Was Boromir Trustworthy?

[Aredhel]

I want forum members honest opinion on this. Was Boromir trustworthy, or should anyone have trusted him(Elrond)? In my opinion, Boromir was trusting(don't forget brave). He may have had a lust for the Ring itself, but think of what he did to protect Merry and Pippin when Aragorn wasn't there. He also helped them in Moria, when they were under attack.

[Greymantle]

I think Boromir is a great character, often grossly misunderstood. He is noble, kind, and valiant. However, his pride and love for his home prove his downfall-- it is these sorts of emotions that the Ring most easily preys on.

[LadyEowyn]

Originally posted by Aredhel
I want forum members honest opinion on this. Was Boromir trustworthy, or should anyone have trusted him(Elrond)? In my opinion, Boromir was trusting(don't forget brave). He may have had a lust for the Ring itself, but think of what he did to protect Merry and Pippin when Aragorn wasn't there. He also helped them in Moria, when they were under attack.

I have to admitt, I didn't like him at first, but he proved to be a great guy at the end. And I think he died honorably.

[Courtney]

I think Boromir was trustworthy, and that the only reason he wanted the ring was that he thought it could help him save his people, which is very noble.

[Grond]

Courtney has the correct answer.

Many people fail to identify with Boromir and forget that he was "the heir to Denethor". In other words, he was the heir to the throne of Gondor. Of course, he would just be a steward and have a small throne below the real one but he would still rule in the name of the King.

With that role came tremendously responsibility. Boromir already realized the futility of waging war on Sauron. With his resources, it was inevitable that Mordor would overcome. I think Boromir was satisfied with Aragorn's claim but doubted that he had any real strength other than his sword. So.... Boromir hoped that he could possess the Ruling Ring and overcome the evil of Mordor and rule Gondor as King. Goodly and tolerant, wise and just. Only, he never understood the overwhelming evil that the possessor of the Ring would encounter and be devoured by.

At least that's the way I see it.... but I am a hammer and hammer's have no brains at all!!:D

[LadyEowyn]

Originally posted by Courtney
I think Boromir was trustworthy, and that the only reason he wanted the ring was that he thought it could help him save his people, which is very noble.

I agree.

[ReadWryt]

I think he had a desire for the Ring, which imediately made him even MORE influenced by it's seduction. Tom Bombadil didn't want it, and it had NO effect on him...and Galadriel had no desire for it...we all see how little it influenced HER. Gandalf, were he possessed of the Ring, would have been hellaciously powerfull and could have done a great deal. I should hunt down the quote from the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien in which he writes about what probably would have happened if Mithrandir had the Ring, but I digress...Gandalf showed no sign of wanting for the Ring and so never felt it's draw.

Poor old Bilbo, upon meeting up with Frodo after the adventure, asked where "his" Ring was. It had been a possession that he cherished, and so it had great influence over him. Boromir desired it...even though he may have for good reasons, it made him act wrongly in a moment of weakness, it's seduction working hard at his mind and heart. It would be all too easy, in a story written by another author in which two dimentional characters who you never really care about, to hate Boromir, but because Tolkien breathed so much complexity and life into these "people" one who reads about Boromir with an open mind and heart would be hard pressed to dislike him greatly...That's my opinion anyways. *Shrug*

[Lantarion]

At another thread somebody asked the question "Do You Think Boromir Was Evil?", and I would answer 'no', because he was brave, strong-willed, noble, humorous and helpful. But he was too obsessed with the glorious future of Gondor, and that is ehy the Ring had such an effect on him: his mind was totally open for the Ring's corrupting influence.
I wouldn't say he was trustworthy, though. He was too suspicious, paranoid and cynical for that.

[Walter]

So, is it all that noble wanting to save "the own people" and sacrifying the rest of the world for it?

I would also like to throw in that Frodo felt forced to leave the fellowship mainly due to Boromirs attempt to get hold of the ring.

To me Boromir appears as one who couldn't control his urge for power.

[Grond]

Walter, your statement makes Boromir seem insidious and evil. He was neither if those things. He was prideful and more than anything wanted his father to be King and for himself to appear Kingly. He didn't realize that it is one's heart which detemines that and not one's appearance or actions. His main motivation for stealing the Ring was the deliverance of Minis Tirith. He would then be viewed as its saviour and I'm sure he felt his father would then get to finally be declared King and not Steward. That would make him next in line for the throne.

I think this behavior illustrates how little Numenorean blood Boromir possessed. It is apparent that Faramir got the Lion's share of the Numenorean blood. It's easy to compare, both had the ring almost in their grasp and one tried to take it by force and yet, the other brother aided it on its way to Mordor.

Having said all that, I truly pity Boromir. As many who try to act against evil, they end up performing an evil act in the name of righteousness. That's doens't make them evil, it just makes them act in an evil manner. :)

[Mr. Underhill]

I also think Boromir was brave and trustworthy. Yes, he was seduced by the power of the Ring, but the Ring was an extremely powerful temptation and he was but a mortal man of limited Numenorean heritage as was mentioned earlier. I believe he redeemed himself in the end by defending Merry and Pippin to the death, thereby revealing his true colors.

[LadyEowyn]

Originally posted by Mr. Underhill
I also think Boromir was brave and trustworthy. Yes, he was seduced by the power of the Ring, but the Ring was an extremely powerful temptation and he was but a mortal man of limited Numenorean heritage as was mentioned earlier. I believe he redeemed himself in the end by defending Merry and Pippin to the death, thereby revealing his true colors.

I completely agree.

Just to let everyone know, I finished the book...and that was a very sad ending.

[Grond]

One cannot end a post with "...and that was a very sad ending." and stop there. Please explain why you thought it was sad and from who's perspective. It was, indeed, sad that Frodo had to leave ME and wasn't able to reap some of the rewards he deserved. It was sad to see the end of the Eldar times and the beginning of the dominion of man... but these things were inevitable if the Quest to destroy the Ring was successful.

Please let us know what part sddenned you deeply so that we on the forum may share your sadness.:)

BTW, congratulations on finishing the book. Now............ read it again and study the appendices. There will be a test at 5:00 this Wednesday.:D

[LadyEowyn]

Originally posted by Grond
One cannot end a post with "...and that was a very sad ending." and stop there. Please explain why you thought it was sad and from who's perspective. It was, indeed, sad that Frodo had to leave ME and wasn't able to reap some of the rewards he deserved. It was sad to see the end of the Eldar times and the beginning of the dominion of man... but these things were inevitable if the Quest to destroy the Ring was successful.

Please let us know what part sddenned you deeply so that we on the forum may share your sadness.:)

BTW, congratulations on finishing the book. Now............ read it again and study the appendices. There will be a test at 5:00 this Wednesday.:D

Haha, sorry about that. I'm not sure why i thought it was sad, otherwise I would have told you guys why. I'm sure it has something to do with them leaving. hmm....

[Ancalagon]

I posted this response to a thread started many moons ago by Elessar named 'Sorrow'.

I think the death of Boromir was probably the bitterest pill to swallow. A proud man, tormented by the desire to regain the glory of a diminished nation, yet corrupted by the lust for that which might have delivered it. He died, repentent, proud and valiant, yet lived, tormented and disillusioned. Aragorn and Gandalf both knew the anguish and expectations of Denethor. Faramir also bore the curse of the stewardship that drove Boromir to his end. Yet, he did not expect or search out glory, only the simple recognition of a father. This he was always denied, ever in the shadow of his mighty brother. I feel this is a tale of woe, similar to many that Tolkien developed, yet doomed to the same fate as many who had befallen a similar curse upon the Houses of Men long, long before.

Boromir was certainly trustworthy, without doubt he was corrupted as are many mortals by their desire to succeed where all else has failed. The ring gave him new found hope that only a few would have ever truly understood. Sadly, if you know the history of the ring, you will know it's power over even the strongest. Was Isildur to be trusted?

[Grond]

Damn Anc. That's exactly what I was trying to say. My only exception is that I feel Faramir was resigned to his station. He mya have begrudged it but sought nothing more than what he had.

Over all your quote relates my own feelings, though put forth much more eloquently. (You just won't let me be beaten in the polls.... you have to prove you are a better writer as well).:(

[Walter]

Grond: I didn't intend to make Boromir look insidious and evil, all I meant was exactly what I said "He couldn't control his urge for power" and that is pretty much the same I read in Your reply...

Boromir was brave and trustworthy too, but only to a point.

And I too have had certain sad feelings when I had finished reading the LotR - happens at times when a book has thrilled me in a way where I felt I had been totally absorbed in the story and all of a sudden feel thrown mercilessly back into reality...

[Grond]

Originally posted by Walter
So, is it all that noble wanting to save "the own people" and sacrifying the rest of the world for it?

I would also like to throw in that Frodo felt forced to leave the fellowship mainly due to Boromirs attempt to get hold of the ring.


Walter, my issue was not that quote but the two above.

1) In saving Gondor, Boromir would have been saving the rest of the world as it was the most powerful of all the kingdoms of man on ME during the time of the Ring. If it fell, all others would also. I also didn't say he wasn't greedy or desirous of power only not necessarily evil.

2) Frodo left the fellowship because Boromir's actions made him realize that the quest was his alone and that others in the party may also have succumbed to its power. So it was the actions and not the character of Boromir that made Frodo leave.

At least that's how Grond sees it.

BTW, I appreciate your knowledge and enthusiasm Walter and agree with you on most items. My disagreements are not personal and I hope they don't come off that way.:)

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Grond
I think this behavior illustrates how little Numenorean blood Boromir possessed. It is apparent that Faramir got the Lion's share of the Numenorean blood. It's easy to compare, both had the ring almost in their grasp and one tried to take it by force and yet, the other brother aided it on its way to Mordor.

I actually have a different take on this (surprise, surprise)... Do not forget that many of purer Numenorean lineage than Boromir did far greater evil and were far less noble.

I think specifically of:
Castamir
Ar-anything of Numenor (Adunakhor & Pharazon, are the only two I can consistently recall to memory :D)
Pelendur, father of the first ruling steward of Gondor.

I would say rather that Boromir favoured the pride and arrogance of the later kings of Numenor, while Faramir was a memory of the nobility of the noon-time of Numenor.

(and, you may ask, why do I place Pelendur among such disgraceful company? His actions as regard Arvedui speak clearly enough, IMHO. A man over-proud and un-deserving of his title, IMHO. The fact that it is in Pelendur's reign that the stewardship became hereditary is another clear sign, IMHO).


Having said all that, I truly pity Boromir. As many who try to act against evil, they end up performing an evil act in the name of righteousness. That's doens't make them evil, it just makes them act in an evil manner. :)

I always thought of Boromir as being one-dimensional in that he was a master of arms, and mighty in the ways of war, but he had no understanding when it came to things of a subtler nature (apparently this includes 'women'. :D)

[Grond]

Ty, are you seeking to make a living in disagreeing with me??? I'm really not evil or bad or ugly (well at least not too ugly) or is it just because I'm an idiot???

[Wildcat98]

I'm almost certain that he was refering to finishing the first book of Lord of the Rings (which was sad). Haven't finished the 3rd book as of yet, so I can't speak about whether that is a sad ending or not.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Grond
Ty, are you seeking to make a living in disagreeing with me??? I'm really not evil or bad or ugly (well at least not too ugly) or is it just because I'm an idiot???

Grond -- see my PM. :D

[Dr. Planarian]

Boromir was absolutely trustworthy within his own context of loyalties. He was the heir to the Stewardship of Gondor and this was the center of his being. His attempt to sieze the ring from Frodo on Amon Hen was in service to that loyalty, which was not to Gandalf, or the Council of Elrond, or Aragorn, but to GONDOR.

In this, however, Boromir unwittingly served the purposes of Eru and contributed a great part toward the downfall of Sauron. Had he not attacked Frodo, then Frodo and Sam would have been highly unlikely to set out together at that precise time and alone, without the rest of the Fellowship. Had a larger contingent set forth toward Mordor it is virtually certain that they would not have met up with and been influenced by Gollum, and therefore they would not attempted the path through Morgul Vale and Shelob's Lair. They would instead probably have attempted the Morannon, and would therefore have certainly failed in the quest.

Of course, one now wonders if servants of Morgoth have perhaps obtained or remade the ring and siezed power over all. Who would have thought that the 2000 Florida presidential ballot would be their instrument?

[Grond]

Ahhhh Dr. Planarian... now you go too far.

You would have us believe that Boromir's blatant attempt to "seize" the Ring was done out of good will. The inherent evil influence of the Ring had nothing to do with it. And, to boot, it served the higher good by ultimately allowing Frodo and Samwise to break from the company and depart for Mordor.

Well, I could use your argument all the way back to where Sauron created the Ring. Look how much unity, love and peace were brought into the world by the creation of the Ring. Elves and Man uniting to fight the common evil and all that. Heck, it was even the tool that allowed the restoration of the rightful King of Arnor and Gondor.

Even though I am sympathetic to Boromir and his situation (see my previous post in this thread) I can't give you a pass on that anymore that I can give you one on your Florida ballot comment (of which I will not delineate since this is a Tolkien forum and not a political forum.)

BTW, Dr. Welcome to our humble forum.

[Tar-Steve]

I absolutely believe that Boromir had the best of intentions in desiring the ring. I think he believed the others simply didn't fully understand THE situation (which happened to only be HIS situation) with Mordor and that he was trying to prevent them from making what he felt was an evil decision.

I believe the same of Saruman from the time he first wanted the ring, long afterwards, and possibly right up until he "would not come down".

This scenario for corruption, the "ends justifies the means" theme for temptation, is expressed multiple times in the story. (Sorry, no book quotes)

That Floriday comment was bit strong though.

[LadyEowyn]

Originally posted by Tar-Steve
I absolutely believe that Boromir had the best of intentions in desiring the ring. I think he believed the others simply didn't fully understand THE situation (which happened to only be HIS situation) with Mordor and that he was trying to prevent them from making what he felt was an evil decision.

I believe the same of Saruman from the time he first wanted the ring, long afterwards, and possibly right up until he "would not come down".

This scenario for corruption, the "ends justifies the means" theme for temptation, is expressed multiple times in the story. (Sorry, no book quotes)

That Floriday comment was bit strong though.

I disagree with your theory on Saruman. You make him sound like he had good intentions.

[LadyEowyn]

By the way Steve, I love your quote.

[Courtney]

saruman did have good intentions. Like many others, he felt that with the ring he could improve the lives of those in ME. Which would be true for a while until the ring gained full power.

[LadyEowyn]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see it that way. To me, he was evil, and so were his intentions. The only person he seemed to care about was himself. I don't think he really cared that much about what happend to everyone else.

[Tyaronumen]

Saruman BEGAN with good intentions... and as we know, the road to Hell is paved with intentions. :D

[LadyEowyn]

Originally posted by Tyaronumen
Saruman BEGAN with good intentions... and as we know, the road to Hell is paved with intentions. :D

That, I can agree with.:D

[gil-estel]

As the Great Prof himself wrote-nothing was evil in the beginning, i think not even sauron, not unless all reformers can be called evil,...

So u could say that he was good intentioned to BEGIN with, but nothing else-as treebeard says he was plotting to become a power

[Ancalagon]

saruman did have good intentions. Like many others, he felt that with the ring he could improve the lives of those in ME. Which would be true for a while until the ring gained full power.

Even as Sauron returned to Middle-Earth and grew strong in Dol Guldur, Saruman had turned his thoughts to securing the ring for himself. He despised Mithrandir for he had been first choice of Galadriel to lead the White Council. His heart had become dark, his council his own. Saruman began his study of the rings, their powers and ultimately the One.

His council, such as he gave to the council, was to let Sauron alone, leave him be, for he needed bought time to search for the ring. Saruman desired the ring for himself, he was certain he could wield it, not for the good of Middle-Earth, but to bend it to his will. He understood the power it had over the Elven Rings of Power, he could know the secrets of the Elven Lords, control them and rule them. He saw Sauron as a rival, rather than an enemy.

Long had Saruman delayed the council while his spies watched the movements of Saurons servants. Eventually he agreed to join the Council in driving Sauron from Mirkwood, only for the purpose of having the freedom to search the Anduin without fear of Saurons interference.

Saruman was corrupt, his desire was power, the Ring he believed would deliver this. Yet, it had moved from the river long before, eluding both himself and Sauron. For too long had Saruman delved into the history of the great rings, he had sought to understand Sauron in the hope of defeating and mastering him, yet, it may be said that he had searched too many avenues and became ensnared by Sauron through his use of the Palantir. All this while the ring had nestled in a dark cave under the mountains, guarded by a small tortured creature with eyes like pale lamps.

[Grond]

LadyEowyn, if you'll read more of the Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", you will read the following,

"...Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save Cirdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the Sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by te Lords of the West to contest the power of Sauron, if he should arise again, and to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds...."

More is said but the above will illustrate that all five of the Istari, being Maia, began with good heart and noble intentions being sent at the bidding of Manwe and Elbereth. Their goal, to aid Middle-earth in its fight against the evil power of Sauron and his Ring. It was Curunir's (Saruman's) research and study of the Rings of Power and his procurement of Orthanc and its palantir, that ultimately led to his betrayal.

Grond hopes he has swayed your opinion, but, if not, please state your reasons for disagreement.

Anc... where in hell did that post come from???

[LadyEowyn]

Again, thank you so much for telling me even more about the book I haven't read yet.:)

I understand all of what you have said. But, I wasn't saying that his intentions in the beggining were bad, I know he started out wanting to help everyone. I was talking more on the lines of after his study of the ring. I was under the impression that THAT'S what we were talking about. But, now I'm even more confused then I was.:confused: :(

[Walter]

concerning Boromir:
I totally agree with Tar-Steve when he says "I think he believed the others simply didn't fully understand THE situation (which happened to only be HIS situation) with Mordor and that he was trying to prevent them from making what he felt was an evil decision This sounds only too familiar, many people - especially those who have a pint of despotic bloods in their veins - tend to think along that line.

concerning Saruman:
Little is said about Saruman in the Sil, other than "he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old" and what gives away some of his character is "his pride and desire of mastery was grown great".
But I don't think he would have been chosen head of the white council if there had been any doubts about his "good intentions" To me it is not really clear when exactly he started to "walk on the dark paths", but I doubt he was "evil to the bone" from the beginning...