Judging - King Elessar's choice

[Ithrynluin]

The debate between the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil and the Guild of Periaur can be found here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9986).

The 4 official judges are Nóm, Inderjit S, Eledhwen, and Lantarion.

The fifth vote will come from the poll, which will be opened for 10 days.

I ask each of the judges to read the debate thouroughly and carefully.
And please... I beg of all the voters to not just vote for the team they prefer because the poll will be meaningless then - just some friendly advice.:)

I congratulate both teams for a fascinating and thought-provoking debate.

Let's hear it from the judges.:)

[Nóm]

First I'll just say that judging this debate has been the biggest judging challenge I have encountered.

While the teams didn't touch on everything that I had hoped, they did bring up points that I had not considered, such as Galdalf's way with hobbits, or that the Battle of By Water was the last in the Shire. This last point is one that wasn't put to enough use, though it came in at the end of the debate and I think that is unfortunate.

Legolam brought up the fact that hobbits have decreased and that they fear men, and live hiding from them, and Turgon did well to point out that for all we know this could have been the result of a removal of the Edict. All the same I am not inclined to believe that the Edict did not help isolate hobbits and increase the estrangement of the races that eventually lead to the hiding of the hobbits. Turgon also made the point that the Edict could be a lasting thing, a protection of the Shire when Elessar had gone and men started to became bored with good, with Kings less good than Elessar in place, the edict could be just the thing to keep men from entering the Shire to do evil. In my opinion the point could have been easily argued against, but it was not. I think legolam brought up one of most crucial quotes, and I had expected that the quote would have been at the heart of the debate from the beginning, but even thought it was not, her point remains one of the best in the debate.

This is the closest debate that I have judged. I have read it many times in hope that I might be able to vote for one team over the other rather than a draw. Before the debate started I was of the thought that the Edict was unwise. Ost-in-Edhil did cause me to question my belief, but it was not changed. I think all members of the debate did a good job of presenting their arguements and avioding contradicting themselves or having crucial points disproven by the other team.

TheFool put forth an excellent closing arguement, and I especialy like this:

* The Hobbits are in need of protection from outside threats from the evil still in the world. We believe the best means of protection for the Shire is to allow decent Men to gradually integrate into the edges of the Shire, thus increasing the strength and self-sufficiency of the community, the level of understanding and trust between the two races, and a long-term healthy relationship.
Unfortunately, self sufficiency of the Shire was not made a big enough issue in the debate.

Pippin_Took and Arvedui argued back and forth a little about Gandalf's motives in playing a role in protecting the Shire, in dealing with hobbit iteractions with other races, and in the role played by the rangers in the protection of the Shire and Bree. Even though Arvedui points out that the Rangers were also protecting Bree to counter Pippin's claim that the men of Bree helped the hobbits by throwing out evil men, I come out agreeing with Pippin_Took - why change a system that works? Why add an Edict when the lands where all around more safe than they had been before.

Pippin_Took makes an excellent point when he claims that it would have been better had good men been living in the Shire during the War of the Ring. Ost-in-Edhil did nothing that was able to hurt this claim.

The points made by Gothmog and later backed by Arvedui for Ost-in-Edhil that having the Edict in place is wise since it avoids forcing the hobbits into a situation which could cause friction that would have been easier prevented than to be undone later, by having to remove men from the Shire by force, are good points seen throughout. They weren't disproven, but opposing views were stronger for me.

This is without a doubt the cloest debate that I have been able to judge, but I find the overall arguement of Periaur to be more convincing, my vote goes to them.

I hope this wont be the last we see of the Periaur debating.

[Wonko The Sane]

The debate started out rocky, and I think I posted that I was more than a little disappointed with our team's half-hearted attitude, but Legolam came in and, it seems, almost single-handedly saved our side. I've read the debate and in light of all that I've seen and read, and though it was a tough decision for the O-i-E proved formidable opponents, my vote has to go to the Periaur.
Your performance in this debate was shining, spectacular. :) And I am thoroughly impressed.

[Aulë]

Wonks, considering that TheFool and I worked our butts off in this debate whilst you did nothing, I find that post of yours rather insulting.
And Legolam only posted once....(although it was a good'un)

[Ancalagon]

Just wanted to congratulate all involved on an excellent debate, moreover I would like to acknowledge the even more excellent question!

[Aulë]

I would like to take the time to thank Ost-in-Edhil for such a wonderful debate.
Arvedui, Turgon, Gothmog and Rangerdave (who I'm sure did some 'behind-the-scenes' researching) debated extremely well, and I know that I found this debate, my first on this forum, to be a most enjoyable and enlightening experiance.
I would also like to thank Nóm and ithrynluin for doing a brilliant job at co-ordinating it.
Finally, I'd like to give my biggest thanks to TheFool and Legolam for their contribution to the debate.

[Lantarion]

Indeed the question was marvelously found; I was only vaguely aware of such an Edict, and had never considered the philosophical aspects of it (i.e. being right or wrong). Well done.
Both sides argued incredibly well, and took examples and quotes that usually backed their point very well. For the Ost-in-Edhil, I found one of Arvedui's posts most convincing:
Originally posted by Arvedui
Some of the worst possible ruffians have already tried to settle in the Shire, and rule it by their will. That ended when the hobbits threw them out, by their own force.
This shows that the Shire-folk, although built in their ways and perhaaps a bit ignorant, are very sutbborn and hardy and are able to protect themselves; especially with the renewed morale that Meriadoc and Peregrin brought with them from their heroic journeys.

For the Periaur, Legolam's post brought up an excellent speculation (though only based on hints and vague quotes, being the only available info about the Fourth Age) concerning the affect of the Edict being linked to the 'dissappearance' of the Hobbits over time. The argument is very good, and I basically agree: that by separating Men and Hobbits, the Halflings (already rather simple and secretive folk) would only increase their ignorance of worldly happenings. basically, this is a good thoery; but rather simplistic. Just because Men are not allowed inside the Shire it does not automatically mean that all knowledge of them and their deeds would be forgotten. Merry and Pippin at latest sparked a new interest among Hobbitfolk to explore and live openly again, writing many books and traveling to and from Gondor. A great theory, but with little evidence IMO; and as Turgon points out, it is all still speculation. (He continues to speculate that the separation of Hobbits and Men might have been due to the cancelling of the Edict; but this, too, is mere speculation.)
But Legolam makes it seem plausible that this sundering was due to lack of contact with the outside world.

Now undoubtedly King Elessar issued the Edict with good will: he purposed to let the Hobbits do as they themselves find suitable, and he wanted to give them a wholly private place to dwell in. But I think that perhaps he did not weigh out all of the possibilities that this 'gift' might bring with it in the long run. There must have been Hobbits in the Shire who did not agree with the Edict, and might have thought it mroe of a restriction. If the Hobbits did not want Men in their country at all, they would have their own rules and laws to control in the inflow of foreign persons. Therefore I give my vote to the Guild of Periaur.

Congratulations and well done to all debaters!!! :)

[EDIT: I'm afraid I accidentally picked the "Guild of Ost-in-Edhil" choice in the Poll, and will now proceed to rectify it. The numbers of the Poll were originally (i.e. before my accidental vote): GoOiE = 1; GoP = 2. One vote will be taken from the GoOiE and one added to the GoP. The Poll should now read: GoOiE = 1; GoP = 3. I apologize deeply for the inconvenience.]

[Ancalagon]

Hmmm, I wonder Lant...I voted over 2 hours ago and already there was a vote of OiE (who I voted for), so should it not read 3-2?

[TheFool]

(P vote added)

This has been my first on-line debate also, it has proved much less painful than I first imagined :D - mostly I have asked my n00b questions to Pippin_Took, so my thanks to him for his patient answers! And a thank-you to the Periaur team(s) as a whole, I think we have put together some solid stuff.

Thanks to the Ost-in-Edhil team as well, I have enjoyed the debate, often needing to rack my brains!

By no means least, thanks to Nóm and ithrynluin. The other day I was thinking, "so how does one come up with a good question for debate like this?" - I tried to, but I couldn't do it... :)

[Legolam]

I don't think it would be too ethical for me to vote on this poll, since I sort of took part in the debate. I'd just like to say that I enjoyed the small contribution I made to the debate, and the question was certainly thought-provoking! Also, sorry that I made such a small contribution, stuff got very busy after I was brought in to the team! Thanks to Pip who was very supportive :D

[Nóm]

Originally posted by TheFool
By no means least, thanks to Nóm and ithrynluin. The other day I was thinking, "so how does one come up with a good question for debate like this?" - I tried to, but I couldn't do it... :)
You're welcomed.

I think the best way to find a topic is to use a question you have wrestled with yourself, but have not asked at the forum, rather than trying to think up a new one.

In this case I just picked one that didn't require you guys to have read The Silmarillion.

[TheFool]

I've read the Sil a few times, but I can never remember much about it afterwards... so, lucky question for me! :D

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Hmmm, I wonder Lant...I voted over 2 hours ago and already there was a vote of OiE (who I voted for), so should it not read 3-2?

Indeed, OiE should have 2 votes- Anc and Celebthol

[Celebthôl]

yes i did vote for Ost-in-Edhil, it was really close though, and i was tempted to go for a draw, but they clintched (sp) it.

[Eledhwen]

Thanks to both teams for an excellent debate - a most enjoyable read!

The Periaur strung together some good arguments against the edict: The coexistence of races in Bree; bad men don't obey rules; edict is a barrier to goodwill; separation breeds ignorance, jealousy and distrust (why not protect all races?); and no One-Ring, so the major force of evil had gone.

Ost in Edhil argued that men would force change against the will of the Hobbits; that Gandalf, the Dunedain and Galadriel all showed an interest in the Shire; and that the edict is Law - enforcement needed to be worked out. The point about later kings was also a good one.

It became clear that the debate could go either way, with strong arguments for both points of view, and it would be the better debaters who would win. The Periaur had the disadvantage that half their team did not contribute, and although Legolam's contribution was good, I could not give it full weight as she was not on the Periaur debating team. Ost in Edhil had a strong debater in Gothmog and much enthusiasm from Arvedui, who brought 'real' history into the argument. Turgon came in late with heavy artillery.

Overall, I felt that the Periaur ran out of fresh arguments towards the end, apparently to the frustration of Legolam who came up with some new ones. Ost in Edhil started well and finished well, with perhaps some weaker throws in the middle. On balance, I give the debate to Ost-in-Edhil by a nose.

[Aulë]

Err, Legolam (female) WAS on our team....
She was substituted for Wonks.

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by Pippin_Took
Err, Legolam (female) WAS on our team....
She was substituted for Wonks. Sorry P_T, I did not know that a substitution had been made (and I've edited my post to add an 's' to he). I looked back over the debate and my opinion still stands. Though I thought Legolam's argument was imaginative, catching on to Tolkien's words about Hobbits today and bringing them into the debate, overall it was still Ost-in-Edhil who reasoned their case most strongly.

[Bethelarien]

I'm not an official judge.

However, I thought I'd leave my thoughts here. I voted for OiE rather than the Periaur, and here is my reasoning:

I found the OiE's posts more convincing. The Periaur's were also convincing and very well written, but the OiE were more so. (Okay, so very basic reasons, but hey, it works, right?)

Although I didn't participate in the debate, I'd like to thank those who did. The posts were all very well-written and very convincing, as well as well-researched. Very excellent job all around.

I look forward to the next debate eagerly.

Maybe I'll even be asked to debate! ;)

[Inderjit S]

Id just like to start off with saying what a great debate! Both Periaur and O-I-E debate very, very well and it was difficult to decided a winner, hence the lateness of my post.

O-I-E made some great points, esp. his on the interfering attitude of men and on the guarding of the shir by the Rangers long before Gandalf had any suspicions about it being important to the fate of the ring or of it being important in any other fashion.

But for me, Peiiaaur's arguments were 'better' in the sense that they made more sense then O-I-E's arguments, though I feel Ostin had the better constructed posts. The example of Bree was a great plus point, the lack of Evil in the F.A (Supernatural evil, that is) plus the favouritism that seemed to benfit the Hobbits. Anbd of course the argument over the 'extinction' of Hobbits by Legolam. Also, this poignant Gildor to Frodo:

FoTR; Three is company

But it is not your Shire....The wide world is all about you, you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot forever fence yourselves out...

[Gothmog]

I would like to Thank all of the judges for the time and effort they have put in. And my congratulations to the Guild of the Periaur.

I do have to ask Inderjit S, What is the reason for the quote you used in your judgement? As this was not brought up in the debate I do not understand why you are quoting it here.

[Arvedui]

Let me join the Lord og Balrogs in a big thanks! to all of the judges, even though i deem that the majority of you are wrong.:D :D ;) :D :(

Also, I wish to thank the Periaur for their splendid performance. this was great fun.

Thank you also to Nóm and ithrynluin for giving us this opportunity to twist our minds on this fun topic.

Finally, thanks to Gothmog and Turgon. Your insight still makes me filled with awe.

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Let me join the Lord og Balrogs in a big thanks! to all of the judges, even though i deem that the majority of you are wrong.:D :D ;) :D :( Do you mean the official judges or everyone? If the latter, I'd save the above statement until all the votes are in!

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
Do you mean the official judges or everyone? If the latter, I'd save the above statement until all the votes are in!

All the votes are in!
Periaur have won 3 votes to 2 (unless the Poll changes over the next few days)

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Pippin Took
All the votes are in!
Periaur have won 3 votes to 2 (unless the Poll changes over the next few days)

Actually, Pip, the current "score" is:

Periaur - 4 (Inderjit S, Lantarion, Nóm, and the poll)

O-i-E - 1 (Eledhwen)

We must wait for the poll to close (in a few days) and then the winner will be announced officially. But even if the poll shifts in favour of O-i-E, that won't change much.:)

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
Do you mean the official judges or everyone? If the latter, I'd save the above statement until all the votes are in!

Since three of the four official judges have given their vote to the Periaur, the votes won't matter. But you are right, I should be more precise. It was aimed at the official judges.

And it was a joke...

[Wonko The Sane]

Originally posted by Pippin Took
Wonks, considering that TheFool and I worked our butts off in this debate whilst you did nothing, I find that post of yours rather insulting.
And Legolam only posted once....(although it was a good'un)

Pip, I TOLD you I couldn't do anything cos I was in England.
And at the beginning of the debate we nearly defaulted by not posting in time.

And Legolam's post, was, in my opinion, the most persuasive of the debate.
I vote for the Periaur mainly because of that brain Legolam's got on her, and her shining performance in this debate. I found her fresh perspective on the issue to be quite compelling..

But I do acknowledge that O-i-E drove a hard bargain. They are quite a formidable opponent and I applaud my guildmates Pippin_Took and TheFool for their strong contributions as well.
I am really sorry that I couldn't post...
I was never able to get to a computer...and I DID explain that before I left. :-/

[Legolam]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
I vote for the Periaur mainly because of that brain Legolam's got on her, and her shining performance in this debate. I found her fresh perspective on the issue to be quite compelling..
Flattery will get you everywhere, Wonks! :D

[Wonko The Sane]

*Grins brightly* Especially if it's the truth! :D

But I meant every word of it Legolam. And not just because I want you to invite me to come visit you in Scotland. ;)

[Legolam]

*Official Invite to Wonks*

I hereby invite Wonko the Sane to Scotland to visit me, with or without Snaga, any time.

~Legolam

[Ithrynluin]

The judging of this debate has come to an end.

The Periaur - 4 votes (Nóm, Inderjit S, Lantarion, the poll - having in mind that Lantarion accidentally voted for OiE)

The OiE - 1 vote (Eledhwen)

Congratulations half-olds, and well done both teams.:)

[Ancalagon]

That's all very interesting, when is the return match? I trust Turgon will have this arranged in a matter of days?!?!!?!?!

I for one would be first in line to debate on behalf of OiE.



bitter much Anc?

:D

[Aulë]

I believe that the record is now 2-0 in our favour.... :D
Anyway, I'm sure you'll have your chance at revenge in the Debating Tournament.

[Ancalagon]

Well, if you feel you need to wait another month m'Aulë then I guess that will suffice. I suspect you would need a month to get your team together and try arrange a suitable start day...like last time;)

[Wonko The Sane]

We are kicking so much O-i-E butt!!

:) We one in almost a landslide!!! :)

GO US!