Judging of the Sauron Debate

[Maedhros]

This thread has the purpose of deciding who won the debate.
The judges are: ithrynluin, Nóm and me.
I will hopefully post my judgement by Sunday, I wanted to do it sooner, but I'm overrun by work right now.
There is a poll for those of you who want to vote also.

[Aulë]

Well debated guys,
jimzeller and gondorian both put a lot of effort in, but they never convinced me that the Rings were't Sauron's ruin.
Inderjit, you debated spendidly, and had some wonderful rebuttles. My vote goes to you.


jimzeller and gondorian45, one thing that I found difficult when reading you're posts was the quoting. I know you are both new, so I'll give you a quick runover.:)

Quoting: [*quote] TEXT [*/quote] (Without the *s)
For directly quoting someone elses post, click on the 'quote' button on the bottom right corner of the post.


For more info on vB codes, go here: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/misc.php?s=&action=bbcode

[Feanorian]

Well i tried that and it never seems to work, with the borders around the quote, I apologize maybe it is something in my settings.



For directly quoting someone elses post, click on the 'quote' button on the bottom right corner of the post.

[QUOTE]

[Nóm]

The unusual thing about this debate is that I think both teams could be right without the other having to be wrong, because the angle taken by each team was one that didn't directly contradict that of the other.

While the Inderjit-Mirabell team was able to hinder some points of the opposing team, I do not think that any of this damaged the main arguement.

I'll also say that I was suprised at the angle taken by Feanorian-jimzeller team, as it is not the one that entered my mind, which by the way, is one that need not have required much if any information found only in HoMe. It was an interesting view.

Jimzeller-Feanorian did well going up against one with a bigger knowledge of some relevant writings found in HoMe.

Cogratulations to all, I call this debate even.

I vote for the dreaded draw. :D

[Ithrynluin]

I myself have never been convinced that the One Ring was (not) the ruin of Sauron, and my opinion still holds firmly. The premise that creating the Ring WAS Sauron's downfall may perhaps be easier to defend, since there is more "obvious" evidence to prove that case. Inderjit did however argue his side more persuasively in my opinion. He also summed up his case nicely:

by Inderjit S
Sauron, in creating the ring, gave people a chance, (however unlikely the chance was) to destroy him. Could they have destroyed his Maiaric spirit to such effectivness without the ring? No. Was the ring is his ruin then? Yes. It was the only effective way in which he could be destroyed.

Feanorian and jimzeller did provide several good arguements, but I somehow felt that your flow of thought was less consistent.

by Feanorian
After the Ring was destroyed he fled from Middle Earth to regain his spiritual prowess and abilities, and on the day that Sauron's master returns so will so greatest servant though not in body but in spirit, allowing him to once again effect the peoples that he inflicts his evil on........

Sauron was not Morgoth. After being utterly defeated, there was no hope for him "rising" in any way ever again. There is no mention of Sauron at the Dagor Dagorath, and we may suppose that this is so for a reason - he was destroyed completely, reduced to a mere impotent spirit of malice.

My judge's vote goes to Inderjit S.

On the whole, an interesting and enjoyable debate! Congratulations everyone.:)

[Maedhros]

I have to congratulate the participants. It was a brillant debate.
First I would like to point out a few things.
1. Personally, I think that the side which argues that the Ring was the Ruin of Sauron has an edge.
2. Inder had a more complete knowledge of the books, but he has left alone to debate against two very good competitors.
When I choose the topic, I would have liked for the participants to touch the side that could Sauron had lasted throught the 2 and 3 ages without the ring?
Could Sauron after the destruction of Númenórë could have reincarnated himself? Could Sauron after his defeat in the battle of the Last Alliance could have enough power of his spirit to be a force to be reckoned with?
I think that Inder did a superb job with his arguments, and all of his quotes from the books were excellent.
Feanorian and Mr Jim both did an excellent work and their angle was very innovative.
I would have to give my vote to Inder, but I wonder how the debate would have turned out if Feanorian or Mr jim had read HOME.
Feanorian and Mr Jim, I tip my hat to you both.
Thanks to all of the participants. This is the kind of quality of debate that makes me and our guild proud.

[baragund]

Thanks, everybody, for the kind thoughts. Your support really makes me feel welcome, and I am glad all of us in the debate put in an effort to do our guild proud. I'm looking forward to doing more of these as well as just "chewing the fat" with all of you.

Maedhros, you'll be happy to learn I broke down this weekend and bought vol. 1, 2 and 4 of the HOME series as well as Tolkien's letters.:) I've read too many snippets of fascinating material quoted from these books not to have them. Eventually, I'll have the entire series.:D

[Maedhros]

I'm glad to hear that Mr. Jim, perhaps I can help you in your book search too.

[Feanorian]

I also have made an effort to buy the complete serious of HOME I have two of them but will now be buying the remaining 10 because I get paid this week:D:D