Glorfindel - arrival to and departure from ME

[Ithrynluin]

From HoME XII; Last Writings; Glorfindel:

An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party, more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf - Olorin about Third Age 1000.

The second essay, Glorfindel II, is a text of five manuscript pages which undoubtedly followed the first at no long interval; but a slip of paper on which my father hastily set down some thoughts on the matter presumably came between them, since he said here that while Glorfindel might have come with Gandalf, 'it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and that though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the war.' At the end of this note he wrote the words 'Numenorean ship', presumably indicating how Glorfindel might have crossed the Great Sea.

1. Why would Glorfindel need a Numenorean ship to take him to Middle Earth? One would suppose that the Elves (of Alqualonde) were more than capable in the craft of ship building.

2. Which do you think is more likely? His arrival in the Second Age or the Third?

It says that "it is far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age" but then again it does say that Glorfinedl was a follower and friend of Olórin and, in a way, acted as Gandalf's protector and "bodyguard". It would therefore maybe make more sense that he came to ME with Gandalf?

It is indeed probable that he had in Valinor already
become a friend and follower of Olorin. Even in the brief glimpses of him given in The Lord of the Rings he appears as specially concerned for Gandalf, and was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandalf had never reappeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer.

3. Why didn't Glorfindel leave Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age with the Ring-bearers? He was sent to aid Elrond and Gandalf and to help the inhabitants of ME in their struggles with Sauron. His mission was over - Sauron was vanquished and Elrond and Gandalf were leaving. It would only make sense that he leave as well.
We could allow for the possibility that Glorfindel was aboard that ship but that he just wasn't mentioned, but I find that highly unlikely.

[Lhunithiliel]

If I may....

1/ "Why would Glorfindel need a Numenorean ship to take him to Middle Earth? One would suppose that the Elves (of Alqualonde) were more than capable in the craft of ship building."

I tend to think that an elvish ship would have arisen quite a strong interest and disquiet by the shores of ME.... which, in its turn, would have easily warned THE Enemy of the presence of one of his most dangerous and valiant opponents! The mission then would've been endagered and might've failed.

Besides, Mr.Gl. (;) ) was not some "ordinary" elf! A high elf to be reincarnated and sent back to the darkness and turmoil of ME - THIS must have been for a very important reason, having also in mind that Mandos was not "easy" at letting an elvish soul to be re-incarnated in the same body and let it dwell in the same place as before the destruction of the bodily form. Which leads again to the assumption (that could have been easily guessed by Sauron) that sth. was going on, sth. against his power over ME, sth. that would soon cause great changes. THAT could've also endangered the mission.

[Ithrynluin]

But how could Sauron possibly perceive that a reincarnated Elf has landed in the Havens, a highly guarded and safe Elven realm?

Why should we assume that Elven ships had different properties than Numenorean ships? Both the Elves and the Men of Numenor were taught how to build ships by Ulmo/Ossë and I daresay the Numenoreans' ships were equally well built (especially during the reign of Tar-Aldarion who was taught by Cirdan himself).

I see Elven ships as quiet and graceful and therefore not arousing much interest elsewhere, other than the port they landed in, but this is of course only my opinion.

[Inderjit S]

Lhun, Tolkiens view on reincarnation were changed, and he dropped the fact that they were being a lot were being reprimanded by NAMO ;) never to be relased. To my recollection, only Finwe and Feanor would be kept forever, therefore most Elves, even Saeros would be released.

Read the essay on Glorfindel in HoME 12 for more possible reason as to why he was re-incarnated and sent to M-E.

[Lhunithiliel]

1/ the ships
I can swear I have read somewhere that the Elvish ships were different from those of the Numenoreans ... but I spent an hour searching for that extract and I could not find it!:o (shame on me!) I DO remember when reading that information I was impressed, and I thought " Well, the good old elves after all did not pass all their skills to Men!"
Therefore, I think that an Elvish ship by the shores of ME could not have stayed unnoticed.

2/ re-incarnation of Glorfindel
I did follow your advice, Inder (;) :) ) and I read that essay.
But what it says is not too far from my first posted opinion.
Let's see:
The Elves were destined to be by nature 'immortal', within the unknown limits of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm, and their disembodiment was a grievous thing.
It was the duty, therefore, of the Valar to restore them, if they were slain, to incarnate life, if they desired it - unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great
evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentant. When they were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there.
Two points here concerning the re-incarnation of the Elves, Gl. respectively:
1) "...unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentan..."
With Gl. - a Noldo of the rebelious exiles that could have seem to be the case.
...Glorfindel of Gondolin was one of the exiled Noldor, rebels against the authority of Manwe, and they were all under a ban imposed by him: they could not return in bodily form to the Blessed Realm.
But later we read:
......he was an Elda of high and noble spirit: and it can
be assumed that, though he left Valinor in the host of Turgon,
and so incurred the ban, he did so reluctantly because of kinship with Turgon and allegiance to him, and had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualonde.
and
.....Glorfindel had sacrificed his life...

After his purging of any guilt that he had incurred in the rebellion, he was released from Mandos, and Manwe restored him....

...for he had regained the primitive innocence and
grace of the Eldar....

...his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice....
This story demonstrates a case of a very strong exception, which makes this case exceptional which means that sending this "angelic figure" OPENLY to ME could have not be concealed by no means!

2/ secondly:
/out from the above quote/:
"When they were re-embodied they could remain in
Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there...."

IF their home had been there.... Gondolin however had vanished long before that :
...for Gondolin was destroyed and all or most of his kin had perished.
Another exception!
Again: IF Mr.Gl. had openly entered ME shining with all the glory of his past deeds and his present uplifted fea, had his presence not been noticed by Sauron?!
I strongly dout it!

There is also an interesting line, which IMO explains the purpose of Gl.- the I-st returning to ME :
...his long sojourn during the last years of the
First Age, and at least far into the Second Age, no doubt was
also in accord with the wishes and designs of Manwe. .
There it becomes clear (at least to me) that it was Manwe who directed the whole "show" (pls. forgive me those humorous notes within this wonderful serious discussion!) .
Had it not been up to Manwe's plans and designs, I doubt he would have ever given such grace to Glorfindel as he in fact did.
Which, may very well lead to a conclusion that - yes!, Gl. - a valiant warrior, a spirit that had already proven to be able to sacrifice, would have been the very right choice for a "bodyguard" of Olorin = Gandalf.


I wonder.... Did the other wizards have such "luck"? ;)

[Ithrynluin]

This story demonstrates a case of a very strong exception, which makes this case exceptional which means that sending this "angelic figure" OPENLY to ME could have not be concealed by no means!

Again: IF Mr.Gl. had openly entered ME shining with all the glory of his past deeds and his present uplifted fea, had his presence not been noticed by Sauron?!

But we can't just assume that Sauron saw anything and everything that was going on in Middle Earth. All the plotting against Sauron (in which Glorfindel had a part) would have been in vain then. Glorfindel and the Istari arrived to Middle Earth at the Grey Havens, not just on any random coast. Their landing was intended to be as secret as possible (to the Enemy), and no one could hear about it outside of Lindon IMHO.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I know what you mean about the ships Lhun . . . they have to be different . . . except I picture them glowing and silent. :p

I was under the impression that all elves (and that would include Glorfindel) were forgiven after the War of Wrath. Therefore I cannot see the Valar holding any of the elves who were involved in the Rebellion in the Halls of Mandos as long as they showed true repentance.

[BlackCaptain]

I agree with Ithrynluin. Sauron would not have noticed the elven ship coming in from a hidden harbor.

1) I think, that perhaps Glorfindell made a pit stop at Numenor, and just decided to use one of the Numenorean ships. Perhaps he wanted to encourage some friendship between elves and men by using one of thier ships. Just a thought, although I don't have anything to back that up. I still have to get to the Alkalabeth. I happen to be stuck on Tolkiens letters right now.They're so intruiging.... (If thats the word)

2) I think his arrival in the Second Age is far more likely. I don't think that 5 powerful Maia would need an elf body-gaurd, no matter how great. Glorfindell, IMO, probly landed in the second age coming to the aid of Hollin.

3) Glorfindell may not have left with the Ringbearers, simply because Tolkien forgot him. He is only a small character in the Lord of the Rings. It isnt until the Silmarillioin, and HOME that he has a bigger role. And he was neither a ring-bearer, nor a great elven king or queen. Sure, he would be a great elf to have with you, but he wasnt the best of the best. And even if he was, he wasnt the best of the best of the best. haha... I dont know, I may be totaly off, but those are just my 2 cents

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by BlackCaptain

1) I think, that perhaps Glorfindell made a pit stop at Numenor, and just decided to use one of the Numenorean ships. Perhaps he wanted to encourage some friendship between elves and men by using one of thier ships. Just a thought, although I don't have anything to back that up. I still have to get to the Alkalabeth. I happen to be stuck on Tolkiens letters right now.They're so intruiging.... (If thats the word)



A similar thought has crossed my mind. Numenor and Tol Eressea were not estranged then and there was still some traffic between the two. Glorfindel could have landed in Numenor to enlist some aid from the King, or to let him know the plans of the Valar concerning ME and himself.

[BlackCaptain]

But still, that doesnt explain why Glorfindell would just abandon elvish ships, or an elvish ship I mean. I think Tolkein just said he came in a Numenorean ship to show that the Numenoreans were great Mariners, and had great enough skill to bear a great Elven prince on a journey of great haste.

[Inderjit S]

I think, that perhaps Glorfindell made a pit stop at Numenor, and just decided to use one of the Numenorean ships. Perhaps he wanted to encourage some friendship between elves and men by using one of thier ships

How would the transport of a Elven lord improve the already amiable relationship between the Numenroreans/Elves? I think it was more of the case of a 'ban' being put on Erresian/ Telerin Calaquendi on sailing towards M-E.

I don't think that 5 powerful Maia would need an elf body-gaurd

Who says that all the Istari arrived at the same time? HoME 12, varies on the arrival of the Blue Wizards from the Third to Second Age, whereas U.T mentions how Radagast and Saruman may have arrived at the same time, though Saruman clearly wasn't happy with this, and Gandalf is said in LoTR;Appendix to have arrived last of all.

Tolkien mentions in 'Last Writings' (HoME 12) That he arrived with Gandalf, though this idea was seemingly rejected.


Glorfindell may not have left with the Ringbearers, simply because Tolkien forgot him. He is only a small character in the Lord of the Rings.

He is one of the main Elven characters in loTR. How/why would Tolkien 'forget' about him?

It isnt until the Silmarillioin, and HOME that he has a bigger role

His role in LoTR is as big as any role, in terms of being in the book, not deeds he has in HoME/Silmarillion. BoLT 2 goes into some detail, in the Fall of Gondolin.

And he was neither a ring-bearer, nor a great elven king or queen.

Name one Elven king/queen who plays a predominant role in LoTR?

but he wasnt the best of the best

Glorfindel tells of his ancestory in Gondolin HoME 6


Hmm....It is plain the Glorfindel of LoTR is the same as the one mentioned in BoLT and the Quenta's of HoME 4 and 5 in the time that Tolkien wrote LoTR. He was therefore at the time a Elf of enormous power.


Also:

one of the mightiest of the firstborn He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.

Gandalf to Frodo, when talking about Glorfindel in 'Many Meetings'

Also:

From what is said of Glorfindel in LoTR and the Silmarillion it is evident he is a Elda of high and noble spirit HoME 12; Last Writings

For long years he remained in Valinor...in compansionship with the Maia.To these he had become almost an equal

Comparison to the Maia is definite sign of supreme might.

[BlackCaptain]

Well if I remember correctly, Glorfindell is only mentioned in about 2 chapters in LOTR. But it seems you know what your talking about, and I dont. ya got me!

[Inderjit S]

He still plays a predominant role in the chapters he is in, more so then HoME, and even in BoLT.

[Arvedui]

This thread has been moved out of the Guild of Scholar's Hall, and will hopefully be filled with the thoughts of more members.

[Garwen]

I had no idea that Glorfindel was mentioned so much in the HoME series.
I only have 4 or 5 of them and there not in order. And in the few that I have, he is not mentioned all that much. I had no idea that tolkien had mentioned that Glorfindel arrived in a ship from Numenor, or that he may have been Gandalf's body guard. How interesting.
What is BoLT?

[Greenwood]

What is BoLT?The Book of Lost Tales, Part One and The Book of Lost Tales, Part Two are volumes one and two of the HoME series.

[Bucky]

Quote:
I think, that perhaps Glorfindell made a pit stop at Numenor, and just decided to use one of the Numenorean ships. Perhaps he wanted to encourage some friendship between elves and men by using one of thier ships

How would the transport of a Elven lord improve the already amiable relationship between the Numenroreans/Elves? I think it was more of the case of a 'ban' being put on Erresian/ Telerin Calaquendi on sailing towards M-E.



As I was reading this entire thread, I was wondering when someone would touch on the fact that the ships of The Teleri did not come to Middle Earth.....

Ban or no ban, which is not mentioned, they simply came to Numenor & NO FURTHER.
The Numenoreans then took Glorfindel the rest of the way to Middle Earth because it was they who sailed to Middle Earth....

There is NO evidence and indeed proof to the opposite that Elves from the Blessed Realm returned to Middle Earth with the blessing or permission of The Valar - look what happened when The Noldor wanted to.
Yet, The Teleri regularly visited Numenor. Tolkien is PLAINLY inplying that The Telerri 'dropped off' Glorfindel in Numenor' & the Numenoreans took him to ME.

As far as these wild theories that Sauron could've 'sniffed out' or perceived the appearance on Middle Earth's shores by a High Elf of such noble origin, that's absurd. He didn't know the Elves had The Three Rings until they put them on did he?
If Sauron was that 'tuned in', he would've known the minute Celebrimbor was forging them, especially as he was in on the making & secrets of the other Rings of Power, now wouldn't he?

Let's face it, Sauron, while having great power, was just a servant & emissary himself, and even Morgoth himself couldn't see all his enemies.......

I mean, The Silmarillion plainly states even HE didn't know The Host of The West was coming at him in The War of Wrath.......