Question Authority: Some issues with the rules of HI

[Wonko The Sane]

Alright, at the behest of our leader Galdor I have created a thread for the discussion of questions for the HI leadership.

Issues I have, feel free to post your own:

It has been discussed in the past that one must have their RPG profile approved by the leaders and keep it in complete compliance, accordance, and aggrement with the forum timeline. However, for those of us that aren't going to fight in the war, and are merely going to participate in other RPGs with these characters and just want help developing our skills at RPing this isn't necesary. Why must we then try to adhere by the forum timeline. The whole point of an RPG is to create a character you can use, with the help of your imagination and a BASE in Tolkien, to RP for fun or profit. However you see fit.
Since I won't fight in the war there's no reason for me to do this.

And another, recent issue: magic. In some guilds (such as The Dark Legion) there are areas where we DO use magic. I am an apprentice Electromancer to Tar-Ancalime, for example. And to say that no magic is allowed in TTF RPGs is wrong.

You people at Heren Istarion are NOT the final word on RPGs and the OFFICIAL rules of the forum say nothing near as strict as this.
I think we should trust THOSE rules first and foremost.

[Anamatar IV]

Wonko, I have started a thread about magic which explains the deal with magic. It also explains the rules with heren Istarion.

So far, Wonko, you are the only one who has told us they don't plan on being in the war. The goal for Heren Istarion, from the beginning, was to train people to role play and let them role play under Heren Istarion in the wars. But of course if people want to come here just to tone their rp skills they do not need to have their profile fit the rp timeline. Galdor trains people to make good profiles and that is an essential part of role playing.

Now, as for Ainur characters, they are not allowed in the war rps and will be shunned upon in the more serious rps. If you looked at examples of rpgs, more wizards and maiar and other Ainur are in the more light hearted role plays. As for magic, the same goes. We never said you can't have magic. You can go to the Dark Legion and get trained in magic out the kazoo. But so long as you have had no training in magic you cannot use it (as has been told to me by rp veterans). Heren Istarion will not train magic here, as it is not our place. We are not fond of it. If you need magic to spice up your rp posts then I think you need more Heren Istarion than you know.

Feel free to question our leadership and our decisions as we are not perfect (as many prior events show:() and many times are at fault with our choices. But please do not think that were are pulling random answers and rules out of the air because that is not so.:)

Edit:

Goldie: if you are to fight in the war, you can't be an Elf from Lothlorien born in the time of Legolas and heir to the throne of Gondor. You have to be a character consistent with the times.

[Goldberry344]

Personally, i dont even know what is going on in the war or what it is being fought for. the leadership may want to rethink: Emphasize the timeline, and state clearly what it is for, but it should not be mandatory.

[Wonko The Sane]

Here's the thing: If that's the case then Galdor should be letting a LOT more people post their profiles on the profile thread. But he's not.
If it's true that you can not have a timeline specific RP character and still have your character in HI (so long as you don't fight in the war) then you should be set. There should be a lot more profiles on this thing.
But there AREN'T.

Why is that?

And furthermore, Goldie has just said that she doesn't care about the war.
Therefore she CAN be born at the time of Legolas and be the heir to the throne of Gondor.

They're OUR characters. I hate that you dictate to us what we can and can't do.

And furthermore if I want to be an Ent there's really NO reason why you should stop me.

In truth it DOES NOT MATTER if it's frowned upon in "most serious RPGs." What MATTERS is if it's frowned upon in the RP you happen to be a part of. There CAN BE serious RPs where there are wizards, Maiar, etc as characters. Usually not as MAIN characters but they can still play a role.

You really should just ease up on the reins of control here.

I want to be a part of Heren Istarion. To improve my RP skills and to learn about healing as part of my RP repertoire.

I DON'T want to be dictated to so strictly.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Actually Wonks, I think you have a valid point here. In HI, there are many people who dont give a flying **** about the wars and etc. Why can't the people who are not interested in these wars be any character they please if they just stay in HI and do non war related RPGs?

I am just curious and intrigued is all; what can we do about these people?

And Wonks- if you DONT care for being dictated then dont STAY here...:rolleyes: This is not a dictatorship thank you very much.

[Anamatar IV]

Wonko, a lot of people haven't posted profiles because Galdor has said he does not want any more profiles right now.

Goldie never actually said she didn't want to be in the wars (technically...she already is)

Yes there IS a reason I could stop you from being an Ent....they no longer EXIST! In Tolkien's works Ents were dwindling. There were few Ents and no Entwives. Sure there were Dragons in Tolkien's works but you can't have a character be a dragon since Smaug was said to be the last great dragon on Middle-earth.

Wonko, the goal of Heren Istarion is to not participate in Light Hearted rps that welcome and applaud Harry Potter like magic and fire works.

This is not a dictatorship in any meaning! We are telling you what we will not allow and if you wish to remain with us you should abide by them. Every single RP veteran, Elder, official, moderator, and role player average and above with skill would agree with us that magic is pretty much unacceptable and Ainu like characters cannot be and beings that deny Tolkien's own writings should not be.

Dain, there may be quite a few who don't care about the wars but that's fine. It's up to them. It's up to Galdor what he wants to do with the profiles for them (I'd like to see the rp time line specifics kept in...) There are still quite a few who want to enter the wars. But as long as they are willing to better their role playing skills we are willing to teach.

Wonko, let me ask you something. You say that you are in HI to tone your role playing skills and add Healing to your repetoire. Then why are you fighting this fight? It has no concern to you as a person or you as a character. So why do you keep pushing?

Another thing, what would you like to see done? Would you like to see Heren Istarion degraded to the level of a free for all with dozens of wizards flying around on broomsticks zapping enemies into frogs and burning down forests?


EDIT:

Talierin, experienced role playing says this about the matter of magic. She is not in HI...so do not doubt her word:

because every time we've had magic users in rps they get out of hand and do stupid things with their magic

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Ouch. ;)

I guess I should bring up the Ohtar Valaina before it can be used against us...

The Ohtar Valaina are the ONLY individuals who can use magic in the WAR RPGs!!! Why you ask? Because the last remaining head of the white council chose us: Myself, Galdor, Arathin, and Aerin. He bestowed us in the powers of the valar, in order to retain the forum history.

You can use magic in ANY RP you wish, and guess what: you DONT have to use the same character from HI, you can change it! I fail to see your goals here, Wonks. This is a place for primarily RPG training, and fundamentally the Wars. You have to follow the rules here in HI, concerning timelines and magic laws, etc. If you want to be Legolas' long lost wife, or a sorceress that can transform people into pigs, go ahead and make an RPG and do so. But in HI, you HAVE to be within the guild rules.

*God voice* So, bow on your knees and worship us simpleton!

:rolleyes: That was a JOKE!!!

[Nenya Evenstar]

Contrary to the popular opinion, I thank you Wonko for voicing your concerns. I think you have some extremely valid points and think that you have been treated like **** (literally) for voicing them. But I thank you. Perhaps you are like me and like to see change happen for the better of things?

I am completely against monitoring magic in the way that we are doing. I believe that Tolkien gave us specific guidelines to follow so that we would know what he meant in his uses of magic. In his very first writings (Book of Lost Tales), he uses the actual word "magic" to describe certain actions of the Elves. However, as time goes on he seems to have dropped that word and moved on to a more subtle use of the term. Magic was no longer a part of Tolkien's world. In place of magic he had different characters gifted with different abilities. Men, because they did not understand the abilities of the Elves and the Ainur, coined the word "magic" to fit. Thus you see that there is really no magic in Tolkien's world at all.

Since there is no magic in any way, shape or form, but only specific abilities gifted to the members of certain races, I do not think that we in Heren Istarion have any right whatsoever to dictate what type of "magic" (I will use the term for necessity's sake) people can use because there is absolutely no set guideline that tells even us what the correct type of "magic" is. All we can do is monitor it and give the students advice on what type of magic each race would use. For example, we can encourage the Elven folk of the guild to cultivate their character's inborn quality so that they can grow into truly believable Elves. Men have none of these powers (or very little) and should not be able to acquire them.

That is something that everyone must understand. In Tolkien's world no one, and I mean no one acquires "magic." People are either born with special abilities, or they aren't. There is no middle line. Sure, you can cultivate your inborn qualities, but other than that, there is absolutely no way your "magic" can grow.

I must say that I have a problem with the entire Ainur issue. All people need to realize is that the Ainur are creatures of Illuvatar created with a special gift. That is all. Maiar are the same way. The skills of a Maia cannot be learned by any craft that anyone can teach. It is not possible. The skills of a Maia can be accentuated by training so that the person can reach his/her fullest potential, but that person was born with all "magical" skills and did not acquire any of them during his/her life. I believe that people do a diservice to Tolkien's works as a whole by exempting from them the influences of the Ainur, especially the Maiar. We do not know how often the Maiar mess with the affairs of Men and Elves, but it is known that they do occasionally show up. Keep in mind that the Maiar are not the Istari . . . the Istari came to defeat Sauron. There are no more Istari in Middle-earth, true, but there ARE Maia. To have a world without Maia is slightly outrageous, if you ask me. They do exist.

The forum Eldar say that there has been a problem with Maiar in the past. I'm sure there has been, but I see no reason why this forum cannot learn to use Maiar correctly. I feel that the entire RP experience would be richer and more wonderful if we allowed all of Tolkien's colorful races to be used. If there is a problem with magic, take it to the person and tell them to read the books. You can get more than enough information on how Tolkien meant for his "magic" to be used by reading the books, and if people can't see this, they need to re-read the books a couple more times. I think the main problem lies in the fact that people consider it actual magic. It is NOT magic, but an inborn quality possessed by certain people of different races. I believe that the War RP's could be a lot more colorful with the use of "proper" Ainur.

Concerning the Ohtar Valaina I have just a few things to say. I understand that they are half Maiar, half human (or something like that). If that is the case, that is fine, but they had better have been born by parents one of whom was a Maia and one of whom was a human. They could not have acquired their characteristics by training or by any other phenomenon. Only by birth could they have acquired their powers. Perhaps Eru could have intervened into Arda and gifted them with powers, but I think that works directly against Tolkien's laws of his world. If the Ohtar Valaina were born with their powers, good and bless them; if not, something needs fixed.

Some of the outlines that Anamatar laid out for "magic" that Elves could not do are actually things that Nenya Evenstar can do and will always do. Elves are more than capable of communicating telepathically, and therefore Nenya can do it. It is one of her inborn qualities. From The Return of the King:Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they (the Elves) would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he say grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro. Therefore, Elves can communicate telepathically.

As for Elves cannot change temperature dramatically, I'm not sure what you mean. Elves seem to have a greater knack than humans at braving extreme weather conditions. Again, this is part of their race, a gift they have.

I suggest that instead of implementing rules that people can or cannot use certain "magic" that we should give our students this lecture and explain to them how the "magic" of Tolkien really works. As they post, we should watch their progress and give them constructive critisism on how we think they could improve their character's ingrown gifts and abilities, depending on their race. The word "magic" should not be used except as a clarifier.

Who says the rules cannot change? I am all for a believable world, but mostly for one that fits Tolkien's world that he so clearly outlined for us. I am fully confident that there are people who are able to use the more powerful races to a believable and enriching point.

Ents are an acceptable race to use, in my opinion. Quickbeam was a relitively young Ent in the time of Frodo, and could very conceivably still be living. And who knows how long Treebeard could have hung around? Besides, we do not even know if Ents are immortal or not. All debatable points.

I think that we need to give students the choice to make their profiles how they want. Perhaps in the future we can change this (as I hope for the War RP's to grow much bigger than they are), but for now we cannot enforce this. I do not believe it should be mandatory, but for the students to decide.

Thank you for hearing me through! This is how I feel magic should be treated in all aspects of a Tolkien forum. For example, those who are taking my Healing class will not all be able to perform all the same Healing maneuvers. The humans will only be able to work with healing in the area of herblore (though instances such as Aragorn's healing, or Numenorean healing will be introduced), but Elves will be allowed to branch out more and heal in more erotic ways. To each his own race!

[Scatha]

Now there is a solid reply to a topic, if I ever saw one.
Good work, Nenya. :)


Wonks, if you do not wish to play the WarRP's, you can always have your character profile posted on the Guild of Elves. I do not agree with the way this has been handled, less harsh answers to your grievances would have been so much more helpful.

I do have to state in defense of those that replied you, they only tried to bring a point across, led by a firm belief in this forum. Please don't be mad at them for trying to defend what they helped create and maintain.

[Anamatar IV]

A totally valid post, Scatha, and a true post, Nenya. But I am afraid there are certain things that I must differ with and will not allow in Heren Istarion:

Magic as in skills as in healing I never considered to be truly magical. Just...really a skill.

But one thing about that, Nenya, you plan on teaching your healers the skills of Aragorn (if they are Men). If you do do this you must NOT teach them with as much skill as Aragorn had

the hands of a king are the hands of a healer

As no one in Heren Istarion will be trained as a king (exception of Mountain kings...which aren't REAL kings:p) the level of healing should be somewhat lower.

You say there was magic in Tolkien's world. Yes there was "magic" among the Elves but the Elves were waning by the end of the third age. The ships have left the grey havens. There are no longer colonies of Elves in the rp timeline (Heren Istarion will continue to teach towards the Rp timeline).

Even in the third age the only truly "magical" people were the FIVE Istari. There are now FIVE Ohtar Valaina (To explain on the OV:

There are not Maiar, I have never heard the story they were half Maia half person, and they did not undergo any training (at least by my knowledge). They are people who excell in certain areas predetermined by the head of their order. Powers of the Valar have been bestowed in them)

As for Maiar being involved in the world of Men...I can't explain it other than no one wants to have Middle-earth turn into Aman. Look at throughout history. The VERY MOST amount of Ainur in Middle-earth after the Darkening of Valinor and the population of Middle-earth was 6: the Istari and Sauron in the third age.

Elves did not change temperature dramatically. Meaning they could not go into the middle of a lake frozen over and melt it.;)

As for the entire issue: there is nothing more for either side to say so I will say this: Heren Istarion will continue to train towards the RP timeline. We will not accept any magic such as pulling fire out of no where (or lightning or any of that for that matter), making huge storms, raising mountains, producing gallons of melted mithril, or any of that stuff. The *only* magic that will be taught in Heren Istarion is skills. Like healing. A character cannot just show up in Heren Istarion with magic (it just doesn't work like that). Any magic that is acceptable they will be trained for. I hope this clears up any question about magic (I had started a thread about this very topic....looks like it was totally and completely dismissed:rolleyes: )

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Nenya, I dont see how I treated her like ****, or anyone else for that matter. The only thing someone may take slight offense to is "bow down and worship us"... lol but I indicated that was a joke...

However, I myself thought Wonko's posts were a little disrespectable too.

You people at Heren Istarion are NOT the final word on RPGs and the OFFICIAL rules of the forum say nothing near as strict as this...onto next post...

They're OUR characters. I hate that you dictate to us what we can and can't do.

And furthermore if I want to be an Ent there's really NO reason why you should stop me.

Instead of stating her opinions in a nice manner, or even a question, she seems threatening and in a tone that makes me want to get nasty with her. We are no dictatorship Wonks, we just have rules; just like the good ole US of A. Of course it is your right to question them, but you also gotta do it in a way that can be talked about.

Now I am adamant in magic subtelety and such, Nenya you know this from the past. Ironically I am now part of the OV. We are trying to restart the WC for say, and as Tal has said, whenever magic people come into the RPGs, they ruin them. We all know this; theres always that one person. I think it would be better to say that the OV are gifted with the skills/knowledge (and few at that) of their respectable Valar, not magic. This HAS happened in the past, if you remember Ulmo favored and helped Hurin and while Hurin could not control the waves, he was given assistance by this Vala. Also Aule and Feanor had a relationship, along with Feanor's father in law. I do not think it necessary for the people to have Maia blood, as they can always have the favor of these respectable Valar, and were taught by them (aided) in learning what to do with the essence of life. I think we as the OV are trying to restart the WC in hopes that it will be opened to others in the future. But first we will take precautions to not make us gods of power, and more like Gandalf the Grey.

About the Ents, I would love to see an Ent in this guild, nowhere does it say when the Ents were wiped out of existence, nor if the Entwives were. Who knows? Maybe Quickbeam found himself a Sexleaf and they made a little Entling! (WOW THAT WAS A BAD JOKE!!!:p ) Anyways, whats wrong with an Ent? Or a Pukel-man? I have yet to see one of these on the guild. But the Maia... I dont know. There is no real way to prevent some people from magical overusing and causing the earth to split apart and swallow an entire army. Once again, the OV are being made so this wont happen. I have already voiced my opinions on the "magic" issue, and our goal is to be like the Istari, as we are very similar to them; we are vessels of the Valar. It is our job as HI to train people to be better RPers, and to teach them to wield magic is only asking for trouble; we are already doing more than enough already.

Nenya you always play the devil's advocate! Thats what makes you so irresistable! ;) :D

Haha!

[Galdor]

Your consern is noted Wonks, and it light of this I will be starting another RPG profile thread. In time the HI is going to start having some RPs on their own that are in no conected with the wars, or even Tolkien at times. Therefore I will have one thread where people can make profiles that do not have to coenside with the wars, and another where people can do just about whatever they want with their characters, I will of course still demand that they be done well.

Also, I do allow some magic, but it is up to my (and the GC's) judgement as to how much I will alow. I personally will also NOT allow any ents, maia, or vala, I'm not sure if I will allow Druedain yet though.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thanks Scatha. :)

I'm irresistable? :D
But one thing about that, Nenya, you plan on teaching your healers the skills of Aragorn (if they are Men). If you do do this you must NOT teach them with as much skill as Aragorn had The humans will only be able to work with healing in the area of herblore (though instances such as Aragorn's healing, or Numenorean healing will be introduced), Hence me using the word "introduced" instead of "taught."

Yes, we will seemingly have to agree/disagree (can't even figure out which we are. :confused: I, for one, stick to every single word I spoke in my last post because I feel that it is a direct interpretation of Tolkien's books.

As for the Ohtar Valaina, Elessar did say that they were half Maiar, actually. If you say that you are more like Gandalf the Grey then you'd better have a bit of Maiar blood in you because Elves and Humans are not capable of the powers of the Maiar. Dain, you used Feanor as an example. Keep in mind that Feanor could of course learn things from the Valar, but that did not give him the powers that the Valar had. He was only able to expand his own inborn qualities to their fullest potential. He could never have lit the tops of trees with fire or written "Gandalf is here" across the sky. No, he was only able to perform "magical" things as far as his elf-like capabilities would allow. Also, I was talking with Nom last night and she brought an interesting thing to my head. Each Elf does not have the exact same characteristics when it comes to the more "magical" things. No, Elves can grow in different areas just like some people in this world are gifted in music, others in science, others in art; so the Elves are each gifted with different gifts. The same can be said of the Maiar and the Valar. Altogether "magic" is an incredibly touchy issue, but I believe that if we simply look at the outline of the books that we can easily not worry about any problem that could potentially be caused by a use of magic.
Even in the third age the only truly "magical" people were the FIVE Istari. There are now FIVE Ohtar Valaina (To explain on the OV: What about Elven rope that unwound itself and shone with its own light? What about phials that broke the Will of the Watchers? What about cloaks that blended into the landscape? This is Elven "magic" (I hate the term, but will use it to lessen confusion), and any Elf that remains in Middle-earth during the current RP timeline will have certain similar characteristics. Of course the characteristics they have depends on where the lived during the War of the Ring, whether they were of Noldorin, Telerin, or Sindarin descent. Each of these different branches of the Elves will have different gifts because they cultivated their powers in different ways.

No, we would not be teaching magic. I do not believe in magic. I do not believe there IS any magic in Tolkien's world, only a phrase that men coined because they couldn't understand the gifts of the other races. I think that we should simply cultivate these gifts and shun the word "magic" because it does not exist. We need to help our students create believable races. With this comes a cultivation of their particular character according to his/her gifts.
The VERY MOST amount of Ainur in Middle-earth after the Darkening of Valinor and the population of Middle-earth was 6: the Istari and Sauron in the third age. Proof? The beginning of the Sil. shows us that Ulmo used the waters to give messages to the peoples of Middle-earth. Who says that the Maiar cannot come up from the waters to live for a while amongst men to guide and give counsel? Who says that the Valar did not send any Maiar into Middle-earth after the War of Wrath? No one, because Tolkien does not give us any written proof of it (as far as I know). I, personally, wish to believe that the Maiar were sent into the world continually to whisper comfort and give wisdom to those who needed it. I would not like to think that the Valar simply abandoned Middle-earth to itself. However, this is a debatable issue, and something that would take a lot of change in the forum. But, I am an advocate of it because I think that the powers of the Ainur can be used effectively and well and that without them some of Tolkien's colorful world is lost. :)

Sorry if I'm blabbing . . . I'm enjoying this. :D

[Wonko The Sane]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV

Wonko, let me ask you something. You say that you are in HI to tone your role playing skills and add Healing to your repetoire. Then why are you fighting this fight? It has no concern to you as a person or you as a character. So why do you keep pushing?


No. I am only here to hone my skills. I keep pushing because by your rules the character I use, the only one I have, is not acceptable.
You guys are on a power trip that should be quelled.

The reason I haven't quit (yet) is because I realise the value of trying to help improve the role playing skills of our forum members. It's important for them to know, for example, the history of Arda. But I HATE being dictated to. I think you should ease up on your rules.


I don't change my character because it's too much work. Not too much work to create a new one, but too much work to keep characters straight. I have one character and I use her for everything. If I were to start a serious RPG that demanded I play a new role I would do so. But until then I keep this character.

And Dain, why do I HAVE to follow every guild rule if it doesn't apply to me? I am using this character to learn healing. That is all. Not to fight in any wars. Nothing like that. So please just understand that not all these rules of yours are necessary ALL the time.

*Bows graciously to Nenya* Thank you, my dear. :) It does me well to hear those words. I appreciate your support and your opinion on the way I've been treated for voicing my opinion. It is my belief that one should not be treated so poorly merely for speaking her mind, or going against the grain of certain rules.

I agree with EVERYTHING you say. I am not asking that we be allowed to form ourselves into demi-gods. I am merely saying that it is my opinion that exactly the kind of "magic" Nenya speaks of be acceptable for use in HI.

As far as I'm concerned I do not see why there can be no more Ents. According to Tolkien many races were diminishing. The Hobbits were diminishing. If you go by that statement we shouldn't have Hobbits in our role plays. It's ludicrous. The thing about Ents is that you don't know how many there are, and you don't know where they are, and you don't know at what time they could wake up. And as far as Entwives go, Tolkien did not say that there were no more. He merely said that they left the Ents for parts unknown. It is not unconceivable that somewhere, far West or North they still dwell. In fact, when I read the book that was my belief. That the Entwives still did exist and were merely as hidden as the Ents themselves. That's one of Tolkien's main themes. There is "magic" and "magical" creatures are all around us. Most of the time they are out of sight. But sometimes, if we look hard enough, we can see evidence of their "magic", their existence, or their passing in everything. That's one of the charms of The Hobbit. It reads as if Hobbits dwell in any little grassy knoll of the Earth, only we don't ever meet them because they are shy, and hide so quickly. Just because they are out of sight does not mean they do not exist.

All I can say is that I'm glad that Nenya is teaching my healing class. Because SHE more than any of you knows the value of a little magic in the world. And she realises the importance of giving your students a bit more freedom in their roles.

Anamatar, I believe you are wrong about the level of healing Nenya should be allowed to teach with. Nenya is a powerful elf just as I am. She may not have the hands of a king, but Elvish hands have healing power of their own.
I suggest you step back from such rigidly defined areas of acceptable use. Open your mind to the fact that there are other ways to look at most anything.

And by the way, Anamatar, Mountain Kings ARE real kings. Their system of rule and their culture is different from that of men. They may not be kings of Gondor, but kings of Gondor are NOT the only kings out there. Dwarf kings are as REAL in their kingships as Aragorn was.

And you say we are not allowed to call lightning from "nowhere" but lightning comes not from nowhere. Lightning occurs through subtle changes in the electrical fields of the clouds. As an apprentice ELECTROMANCER I have that power to influence those electrical fields and the result is, you guessed it, lightning.

I agree with everything Nenya has said. :) Although we usually argue in Tar's spa, here I am in no disagreement.

And I am sorry to you Dain, and to anyone else who may have found my words forceful. A lot of meaning and tone is lost when you argue online because nobody can hear the inflection in your voice. My tone was stern, yes, but not threatening.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Humph.

I agree with you on the Ent thing Wonko.

The magic thing, that was a poor example as Nenya herself said she did not believe in magic at all! This has been a giant understanding from the beginning, and I know this is what Nenya wants: Tolkien "magic". Your magic you want is healing, but we really cant call it magic, and I think that is what this little argument was to begin with. There will not be lightning bolts and fireballs in Heren Istarion, Nenya I am sure will agree with me on that. But as to healing, what were you trying to accomplish? We already agreed that healing was an acceptable skill, but its not magic.

[Anamatar IV]

Wonko, I still fail to see how we are dictating. I am simply laying down rules. Is America dictating by saying that nobody under the age of 21 can smoke?

Wonko I have NEVER said you can't have magic in your character. I have merely said magic won't be taught in Heren Istarion and I don't want to see it in any of our in guild role plays (that would be magical overuse :p) You cannot just show up in Heren Istarion with magic (upon which this has been centered around). If you want magic you go to an organization to train for it that will teach it.

Wonko, have you read my thread on magic? READ IT. REread it if you must. Wonko if you will not be content with the word of Heren Istarion will you be content with the word of another? Like Elbereth of Dengen-Goroth or Tal?

Tell me, PLEASE, what seems like dictating to you? What seems like a powertrip to you? I would REALLY like to know because (unfortunetly:() the problem of dictating and powertrips has befallen Heren Istarion before (let's not go into it...if you wanna know PM me or I'll answer you over MSN.)

[Wonko The Sane]

I have read that thread. I do understand. And I too would hate to see people misusing magic.

The problem I have with this is not merely that you say no magic, but that there is no grey area.

The problem I have is that you limit individuality and creativity SO much by forcing people to conform to your rules. Some of your rules are well meant and necessary. For example, while I do not see any reason to have NO Maiar RPG characters I do believe most people would misuse them.

But to bar Ents? To ban "magic" all together...

I am only an apprentice to the Dark Queen...but here's what I am meant to be able to do: Subtly influence electrical fields. I can't call lightning from the sky, but I can influence the electrical fields to make suitable conditions for lightning. And I rarely if ever use any "magic" anyway...

As far as healing goes, I never saw a problem with your take on THAT kind of magic. Latent Elvish ability is completely different. I agree.

Look. What I see as dictating and power tripping is this: You are making the rules so rigid, so inflexible that in some areas creativity is stifled. You say absolutely NO magic. Absolutely NO Ents. Perhaps this is a good rule for the wars and things. But if someone is not going to fight in the war, I don't see why Heren Istarion should have a problem with it.
Maybe people misuse their powers. There is a tendency for some role players to want to be all powerful and get completely out of hand.
Perhaps Heren Istarion should focus more on teaching people how to USE their characters. How to be subtle. To teach people the limits of role playing as well as the boundless expanses where no real rules apply.
Very few people could handle being Maiar in an RPG. Perhaps as trainers you should teach people how to handle such power. How to be realistic with their characters, rather than to stifle them.

I guess that's my real point. Don't just have blanketed exclusionary rules like "No magic." Some people can handle it. Some can't.
Maybe you should start evaluating the people that can to make sure they TRULY can handle it.
And teach those that can't how they can do so.
And if they can't follow those rules and make their character realistic maybe some disciplinary action would be necessary.

That's how I would do it. I would relinquish some of my power as a trainer to my students, to let them grow with their character.
I would guide them rather than control them.
That's what I mean by a power trip.
I would do it differently. But that's just me.

[Nenya Evenstar]

The magic thing, that was a poor example as Nenya herself said she did not believe in magic at all! Whoa! I do not believe in the word "magic" but I do believe that there are magical things. I believe that a certain Maia could be more than capable of pulling lightning out of the sky because I believe Gandalf would have been capable of that. Of course some other Maia might not have the same ability but might instead be able to say, speak with the animals. Different gifts, different abilities, but all in all magic. I hate the term, but in our day and age that is what it is: in Tolkien's world, it's not.

I have absolutely no problem with Wonko's ability to influence the electrical fields as long as she has the blood of a Maia in her. Perhaps even an Elf might learn that ability though, considering the hold Galadriel seemed to have on her realm. I cannot know, I cannot make the rules, I can only guide students to make good, realistic characters. I will not question Wonko's ability to influence the electrical fields as long as she has an explanation for the ability, whether it be that she has Maiar blood or some particulary influential Elvish gift. I'd prefer the Maiar blood . . . the other one is debatable.
Perhaps Heren Istarion should focus more on teaching people how to USE their characters. How to be subtle. To teach people the limits of role playing as well as the boundless expanses where no real rules apply. *goosebumps* I have to say that I myself have fallen short of this in my attempt to connect Heren Istarion with the War RP's. However, I think that these are the wisest words I have heard in a long time. After all, we are a guild to teach role-playing, NOT a guild to get people into the War RP's. I used to think that it would be wonderful to be able to have a direct connection with the War RP's . . . however, I am beginning to think that we should break those ties and become simply a place to train people to role-play. It would be so much more rewarding and so much better for the community as a whole. Our system is set up wonderfully to teach people this, and we can only add better improvements as time goes on.

Look at the magic issue this way: Wonko's character has powers. There is nothing we can do about that. Her character is able to influence the electric field . . . nothing we can do can stop that. We can't tell her, "No, your character cannot do that," because that is not our business and would not be fair. What we can do is make sure that her character has these abilities for a realistic reason and that she uses these abilities well. This will only insure that she becomes a good role-player because it will prove that she knows how to handle magic. If we don't teach students how to use magic well, how will they ever learn to use it well in RP's outside the guild? I think we'll be failing if we refuse to coach our students in their "magical" areas.

Also, we have no classes at the moment that teach "magical" abilities. So what's the problem? We don't actually teach "magic," so if we get a student who has certain powers, why shouldn't we allow that student to cultivate that part of role-playing? Of course I will always stick to the idea that the students would presumably have to have some sort of Maia blood. That's the only way I can see powers of this kind. But remember, Luthien probably had powers above the average Elf: Her mother was a Maia.

Altogether, I'd say that we need to stop concentrating on training people for the Wars. The Wars need a lot of work at the moment and I know that as a guild we can go a lot farther if we stop worrying about completely complying with the Wars. We should be a guild with our own little world because at the moment our little world doesn't even remotely fit in with the RP timeline.

I think Wonko has a very amazing point here. BTW, Wonks, maybe we don't disagree so much about things either in Tar's Spa . . . only my character Nenya does. I have another character now who's joined the DL. :D

[Anamatar IV]

I have talked with Nenya about this matter and it seems I have not explained myself clear enough!:(

Here is what I meant the entire thread:

No one can come into Heren Istarion just claiming to have magic. But there can be magic in HI. If you go to the Dark Legion and learn magic then when you come to HI saying you are trying in pyromancy or whatever at the Dark Legion good you can have magic. If you have maian descent you can have magic. If you have a VERY GOOD excuse you can use magic.


Is this matter finally resolved?:rolleyes:

[The_Swordmaster]

This is a litttle off the subject with magic. But I was wondering why are Dwarves called Mountin Kings. Do we get a little country after we graduate because that would be really cool? Or are we trained like kings? Just wondering.

[Anamatar IV]

I think it's really just a name. There is no land to give out in Heren Istarion and I don't know if anyone can be "trained" as kings. But for the origin of this name...Azog came up with it. He comes up with many names of creatures from Warcraft III. Maybe this creature was the Dwarven one.

[The_Swordmaster]

Thank you for clearing that up for me. It just seemed like a weird title. I think that is a WC3 charater.

[Wonko The Sane]

Nenya I agree completely, and though I haven't worked out my character's lineage as yet I'll consider this Maiar thing when I finally make the revamps necessary for a good profile.

But I do agree with everything else you've said. I really appreciate your support, and I especially like this:

However, I think that these are the wisest words I have heard in a long time. After all, we are a guild to teach role-playing, NOT a guild to get people into the War RP's. I used to think that it would be wonderful to be able to have a direct connection with the War RP's . . . however, I am beginning to think that we should break those ties and become simply a place to train people to role-play. It would be so much more rewarding and so much better for the community as a whole. Our system is set up wonderfully to teach people this, and we can only add better improvements as time goes on.

I really think that since you are right, you can't stop people from having characters with magic or from wanting to use magic it's important to try to train people to use it properly. :) Or else the RPs are going to be a mess.
If you don't personally believe characters should have magic that's one thing...but to not to help teach those who want magic how to use it properly well...you do yourself a disservice because frankly, any RPG you're in with one of those people will probably get a bit out of hand.

One issue I have with claiming to have Maiar blood as justification for magic: We can't have everyone claiming to be part Maia. And not only because it'll make people power happy. Just simply because it didn't happen that often.
I'd prefer to get around it if possible...I mean, rather than have one of my character's parents be Maiar perhaps to be descended from an elf such as Luthien would be wiser.
Although if you can justify your marginal magic (such as mine...and it IS marginal...) through other means, ie "training under a dark queen" or a "reawakening" of maiar blood from when one's lineage crossed with a maiar that might be preferable.

And Anamatar: I thank you kindly for your concession. *bows* It seems we've reached some sort of compromise, if not total agreement.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Yay, someone agrees with me! :D

Wonko, I think it's fine if you claim descent from someone with Maia blood in them (like Luthien). As long as your claims are not too far fetched and could conceivably happen, I'm fine with it. After all, you are an elf and could easily have been around in the Second or even the First Age.

I too could foresee a problem with too many people claiming Maia descent . . . but if that happens it will only show a lack of maturity in the role-playing skills of most of the people involved. That's where we'd come in.

All I ask is that if your character has powers above the norm that you justify those powers by a realistic and conceivable means.

[Goldberry344]

a new issue.

papers have been issued as of late

a test is one thing, it doesnt take much time.

but a paper is something else

I am in 10th grade.

i have REAL homework.

I have no time to myself.

I now have two papers to write for HI classes, one by friday, one by sunday (thanks for the extention, nenya!!!).

The problem is that its near the end of the year. i have to put ALL the time i can into school if i want to be in AP classes next year.

between an english creative writing portfolio, a history term paper, acting projects, chemistry test, editing a newsletter, prepairing for next year's SATs, and an oral project due in French, i have no time to be doing a paper. its all i can do to even get on the forum in the first place.

am i the only one with this problem? is there a solution? Could the teachers of HI perhaps schedual all papers to be due on sundays (gives us the weekendto work on them) and arrange it so students will never have more than one a week? im sorry, i just really cant manage the time.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I would be willing to give my students an entire Heren Istarion week (28 days) to write a paper issued in my classes. For example, if I want a paper written in Races of Arda I will say that it's due next class. Would you be able to juggle a couple papers this way?

BTW, very valid point. We homeschooled freaks don't have this problem. ;)

[Goldberry344]

that would be much better. baisically the point of my huge post would be to simply ask the teachers to talk to each other when they are assigning things (like papers) that will take a long time, and to schedual them so they are not due too close to eachother.

thanks.

[¤-Elessar-¤]

I think this was expressed before, but I just wanted to show my agreeance with the point

- Heren Istarion is a group that you have chosen to be a part of. Their rules may not all be to your liking, but you can change your profiles once you leave. We simply let you know what is considered acceptable to the rest of the forum and what isn't.

And, on magic, you should know that I probably have the biggest influence on the side of the 'light' in this subject. I positively abhor rules against or for the use of 'magic' (a word which, along with 'wizard', I have positive distaste for). I tell my people to do what they want with their 'powers', just as long as they write it with style and elegance.

The powers that we have are nothing of what Tolkien had. We are not Maiar, we are people of middle earth. If you would read the thread of the Ohtar Valaina (link in my sig) you will see the justification of how our powers are justified.

And I don't think anyone here can tell me wether or not I am doing as Tolkien would have had it, because you flat out are not Tolkien.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Goldberry:

I would love to help you with your French project... and Elessar, good post, nobodys Tolkien, no matter how much you want to be.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Goldie, I'll try to make sure that the teachers correspond better in the future -- let one of us know if anything gets out of hand.

And as for the other point, no, nobody's Tolkien, but we can get a pretty good idea of what Tolkien meant. I follow what I believe the books say . . . nothing else.

[Wonko The Sane]

Look...the papers thing is tough...so just giving us more time is a good thing.

But I also find I've been missing my classes by just one real day....Are there stiff penalties for this?

[Nenya Evenstar]

As long you show up in the class within its four day period I'm fine with it. It shows that you're reading and participating. So don't worry about having to show up on the first day if you can't -- though it would be nice if you could. ;)

[Wonko The Sane]

But it seems that by the time I get to the computer or that post in my e-mail box that it's just ONE day after the last day of class?

What do I do?

[Nenya Evenstar]

Oh, I see! You're missing the classes by one day at their end. Hmm . . . I'll see what I can do about lengthening them. I'll have to see what everyone else says first. :)

[YayGollum]

I dn't get why all of these crazy classes have certain times you're supposed to be in them. Sometimes people would be able to post in them before they actually start and not when the crazy day you're talking about is over. I don't see why people can't just post in the thread whenever they feel like it. Sure, I guess it gives people an excuse to go to those crazy dorm things and not have one day of the same class going on for forever, but what's wrong with just having these class things going on for forever and letting these teaching people switch whatever crazy lessons they have all the time? People can hang out in their little dorm places whenever they feel like it. Why make people have to worry about when they're able to get on a computer? :confused:

[Nenya Evenstar]

Because we are trying to create a realistic world the like of which has not yet been seen on TTF. If we have classes I want it to be realistic and not have all students in fifty places at once. It is also in a sense an expiriment to see how well something like this can work. So far it has worked wonderfully.

Another reason is that the teachers do not post unless they are forced to. So, with days that they have to follow they have no choice but to post.

Also, in order to actively participate in these classes we need to insure that the students do visit regularly. The timeline enforces that.

Last, but not least, wherever I'm involved you'll have change and expiriments. :D

[YayGollum]

Oh, Ick. oh well. Sounds too organized. I don't see what's wrong with just posting in any old thread any old time. Sure, people wish they could show every single little 'day', but when they can't they get yelled at even though this thing is supposed to be fun. Or is it only supposed to be fun for certain people and everyone else should just suck it up? I have no idea.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, it's supposed to be fun for everyone, and I'm not aware of anyone in the guid who is not having fun. If there are people who aren't having fun they should take their complaints to the leadership. We are more than willing to work things out. :)

[YayGollum]

Taking complaints to the leadership. Questioning authority in this thread. Sounds like they're pretty much the same thing. Oh, but I'm not a member, am I? I'm just a guest. oh well. Yes, it makes all kinds of sense that I shouldn't be paid attention to here. :rolleyes:

[Nenya Evenstar]

I was referring to the parts of your post about students getting yelled at etc. I'm not aware that that has ever happened.

As for the rest . . . yes, you are a guest, but it would still be nice if you were happy. However, we can't change the timeline . . . it just started! We just added another day to a HI day, so maybe that will help. ;)

[YayGollum]

Oh. Well, I happened to notice some people showing up early and having people telling them to get out and come some other time. I don't get what's wrong with just posting in any old thread any time you have have time to. oh well. We gots to help out the crazy people having fun with their scary experiment on us. :rolleyes:

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, I happened to notice some people showing up early and having people telling them to get out and come some other time.People are told this because they haven't read all the threads they are supposed to. If they'd read the threads, they wouldn't post where they weren't supposed to.

Yeah, you have to help us crazy people out. :rolleyes:

[YayGollum]

Okay, well, now you know what I meant when I said that people were yelled at. I wasn't being crazy. Anyways, still, Ick. If a person cares about one of these crazy class things, they'll post in them. Making some rule saying that you're only allowed to post in some threads at certain times is just crazy. Restrictiveness where it's not needed. Who does it help?

[Nenya Evenstar]

I'm sorry you don't like it Yay, but there's nothing I can do about that.

[YayGollum]

Ah. Got it. You can't do anything about it. sorry about that. *sits and waits for someone with more authority to show up*

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

OK. Yay. Ick. Nenya is the leading authority in HI, next to Anamatar, and she is the one that came up with this idea. Ick. If it is decided that this innovative idea doesn't work, then we will revert to the older methods. Oh well. But as of right now, go along with it, and just *try* to have fun. If you absolutely cannot stand it, then you have every right to not participate. Craziness! Nenya has worked really hard on this, so lets just give her some respect eh? *hides*

:rolleyes:

[YayGollum]

What'd I do to offend you? Anyways, yes, I know that this Nenya Evenstar person is some kind of high up person over here, but she said that there was nothing she could do about it. Sounded like she was dismissing the subject. I'm having all kinds of fun with waiting for whoever can do something about it. Also, it's not that I'm not having fun, I'm just looking our for everyone else.

[Anamatar IV]

Alright, Yay, you want someone who can do something about it here I am.;)

It really isn't all that confusing if people read the thread that is at the top of this forum. That explains everything. No one needs to be yelled at if they read it. I get the impression some students don't know what's going on.:(

[Galdor]

btw, a little note, Nenya is not second in command in this guild. For all practical purposes the chain of command goes as follows.

1. Anamatar
2. Grand Council(all GC members are equal).
3. Trainers(all trainers are equal).

[YayGollum]

Yes, I can see how it wouldn't be confusing for people who would just do the research they're supposed to, but even if it is simple :rolleyes: , isn't letting people post in whatever threads they feel like posting in whenever they feel like posting in them a little more simple? Let everything be straightforward? Why force people to read more than they have to? Reading a little thread that's explaining certain ways to do things isn't as fun as just going ahead and doing them. Why restrict? What's so bad about just talking in any old thread any old time? Keep the teachers on their toes. :D

[Nenya Evenstar]

Because it's a new idea and that's just the way things are.

[YayGollum]

Oh, it's a new idea? I thought that I've seen this craziness everywhere and it's superly accepted everywhere! :rolleyes: Ack! Yes, I know that it's new. Also, yes, I know that that's just the way things are. If it wasn't, would I be trying to help people with it? :rolleyes:

[Wonko The Sane]

I can tell people are getting um...short..with Yay.

And Yay does bring up a good point. It IS much easier to just post when you have time. (I know I miss classes...)

But where you're wrong Yay is that nobody yells at us and they give us plenty of slack and as long as we remain active and make an effort it works out and we get props.

The problem is while it may be easier for the teachers (who seem to only teach a few classes at a time) it's a lot harder on the students (in many classes at once) to keep track of the timeline.

But it's still new, still being worked out, and still subject to change. :D

That's about all I have to say.

And Yay, you've already talked to Anamatar. He's the leader. :) There's nobody higher up to wait for.

But I'll help you. *sits and waits with Yay*

[YayGollum]

Oh, I thought I explained that yelling at students thing. I happened to notice people showing up in those little class type threads, talking about being early or something, then having teaching type people showing up and telling them to get out. I don't really remember if it was with a raised voice. oh well.

Anyways, yes, I know that this evil anamatar iv person has paid attention to at least one of my posts, but I still feel like ranting about it. He complained about some people not knowing what's going on. I came up with a solution. People can tell that it's simpler the way I'm suggesting it. Noone answered my question about why you should restrict.

[Wonko The Sane]

I think the restrictions make it easier on the teachers to keep track of things...
Or to keep control over rowdy students.
:rolleyes:

I do remember the thread where someone (Ingolemo? Anamatar? Galdor?...one of them) was like, "Nobody should be posting. This class is closed. Delete your posts."

That was kind of harsh. :rolleyes:

[YayGollum]

Thank you. Anyways, Ick. Oh, Yay for helping the teachers and not the students at the same time! Ranks are always better than everyone being equal! :rolleyes:

[Wonko The Sane]

Well...it IS a school.
So having teachers is necessary...
And in such a role so is respect for them.

But I really do agree that more equality and less structure might help people make classes and feel easier about posting.

I think people get too stressed out with the schedule...and we have enough RL stuff to be stressed about anyway.

But on the other hand it provides a set point for teachers to end classes.
It would be LUDICROUS to have them just go on forever.

So the structure is inconveinent and sometimes stressful, but all in all I think it helps more than it hurts...

Although...it does hurt some.

[YayGollum]

I don't see how not being so strict would be harmful. Anyways, sure, I've got nothing against tossing gobs of respect at teachers who are supposed to be teaching, but I don't see why people should be offensive. oh well. That didn't happen too many times. I'm just being evil and stubborn. Also, what's so ludicrous about letting classes go on for forever? If the teacher has nothing else to say, stop the thing.

[Wonko The Sane]

I think that having the classes go on forever would require the teacher to post more frequently and the posts would be long and difficult and time consuming.

Though if you think about it that level of difficulty is no worse than the level of difficulty for the students who must post seriously and constantly in all classes. :rolleyes:

(If they show up...;))