Debate - Aldarion-Erendis - Who's to blame? [Archive]

Beleg

04-03-2003, 05:26 PM

Aldarion also known as Anardil was known to be strong and vigorous in mind and body, golden-haired as his mother, ready to mirth and generous but prouder than his father and ever more bent on his own will

Indicating the fact that he always preferred his own thoughts upon anyone else’s and took it as an offence if someone tried to force some logic into him.

He had poor judgement in matter of hearts and as has been said before if someone tried to force something upon him he turned towards him with all his vengeance and a biased attitude doing as his heart and mind told him and ignoring the fact that he might be wrong.

"Cold hearts may not kindle others to give them warmth at their goings and comings," said Meneldur; and again he urged Aldarion to take thought of marriage, though he did not speak of Erendis. But Aldarion would have none of it, for he was ever and in every course the more opposed as those about him urged it; and treating Erendis now with greater coolness he determined to leave Númenor and further his designs in Vinyalondë

What was the sin of Erendis here? None, it seems except that his mind worked out that she seemed to be working in accordance with a plan conceived by his father to restrict him.

He doubted her from the start, was the more emotional of the two, doubted her love without any reason and refused to believe on the fears of Erendis that were correct but he was too proud to admit that. He was too proud to admit his own mistake, was filled with the sentiments of self pity and saw everyone in the same light as his without any regard of others feelings and sentiments, regardless of the fact that others might have different priorities then his and refusing to negotiate a compromise despite Erendis attempts at reconciliation.

He was swift to anger, concluded too early, and without careful thinking and so made decisions that were ill and not correct.

Then Aldarion's heart was hardened, for these words recalled his speech with Erendis as they passed through Emerië; and he thought (but untruly) that she had consulted with his father. It was ever his mood, if he thought that others combined to urge him on some path of their choosing, to turn away from it. "Smiths may smithy, and horsemen ride, and miners delve, when they are betrothed," said he.

Erendis always tried to be there for him. She even stifled her own pride and performed tasks that she despised greatly just because of the love of Aldarion.

The mariners thought it an ill thing that the Captain should depart thus; but when all was made ready and men prepared to weigh anchor Erendis came there, little though she loved the noise and bustle of the great harbour and the crying of the gulls

and at another occasion,

At length he sought to persuade Erendis to sail with him on a voyage about the Island in the ship Eämbar; for one hundred years had now passed since Aldarion founded the Guild of Venturers, and feasts were to be held in all the havens of Númenor. To this Erendis consented, concealing her distaste and fear; and they departed from Rómenna and came to Andúnië in the west of the Isle

Erendis tried everything a woman can do to stay with Aldarion. She went with him to ships and masking her own fear and hate pretended to be merry so that her husband may become happy.

Aldarion on the other hand neglected his duties and was always reluctant in pursuing the duties that the ancient law of Eldar bore on him.

Even after his betrothal, he however was troubled but didn’t resolve towards satisfying the problem in choosing between Erendis and Sea. Morally since he had made his decision and had chosen her to be his future wife and his first responsibility, he shouldn’t have let any doubt stand in his mind. He shouldn’t have had made any decision if there was any doubt in his mind because it would ruin the life of two people which could have had grave consequences which they did have.
There she welcomed him gladly, and he was merry; but he said nothing touching their wedding, though all had thought that this was a part of his errand to the Westlands.

Even after he was betrothed to Erendis, a betrothal in which he participated on his own will and through his passionate comments had led Erendis to accept it for she had been doubtful about his total sincerity for her and knew in her heart that Sea was Aldarion’s first love but she loved Aldarion so much that she was even ready to accept the divided attention of Aldarion. Everyone including his own father knew about the tussle between the love for Erendis and longing for the sea in Aldarion’s heart.

"She held back well nigh twelve years, when I was eager," said Aldarion. "I do not ask for a third of such a time."
"She was not then betrothed," said Meneldur. ''But neither of you are now free. And if she held back, I doubt not that it was in fear of what now seems likely to befall, if you cannot master yourself. In some way you must have stilled that fear; and though you may have spoken no plain word, yet you are beholden, as I judge."

He was passionate, quick to make promises but failing to keep them.
"Often of late I have thought that you preferred it so," said Aldarion. "But let us not be wroth, even if we are not of like mind. Look in your mirror, Erendis. You are beautiful, and no shadow of age is there yet.You have time to spare to my deep .need. Two years! Two years is all that I ask!"But Erendis answered: "Say rather: 'Two years I will take, whether you will or no.' Take two years, then! But no more. A King's son of the blood of Eärendil should also be a man of his word."

When the second year after Aldarion's sailing came in, by the King's wish Erendis ordered the house in Armenelos to be; arrayed and made ready; but she herself made no preparation for return. To the King she sent answer saying: "I will come if you command me, atar aranya. But have a duty now to hasten? Will it not be time enough when his sail is seen in the East?" and to herself she said: "Will the King have me wait upon the quays like a sailor's lass? Would that I were, but I am so no longer. I have played that part to the full." But that year passed, and no sail was seen; and the next year came, and waned to autumn.

Alas he was so bent upon his will that when he encountered Erendis and beheld her coldness, his hasty manner came into play and he left her without thinking that he had been the one to break the promise and not realizing that Erendis still loved him and all she wanted was an apology from him and Aldarion thus lost a great chance of reconiling with Erendis. He had hurt her, not only (Implied) accusing of as the offencer but all ignoring her before her daughter, someone she loved greatly.

Then she wept, from grief, but still more from anger. She had looked for some penitence, that she might extend after rebuke pardon if prayed for; but he had dealt with her as if she were the offender, and ignored her before her daughter.

Aldarion screwed his relationship with Erendis through his own folly. When the time was ripe he didn’t clear the doubts that were in his mind about his relationship with Erendis, the state of his own heart and the tussle between Erendis’s love and Sea Longing. His pride was too great for his to see the truth.

Tolkien through Meneldur summed up Aldarion’s folly in the following words.

Thus far Meneldur had sat in patience with downcast eyes and made no sign. But now he sighed, and looked up. "Aldarion, my son," he said sadly, "the King would say that you also show cold insolence and contempt of your kin, and yourself condemn others unheard; but your father who loves you and grieves for you will remit that. The fault is not mine only that I have not ere now understood your purposes. However, as for what you have suffered (of which, alas! too many now speak): I am guiltless. Erendis I have loved, and since our hearts lean the same way I have thought that she had much to endure that was hard. Your purposes are now become clear to me; though if you are in mood to hear aught but praise I would say that at first your own pleasure also led you. And it may be that things would have been otherwise if you had spoken more openly long ago."

However, Aldarion’s habit of speaking angrily and without thinking made the matters worse. Too great was his trust on his abilities to let him comprehend the truth. He saw and observed Erendis’s love; advanced towards it and with Passionate words won her heart completely, betrothed her yet unclear in his mind still did not try to resolve his problems instead violated not only the customs of Eldar but also the heart of Erendis. When the time was ripe to strengthen their relationship he pushed her away, made serious mistake while interpreting or trying to interpret Erendis’s thoughts. He was obstinate often to his own folly, judged too quickly and not wisely and through his actions pushed Lady Erendis away from himself all the while accusing her of straying away from him. Aldarion thus was to be blamed for the tragedy, for the separation of two yearning hearts, a separation that gave root to many evils and indecencies later in the events.

Lhunithiliel

04-12-2003, 08:22 PM

To start with I’d prefer to give a brief overview of the time in which Aldarion was born and brought up, in order to better introduce his character and those features that formed his individuality as being a true representative of his race – the proud Numenoreans and what is even more important – a proud heir of the lines of Noldor and Men.

Aldarion is one of the closest heirs of Earendil - himself being a great mariner, and hence – of Elros – the first King of Numenor. Tar-Aldarion becomes later the V-th king of Numenor.

He therefore was born and grew up in times when the Numenoreans were still brought up in the ancient traditions of their proud race and with the lore and in close friendship of the Eldar.
And those were also times when the Numenorean people was still at the dawn of the development of their civilization. They were eager to explore, they were thirsty for knowledge and they felt strong enough to undertake bold endeavours.
They were guarded by the Gods, taught by the Eldar and they lived with the sense of a well deserved pride for the exceptional deeds of their ancestors.

From HoMe – “Drowning Anadune”

“In the wearing of time the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; For the Numenor eans were exceedingly tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of men in Middle-earth. Above all arts they nourished ship building and sea-craft, and became mariners whose like shall never be again, since the world has been diminished. They ranged from Eressea in the West to the shores of Middle-earth, and came even into the inner seas; and they sailed about the North and the South and glimpsed from their high prows the Gates of Morning in the East”

From UT “Description of the Island of Numenor”:

When six hundred years had passed from the beginning of the Second Age Vëantur, Captain of King's Ships under Tar-Elendil, first achieved the voyage to Middle-earth. He brought his ship Entulessë (which signifies "Return") into Mithlond on the spring winds blowing from the west; and he returned in the autumn of the following year. Thereafter seafaring became the chief enterprise for daring and hardihood among the men of Númenor; and Aldarion son of Meneldur, whose wife was Vëantur's daughter, formed the Guild of Venturers, in which were joined all the tried mariners of Númenor;

No wonder than that Aldarion – the very King’s own son grew up also as the true son of his time – proud, bold, hard at character, strong-willed and of course - passionately enamoured with the sea!

Thus Aldarion’s passion towards sea-faring and ship-building can be well enough considered as a natural characteristic feature of his lineage and proud he had all the right to be with this inherited character!

He did great things! He did not make voyages just for pleasure. He founded the Guild of Mariners, he explored more and more of the lands of their ancient homeland, he dealt with Elves like Cirdan and Gil-Galad, “he put to use the knowledge he had gained of Círdan concerning the making of ships, devising much anew of his own thought, and he began also to set men to the improvement of the havens and the quays, for he was ever eager to build greater vessels” he built havens and settlings on the shores of Middle-earth… Aldarion was a true Numenorean and a proud heir of his ancestors!

A King’s heir of great lineage, a proud man, a man devoted to matters of utmost importance for the whole nation – THIS was Aldarion!

It is THIS Aldarion that Erendis fell in love with!

Be he other than that, be he not so attractive in the light of his kingly pride, be he not the bold venturer and the wise and skillful beyond his years young man, she would have not loved him so deeply.

“Erendis looked upon Aldarion as he rode by, and for his beauty and splendour of bearing she had eyes for little else.”

Why then love him for what he was and then try to change him?!
It is Erendis’s greatest mistake to try to do such a thing!

Therefore, it is not Aldarion who betrayed her feelings! He was what he was. She fell in love with him ….or rather say in love with his splendour and pride … But had she ever thought of why and how Aldarion had become a man of such nature? Hadn’t she known the men of the Royal House? Hadn’t she learned about him enough – of all that he was and all that he loved and occupied with? YES! She knew all of this! And knew it well!
Then what reason would’ve she had to want him give up what he was and what he did and become somebody else?!

Her mother said it well and said it right:
"All or nothing, Erendis," said Núneth. "So you were as a child. But you love this man, and he is a great man, not to speak of his rank; and you will not cast out your love from your heart so easily, nor without great hurt to yourself. A woman must share her husband's love with his work and the fire of his spirit, or make him a thing not loveable. But I doubt that you will ever understand such counsel.”
Did she ever listen to that counsel? No!
Did Aldarion ever give her any reason to believe that he would give up his great plans and endeavours? No! He obeyed not even to the will of his own father – the very King of Numenor!

Yet Erendis hoped she’d change him! For what reason? For love?
Whom did she love then?! Aldarion? No! She was in love with her own dream and failed to see and love the real man!

to be continued

Lhunithiliel

04-12-2003, 08:26 PM

Let’s now analyse love matters – love as understood by Aldarion and by Erendis.

What was love in Erendis’s understanding? Have Aldarion always close to her side! Make him accept the life of the farmers of her native region! Tear HIM! – the great sea-farer and ship-builder, the Great Captain of the Mariners of Numenor, away from the sea and take him to the pastures and the quiet of the inner lands! Make a quiet and domestic husband out of a wild and longing for adventures soul of a man…!

What a complete MISunderstanding of loving a man! Especially a man like Aldarion!
This is in fact a pure example of a feeling that could be perhaps called love but in fact strongly mistaken with egoism!

It is Erendis who had never understood what true love is! Because to love someone is to give him freedom and never put his soul in the bonds of jealousy and never make him choose between his own will and feelings. THIS Erendis had unfortunately NEVER got to learn!.

On the other hand, Aldarion made various attempts to please her egoistic love and desires. He tried to be it her way. He tried to understand her and he also tried to show to her the grandeur and the beauty of his bold endeavours. He respected her as a true Queen – a Queen of Numenor and the Queen of his heart. Several times he quit sea-faring for her! Several times he undertook projects and deeds such as to please her likings and preferences.

But what is more important, he never showed false feelings! He admired her beauty and her grace, her tenderness (at least while she still had one for him!), but he always kept being the man of his true nature – never too emotional, ever occupied with serious and grand projects, fully dedicated to his ambitions…. And he always admitted his love for the sea to be the love of his life!
He was HONEST with her!
But it was never enough for Erendis!
Erendis wanted all or nothing!

The great tragedy thus came precisely from the fact that Erendis was fully and unfortunately wrong about HER OWN feelings – confusing love for egoism and never been able to understand the difference. This is also strongly traced later in her attitude towards her own daughter as well!

Erendis loved a dream – the dream of Aldarion! Unfortunately, she never succeeded in getting to love the real Aldarion - the proud heir of the House of Elros, the man of great vision, the bold and freedom-loving soul…

Instead, she tried to change him. Change to what? To whom? What would’ve become of Tar-Aldarion had he chosen the peaceful and quiet life instead of the storms of the seas and of the dangers of his Middle-earth endeavours?
Surely – it wouldn’t have been the same Aldarion any more!
Whom would’ve Erendis love then?!

Aldarion himself understood it well:
She does not love me, or aught else. She loves herself with Númenor as a setting, and myself as a tame hound, to drowse by the hearth until she has a mind to walk in her own fields
He could have never accepted such a fate! He would rather renounce his kingship, his powers in Numenor, his rights and his life guarded by the Gods– for the freedom of being true to himself!
“A King should consider how much a man will endure, though he be a subject, even his son. If you would shackle me to this Island, then you choose your chain ill. I have now neither wife, nor love of this land, left. I will go from this misenchanted isle of daydreams where women in their insolence would have men cringe. I will use my days to some purpose, elsewhere, where I am not scorned, more welcome in honour. Another Heir you may find more fit for a house-servant. Of my inheritance I demand only this: the ship Hirilondë and as many men as it will hold. My daughter I would take also, were she colder; but I will commend her to my mother. Unless you dote upon sheep, you will not hinder this, and will not suffer the child to be stunted, reared among mute women in cold insolence and contempt of her kin. She is of the Line of Elros, and no other descendant will you have through your son. I have done. I will go now about business more profitable."

So, to finalize it (for now! ;)) I’d say – the tragedy of the relationship between Aldarion and Erendis was the grievous result of the fierce clash between the egoistic love of a woman and the free mind of a man.

And egoism can be only ruinous!

Beleg

04-13-2003, 05:54 PM

Just look at Aldarion’s behaviour and his thinking, his mind frame from the time he met Aldarion to their last meeting.

The first time he saw her was when he came to his mother to bid her farewell before advancing to a sea-voyage

[/QUOTE] Mariner's Wife.
But coming to bid farewell to his mother he saw Erendis amid the Queen's company; and looking on her beauty he divined the strength that lay concealed in her. Then Almarian said to him: "Must you depart again, Aldarion, my son? Is there nothing that will hold you in the fairest of all mortal lands?"
"Not yet," he answered; "but there are fairer things in Armenelos than a man could find elsewhere, even in the lands of the Eldar. But mariners are men of two minds, at war with themselves; and the desire of the Sea still holds me."

In Tolkien’s typical style this might be deemed as modern “flirting” or it’s equitant. However, it is certain that Aldarion was impressed by Erendis’ beauty.

After returning from his journey’s Aldarion continues meeting Erendis.

And Aldarion meets her while she is placing the Bough on his ship.
And here is his reaction,

[QUOTE]The mariners thought it an ill thing that the Captain should depart thus; but when all was made ready and men prepared to weigh anchor Erendis came there, little though she loved the noise and bustle of the great harbour and the crying of the gulls. Aldarion greeted her with amazement and joy; and she said: "I have brought you the Bough of Return, lord: from the Queen." "From the Queen?" said Aldarion, in a changed manner. "Yes, lord," said she; "but I asked for her leave to do so. Others beside your own kin will rejoice at your return, as soon as may be."
At that time Aldarion first looked on Erendis with love; and he stood long in the stern looking back as the Palarran passed out to sea.

Two facts can be gleaned from the above paragraph.

1) Erendis came only to the ship due to her love for Aldarion.
2) The first occasion on which Aldarion really shows any other-then-platonic love sentiments for Erendis.

He brings gifts from Middle-Earth and the most Richest and Beautiful one he passes onto Erendis.

he brought gifts for the Queen and the ladies of her house, but the richest gift he brought for Erendis, and that was a diamond.

***

His father rebukes him for in Numenorean marriage traditions such a gift is meant to be a Bethrotal gift. There is a talk between his father and himself.

and Meneldur rebuked him, saying that such a gift was unbecoming in the King's Heir unless it were a betrothal gift, and he demanded that Aldarion declare his mind.
"In gratitude I brought it," said he, "for a warm heart amid the coldness of others."
"Cold hearts may not kindle others to give them warmth at their goings and comings,"

Aldarion admits his possible liking for Erendis. He feels she has a WARM heart.
This can be interpreted in two possible ways.
Either that Aldarion finds possible love in his heart for Erendis or that because Erendis is the only one that was showing him any affection so his gratitude turns towards only him.

However, from this talk Aldarion establishes a (Wrong!) belief that Meneldur is conspirating with Erendis for his marriage, so due to his self based assumption lacking with any solid fact he starts treating her coldly.

Notice, he shows affection for her one minute and the other minute he is infuriated with her.

The king now publically rebukes Aldarion and sets a ban upon every woman to set the bough upon Aldarion’s ship.
Yet, Yet Erendis taking the risk of facing Kings wrath still sets the bough along with her blessing, even though she hates, more then anyone else, Aldarion’s sea Voyages.

The Queen did not dare incur Meneldur's wrath; but at night a cloaked woman came to the haven bearing a bough, and she gave it into the hands of Aldarion, saying: "This comes from the Lady of the Westlands" (for so they called Erendis), and went away in the dark.

Why did she do that? Because she loved Aldarion and would not want to see Aldarion un-happy and would try everything she could to cement his safety. Note she brings The bough to the much hated Sea-Shore for the love of Aldarion. Isn’t this enough to negate the claim that she didn’t participate in any of his lovers activities?

***

Ten Years pass,

When ten years were gone since his sailing Erendis at last despaired, and believing that Aldarion had met with disaster, or else that he had determined to dwell in Middle-earth, and also in order to escape the importuning of suitors, she asked the Queen's leave, and departing from Armenelos she returned to her own kindred in the Westlands.

Points to note:

1. She leaves Armenelos to escape the suitors, meaning that she is still in love and is faithful in her heart to Aldarion.

2. After four years Aldarion returns,

Aldarion was grieved to find Erendis gone from Armenelos, W he was too proud to seek her; and indeed he could not well do so save to ask for her in marriage,

Note, this means that he feels something in his heart for Erendis but is not quite sure what it is. His pride is too high for him to go looking for Erendis for he thinks that everything should be made ready for him, like a cooked apple-pie, he does not bother to reach Erendis. Why? Because of his pride. Now I wonder what wrong has Erendis done here? Aldarion had gone away for well nigh 14 years without any news and if he thinks that Erendis would be waiting for him at the quay, jumping up and down with ecstasy then he seriously has something wrong.
So his pride doesn’t allow to seek a lesser woman, because she wasn’t there to greet him.

***
Next meeting is in the blessed forests of Westlands,

Riding one day in the forests of the Westlands he saw a woman, whose dark hair flowed in the wind, and about her was a green cloak clasped at the throat with a bright jewel; and he took her for one of the Eldar, who came at times to those parts of the Island. But she approached, and he knew her for Erendis, and saw that the jewel was the one that he had given her; then suddenly he knew in himself the love that he bore her, and he felt the emptiness of his days. Erendis seeing him turned pale and would ride off, but he was too quick, and he said: "Too well have I deserved that you should flee from me, who have fled so often and so far! But forgive me, and stay now."

He realizes his love for her and through sweet words succeeds in removing any doubt from her mind which might have been formed due to his hastiness and behaviour to her before.

They rode then together to the house of Beregar her father, and there Aldarion made plain his desire for betrothal to Erendis; but now Erendis was reluctant, though according to custom and the life of her people it was now full time for her marriage. Her love for him was not lessened, nor did she retreat out of guile; but she feared now in her heart that in the war between herself and the Sea for the keeping of Aldarion she would not conquer.

Aldarion had already proved how hasty he was in matters concerning sea and how absolutely he loved his sea voyages love which bordered on the fringe of adoration and minacity. So she fears that if for once there is any clash in priorities concerning herself and the sea, Aldarion would neglect her-his soon to be first responsibility-and would go for the sea for it was his first love and in his hastiness he would choose the journey to the sea, not being aware of the emotional blow it might cause to Erendis. In his hastiness he wont realize that his primary duty is to Erendis for on the surface the voyage to see might seem of immediate importance but he wont be aware of the fact that his constant sojourns in the sea would be eating away Erendis’ soul and creating a barrier between them for because of his lack of powers of choosing and his over-boarding enthusiasm and adoration for the sea he would not be able to take the moderate path.
Her love for him is NOT lessened.

But Aldarion wooed Erendis in earnest, and wherever she went he would go;and he found more contentment in those days than in any others of his life, though he did not know it until he looked back long after when old age was upon him.

What Aldarion fails to recognise is that who his first priority is. From this sentence it is clear that he truly loved Erendis but it was his over-boarding pride and disability to take the moderate path that caused the rift between Erendis and Aldarion.

Erendis for the love of Aldarion goes to his ship also.

Okay Erendis was proud. But she was able to listen to her heart.

This counsel did not indeed move the mind of Erendis; nevertheless she found that her heart was not under her will, and her days were empty: more empty than in the years when Aldarion had been gone. For he still abode in Númenor, and yet the days passed, and he did not come again into the west.
Now Almarian the Queen, being acquainted by Núneth with what had passed, and fearing lest Aldarion should seek solace in voyaging again (for he had been long ashore), sent word to Erendis asking that she return to Armenelos; and Erendis being urged by Núneth and by her own heart did as she was bid

Erendis is aware of the love she has for Aldarion and since the last time their enstrangement was her fault tries to amend her mistake by stifling her pride and going back to Armenelos…for Aldarion.

****

(Continued in the next Post.)

Beleg

04-13-2003, 05:55 PM

They are betrothed on Meneltarma. Aldarion wins her heart with sweet words

Three years pass, according to the laws of Eldar they should marry now.

Now the year came in, in which all looked for the marriage of the King's Heir; for it was not the custom that betrothal should last much longer than three years There she welcomed him gladly, and he was merry; but he said nothing touching their wedding, though all had thought that this was a part of his errand to the Westlands. As the days passed Erendis marked that he now often fell silent in company when others were gay; and if she looked towards him suddenly she saw his eyes upon her. Then her heart was shaken; for the blue eyes of Aldarion seemed to her now grey and cold, yet she perceived as it were a hunger in his gaze. That look she had seen too often before, and feared what it boded; but she said nothing. At that Núneth, who marked all that passed, was glad; for "words may open wounds," as she said. Ere long Aldarion and Erendis rode away, returning to Armenelos, and as they drew further from the sea he grew merrier again. Still he said nothing to her of his trouble; for indeed he was at war within himself, and irresolute.

The paragraph clearly indicates Aldarion’s failure at negotiating with his feelings, it indicates his failure at fulfilling the reason he went to Westlands. Aldarion cannot decide, he cannot choose between Erendis and the Sea which shows his absurdity since from the time he choose Erendis as his betrothed partner he had made his choice clear and had chosen Erendis and according to the custom should have informed Erendis’ about his will to marry her but couldn’t decide. He didn’t even discuss his problem with Erendis, fearing lest his so-called pride might be hurt for he believed that he could think everything and the best for himself.

So war is wagged in his heart and he conveniently forgets performing his responsibility and succeeding in arousing doubts among Erendis’ heart but not wedding her.

So one moment in Extreme love with her at Meneltarma, the other moment confused with himself, and then suddenly flaring up against Erendis. The man Aldarion seems to have no solid will at all in matters of heart.

***

His father talks with him and tries to knock some sense into him,

"My son," said Tar-Meneldur, "when will you give me the daughter that I have so long desired? More than three years have now passed, and that is long enough. I marvel that you could endure so long a delay."
Then Aldarion was silent, but at length he said: "It has come upon me again, Atarinya. Eighteen years is a long fast. I can scarce lie still in a bed, or hold myself upon a horse, and the hard ground of stone wounds my feet."
Then Meneldur was grieved, and pitied his son; and he said: "Alas! But you are betrothed. And by the laws of Númenor and the right ways of the Eldar and Edain a man shall not have two wives. You cannot wed the Sea, for you are affianced to Erendis."
Then Aldarion's heart was hardened, for these words recalled his speech with Erendis as they passed through Emerië; and he thought (but untruly) that she had consulted with his father. It was ever his mood, if he thought that others combined to urge him on some path of their choosing, to turn away from it. "Smiths may smithy, and horsemen ride, and miners delve, when they are betrothed," said he. "Therefore why may not mariners sail?"
"If smiths remained five years at the anvil few would be smiths' wives," said the King. "And mariners' wives are few, and they endure what they must, for such is their livelihood and their necessity. The King's Heir is not a mariner by trade, nor is he under necessity."

The paragraph is self-explanatory and explains the weird workings of Aldarion’s mind. One moment he greatly wants someone and the other moment he is denying the need of her.

She held back well nigh twelve years, when I was eager," said Aldarion. "I do not ask for a third of such a time."
"She was not then betrothed," said Meneldur. ''But neither of you are now free. And if she held back, I doubt not that it was in fear of what now seems likely to befall, if you cannot master yourself. In some way you must have stilled that fear; and though you may have spoken no plain word, yet you are beholden, as I judge."

Meneldur perceives what has befallen his son and in a way tries to guide him towards the right way. The problem is that Aldarion CANNOT master himself and thus creates undue problems for both himself and others which are further worsened by his hasty temper and short temperament.

Then Aldarion said in anger: "It were better to speak with my betrothed myself, and not hold parley by proxy

So strong is his self-esteem and pride that when someone tries to knock some sense in the thick skull of his, he refuses to listen and instead throws absurd accusations at others.

***

Aldarion makes ready for another Journey after speaking with Erendis and due to his love Erendis herself (again) goes to the ship to deliver the bough.

Now since Aldarion knew that he needs to marry Erendis and that this voyage was made only to pacify his heart, and that he should return as soon as possible to the mainland to fulfil his obligation but what he does is that he stays away for Six whole years, leaving Erendis hanging upon threads of hope, making every second of her life like hell.

Six years and more passed away before Aldarion returned to Númenor. He found even Almarian the Queen colder in welcome, and the Venturers were fallen out of esteem; for men, thought that he had treated Erendis ill.

However, Erendis forgives Aldarion and agrees to marry him, because her love for him was forcing her and that she knew what was good for her and her heart and she knew the decision she needed to make.

*****
(Continued in the Next Post.)

Beleg

04-13-2003, 05:57 PM

They are wedded and Erendis conceives after two years, gracing the world with the presence of a baby daughter.

Now she was jealous of the sea, but she hid it and talked about it to him lest fearing that he might get dismayed with her because she wanted to keep him away from his obsession.
In fact, she behaved like a perfect wife, sharing her troubles with him and often helping her husband.

For in secret she still feared the Sea and its power upon his heart; and though she strove to hide it, and would talk with him of his old ventures and of his hopes and designs, she watched jealously if he went to his house-ship or was much with the Venturers

So it was that ere long he turned again from forestry to the building of ships, and a vision came to him of a mighty vessel like a castle with tall masts and great sails like clouds, bearing men and stores enough for a town. Then in the yards of Rómenna the saws and hammers were busy, while among many lesser craft a great ribbed hull took shape; at which men wondered. Turuphanto, the Wooden Whale, they called it, but that was not its name. Erendis learned of these things, though Aldarion had not spoken to her of them, and she was unquiet.[QUOTE]

So Erendis learned of the outings of his husband through a third source, meaning that his husband hadn’t bothered to inform her about his doings. Not a fine example of absolute trust. For if Aldarion thought that it would help matters if she was left unknown till the last possible minute then he was totally wrong, for it would have been better telling her beforehand so that she would have no qualms about Aldarion’s love undisputed love for her and that her heart might be pacified because Aldarion had told her first which meant that he thought her important enough to share the knowledge of his workings with her.

She is loathe to grant leave to him for she has a hunch that once Aldarion gets in the sea he would forget everything concerning land and the promises he might have made with her and he would find more solace in exploring the Middle Earth rather then returning to Númenor.

Aldarion promises that he wont be away for more then two years and for the love of Aldarion she grants him the permission to go.

[QUOTE]Often of late I have thought that you preferred it so," said Aldarion. "But let us not be wroth, even if we are not of like mind. Look in your mirror, Erendis. You are beautiful, and no shadow of age is there yet. You have time to spare to my deep .need. Two years! Two years is all that I ask!"
But Erendis answered: "Say rather: 'Two years I will take, whether you will or no.' Take two years, then! But no more. A King's son of the blood of Eärendil should also be a man of his word."

Yet, Yet, the inevitable happened. Two years passed, no sail was seen in East.

But that year passed, and no sail was seen; and the next year came, and waned to autumn. Then Erendis grew hard and silent. She ordered that the house in Armenelos be shut, and she went never more than a few hours' journey from her house in Emerië.

Aldarion shows his high-handedness and amazing ability of not understanding any good counsel given to him while talking with his father,

You shall do so," said Meneldur. "Indeed I expect no less. But there are other matters which I judge more urgent. 'Let a King first rule well his own house ere he correct others,' it is said. It is true of all men. I will now give you counsel, son of Meneldur. You have also a life of your own. Half of yourself you have ever neglected. To you I say now: Go home!"
Aldarion stood suddenly still, and his face was stern. "If you know, tell me," he said. "Where is my home?"
"Where your wife is," said Meneldur. "You have broken your word to her, whether by necessity or no. She dwells now in Emerië, in her own house, far from the sea. Thither you must go at once."

And so stupid was Aldarion’s so-called pride that when he went to Emerie and found the welcome cold, he never even tried to redress the situation. He never tried to win Erendis’ heart again, never tried to sought her, to calm her, to try to tell her the reasons behind his going, and to ask her to forgive him, instead showing amazing high-handedness, to satisfy his conscious and his boisterous ego he accused Erendis when at the beginning he was at fault.

Erendis alone at a window watched him riding down the hill, and she marked that he rode towards Hyarastorni and not towards Armenelos. Then she wept, from grief, but still more from anger. She had looked for some penitence that she might extend after rebuke pardon if prayed for; but he had dealt with her as if she were the offender, and ignored her before her daughter.

This was amazing dorkiness from Aldarion, Erendis only wanted to be consoled, she was shaken, emotionally shaken, no wonder she would have spent the last three years on the threshold of emotional torture. Moreover, he had ignored her before her daughter, hurting her pride to no end. He had been spiteful when she had thought him to be humble, where he should have been humble, instead he had ignored her.
He had, through his behaviour emotionally shattered her to pieces.
And from thereon things were never the same again.

And thus due to his piquant behaviour, lack of understanding, lack of decision-making, lack of understanding his own heart, and foremost because of his Pride, he had succeeded in estranging his sweetheart from himself which ended in Disaster not only for himself and Erendis but all for their daughter Tar-Anclime and forthcoming generations.

PRIDE IS RUINOUS.

*****

(The End) For Now, offcourse!

Lhunithiliel

04-14-2003, 02:59 PM

The coming post is set in 8 points, which makes it long, given in several bits and I apologize for making you read so much! ;) :D

However, here it comes:

1/ The period before the betrothal

At this time what we observe in the tale is the story of a most normal courting between a man and a woman: interest, seeking of the other’s affection, looking for the other’s heart. It’s only so human!

Yet, the approach from both parts is different. What Aldarion looked for was the warmth and the tender love of a woman. Yet he was honest to himself and to his intentions towards Erendis both, in his mind and therefore in his deeds.

Then Almarian said to him: "Must you depart again, Aldarion, my son? Is there nothing that will hold you in the fairest of all mortal lands?"
"Not yet," he answered; "but there are fairer things in Armenelos than a man could find elsewhere, even in the lands of the Eldar. But mariners are men of two minds, at war with themselves; and the desire of the Sea still holds me."

He had not yet felt in his heart and mind the affection (for we still can’t speak of love at this stage!) for that woman to be greater and stronger than his love for the sea.
However, as I’ve already clarified it, Aldarion did not make those sea-voyages for some vain pleasure but for high purposes!
He admitted it to himself and no one therefore could accuse him of deceiving Erendis by some false intentions. Aldarion knew his heart and mind and even though he was highly impressed by Erendis’s beauty and her open interest towards him, he was still not yet ready to return with the same.
Honesty! No fault here!

What Erendis, however, looked for, was to win the heart of her dream-man – Aldarion. Was she honest in believing that she would win over the passions that moved that man? Perhaps. At that time they both still did not well knew each other.

Therefore, I’d say that this stage of their relations still did not affect what came to pass later.

2. The betrothal

This is the first time we openly witness Erendis’s hesitations about the final outcome of her relationship with Aldarion.
Hesitations? Now?! After she had let him believe she’d give herself to him and he had finally found strength to overcome his hesitations, after he had completely believed in her pure love for him!!!
Wasn’t it too late for that?! It was!
Whose fault it was?
I cannot find fault in Aldarion.
Erendis was a bright woman. From the very beginning of their relationship she had concealed her fears that she might perhaps never win to the Sea in the battle for Aldarion’s heart. Right from the beginning Erendis knew who Aldarion was and what he was expected to do and become. She had witnessed all his endeavours and she had learned about his ambitions… He had never kept them in secret!
But had she admitted the truth? Had she admitted her own fears? No!
She preferred to cling to a dream instead of facing reality.
What a fatal mistake!
Had she done this earlier, she either might have given up loving him (painful as it could have been!) or she might have reconciled with reality and love Aldarion as he was – accepting him the way he was – together with all his ambitions and preferences and priorities.
Erendis, however, did not do that!

tbc

Lhunithiliel

04-14-2003, 03:02 PM

3. Men-women position in Numenorean society

In Tolkien’s world we find a reflection of the status quo in the men-women relations and position in the society of the medieval and even later times of the real world.
In those times, history tells that women were destined to occupy with mainly domestic matters, while men had a much more active life and much more influence and importance in the society.

On the other hand, analyzing the invented world of the Numenorean kingdom, we doubtlessly find the strong trace of the traditions in these matters as inherited and taught to Men by the Eldar.

As disciples of the Eldar, the Numenoreans as a new-found brand of the race of Men, followed steadily lots of the elvish traditions and ways concerning the structure of he society and the position in it of females and males.

From the Laws and Customs of the Eldar:

“…..the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the
Eldar are equal - unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that
for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown
in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is
otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. “

……the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need.”
Analysing both – the real world and the mirrored invented world in Tolkien’s writings, comes the obvious conclusion that in the Numenorean society, a society of humans, not of Elves however, men normally occupied with matters far more active and often perilous which had gained them a much more important and influential position in the society. While women, on the other hand, were supposed to be just loving wives and caring and tender partners.
What is then Aldarion’s “sin” for being a man of the Numenorean society?! A man moreover of the Royal House, a man who had gained an utmost respect and high recognition and importance in this society?!
None! As I’ve said it already, he was the son of his lineage, his time, his world!

Now, I strongly doubt that Erendis was not aware of this status quo. But she either did not want to admit it, or she hoped she could change it. In both cases she was wrong!
Therefore, by deceiving herself with false “dreams”, she deceived Aldarion’s hopes as well!
What he was looking for, was a warm and loving heart of a woman – a woman of their time and of their society. Yes, he admired her for her beauty, for her tenderness, for all those feminine features that he could not find in the rough world of men that he lived in.
So, at first, while Erendis was showing to him only this part of her character, she won his affection and he believed he could be loved and love himself.
But she deceived him by not revealing all of her mind, concealing from him her secret hopes that once they marry she’d tame him. Had Aldarion suspected it even for a moment, he’d never let himself believe her!

So, I find Erendis’s fault even at this early stage of their relationship for being unable to adapt to the “norms” of the society they were both living in and for not accepting that society’s “rules” and “codes” of relations and behaviour.
I have strong reasons to believe that being the way as she was, she would’ve made the same mistakes towards any man, be he Aldarion or someone else.
Pitty! She should’ve lived in contemporary times for she had the mind for it!
Unfortunately she did not!
So, I find her fault for “marring” the future marriage at not being able to understand OR at not wanting to accept reality as it was!

4. Priorities

Beleg:So she fears that if for once there is any clash in priorities concerning herself and the sea, Aldarion would neglect her-his soon to be first responsibility-and would go for the sea for it was his first love and in his hastiness he would choose the journey to the sea, not being aware of the emotional blow it might cause to Erendis. In his hastiness he wont realize that his primary duty is to Erendis

Aldarion’s primary duties could never be his feelings!
Let’s not forget who he was and what his goals were!
I am not tired of repeating that he was a man of his time, a proud heir of the Kings’ line of Elros, a man brought up to be guided in his activities not by emotions but by high causes! (see p.3 – “society” )
No fault I find in this for the later tragedy in emotional matters!

tbc

Lhunithiliel

04-14-2003, 03:04 PM

5. Erendis – the wife (only partial analyses!)

You say Erendis behaved like a perfect wife and yes, in those times, when Aldarion had settled down away from his sea-related matters, when he had given up his ambitions for the love he had for his new family, when he – the Great Captain of the Numenorean Mariners, had locked away his sea-longings and desires for new endeavours, then Erendis was happy! Alas! Deceit again we witness even in this quiet peaceful picture of a family life! For Erendis was deceiving again – deceiving herself and deceiving Aldarion!
Because in fact, she only pretended to be happy and only pretended to believe she had won the battle with the sea!
Perhaps, however, she could have held that “victory”. But she made a fatal mistake! Again!
Erendis often spoke to Aldarion about his former voyages and about his former activities….
How cruel!
I can understand her! She wanted to show “interested” in her husband’s affairs. Yet, on the other hand, even the slightest thought that he might turn his mind again towards the sea terrified her so greatly! And what did she do?
Had she tried to give Aldarion freedom? No! She knew in her heart that the sea still got hold over him but she hid again those fears in the deepest corners of her mind and rejecting reality, she pretended to live the life of a happy wife of a happy husband.
How typically Erendis’s style!
She held Aldarion in that “golden cage” of a peaceful family life just as she had always wanted. Now he was the Aldarion she wanted! The changed Aldarion! Yet, she kept torturing his soul with conversations about the Aldarion from before!
What did she expect then?! How long did she believe to have him on a leash?!
Again she failed to face reality! Another mistake!
Does not life teach, I wonder?!!!
Probably with Erendis it was not so!
For denying truth Erendis made another major mistake, which lead soon after to Aldarion’s return to his active state of living and therefore – to the deepening of the tragedy in their relationship.

6. Pride

Let’s now talk about pride.
Even if I stated at the end of my previous post that egoism is ruinous I can wholeheartedly agree with you when you say that pride is ruinous too.
What however we find present in the character of Erendis is a powerful combination of both – pride AND egoism! A combination that is strong enough to kill any decent intentions and or feelings as pure love can be! I would however like to add some more “shades” of it: fear, jealousy, wish to dominate…
Poor Erendis! She let these “ghosts” haunt her mind and soul and she herself did not become aware of their ruinous effect on her!
Pride is often a comfortable shelter for those who fail to face the real world! And this is what had befallen on Erendis! She failed to accept truths and chose to live in a world of her own, a world where she was to set the rules…. But that was not the real world!
So, hiding behind the mask of a “hurt woman”, Erendis preferred to build up her further thoughts and deeds upon vain and wrongly misunderstood pride.
In fact, it is important to pay attention to the interpretation of the word pride itself! Is it really pride what Erendis had and demonstrated? I would say – no!
Pride is a noble quality of a human being. Haughtiness is not! And what Erendis showed was precisely haughtiness that often took the ugly form of arrogance!
Aldarion was proud, too! His pride was strong, too!
But if we compare them, we’ll find a striking difference!
For what fed Aldarion’s pride was dignity, high ambitions and royal lineage and deserved position in the society.
Erendis’s pride, however, was unfortunately the bitterly bred sense of unadmitetd mistakes and helplessness to change the situation.

So, whose pride is then worth admiring and whose – to be despised… or pitied?

tbc

Lhunithiliel

04-14-2003, 03:07 PM

7. Counsels

In your analyses, my fair opponent, you often blame Aldarion for not taking counsels from anyone.
This is not true, nor I see this issue of essential importance to the analyses of “heart matters” that we are debating on.
However, since you have paid too much attention to it, I’d say a few things too.
First – look at p.3 of my present analyses
Second – A person, any person, I believe, takes counsels from other people and judges them worthy or not only on grounds of his/her own understandings of the matters of life!
Aldarion did not take counsels from his father – true. But because, unfortunately, these tow – father and son, were so different in their interests and understandings of life and life’s purposes and priorities.
On the other hand, let’s not forget that Aldarion was brought up to take decisions of his own upon essential matters from a very early age!
Let’s also not forget that he did take counsels but only from personalities he respected for their higher lore and significance in the matters of the world he lived in – the High Elves!
This, together with his individual qualities provides all the logic of him being reluctant to take counsels from his mother or even from the King – his father.
Finally, let me ask you – Did Erendis take counsels? How did she react to the counsels of her parents (her mother in particular) or from the Queen, or from the King…? No, sir!
Then, I’d say, let’s drop this issue, or rather let’s say this is a common fault of both Aldarion and Erendis….

8. nameless

Beleg: And so stupid was Aldarion’s so-called pride that when he went to Emerie and found the welcome cold, he never even tried to redress the situation. He never tried to win Erendis’ heart again, never tried to sought her, to calm her, to try to tell her the reasons behind his going, and to ask her to forgive him, instead showing amazing high-handedness, to satisfy his conscious and his boisterous ego he accused Erendis when at the beginning he was at fault.
This episode, though powerful with emotions, is indeed the culmination of the “battles of the hearts”!
Yet, this was already the bitter result from the “war” that had been held. And this “war” was started long before this moment and started by Erendis herself! She lead a “war” with herself and with Aldarion and thus ruined something beautiful and worthy.
Se ruined love!

Therefore, I do not consider this episode as another reason for Aldarion-Erendis tragedy, but as one of the final painful results.

Beleg

04-17-2003, 08:30 PM

No wonder than that Aldarion – the very King’s own son grew up also as the true son of his time – proud, bold, hard at character, strong-willed and of course - passionately enamoured with the seaposted by Lhun

Wrong, He was neither a modal son nor a modal heir. His father was ever against him travelling so frequently to distant shores and exploring distant lands, for according to him-and rightly so-it was not his, the Kings heirs duty. A Kings heir’s primary duty is to the well being of his own country and his own people and in fulfilling all the demands of the hierarchy. Numenorean heirs were by no means all enamoured by the ships or Middle Earth. They went to Middle Earth and voyaged in far sees for the sake of pleasure not as a duty to their own country.

But do not become enamoured of the Great Lands, you who one day must be King and Father of this Isle!" A Wise King shouldn’t be enamoured by the sea, he should be able to bare separation from hobbies which he loved, he should never be in two minds, like his father who even though loved the study of the Matter of Arda and Stars of Varda put it aside when the responsibility of heirship was laid upon him for it was what a King’s Heir aught to do.

"Rather would I have had you beside me, than any news or gifts from the Dark Lands. This is the part of merchants and explorers, not of the King's Heir. What need have we of more silver and gold, unless to use in pride where other things would serve as well? The need of the King's house is for a man who knows and loves this land and people, which he will rule."

So in all eternity Aldarion never proved to be a satisfactory king.

But Aldarion would have none of it, for he was ever and in every course the more opposed as those about him that urged it;

He did not have a settled mind, it is folly to both totally accept and totally ignore other’s council and being a man of over-burning pride he took upon himself to work according to the later notch.

He was interested-far more interested in the sea then a King’s heir aught to be. He preferred the life of a Mariner, not a king heir, heirship a post which brings with itself utmost responsibility of the highest level. A heir, a king needs to be balanced, paying equal attention to all parts of his comradeship.

By all accounts according to your reasons, he was certainly giving a top-notch performance as a Captain of the Ships, but not as a King’s Heir.

So lets hear out terms of a good and wise King.

Aldarion’s father Meneldur was a good and wise king,

Meneldur was a man of gentle mood, without pride, whose exercise was rather in thought than in deeds of the body. He loved dearly the land of Númenor and all things in it,

When Meneldur received the Sceptre he removed, as he must, from the Forostar, and dwelt in the great house of the Kings in Armenelos. He proved a good and wise king,

So you see not all Numenorean kings were necessarily lovers of Sea and yet they proved to be wise and learned kings.

Thus Aldarion’s passion towards sea-faring and ship-building can be well enough considered as a natural characteristic feature of his lineage and proud he had all the right to be with this inherited character!POSTED BY LHUN

As said before, no. It was not known for a Kings Heir to spend most of his time towards Ship-building and voyages. Addiction to anything is dangerous and such was the case with Aldarion. It wasn’t his inherited character if this quote has anything to say.

Meneldur was a man of gentle mood, without pride, whose exercise was rather in thought than in deeds of the body. He loved dearly the land of Númenor and all things in it, but he gave no heed to the Sea that lay all about it.

He founded the Guild of Mariners; he explored more and more of the lands of their ancient homeland,POSTED BY LHUN

Being a King’s heir his first duty was not towards exploration of a far-away land but to the welfare of his own homeland.

But do not become enamoured of the Great Lands, you who one day must be King and Father of this Isle (Meneldur to Aldarion.)

A King’s heir of great lineage, a proud man, a man devoted to matters of utmost importance for the whole nation – THIS was Aldarion!POSTED BYY LHUN

An overdoes of proud ness hinders more then helps.

Tolkien says in The Letters about the Proud nature of the Numenoreans,

But after the rebellion the king men who lived in a land most westerly of all mortal lands, and eventually in the height of their pride attempted to occupy Erresa and Valinor by force. (Letters.)

Too much pride and self-dependency was the bane of Aldarion as well as the King’s men.

Beleg

04-17-2003, 08:37 PM

[lhun]Aldarion! A King’s heir of great lineage, a proud man, a man devoted to matters of utmost importance for the whole nation – THIS was Aldarion!

It is THIS Aldarion that Erendis fell in love with!

Be he other than that, be he not so attractive in the light of his kingly pride, be he not the bold venturer and the wise and skilful beyond his years young man, she would have not loved him so deeply.

Erendis looked upon Aldarion as he rode by, and for his beauty and splendour of bearing she had eyes for little else.”

She never liked the fact that he was a Venturer and as for the beauty, it came from his mothers side, who was one of the most beautiful woman of Numenor.

Why then love him for what he was and then try to change him?!
It is Erendis’s greatest mistake to try to do such a thing?[LHUN]

The matters of heart are strange. She didn’t strictly love him for what he was. She found certain things admirable in him and certain detestable she only tried to cure the things that she found abhorrent.

Therefore, it is not Aldarion who betrayed her feelings! He was what he was. She fell in love with him ….or rather say in love with his splendour and pride … But had she ever thought of why and how Aldarion had become a man of such nature? Hadn’t she known the men of the Royal House? Hadn’t she learned about him enough – of all that he was and all that he loved and occupied with? YES! She knew all of this! And knew it well! [lhun]

We have no prove that she fell in love with his pride or splendour. So tell me is it a crime to love someone unconditionally that is attracted by something else?
She had a very good reason. Aldarion wed her with his full consent, meaning that she and not the sea should become his first priority. The bond between a wife and husband is very strong and is unlike any other bond. A Wife deserves his Husbands unconditional love for her. A Husband can only be eternally bonded to one thing, here it was a matter for Aldarion to choose what he preferred, Unwanted Sea worshipping or the hand of a loving wife. He chooses for the later and so was banded in a convent with her. A wife should support his husbands work, encourage him, root for him, even adhere him, but no wife in the world would want to share her husband with anyone else.

A woman must share her husband's love with his work and the fire of his spirit, or make him a thing not loveable.

Sure, she shared her husband’s love for Voyages with him. Read my first post and you’ll find references to many occasions where she supported him though she loved not the sea. However, what should happen when the love turns into Obsession? What should happen when a Man forgets that his primary duty is towards his Wife, whom he bonded through an official betrothal and not towards Voyages and yearning of learning new things? So she did all what a loving wife should do, she gave her husband many chances to reform and to recognise where his primary duty lies.

Whom did she love then?! Aldarion? No! She was in love with her own dream and failed to see and love the real man!posted by Lhun

She was in love with the practical Aldarion. She knew that she couldn’t totally withhold Aldarion from the sea, so masking her own fears; she supported her husband as much as she could and yet it was his husband that planted all the seeds of contradiction through his haughty behaviour and by forgetting and foregoing his promises.

What was love in Erendis’s understanding? Have Aldarion always close to her side! Make him accept the life of the farmers of her native region! Tear HIM! – The great sea-farer and ship-builder, the Great Captain of the Mariners of Numenor, away from the sea and take him to the pastures and the quiet of the inner lands! Make a quiet and domestic husband out of a wild and longing for adventures soul of a man…!!posted by Lhun

She never wanted to mould him totally according to her own thoughts. What she wanted was a nice, compromising husband who respected her thoughts and paid fair attention to her for by law she was right in Proclaiming Aldarion’s attention for herself.

Not an adventurous soul herself she allowed her husband to go on voyages, stifling her own fears, in the process hurting her own dignity, she allowed him to go for voyages for she loved him, but she couldn’t bare it when Aldarion broke his promise and also her utmost trust on him.

He made ready therefore at last for sailing in the spring; and the Venturers were glad, if none else in the Isle who knew of what was done. Three ships were manned, and in the month of Víressë, they departed. Erendis herself set the green bough of oiolairë on the prow of the Palarran, and hid her tears, until it passed out beyond the great new harbour-walls.
Six years and more passed away before Aldarion returned to Númenor. He found even Almarian the Queen colder in welcome, and the Venturers were fallen out of esteem; for men, thought that he had treated Erendis ill.

What Aldarion failed to realize was that her wife was not someone he could order around freely as he does with his minnows or someone whom he could mould in his own pattern. She was by-rights the most essential part of his life and he needed to respect her wishes to full fill the responsibilities that were demanded from him, and yet he failed to fulfil them and thus through his own folly estranged himself from her.
The public knew he was wrong, Infact everyone who saw it from an unbiased point-of-view.

I will use my days to some purpose, elsewhere, where I am not scorned, more welcome in honour.

Welcome in honor? Daresay that’s rich for even Aldarion. So Aldarion wants to be welcomed in Honor after he has returned more then 2 years after he was due to return? After he has broken a promise with his wife and had hurt her? Instead of asking Pardon or trying to gain pardon, he himself becomes Egotistical even refusing to believe that it was his fault which made the welcome cold for him. If he loved his wife so much as proclaimed by some people then why didn’t he try to resolve the matter with her, to talk it over with her? Instead here’s his reaction upon reaching Erendis’ house.

The fact was that Aldarion never treated her the way a loving man should treat his sweetheart. He was always quick to anger. Through his frequent voyages and longer-then-decided stays he implied that he didn’t care for Erendis and the bond between them. He had always been the one who thought that he could pacify everyone around him and mould them to his thoughts. Not did he realize that a man needs to learn to live with other’s thoughts and specially those of his wife, the most important person in a man’s life.

He was haughty; he refused to accept his own mistakes and often tried to through the plunder upon Erendis.

Beleg

04-17-2003, 08:58 PM

{Lhun}What is then Aldarion’s “sin” for being a man of the Numenorean society?! A man moreover of the Royal House, a man who had gained an utmost respect and high recognition and importance in this society?!
None! As I’ve said it already, he was the son of his lineage, his time, his world!

Two points to counter.

a. As has been said before numerously Aldarion was Kings Heir and as a Kings Heir it was NOT his duty to go rooming of in ships and exploring wild lands when he needed to pay more attention towards the needs of his isle and the attitude of its people becoming a mariner. His father was very open and precise about it,
The King's Heir is not a mariner by trade, nor is he under necessity."
His first duty was to his own house, his life and his wife, whatever the troubles of the other lands maybe.
'Let a King first rule well his own house ere he correct others,' it is said. It is true of all men. I will now give you counsel, son of Meneldur. You have also a life of your own. Half of yourself you have ever neglected. To you I say now: Go home!"

What is the use of trying to solve the matters of a far country, when you are deteriorating the atmosphere of your own house by neglecting your wife?

1. None! As I’ve said it already, he was the son of his lineage, his time, his world!

Alas not, he acted like a Mariner, not a King’s son or Heir. His passion for the sea was far from normal among Numenorean heirs and bordered on absurdity and quite frankly minacity.
2. who had gained an utmost respect and high recognition and importance in this society?!

Lets hear out what the society has to say about his treatment of Erendis.

He found even Almarian the Queen colder in welcome, and the Venturers were fallen out of esteem; for men, thought that he had treated Erendis ill.

Who to accuse? Aldarion surely.
Now, I strongly doubt that Erendis was not aware of this status quo. But she either did not want to admit it, or she hoped she could change it. In both cases she was wrong!

By all accounts she was not wrong. She wanted to make Aldarion what he was supposed to be and what he was not supposed to be. She wanted him to realize that some issues were more important then Voyages and seas. She wanted to make him an understanding Husband and not a Dictator who had no regard of others wishes and has bigger ego then that is good for him.

Therefore, by deceiving herself with false “dreams”, she deceived Aldarion’s hopes as well!

The dreams were not false, A persons character has the malleability of changing and if she hoped that she could change Aldarion into “what he was meant to be(a loving Husband, a neutral observer, an understanding Kings Heir, not an egotistical Sadist, and an obsessive Sea-lover.)”
What he was looking for, was a warm and loving heart of a woman – a woman of their time and of their society. Yes, he admired her for her beauty, for her tenderness, for all those feminine features that he could not find in the rough world of men that he lived in.

Contradiction! You are contradicting yourself. You are stating that he wanted a Loving heart of a Woman and further on you are stating that Erendis was tender. Tender=love-loving. What’s the point of this post then?
And how can you say Erendis wasn’t the woman of Numenorean society? She was everything she was supposed to be and what even you think Numenorean woman are supposed to be. She lived in the house of the Queen and I strongly doubt that she was trained in warfare and taught strategical theories in Queen’s house; rather she gained understanding of feminity. She was a woman of their time, would have made a good Queen had she been allowed to, she wasn’t as bendable as Almarian, and if we look at it comparatively she was more of a royal character then Almarian for she possessed certain qualities which were necessary for a queen to have. You have no fact on your side to prove that Erendis was not suitable as the wife of King’s Heir.

So, at first, while Erendis was showing to him only this part of her character, she won his affection and he believed he could be loved and love himself.

She always showed him “this” part of her character; it was only when he resolved to promise breaking and not caring for her that she hardened, she was always a loving, in-love and a responsible spouse/wife/fiancé while with him.
But she deceived him by not revealing all of her mind, concealing from him her secret hopes that once they marry she’d tame him. Had Aldarion suspected it even for a moment, he’d never let himself believe her!

Tame him! By jore he is not an animal that she’d tame him. Besides she was never secret about that she wanted him to change his ways. The whole sentence seems to indicate that Aldarion was some kind of Wild Animal. What you say is wrong based on the two quotes given below.

and at that feast he drank to Erendis, naming her Uinéniel, Daughter of Uinen, the new Lady of the Sea. But Erendis, who sat beside the wife of Valandil, said aloud: "Call me by no such name! I am no daughter of Uinen: rather is she my foe."

Beleg

04-17-2003, 09:01 PM

She revealed her mind and intentions to him completely,

"I will not share my husband with the Lady Uinen," said Erendis.

Believe what? Believe that he loved her? Love is not a thing that can be decided by thyself. It is either a spontaneous and long term process which once planted can never be removed.

[LHUN]So, I find Erendis’s fault even at this early stage of their relationship for being unable to adapt to the “norms” of the society they were both living in and for not accepting that society’s “rules” and “codes” of relations and behaviour.

Wrong. Aldarion was neither a normal person or a King’s Heir. How did she not except it? She was there for him to present the green bough whenever the need arose, the indication that she loved him and the feeling might be vice versa.

I have strong reasons to believe that being the way as she was, she would’ve made the same mistakes towards any man, be he Aldarion or someone else.
Pitty! She should’ve lived in contemporary times for she had the mind for it!
Unfortunately she did not!

No she wouldn’t. Aldarion was much more prouder, much more sterner, much less adept at solving the complex equations of his heart and much less adroit at knowing where his priorities lay. Any man wouldn’t have made the mistake of not taking his wife into confidence about important matters.

So, I find her fault for “marring” the future marriage at not being able to understand OR at not wanting to accept reality as it was!

What was reality that Aldarion was an over-condensed snob who could not perceive the hearts of others and their love for him and judged every matter on the scale of pride and through his reckless behaviour hurt the feelings of others and thought of himself as superior to others.

***********
[LHUN] Aldarion’s primary duties could never be his feelings!
Let’s not forget who he was and what his goals were!
I am not tired of repeating that he was a man of his time, a proud heir of the Kings’ line of Elros, a man brought up to be guided in his activities not by emotions but by high causes! (see p.3 – “society” )
No fault I find in this for the later tragedy in emotional matters!

Who said his primary duty were his feelings? I never said this. His primary duty was not to the sea, but to his house which consisted of his wife and as a noble man and as King’s Heir that along with the well-being of his Isle was his primary duty. But I am tired of repeating the “fact” that a person, a mans (Aldarion was definitely a man, wasn’t he?) own matters are more important then the matters of far-away. What a beautiful thing did Meneldur said, what a fine counsel.

'Let a King first rule well his own house ere he correct others,'

What is the use of try to correct the evils of the world if your own house is at fire? His parents were annoyed, the people were getting displeased, his wife was angry, all due to his mistakes, and yet he was away trying to fortify M.E against an Evil about which he knew practically nothing.

****

TBC

Beleg

04-17-2003, 09:06 PM

[Lhun]In your analyses, my fair opponent, you often blame Aldarion for not taking counsels from anyone.
This is not true, nor I see this issue of essential importance to the analyses of “heart matters” that we are debating on.

Please can you back up your claim with some kind of canonical evidence? And it is very important for when cannot decide what he/she needs to do or the matters are not clear in his/her heart then the best way is to accept and take others counsels. The Counsels are important. The King and other councillors were trying to show Aldarion the correct way of behaving and were indicating to him where he was wrong and were also providing suggestion to him about the things he needed to do, suggestion which I might add were fair and just, suggestions were about his overall behaviour, his nature and most importantly his relationship with his wife. How can you say they are not important in judging heart matters?

[LHUN]Second – A person, any person, I believe, takes counsels from other people and judges them worthy or not only on grounds of his/her own understandings of the matters of life
Aldarion did not take counsels from his father – true. But because, unfortunately, these tow – father and son, were so different from each other.
On the other hand, let’s not forget that Aldarion was brought up to take decisions of his own upon essential matters from a very early age! ferent in their interests and understandings of life and life’s purposes and priorities.!

And what if one doesn’t understand what he is doing? Such was the case with Aldarion, his feelings were muddled and he didn’t knew what to choose and in such cases wisdoms asks us to take the cousel of those more wiser and more learned then ourselves in those specific cases.
Difference between father and son is not a valid reason, all difference put aside what his father was trying to tell him was a general truth, wise and blunt counsel needs no acquaintance. To ignore someone’s counsel on the bases of a grudge is utter foolishness and shows another weakness in Aldarion’s character.
And that’s the problem my worthy adversary! Aldarion couldn’t choose his priorities correctly, he couldn’t fulfil what as a King’s Heir and as a Husband and fiancé was expected from him, and so when someone tried to set him on the right path he became rash and appalled for he thought (incorrectly) that he was correct and no one else had the right to even talk him into something or advice him. Remember as a Kings Heir, Aldarion had to choose his lifestyle very carefully for not only his own life but the life of many others also depended on his motives. Do you think the women were happy when their men started to flock to the quays to join the Venteruers? No! Sure sometimes when an important motive is in view we can lag these matters off, but to literary snatch the love’nes from the women and families of the people (and indeed to the families it would seem like snatching, when one day a man is talking with his mates about various matters and hears of the Ventuers and decides to join) leaving behind his family in utter chaos. And after he was Bethrotled, Aldarion needed to remember that the implications of his actions would be far-reaching and would only effect his life but the life of Erendis too. He needed to make some sacrifices, we all need to make some sacrifices now and then-it’s the norm of the world and it’s the way it is-but Aldarion failed to do it-along with a number of other things he failed in#.
And no one was making decisions on his parts. They were only giving him counsel, sound advice that needed to be expected and to reject it would be total folly.

Let’s also not forget that he did take counsels but only from personalities he respected for their higher lore and significance in the matters of the world he lived in – the High Elves!

I can’t for the life of it remember WHEN the High Elves gave him counsel about his love life and the way to govern his country.

[LHUN]Finally, let me ask you – Did Erendis take counsels? How did she react to the counsels of her parents (her mother in particular) or from the Queen, or from the King…? No, sir!

Yes she did, here is a citation involving counsels taken by her that related to her relationship with Aldarion,
Now Almarian the Queen, being acquainted by Núneth with what had passed, and fearing lest Aldarion should seek solace in voyaging again (for he had been long ashore), sent word to Erendis asking that she return to Armenelos; and Erendis being urged by Núneth and by her own heart did as she was bid.
So there is no need of dropping this issue, it is proved that it was not Erendis but Aldarion who was at fault in not taking Counsels.

This episode, though powerful with emotions, is indeed the culmination of the “battles of the hearts”!
Yet, this was already the bitter result from the “war” that had been held. And this “war” was started long before this moment and started by Erendis herself! She lead a “war” with herself and with Aldarion and thus ruined something beautiful and worthy.
Se ruined love!

The so-called war was not started by Erendis.
You don’t get the point. According to you all was gone and lost when Aldarion returned from his latest sojourn. That was not the case. If Aldarion had been witty and intelligent enough he COULD HAVE redressed the situation but he choose not to,

Then she wept, from grief, but still more from anger. She had looked for some penitence that she might extend after rebuke pardon if prayed for; but he had dealt with her as if she were the offender, and ignored her before her daughter.

It is clear that she still had loved Aldarion and was willing to forgive him if he asked forgiveness first (which I might add he was supposed too) but what he did is in front of us. Through his behaviour and antics pushed Erendis away and away until she became a patient of depression.

Beleg

04-17-2003, 09:11 PM

[LHUN]You say Erendis behaved like a perfect wife and yes, in those times, when Aldarion had settled down away from his sea-related matters, when he had given up his ambitions for the love he had for his new family, when he – the Great Captain of the Numenorean Mariners, had locked away his sea-longings and desires for new endeavours, then Erendis was happy! Alas! Deceit again we witness even in this quiet peaceful picture of a family life! For Erendis was deceiving again – deceiving herself and deceiving Aldarion!
Because in fact, she only pretended to be happy and only pretended to believe she had won the battle with the sea!
Perhaps, however, she could have held that “victory”. But she made a fatal mistake! Again!
Erendis often spoke to Aldarion about his former voyages and about his former activities….
How cruel!
I can understand her! She wanted to show “interested” in her husband’s affairs. Yet, on the other hand, even the slightest thought that he might turn his mind again towards the sea terrified her so greatly! And what did she do?
Had she tried to give Aldarion freedom? No! She knew in her heart that the sea still got hold over him but she hid again those fears in the deepest corners of her mind and rejecting reality, she pretended to live the life of a happy wife of a happy husband.
How typically Erendis’s style!
You keep on using the word deceiving. I must tell you that she was never deceiving anyone, she was quite aware of what she was and what she wanted. She didn’t want to share her husband with the Lady Uinen (meant here as sea) for time had proved that Aldarion became rather carefree and blithe once he was in the open airs of the sea and his love for sea was extreme-and he prided himself on being a mariner-which he was not being a King Heir and had also given the notion that he loved the sea to such extreme that if it were a living thing then he would have wedded it. Naturally it created doubt and worry in Erendis’ mind for Aldarion never tried to talk with her about her dilemma. She was possessive and she had a right to be for no woman would want her husband to give more attention to someone other then herself. She considered Sea as an enemy for it had proved as an enemy. It had been the base of Aldarion’s frequent Turn-of-modes which had created a rift between him and Erendis’ didn’t want to let that happen.
her Jealousy of sea was valid. Aldarion had an almost maniacally magnetic attraction with sea and had showed through his previous sojourns that once he was in the vast blueness of the sea he cared not about the other responsibilities

She wanted to show interest in her husband’s works because she loved him greatly, and she knew that Aldarion would expect her to back him and take interest in his work. She actually wanted to make Aldarion aware of the fact that HE enjoyed her company much more then he enjoyed his days as a Venturer, (as Aldarion later find out in the last years of his life.) She wanted to make him aware of the needs of people of Numeneor whom he would one day have to govern and the isle of Numenor contained many things completely different to ships and which Aldarion as a king, would have to take care of.

Your sarcastic use of Happy in Aldarion’s case is not justified. Nowhere is there written or implied that he was not a happy man during that period. He had certain reservations of his own, but other then that as we later find out, the days spend with Erendis was his happiest of all life.

For denying truth Erendis made another major mistake, which lead soon after to Aldarion’s return to his active state of living and therefore – to the deepening of the tragedy in their relationship.(LHUN)

Come on! She never denied truth. You have said yourself that she was ever aware of the Maniacal love Aldarion bore for sea. And Erendis was not responsible for the deepening of tragedy. It was started by Aldarion, developed by Aldarion and concluded by Aldarion through his foolishness, arrogance, egoism, and a strong sense of stupid pride.
Let’s now talk about pride.
Even if I stated at the end of my previous post that egoism is ruinous I can wholeheartedly agree with you when you say that pride is ruinous too.
What however we find present in the character of Erendis is a powerful combination of both – pride AND egoism! A combination that is strong enough to kill any decent intentions and or feelings as pure love can be! I would however like to add some more “shades” of it: fear, jealousy, wish to dominate…
Poor Erendis! She let these “ghosts” haunt her mind and soul and she herself did not become aware of their ruinous effect on her!
Pride is often a comfortable shelter for those who fail to face the real world! And this is what had befallen on Erendis! She failed to accept truths and chose to live in a world of her own, a world where she was to set the rules…. But that was not the real world!
So, hiding behind the mask of a “hurt woman”, Erendis preferred to build up her further thoughts and deeds upon vain and wrongly misunderstood pride.
In fact, it is important to pay attention to the interpretation of the word pride itself! Is it really pride what Erendis had and demonstrated? I would say – no!
Pride is a noble quality of a human being. Haughtiness is not! And what Erendis showed was precisely haughtiness that often took the ugly form of arrogance!
Aldarion was proud, too! His pride was strong, too!
But if we compare them, we’ll find a striking difference!
For what fed Aldarion’s pride was dignity, high ambitions and royal lineage and deserved position in the society.
Erendis’s pride, however, was unfortunately the bitterly bred sense of unadmitetd mistakes and helplessness to change the situation.

So, whose pride is then worth admiring and whose – to be despised… or pitied?(LHUN)

Fear based on valid facts, jealousy behind which there is a strong reason and Erendis was never the one to dominate. She never asked any special favours from Aldarion and it was Aldarion who tried to lead her like a puppet, lead Erendis from the proud house of Boer, most akin to Elves, which offcourse she could not tolerate.

LHUNHaughtiness is not
Ah and tell me who demeonstrated Haughtiness? It was Aldarion all the way! Always haughty to come to a conclusion without judging and evaluating the facts, always haughty in taunting the other and hurting their feelings. It has been proved that Aldarion was the haughty one not Erendis.
The situation is entirely reverse to your last paragraph. Dignity? What kind of dignity? When one is at fault he should admit his fault and Aldarion did not do that, so what kind of Dignity did he possess? Nothing, he was a person of an unbalanced mind who had showed through his attitude that his mind was wrapped in fantasies and stories that were far away from the real world and would only hinder his path.
Erendis was proud-no doubt-but her pride only worked when she was humiliated or severely hurt, unlike Aldarion who’s pride came in every little thing. Every where you see there is Aldarion’s big pride floating about. It came between him and Erendis talking on equal levels, it came between him apologising to Erendis (what he should have done.) It came between him and Erendis when she tried to reconcile.

Conclusion: Aldarion created the rift between himself and Erendis through,
1. His overgrown ego and big-foolish pride.
2. The lack in him of being able to decrypt his own feelings.
3. His high-handedness at accepting others rightful counsels.
4. His failure at becoming a good Kings Heir and getting along with all the responsibilities and implementations this post brought with itself.
5. His conceited behaviour and haughtiness.

These were some of the basic elements in Aldarion’s repertoire that led Erendis away from him and caused this tragedy. Thus I blame him wholeheartedly for this tragedy. With this I conclude my sequence of post, this will be my last post on this topic.

Lhunithiliel

04-19-2003, 06:53 PM

MY LAST POST

me: No wonder that Aldarion – the very King’s own son grew up also as the true son of his time – proud, bold, hard at character, strong-willed and of course - passionately enamoured with the sea.

Beleg: Wrong, He was neither a modal son nor a modal heir

I did not say he was a model heir but a proud one and a true son of his time and society! Besides, what could a model heir be in a rapidly developing society when traditions, customs, ways of life, understandings and beliefs – everything is undergoing a profound change! One could not expect Aldarion to be the same as his father, if Tar-Meneldur could be called a model heir of Earendil and Elros!

Beleg: A Kings heir’s primary duty is to the well being of his own country and his own people and in fulfilling all the demands of the hierarchy. Numenorean heirs were by no means all enamoured by the ships or Middle Earth. They went to Middle Earth and voyaged in far sees for the sake of pleasure not as a duty to their own country.
Here I definitely can’t agree! Why?! Aldarion was at all times strongly concerned with state affairs. The thing is that he and his father did not understand these matters in the same way! And how could they?! Tar-Meneldur was a peaceful “star-gazer” and no wonder because the times he lived in were still non-troubled. It was Aldarion who in his voyages to ME found out about the rising Shadow and it was in his growing friendly relations with Cirdan and Gil-galad that he became aware of what danger was coming and that Numenor could not but lead on some idle and happy life careless of the matters of the world! Remember that Aldarion’s father finally (after reading Gil-galad’s letter) recognized all his son’s actions in favour of the kingdom and that made him finally understand the importance of his son’s endeavours. It was then that he understood his own wrong attitude to his son both – as his heir and as a man of great vision.

I could of course provide quite a lot of evidences to the above, but this, I’m afraid, will certainly go too away from the Aldarion-Erendis relationship which is the subject of THIS debate. For what we are discussing here is the tragical clash between two strong characters of two individuals as personalities, not between a King’s heir and a woman from the “lesser” people not involved into state affairs, though it was this very situation!. Should we start discussing Aldarion – the King’s heir, Erendis and Aldarion’s feelings and matters of the heart have little of importance. (see p.3 in my previous post).

But concerning the point that Aldarion’s passion towards the sea is being inherited as part of his lineage, I still hold to this. Let’s not forget Aldarion was in fact a heir of Earendil, let’s not forget about Aldarion’s grand-father on his mother’s side under whose strong influence Aldarion was brought up. Let’s also not forget that Numenor was an island and a developing society as the Numenoreans’, could have never be expected to stay only on-land. What Tolkien had given to us in the overall story of Numenor, is the story of the development of a human society in a rapidly changing world. The generation gap, therefore, is strongly witnessed in every small or greater detail and it is only natural. Therefore, the differences between Adarion and his father in the matters of state are easy to be understood.
But, let’s return to the “heart-battles”!

tbc

Lhunithiliel

04-19-2003, 06:55 PM

in continuation

You speak a lot about the “overdose” of pride that Aldarion showed. I do not deny it. Yet I very well explained my opinion on “pride”-matters as pride is in the case of Aldarion and in the case of Erendis in p.6 of my previous post.

Beleg: Aldarion wed her with his full consent, meaning that she and not the sea should become his first priority. The bond between a wife and husband is very strong and is unlike any other bond. A Wife deserves his Husbands unconditional love for her. A Husband can only be eternally bonded to one thing, here it was a matter for Aldarion to choose what he preferred, Unwanted Sea worshipping or the hand of a loving wife. He chooses for the later and so was banded in a convent with her. A wife should support his husbands work, encourage him, root for him, even adhere him, but no wife in the world would want to share her husband with anyone else.
Beleg, my friend, if I am to comment on the above, I shall have to say the same things I said about the times and the society as I did in p.3 of my previous post.
The husband-wife relations in the Numenorean society strongly correspond to those, witnessed in the medieval and a bit later times of the history of the real human civilization. Women and men had quite a different social status and importance in those societies and those times, unfortunately, not in favour of women! One just cannot afford not accepting the time s/he lives in! And if one tries, s/he is to fail in not facing the reality! Just as Erendis did.

As for the wife never willing to share her husband with anyone else, as you have put it, I’d say that here we don’t deal with anyone ELSE but Aldarion himself! Please, let’s not personalize the sea as some sort of a separate individual that Erendis had to compete with! It was Aldarion she had to deal with! It was part of HIM and HIS mind and HIS character! Not some separately existing thing or person that stood in Erendis’s way to Aldarion’s heart!

Strange it is to me that YOU seem to claim that Erendis as if did not love Aldarion for him being what he was in the full entity of his individuality and personality! You claim that she loved him, yet she :
didn’t strictly love him for what he was. She found certain things admirable in him and certain detestable she only tried to cure the things that she found abhorrent.
But this is precisely her part and greatest mistake in their relationship! If true love is to be, then you cannot love only some things and others – not! You either love a partner as he/she is or you don’t love him/her at all! You are too soft on Erendis saying that she tried to cure those features in Aldarion’s character that she did like not. But, please! What gives her the right to “cure” him?! Her love for him? No! It was her fear and inability to understand a great mind of a great person as Aldarion was! In believing that he should be just an exemplary husband and nothing more Erendis’s weakness and egoism are most strongly obvious!
But as I said egoism is ruinous for true love and honest relationship!

The thing is, that if we accept your statement about Erendis understanding Aldarion’s passion towards the sea BUT trying to change that in her favour for she herself did not like the sea, then it becomes obvious once more that unfortunately Erendis IN FACT did NOT understand WELL the true purpose of her husband’s endeavours. As I said in brief at the beginning of the present post, Aldarion’s endeavours and sea-related activities were insufficiently understood even by the King!

tbc

Lhunithiliel

04-19-2003, 06:57 PM

No one could ever deny the strong tragedy of the inner war that Erendis had to fight – the war with herself. Love against fear and doubt! Dreams – against reality! This war influenced strongly her own behaviour and at times she was either love-giving and tender while in other cases – unsure and doubtful and cold… Too complicated is a woman’s heart to be understood plainly by a man!
Imagine however, what it looked like on the outer side – the things Aldarion saw: in some cases there was a woman of love and grace and tenderness that he adored, the next – a cold and untouchable woman, closed in her own feelings and thoughts, displeased and showing a bitter reproach towards her lover’s life and understanding of life. This woman he did not like and could not understand but for the respect he had for her and for the feelings he had for her – he tolerated this changeability in Erendis’s mood! Yet, if seen from his side – it was like: “ Aldarion, I love you but I am not sure who you are. Change and you’ll please me!”.

This leads me to the next point – namely that Aldarion is accused by you for breaking his promises to Erendis. This however is NOT a REASON but an unfortunate though only logical CONSEQUENCE from two things: one – Erendis fears the sea, she does not like the fact that Aldarion dedicates too much effort in sea-related endeavours and no matter how she tries to conceal it, it is a fact that Aldarion becomes aware of at a very early stage of their relationship. He tries several times to help her overcome this fear and even she shows some willingness he feels this could never be changed and he accepts it! He does not insist any more on changing or “curing” her fears, but just makes a kingly comfortable house for her where she can have all the things she loves.
So, it is that he could understand her and accept her just the way she was! For he loved her with honesty! ;
two – Because of his love for her, Aldarion tried to please her expectations many times. But you cannot command the heart! And Aldarion’s heart lived with two loves – to his wife and family and on the other hand – to his ambitions. She tried to tame him and make him settle to a quiet life in the peaceful comfort of their family house. This was however not Aldarion’s style of living! And with all the honesty he always showed in his feelings and his actions, Aldarion was dragged into a conflict that was imposed by Erendis and her requirements towards him.
Therefore, if we trace the roots of the reasons why Aldarion could not keep his promises, we can find the strong presence of Erendis there! Because it was Erendis’s egoistic desires to keep him by her side that he wished to please, but on the other hand – his ambitions he could not deny and let go of the great plans he was being involved in - affairs and projects of great significance for Numenor. And let’s also not forget the great and deep conflict Aldarion had with his father in matters of the state!

Therefore what you say:
Being a King’s heir his first duty was not towards exploration of a far-away land but to the welfare of his own homeland.
is untrue, because Aldarion’s journeys to ME were always dedicated and meant for the welfare of his homeland!
…… for Aldarion was a man long-sighted, and he looked forward to days when the people would need more room and greater wealth; and whether he himself knew this clearly or no, he dreamed of the glory of Númenor and the power of its kings, and he sought for footholds whence they could step to wider dominion.

Beleg What is the use of try to correct the evils of the world if your own house is at fire? His parents were annoyed, the people were getting displeased, his wife was angry, all due to his mistakes, and yet he was away trying to fortify M.E against an Evil about which he knew practically nothing.
Oh, but, Beleg!!!!
"…… Has not a King's son aught to do but study women's faces to find a wife? The work of forestry I took up, and I have been prudent in it; there will be more timber in Númenor ere my day ends than there is under your sceptre
As for the importance of Aldarion’s deeds in Middle-earth IN FAVOUR of Numenor’s welfare, let’s read a bit of Gil-galad’s letter:
A new shadow arises in the East. It is no tyranny of evil Men, as your son believes; but a servant of Morgoth is stirring, and evil things wake again. Each year it gains in strength, for most Men are ripe to its purpose. Not far off is the day, I judge, when it will become too great…….
So the Lord Aldarion long has seen…..
Why would I or anyone else ever again try to prove the importance of Aldarion’s deeds when the above proves all clearly!?!

Beleg: What she wanted was a nice, compromising husband who respected her thoughts and paid fair attention to her…
Then why marry a man of this high position?! Better she had married an ordinary man, who would be content and satisfied enough with just having a peaceful family life!

….for by law she was right in Proclaiming Aldarion’s attention for herself.
By law – perhaps, but law does not have any control over love and trust, nor attention or any of those things called human relations!

tbc

Lhunithiliel

04-19-2003, 06:59 PM

Now, there is a long list of your comments on little pieces from my posts. However, taking them as a whole, I can see your attempts to counter my opinion that Erendis did not and could not accept her position in the time and society she lived in. You provide quotes about her being educated in the house of the Queen, about her observing the traditions etc.
She did all these, all right! But it was all because she was passionately in love with Aldarion and wanted very very much to prove this love – prove it to him, to the Queen, to the King and to all people ! I have NEVER said nor claimed that Erendis did not love Aldarion! The tragedy is that she poisoned her love with egoistic and I’d say “small” ambitions that unfortunately did not match Aldarion’s!
And this is precisely the mistake she made!
. Never would Erendis take less, that she might not lose all; and fearing the Sea, and begrudging to all ships the felling of trees which she loved, she determined that she must utterly defeat the Sea and the ships, or else be herself defeated utterly.
At the same time Aldarion was always honest to her. No one can deny Aldarion the honesty he treated people around him with! Because first of all he was honest to himself!
The following bit of the conversation before their betrothal is only one of those numerous bits in the tale where we witness Aldarion’s honesty!
Therefore they departed together, and came to Emerië, where were rolling downs of grass, and it was the chief place of sheep pasturage in Númenor; and they saw the white houses of the farmers and shepherd, and heard the bleating of the flocks.
There Erendis spoke to Aldarion and said: "Here could I be at ease!"
"You shall dwell where you will, as wife of the King's Heir," said Aldarion. "And as Queen in many fair houses, such as you desire."
"When you are King, I shall be old," said Erendis. "Where will the King's Heir dwell meanwhile?"
"With his wife," said Aldarion, "when his labours allow, if she cannot share in them."
"I will not share my husband with the Lady Uinen," said Erendis.
"That is a twisted saying," said Aldarion. "As well might I say that I would not share my wife with the Lord Oromë of Forests, because she loves trees that grow wild."
It came later, when restrained by customs and by his deep respect towards Erendis that Aldarion tried to be dishonest to himself… Could he endure long such a state of mind? Impossible! Aldarion never feared reality! He was never afraid of truths no matter how sad they could be:
"Out of sight of land she will die!" he said. "Soon I shall die, if I see it longer. Then if we are to spend any years together I must go alone, and go soon."
And to Erendis:
"Eight years I have stayed. You cannot bind for ever in soft bonds the son of the King, of the blood of Tuor and Eärendil!
Blame him not then for being unable to keep promises that were imposed to him against his will, against his mind! Such promises are always doomed to be broken!

Now, as I admit Erendis loved Aldarion, though a “spoiled” and ruined love it was, thus no one can deny that Aldarion loved Erendis! The difference as I have already proven was that he loved her with honesty, understanding and tried hard to find the right balance in his heart between feelings and matters of higher importance!
As long as feelings only were concerned, Aldarion’s love was no less than hers! Yet, what did he get in return?:
To her at least I spoke long and often: to cold ears uncomprehending. ……. I love her, or I should care less. The past I will keep in my heart; the future is dead. She does not love me, or aught else. She loves herself with Númenor as a setting, and myself as a tame hound, to drowse by the hearth until she has a mind to walk in her own fields. But since hounds now seem too gross, she will have Ancalimë to pipe in a cage. But enough of this. Have I the King's leave to depart? ….

"It is far below my hope of her. She has dwindled; and if I have wrought this, then black is my blame. But do the large shrink in adversity? This was not the way, not even in hate or revenge! She should have demanded that a great house be prepared for her, called for a Queen's escort, and come back to Armenelos with her beauty adorned, royally, with the star on her brow; then well nigh all the Isle of Númenor she might have bewitched to her part, and made me seem madman and churl. The Valar be my witness, I would rather have had it so: rather a beautiful Queen to thwart me and flout me, than freedom to rule while the Lady Elestirnë falls down dim into her own twilight."

All right now, here are my conclusions:

I find Erendis’s fault for destroying her relationship with Aldarion for:

1. She being unable to face reality – the reality of her time, the reality about her partner, the reality that she could not have it all only and solely according to her own desires and understandings.
I can understand her – she was passionately in love with Aladrion! Painfully in love! But passion can and often is doomed!

2. She being uncertain right from the beginning of their love-affair and still letting things develop hoping that only later she would be able to change them as she wished.

3. She willing and constantly trying to change Aldarion without fully understanding the essence of his deeds. She loved a “dream” and she tried to turn Aldarion into this dream of hers! Egoism and love! Powerful, though, unfortunately, ruinous combination!

4. But mostly I find her fault in deceiving herself, and I pity her for not being able to face her own mistake. Instead she preferred to blame everyone else for the misfortune that befell on her life!

**********

This is the end of this wonderful debate and I wish to thank Beleg for being such a wonderful opponent! :)

Now everything is in the hands of the judges!

May they be fair and just!