley of Hinnom (didn't you read my earlier posts?). This was a place of abhorrence and destruction. And yes, the vocabulary used seems to have been pumped up to further the image. However, the way the English translations have come out, it sometimes seems like the punishment is eternal in its durationl. Understanding the figurative and literal uses of these words, however, will clear up any misunderstandings we may have.

Unfortunately, many have not done this, but taken misintepretations that have been handed down for generations and accepted as fact.

Anyway, the challenge goes again to the "tormentor" side. Please defend this belief in some way to show some of our atheist friends where you are coming from and what support you have for your beliefs.

Absolutely right about Sheol; that's what I get for posting in between Workers Comp cases. It is Gehenna - but it did mean a place of abomination in accordance with Hebrew purity regulations. Sheol, however, was no picnic either, albeit sans flammables. It, too, was a place of "torment", but perhaps more so in the nature that hell is understood - a separation from God.

Anyway, as I think I have pointed out, the "torment" of hell is not of God's doing. If He could, He would permit none to "perish", but He abides by the rules He Himself made and therefore He cannot prevent those who choose to reject Him from doing so. The only "blame" that can be laid upon God in this matter is that He chose to create the universe - and in so doing, "created" the possibility of hell. Had He remained in His original Perfection, there would, of course, have been no hell. But somehow, I don't know of anyone who would prefer that He had not engaged in creation simply because the concept of hell is unpleasant. However, it is only in this one instance that any blame can be laid upon God for hell and those who sentence themselves therein.

Thorin

03-27-2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
Sheol, however, was no picnic either, albeit sans flammables. It, too, was a place of "torment", but perhaps more so in the nature that hell is understood - a separation from God.

Hmm. I would like to know where you got that from, Maggot. The OT which uses only Sheol for our translation "hell" shows that there is no consciousness in Sheol.Whatsoever they hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might; for there is not work, nor device, nor knowledge, nore wisdom in Sheol wither thou goest - Ecclesiastes 9:10 For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not any thing. Neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither hav ethey any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun. - Ecclesiastes 9:5.6 So man lieth down and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep....Oh that thou would hide me in Sheol (the grave)...If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait till my change come - Job 14:12, 13a, 14 (see also 1 Coirinthians 15:51-56)The dead praise not the Lord, nor any that go down into silence - Psalms 115:17