The Grey Havens [Archive] - THE TOLKIEN FORUM

Grond

12-15-2001, 04:05 AM

Firstly, only the Eldar race get to sail from the havens. They go to the further most West and dwell in the land of Aman or the "Blessed Realm". As was illustrated in the Return of the King, a few select members of other races were allowed to go there in their final days. (for example: Bilbo and Frodo; and, later, Samwise and Gimli) The elves went there, not to die, but to live forever in peace and health. The others went there to live out their days in blessed happiness.

As to your question of what happens when they die in battle, for example. Elves can die by wound or malice and when they die, they go to Mandos in the Halls of Waiting. Man is also believed to go under Mandos' jurisdiction upon death but to where their souls reside only Iluvator, Manwe and Mandos know for sure.

This is all spelled out in the Silmarillion. It's a difficult read but gives you the entire history of the world of Middle-earth.

I am not learned in where the souls of the other mortal denizens of the world of Middle-earth go upon death. Maybe someone more learned than I can point you in the right direction so we'll know where Hobbits & Dwarves & Trolls & Orcs go upon death.

Greymantle

12-15-2001, 04:26 AM

I've wondered about this, myself. Presumably, Hobbits, as an ofshoot of Men would share the gift of Iluvatar. As for the others... I've know idea. I was actually just thinking of posting a thread on this, myself. *Whistles for Telchar and Cian*
If anyone knows, they do.

dj_fle

12-15-2001, 04:26 AM

Thanx a lot,

I haven't read the Sillmarillion yet, but your info has really helped!
Now the ending of the greatest fantasy epic of our time is clear to me!

Greymantle

12-15-2001, 04:29 AM

I know I certainly didn't get it my first time through! Do read the Silmarillion, it's an amazing epic work, easily on par with LotR in magnitude.
Oh my, I'm forgetting my manners. Welcome to the Forum! :)

Cian

12-17-2001, 04:49 PM

I can't really hear internet whistles :) but thanks for the confidence vote Grey:

Yep, I would agree that Hobbits and Men have the same 'fate' deathwise. As for Dwarves, the Prof penned the interesting stuffs in The Later Quenta Silmarillion ~ "Aforetime the Noldor held that dying they returned unto the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief." The Dwarves believed that Aulë gathered them in Mandos in halls set apart for them, and there they wait: "... not in idleness but in the practice of crafts and the learning of yet deeper lore." They said that Aulë declared to their fathers that Ilúvatar will: "... hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End."

About Orcs and Trolls I don't know exactly. In any event Tolkien was still seemingly working out orc-origins regarding 'stock' even, in his "orc-essays", where he wrote:

"In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs immortal in the Elvish sense? Or Trolls? It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that Trolls existed in their own right, but were 'tinkered' with by Melkor. JRRT

Another passage on Orcs reads:
"These may then have even been mated with beasts (sterile!) -- and later Men. Their life span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the end." JRRT

And again on Trolls:
"The Elves would have classed the creatures called 'trolls' (in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) as Orcs -- in character and origin -- but they were larger and slower. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types." JRRT

I would emphasize the 'searching nature' of these essays on Orcs and Trolls. Cheers

Greymantle

12-17-2001, 05:29 PM

Cool! Thanks....
I also remember now Thorin talking about how, in dying, he was journeying to the "halls of his fathers." Doubtless Tolkien just made this up in writing The Hobbit, but this seems to correspond with the Dwarves' belief Cian posted...

Flame of Utumno

12-18-2001, 11:33 AM

Isn't it ironic that the Elves and the Valar/Maia, those who are meant to have immortality in Arda end up living completely detached from it and that mortal man has taken over the earth....
I wonder what would have happened if the Numenoreans had not attacked Valinor and caused the separation of the Blessed Realm...

Flame of Utumno

12-18-2001, 11:52 PM

Now, is that so? [/QUOTE]

What would you know anyway?

Please enlighten all of us and give a more positive contribution to the forum.

Grond

12-19-2001, 05:33 AM

Oh wondrous Flame of Utumno. Thou needest to give yon Walter a break. He is a valued contributor to the forum and while he liketh to "stir the pot", his input is valued "none the less".

So....... get over it. This forum is not a place to get pissed or take things personal. If someone jests with you, jest back don't stab back. :)
Having said all that, I will now address your post flame.

I agree that it is ironic that the Vala and Elves dwell in a place sundered from the Middle-earth they love so much. It is indeed fun to speculate as to what would have happened had the Numenorians not attempted to storm Aman and thus caused Eru to separate the spiritual from the physical... as it were.:)

Flame of Utumno

12-19-2001, 06:44 AM

Grond,

Thanks for your correction and sorry if I offended anyone.
I really take this forum seriously as it is a great passion of mine. I just get frustrated when other members don't seem to take it as seriously.

Cheers,
Flame of Utumno

Brent

12-19-2001, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Grond
Elves can die by wound or malice and when they die, they go to Mandos in the Halls of Waiting. Man is also believed to go under Mandos' jurisdiction upon death but to where their souls reside only Iluvator, Manwe and Mandos know for sure.]

[/B]
I'm not sure that is so. Mandos is the name of the place the actual Vala's name is Námo. I think you will find that the souls of men pass from the world, and where they go is unknown to the Valar. Perhaps Manwe knows ?
Certainly in Beren's case Manwe goes away to meditate and Illuvatar reveals to his mind that he cannot withold the gift of death from Beren BUT that Luthien may opt to return to ME with him and become mortal.
Sil. alludes to the fact that Men have some special connection with Illuvatar that is not know to the Valar. Because their theme in the music of creation was not clear ??.

Grond

12-19-2001, 05:55 PM

Hail and well met, Brent.

You are however, splitting hairs, as the saying goes. Namo is commonly referred to as Mandos as Varda is commonly referred to as Elbereth. The fate of Man is revealed to a degree in the Silmarillian but, alas, I am at work and don't have my copy close at hand. As soon as I get home, I will post the exact verbage from the text to support my assertion.

Brent

12-19-2001, 07:15 PM

I think not oh mighty weapon of morgoth.
You are correct in your statement but I'm not "splitting hairs". I was referring to the fact that the Halls of Mandos are a place. (and as I recall they don't belong to guy called Mandos it means Prison-fortress)
Elbereth is not, neither is your bosses "cognomen" Morgoth nor Curufinwe's Feanor.
Men alone go beyond the confines of the world. Ainur (eye-noor) that enter the world may not leave it.
I too am at work but I think you will find this in the Ainulindalë.

Greymantle

12-19-2001, 07:34 PM

Yes...they are a place... but as this is the dwelling of Namo he ends up being commonly called by that name. Sort of a reverse of Hades.
Anyways, if everyone went around calling each other by their true names, the books would be kind of messy.... "Hey, Meriadoc Brandibuck, grap that for me, will you?" "Oh, there you are, Olorin..."

Grond

12-19-2001, 07:37 PM

Oh Brent, thou art challenging a mighty loremaster of Middle-earth and thou wilt surely lose should you choose to do battle for I am Grond, Mighty Hammer of Melkor and...... thou art both correct and mistaken.

Aredhel

12-19-2001, 08:04 PM

They are a place and I don't know what you are talking about anyway.

Cian

12-19-2001, 08:27 PM

I don't know if I'm missing the point here, (hey, it happens :D) but here's some 'stuffs' of possible interest anyway:

The published Silmarillion

" ... and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows wither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea."

"But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers."

From the authors commentary on Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

7)
"Since Men die, without accident, and whether they will to do so or not, their fëar must have a different relation to Time. The Elves believed, though they had no certain information, that the fëar of Men, if disembodied, left Time (sooner or later), and never returned. (Authors note *4 ...)" JRRT

*note 4
"Sooner or later. Because the Elves believed that the fëar of dead Men also went to Mandos (...). There they waited until they were surrendered to Eru. The truth of this is not asserted ..." JRRT

Letters

"The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world ... (my edit) ... mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purposed for Men is hidden'." JRRT

"Neither had they of course any special information concerning what 'death' portended for Men. They believed that it meant 'liberation from the circles of the World', and was in that respect to them enviable." JRRT

Sorry that some of that is plucked from context, edited for brevity and vaguely whatnot, but I type one-fingered :)

Grond

12-19-2001, 11:27 PM

Alas, Cian has done my research and proved my point all at once without Grond having to open a book. Thanks to you O Learned Cian and to you Brent, my boss was Melkor. He never referred to himself as Morgoth and neither did any of his vassels (unless they wanted to fry in the flame of Utumno.) Morgoth was a cursed name given him by Feanor and only used by His opponents. touche!:p

And to you O Aredhel the following quote is made from the index of the Silmarillion concerning Mandos.

"Mandos - The place of the dwelling in Aman of the Vala properly called Namo, the Judge, though this name was seldom used, and he himself was usually referred to as Mandos. Named as Vala: 25....etc, etc, etc" Mandos was the name of the place AND the common name of the Vala Namo! I rest my case.

Brent

12-19-2001, 11:40 PM

Not exactly thats not what it says there is no definitive answer the correct quote is

"Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos ........ and Mandos under Illuvatar alone save Manwe knows wither they go after the time of recollection....."

p121 of the book

Which is CONSIDERABLY different if you miss out the first two words. Hey its much easier to go trolling through the book. But where's the fun in that eh ?

Brent

12-19-2001, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Grond
Alas, Cian has done my research and proved my point all at once without Grond having to open a book. Thanks to you O Learned Cian and to you Brent, my boss was Melkor. He never referred to himself as Morgoth and neither did any of his vassels (unless they wanted to fry in the flame of Utumno.) Morgoth was a cursed name given him by Feanor and only used by His opponents. touche!:p

And to you O Aredhel the following quote is made from the index of the Silmarillion concerning Mandos.

"Mandos - The place of the dwelling in Aman of the Vala properly called Namo, the Judge, though this name was seldom used, and he himself was usually referred to as Mandos. Named as Vala: 25....etc, etc, etc" Mandos was the name of the place AND the common name of the Vala Namo! I rest my case.

What case ? I'm not sure I see it. The brillance of the prof is his use of language.

Morgoth or more properly Morgoth Bauglir and its a "given name as the norse term it. It means 'Black Enemy'; 'Bauglir' is 'The Constrainer' His choice doesn't seem to matter @ p32 "last of all is set the name of melkor, he who arises in might. But that name he has forfeited"
Whereas Mandos is the name of a place means prison fortress. Poor old Vala always gets called after his job !!

Brent

12-20-2001, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Cian
I don't know if I'm missing the point here, (hey, it happens :D) but here's some 'stuffs' of possible interest anyway:

"The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world ... (my edit) ... mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purposed for Men is hidden'." JRRT

"Neither had they of course any special information concerning what 'death' portended for Men. They believed that it meant 'liberation from the circles of the World', and was in that respect to them enviable." JRRT

Sorry that some of that is plucked from context, edited for brevity and vaguely whatnot, but I type one-fingered :)

Don't be sorry the latter part is interesting is that from The Etymologies (The History of Middle-earth Volume 5, The Lost Road and Other Writings III The Etymologies), or letters ?

Grond

12-20-2001, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by Brent

What case ? I'm not sure I see it. The brillance of the prof is his use of language.

Morgoth or more properly Morgoth Bauglir and its a "given name as the norse term it. It means 'Black Enemy'; 'Bauglir' is 'The Constrainer' His choice doesn't seem to matter @ p32 "last of all is set the name of melkor, he who arises in might. But that name he has forfeited"
Whereas Mandos is the name of a place means prison fortress. Poor old Vala always gets called after his job !!

Your quote doesn't bear on how the name was received. If you'll look in the Index of The Sil you will read under Morgoth.... the following, "The Black Enemy, name of Melkor, first given to him by Feanor after the rape of the Silmarils." and in the text in the 10th paragraph of the chapter entitled "Flight of the Noldor" it states, "The Feanor rose, and lifting up his hand before Manwe he cursed Melkor, naming him Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World; and by that name only was he known to the Eldar ever after."

Please O Brent the Learned.... don't make me prove every statement I make with the quotes from the book. I'll never have time to do any constructive posting on the threads.:rolleyes: :)

Cian

12-20-2001, 05:31 AM

Despite my pre-apology for "editing" I'll yet say a quick sorry for cutting off a quote ~ it was not meant to mis-represent a conception, but I believed the fuller conception was presented in the Athrabeth anyway, so I thought ideas were better 'covered' therein.

Still, I should not have been lazy. Brent, the parts you quoted were from two seperate Letters ... not the only mentions (in this regard) in Letters I should add.

Maria Atilano

12-30-2001, 05:44 PM

Hi, all. I have a few questions about the general idea of The Grey Havens, which my small amount of resources won't let me in on. I know that it's the final destination of Frodo, Bilbo, Galadriel, Elrond, etc, etc. However, what does it hold for it's visitors? Do they pass away or merely live a life of immortality? What is the place exactly like? Why do the Ringbearers choose to travel there rather than live in Middle-earth?

Any explanations and/or clues will be greatly appreciated! Cheers.

Snaga

12-30-2001, 05:54 PM

Well the Havens themselves are on the West coast of Eriador on the Gulf of Lune. The ring bearers and elves etc set sail for the Uttermost West, kind of paradise really.

You need to read Silmarillion to learn more

Ancalagon

12-30-2001, 05:59 PM

I would not wish to portray 'The lands of the Valar' by giving my account of their wonder and beauty. Instead, locate a paperback copy of the Silmarillion and read until you are filled with knowledge that will help you truly understand the depth of Tolkiens creation and the wonder of the Valar.

This is a complete cop-out because I don't believe anyone can truly explain Valinor and do it justice,except only the author himself.

Hello, how are you? :)

Thariel

12-30-2001, 06:06 PM

The "Grey Havens" isn't actually the final destination for Bilbo, Frodo, Gimli, Legolas etc, it is a costal town and harbour, from which they travel out to sea to reach the "Undying Lands". These lands are located far across the "Great Sea", and is the home of the the Valar, Maiar and Elves. However only the Elves from Middle-Earth are allowed to travel to it, with the exception of those mortals who are specially granted by the Valar. Mortals who travel there unfortunately do not become immortal like the Elves. As for the reason why the heroes of the ring wanted to live there can be a number of things. They had never seen the lands before, so it would be a new experience I suppose.

Dengen-Goroth

12-30-2001, 06:34 PM

The Grey Havens are west of the Blue Mountains, which are not very far from the Shire. The Grey Havens can be seen as a port of sorts, whee ships are constructed by Cirdan, believed to be the oldest elf living, and other elves to carry elves to Valinor. There have been but few exceptions, for only elves may venture to Valinore. Frodo left because he was weary and ill, and the past haunted him. Valinor is home to the Vala, who may be considered wither gods or archangels in Tolkien's world. In there land it was like perpetual spring, beautiful and glorious, and only there could Frodo heal his wounds. Gandalf arrived from Valinor, along with Saruman, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards to put a stop to Sauron. Bilbo left, well, I think because he was old and just wanted to see the place. The elves left because they were weary of the sorrows of Middle-earth, and could only find peace there. Hope that helped.

Maria Atilano

12-31-2001, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by Dengen-Goroth
The Grey Havens are west of the Blue Mountains, which are not very far from the Shire. The Grey Havens can be seen as a port of sorts, whee ships are constructed by Cirdan, believed to be the oldest elf living, and other elves to carry elves to Valinor. There have been but few exceptions, for only elves may venture to Valinore. Frodo left because he was weary and ill, and the past haunted him. Valinor is home to the Vala, who may be considered wither gods or archangels in Tolkien's world. In there land it was like perpetual spring, beautiful and glorious, and only there could Frodo heal his wounds. Gandalf arrived from Valinor, along with Saruman, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards to put a stop to Sauron. Bilbo left, well, I think because he was old and just wanted to see the place. The elves left because they were weary of the sorrows of Middle-earth, and could only find peace there. Hope that helped.

It helped very much, thank you!

Hawkblaze

01-31-2002, 12:20 AM

Ok, this is making Hawkblaze very very mad.

Can someone please explain to me the ending of LOTR? I asked the most obsessed Tolkien nut I know and all he could tell me is "The Grey Havens are 'Where the elves go.'" Is it heaven? Is it a different continent? What the heck are the Grey Havens!!!?

Elfarmari

01-31-2002, 01:45 AM

I'm sure there's someone on here who knows this a lot better than I do, but I'll try.
In the first age (the LotR's in the third) many of the elves were invited to Valinor by the Valar (kind of like gods). The Valar want the elves to go there so they can live in peace and happiness and be taught, basically. A lot happens, which I won't try to explain b/c I'd probably mess it up, but the elves end up rebelling and leaving. Ater te elves who return to middle earth fight against Melkor (the bad valar, Sauron was his servant), the Valar allow them to return to Valinor if they become weary of Middle Earth. To get there, the elves take a ship, from the Grey Havens (which I'm guessing is a city where the ships are built). Because he was a ringbearer, Frodo is allowed to go, and Gimli is allowed to go either because of his respect for Galadriel or his friendship with Legolas. I hope this makes sense.

Beleg Strongbow

01-31-2002, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by Nienor
I'm sure there's someone on here who knows this a lot better than I do, but I'll try.
In the first age (the LotR's in the third) many of the elves were invited to Valinor by the Valar (kind of like gods). The Valar want the elves to go there so they can live in peace and happiness and be taught, basically. A lot happens, which I won't try to explain b/c I'd probably mess it up, but the elves end up rebelling and leaving. Ater te elves who return to middle earth fight against Melkor (the bad valar, Sauron was his servant), the Valar allow them to return to Valinor if they become weary of Middle Earth. To get there, the elves take a ship, from the Grey Havens (which I'm guessing is a city where the ships are built). Because he was a ringbearer, Frodo is allowed to go, and Gimli is allowed to go either because of his respect for Galadriel or his friendship with Legolas. I hope this makes sense.

Bilbo and Sam got to go to cause they handled the ring themselves. The Grey Havens is were Cirdan lives. He has dewlt in M.E in all ages. They live their cause it is close 2 valinor and it is a great harbour and trees are handing.