The 2003 TTF Debating Tournament - Discussion

[Aulë]

UPDATED SCHEDULE (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=324288#post324288)













Well, now that the Tolkienologists have finally replied, we can get this show on the road.
Now, for those of you who have no idea about what I'm talking about, let me explain what's going on.

What I have in mind is that each guild (Periaur, OiE, Tolkienologists, Scholars) would debate against each other twice over a certain amount of time, having one debate as the 'challenger' and one as the 'acceptor' (Therefore choosing their stance (negative or positive) when 'acceptor'), and the results would be put up in a table (eg, 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw).
In this way, each Guild would take part in 6 debates, therefore putting their debating 'depth' to the test, as it would be difficult for a Guild member to participate in every debate (Unless they were an Uber-debator like Maedhros).

Each Guild would nominate a member (or 2 or 3) to be a neutral 'host' for other Guild's debates during the tournaments, and to come up with debate topics, start threads and organize judging.

FoolOfATook has agreed to be the tournament co-ordinator, and he will make sure that each Guild nominates their teams on time, and to make sure that everything runs smoothly.
We need someone to be the official debate topic co-ordinator, who shall have to approve each debate topic (thought of by the apponted host for each debate), or to come up with a nifty topic if the host needs some help.

Each Guild should have nominated their Debating 'squad' in this thread before the tournament begins. Any alterations afterwards will have to go through FoolOfATook.

Now, certain things need to be agreed to still.
Namely,

Each Debate's Length
Debating Team Size
Number of Judges for Each Debate
Anything else that Needs Discussing

Discuss :)

[YayGollum]

First of all, why are the only guilds involved in this the ones that they are? Why haven't all of the guilds been tossed this idea? Not that I'd especially want the guild of Outcasts to be in on this. I'm not a big fan of debates, I'm just wondering why. oh well.

The length of a debate should be when both sides are tired of it. :D No, I guess that could make it go on for forever. I would think that the length would depend on the debate sometimes. Maybe not. How's about a month? A good topic could go on that long, right? I'm no expert and could really care less. *hides*

Debate team size? I don't know. Three or four. No big deal.

Number of judges? Would one be bad? Probably. Okay, five for every debate. Odd numbers = good numbers.

Anything else that needs discussing? Well, I already talked about something else at the beginning. Can't think of anything else now. *runs away*

[Aulë]

YayGollum, these four guild are unofficially known as the 'debating guilds' as they are the only ones to compete in inter-guild debates. It is for this reason that a member is only allowed to be in one of them.

None of the other Guilds have shown any interest in inter-guild debating so I saw no need in inviting them.

[YayGollum]

Got it. No support for any of the ideas I tossed at you. Well, you were the one who asked for ideas. oh well. Anyways, if those guilds are unofficially debating guilds, how do you expect normal people like me to know? :rolleyes: oh well. Whatever you say. I'd at least think that it would be a nice gesture to ask the other guilds. *sniff*

[Aulë]

If you'd like to submit a team from the Outcasts, I'd gladly add you to the tournament.

And I took note of your suggestions, and they'll be considered once a few more suggestions have rolled in.

[YayGollum]

Got it. I have no idea if the Outcasts would be interested in something as crazy as this. I'll go ask. I'd only want to join if I knew what the debates were before I went into them. oh well. *runs away*

[Ancalagon]

I agree with Yay, the other Guilds ought to be asked if they want to participate before assuming they don't. I know the Guild of Elves (who do not yet officially exist, but do exist) would like to get a team together. I am certain the Guild of Dwarves would be keen to get one and I am sure would The Time Lords, which contains some of our smartest eggheads in the forum! So it might be that you could have 8 teams in this leagu...ooops, tournament!

Plus, I don't think debates should last more than 8 replies per team, if you havent convinced the judges by then, it will get boring and repetitive with the same arguements being rolled out constantly.

When we considered this idea before, it was agreed by any who discussed it that timelimits and scoring would be essential to making it continue momentum. Beorn actually created Tolkien Debates.com based on the idea!

[Aulë]

The problem with the GoE debating team is that all of the people who want to be in a debating team are already in one of the debating guilds.
The Guild of Dwarves has only just started, and we are not ready for such a thing.
The Time Lords could participate if they'd like.

[Chymaera]

Each Debate's Length: Eight replies sounds good to me.

Debating Team Size: 3 or 4

Number of Judges for Each Debate: 3 non-debating members of the host guild


Would it be better to have the debates over at Tolkiendebates.com or to have them here?

[YayGollum]

Woah! Who gets to decide who's ready for this thing? And how do you know there aren't other people in that guild of elves place that might suddenly get interested in debating if they happen to know that they get to represent their guild in a whole new way? Sure, I agree with you about the Dwarf thing, but I happen to think that no matter how unlikely you think the chances are of any of these guilds making a team just for debates, you should still toss the idea at them. It's a nice gesture. You are acknowledging the fact that they are a guild and that there will be a guild versus guild debate thing going on. oh well. Never mind. Silly me. You know what's best. :rolleyes:

[Chymaera]

Of course thing are just in discusion mode so nothing is written in stone.

Maybe if there is interest some guilds might field more then one team and non-guild members might form there own teams.

Also you have to concider the last debate that it will be difficult enough with just four teams to organize and run and judge we should crawl before we run!

[Ancalagon]

Woah! Who gets to decide who's ready for this thing? LOL, I was thinking the exact same thing myself when I read it:D

[Aulë]

I don't want this to become too big, Chymaera. Only one team from each Guild.
If any other Guilds would like to field a team, I'd glady add them to the tournament.

This is just an inter-guild tournament, TolkienDebates is for all the large scale debating.

[YayGollum]

Sure, crazy lady. I gots nothing against the guy's opinion. I just think that it would be a little more fair for everyone if the idea was tossed at the guild as a whole. Let all of the members see the idea and get invited to rally up a team. Maybe someone should at least PM the dudes in charge of the different guilds so they can tell their people about it. There are plenty of other people besides me and this guy in the guild of Dwarves. oh well.

Anyways, Woah! Are you actually considering having anything to do with the guild of Outcasts again, lady? Let me faint! :rolleyes:

[Beleg]

I think the problem with other guilds participating is that some leading members of those (RP) Guilds are quite active members of Lets say Guild of Tolkienology. It would be a conflict of Intrests too.

A debate should not be longer then 2 posts per member. This help to in stopping the repeptation of Ideas.

I guess 4 or 5 is the Standard contestent number for a Guild Debate?

4 Judges along with a poll.

Their might be other things too, for example most members here have not read HOME series so it might worry them if references are used from HOME and Members who haven't read HOME might not be able to tackle them. Then there is the time limit too. I guess 2 weeks per debate is a standard time but for tournament it might need to be lessended due to the abundunce of Debates.

Oh and Nice planning Pippin :) You sure have worked the schedule out carefully.

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by Pippin Took
I don't want this to become too big, Chymaera. Only one team from each Guild.
If any other Guilds would like to field a team, I'd glady add them to the tournament.

This is just an inter-guild tournament, TolkienDebates is for all the large scale debating. Yes, bigger is not better;)

I see the generation of 16 good debate topics as the biggest problem
[a lot of brain sweat will have to tackle that.]

This should keep everyone busy right through the summer.:)

[Maedhros]

The Guild of Scholars is game. I look foward to seeing and participating in the debates. I would like to offer to coordinate the debate topics, but I would like to participate in a couple of debates myself.

[Lhunithiliel]

The Guild of Tolkienology is going to participate!

Our aim:

FOR THE HONOUR OF THE GUILD!

[Aulë]

Hmm, during a boring Whole Plant Physiology lecture today, I had a bit of time to come up up with some suggestions.

8 Posts maximum per debate (incl. Intro and Conclusion)
4 Team members
2 Posts per team member
1 Week (7 Days) timelimit for the debate, 1 week judging.
Alternating posts between each team, unless a 24 hour (48?) period has passed, in which they can have 2 posts in a row.
4 Judges (2 from each of the other two Guilds {unless more Guilds take part, in which case 1 judge per Guild}) and a Poll.


Now, should we have each round starting directly after each other (eg, Round 1: 7th May-14th May; Round 2 14th May-21st May) or have a week between rounds?
The first option would allow the tournament to run faster, but the co-ordinator and hosts would have to be running things like clockwork for this to work.
Also, should the topics be released before the Guild picks their team from their squad (which should be submitted beforehand remember)?
Another thought- should each Guild member be limited to a certain amount of debates, so that the Guild's 'depth' can be put to the test?

Thanks to Maedhros for taking up that position, I'm sure that you can participate in a few debates, but make you'll have to get someone to fill in for your position for the debates you take part in.
Your job will be to make sure that each host has chosen a good enough topic (All topics must be PMed to Maedhros, and approved before the debate starts). If the host can't think of a good enough topic, you can 'assist' them in thinking of a good one.

And one last thing- I feel that the tournament should be started by the 7th of May, otherwise we could be altering rules for weeks.

[YayGollum]

Wouldn't the week where people are judging give you people enough time to organize the next debate?

I would say ---> Yes, the topics should be tossed at everybody. That's a nice thing to do. I have no idea if you've PMed everyone in charge of all of these other guilds. I know that I still haven't gotten a PM about it. But then, maybe PMing the people in charge with the first topic would be good.

No, I don't think that certain members should only be allowed to be in so many debates. Some guilds might have only four people that could care less about debating and that would be an evil reason to keep them out of this.

[Nenya Evenstar]

First of all, great idea Pippin! Your last guidelines that you posted sound good to me.

Contrary to Yay, I would say that each member should be limited in the number of debates that they can participate in. I'm intruiged with the idea of "testing" the guild's depth and think that this is really the only plausible way to do that.

I think you should take a week in between each debate week and judging week (three weeks total) simply to give the judges a break before the next debate. If things go too quickly people may lose interest.

Their might be other things too, for example most members here have not read HOME series so it might worry them if references are used from HOME and Members who haven't read HOME might not be able to tackle them.Actually, all books are open. You don't have to actually read HoMe or any of the other books to debate from them (or against them). All you need is an electronic copy of the books and you'll be set. Spending hours in front of the computer searching for quotes is a wonderful way to spend the afternoon. :D

[Maedhros]

I do not agree at all with the debate structure. Restricting a member ability to reply is wrong to me. I would rather have shorter debates with fewer people than to have 2 posts per person.
I would be extremely dissapointed if the current format is the one used.

[Arvedui]

I agree with Maedhros on the restrictions on a persons post. Even more so if that restriction is included opening and final posts. My worry is that it may hinder all views from soming to the surface, and perhaps that a vital view will not turn up. Some topics may need more research than others, and with the proposed schedule, it may be that not all cn be done before the debate starts.
Second, I think ikt should be the various guilds who should decide who should participate in the debates. Some guilds have more debate-eager members than others. And since this is a tournament, I would prefer that the independant guilds should have the right to decide what is best for them.

Just my 2 cents...

BTW, a great idea!

[YayGollum]

Yay for support! If a certain guild wants it's depth tested, nobody's stopping them, right? Other guilds might just have four members that could care less about this thing. Why keep them out? Sounds evil to me. oh well.

Also, yes, I had been wondering about the length thing, but I wasn't sure if that was some crazy norm for debates that I didn't know about. Why only let people make two posts? You gots to let the thing start out superly civil, turn into more of a fun arguement, and end up with people trying to shape up and sound smart again and make final posts. Right?

[Ancalagon]

Yes, who ever came up with the 2 posts per person idea???

However, I think it would control the debate a little more rather than allow for spawling, incoherent, off-track debating styles and keep members focused on the subject matter at hand. In addition, it will make it easier for the judges to keep track of the debate and each persons perfomrance.
Not that I have any experience of debates, so i'll shut-up;)

[Maedhros]

Most official debates are restricted, in that there is usually a time limit.
They are restricted in time, not in number of posts per person.

[Ithrynluin]

Yes, restricting the number of posts per member is clearly a drawback. Debates should only be restricted time-wise.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Yes, restricting the number of posts per member is clearly a drawback. Debates should only be restricted time-wise.
7 days limit?!Isn't it too short time.We shouldn't forget that sometimes unexpected things happen and someone would not take part in a debate because of such things.Isn't it better 10 days limit?

[Maedhros]

I thought you might explain how post limit is different from time limit in such a way that makes one okay but not the other, rather than point out that they are different things.
For me it's simple really. An official debate has to have some restriction. A time restriction already restricts the number of posts. I might have different ideas depending on where the debate is at. If I have a limited number of post regardless of the length of the debate, I would be tied up with my ideas. (What if I wanted to rebute someone else post or come up with something different if the debate had still time?)
I don't see the need to have two restrictions at the same time.

[Lhunithiliel]

If I may...

I'd say that to restrict the debates in time - yes, but 1 week is too little time!

To restrict the number of the posts - this is a BAD idea!
You can never know what the opponents will come up with that your team should debate against. Otherwise, it seems as if one team prepares certain opinions and posts them in order... True and vivid debating is going to be lost!

I would NOT agree on limiting the number of the posts!

[Ancalagon]

Limiting the posts and the duration works for me and in truth will work easier for the judges who have to trawl through each answer. Consider the number of debates that will be had and the number of judges who will have to constantly review them! I don't know about you, but it takes long enough to read a single debate between 2 people and come up with a judgement, consider having to do this up to 8 times for teams of four aside...especially for those Guilds with only a few participating members. It is hard enough getting Judges at the best of times!

[YayGollum]

What's with the crazy judge thing? Why don't you just get a few people who don't mind reading all of your crazy debates? I've never had a problem with judging these things no matter how boring I thought the subject was. Or are most judges not like that? :confused:

[Maedhros]

Limiting the posts and the duration works for me and in truth will work easier for the judges who have to trawl through each answer. Consider the number of debates that will be had and the number of judges who will have to constantly review them!
How about fewer members and less time? Say 2 or 3 and a 4 day period.

[Nenya Evenstar]

How about fewer members and less time? Say 2 or 3 and a 4 day period.I'm not sure that very many people who are interested in debating would be able to debate if the debates are this short. I wouldn't be able to . . . I don't think I'd be able to keep up my other forum duties as well as debate.

[The_Swordmaster]

The Guild of the Dwarves would like to enter The 2003 TTF Debating Tournament.

[Aulë]

OK, we officially have 5 guilds now wanting to participate.
Periaur
Scholars
Ost-in-Edhil
Tolkienologists
Dwarves

Now, 6 Guilds would be slightly more preferable, as so a bye will not be required.
Anc, are the Time Lords interested in this?
YayG, likewise for the Outcasts.

Anyway, I feel that a 1 week time limit with unlimited posting would be the best option.

[Ancalagon]

I guess it would be prudent for you to post a link or contact the Guildmasters directly in order to make them aware that you are doing this...it's just a thought;) In addition, it would maybe be useful to do the same for those serious Guilds attempting to get status and currently reside in 'General' section of the Guilds and RPGs area of the forum. What do you think?

[Wonko The Sane]

I'd like to help.

[YayGollum]

Help with what? Anyways, Yay for unlimited posting for a week! That's official now, right? Also, Argh! I never noticed people in charge of guilds getting asked if they wanted to be in on this. I suggested that a while ago. You can't expect everybody to pay attention to your little post way over here. oh well. No, I don't think that the Outcasts will be in on this.

[FoolOfATook]

I can attest that the Guild of Tolkienology leadership had consented to this tournament before The Australian Formerly Known as Pippin made his first post in this thread.

Any thoughts on a date to to try to shoot for, in terms of getting this dance party a-dancing?

[The_Swordmaster]

I thought someone said it was gonna be in May.

[Nóm]

No, I don't think that the Outcasts will be in on this.

Well things have changed and the GOO are in! Add us to the list.
Woohoo! I will be debating for GOO too.

:D

[YayGollum]

Yes, Yay us! Now everything is nice and even and the only two guilds I could care at all about are in it. Yes, why have we not been hearing much from this Pippin_Took person for a while in here?

[The_Swordmaster]

Psst. *whispers to Yay* He changed his name to Aule remember.

*talks out loud* Can we be in two different guilds for the tournament. Because I know that Yay is supposed to be on the GoD team and also GoO's team.

[YayGollum]

superly loudly ---> Oh, I know. I'm just being evil. I still call plenty of people the names they started out with. They should be content with what they have. Why would they have started out with their first name if they didn't like it? oh well.

[FoolOfATook]

Can we be in two different guilds for the tournament.

I can't see any good reason for people to represent more than one Guild during the tournament. As far as I'm concerned, the answer is no.

[Wonko The Sane]

So we have to choose which guild we like best?
(Or worst depending on how we rate our debating skills) :)

[Aulë]

OK, the debates will be 1 week long, with 1 week voting afterwards. Each team shall consist of 4 debators.
The Host shall start the threads in the Home Guild's (first mentioned) Forum, and the Home Guild shall choose their stance (negative/positive).
The Host shall then choose 4 other Judges from different Guilds, and the Guild with the most votes out of 5 shall be victorious.
Maedhros shall be coming up with lots of topics for the debates, with plenty of suggestions from others I'm sure.
FoolOfATook is in charge, and shall make sure everything runs along nicely.

[Ancalagon]

And if you post horrendously long posts you won't get a response out of me...right Nenya;)

[Nenya Evenstar]

That's right . . . but you said I could. :D

So in other words, don't PM Anc asking if it's fine with him if you post a really long segement. He may not know exactly how long you're thinking. ;)

[Maedhros]

I will be participating in the first debate between Scholars and the Periaur. I will ask someone to come up with a topic for that debate, while I come up with a topic for the other two.

[Ithrynluin]

Aulë and FoaT, good job at organizing this 'thing' of epic proportions.;)

[YayGollum]

Huh. Why do some teams have about 27,000 people in them? I thought that we were all supposed to have four. Or am I just crazy and you changed the rules on me? oh well. just wondering. *starts posturing* Doesn't matter how many we're up again. The guild of Outcasts is the best! Boo for the evil Tolkienologist types! :eek: :rolleyes:

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by YayGollum
The guild of Outcasts is the best! Boo for the evil Tolkienologist types! :eek: :rolleyes:
Watch it, you ...creature! You are talking here to a High Elven Lord (Gil-Galad) ,a valiant Hobbit (Master Took), the most skilfull bowman that ever lived in Middle-earth (Beleg Strongbow), a Lady-elf (;) ), a prince of the Elves etc... etc...!
Who, do you think, you can scare by some "boo"?! :p :p :D :D :D

[Snaga]

*waves scimitar menacingly* I'm ready!!! I'll take you all on!:D

[Nenya Evenstar]

Yay, all those people won't debate at one time. The guildmembers will decide who debates on their teams and when.

[Inderjit S]

Will the winner Guild be endowed with any rewards? A big cash reward comes to mind.... or just the honour of winning the tournament, though the former would be preferable. What about individual awards? i.e best debater etc....

[Aulë]

I'm sure we could have an award ceremony at the end.
And as a reward, you can....I dunno

Maybe WM could give you a TTF hat? ;)

[YayGollum]

I wasn't trying to scare anyone by saying Boo! I was tossing some crazy opinion of something just like someone would if they were in some huge crowd that they couldn't be picked out of. Whoops! oh well. At least I don't insult people. :( :rolleyes: Anyways, got it. A certain four out of the 27,000 will go at a time. I like the idea of the hatses. And the awards ceremony. I never got to make a speech for getting that Mr. TTF title. :(

[Ancalagon]

I think rather than be known as 'The Best Debator' one should strive to be the 'Master Debator':)

Just say it to yourself 3 times really fast and you will be king of all;)

[Aulë]

*shakes head*

Only Anc could turn a Debating Tournament into a sick joke... ;)


OK, could the Scholars and Outcasts hurry up and submit a host to control the Outcast v Tolkienologists and Scholars v Periaur debates respectively, please?

[Beleg]

OK, could the Scholars and Outcasts hurry up and submit a host to control the Outcast v Tolkienologists and Scholars v Periaur debates respectively, please?

Err, how exactly will the Judges be selected?

[Aulë]

The host is to choose one from the three Guild who aren't in the debate or hosting. Those, along with the host and a poll shall be the 5 judges.

eg,
Outcasts vs. Tolkienologists (Host: Scholars)

In this case, the host from GoS will have to choose a judge from GoP, GoE/D and OiE.

[Bethelarien]

Aule, Glorfindel has agreed to debate on the GoE/GoD team, if you could add him, we'd all appreciate it.

[Aulë]

Done.

And the Tournament has now begun.
Nóm, ithrynluin and myself shall be hosting the first 3 debates.
Good luck to all.

[Maedhros]

I have send the topics to pms to Aulë and Foat. The topic between GoS and Periaur will be made by either Foat or the person that will host that debate.

[FoolOfATook]

Nom has the topic for the GoS-Periaur debate now, or at least, a draft of it, in case she has to re-write what for all I know is an awkardly phrased question that I wrote. ;)

[Wonko The Sane]

I'm interested in being a host and a judge should the opportunity present itself.

And yes...yes Aulë I promised I'd post in the debate, and I will tonight.

No more excuses now that I have UT. :)
Thanks btw.

;) And so far the debates are going quite well. Especially the one with that snaga1 fellow in it.
Quite impressive. ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Hey,our team for the debates become bigger and bigger.Here's the last list of our:
Tolkienologists
-Lhunithiliel
-FoolOfATook
-Anamatar
-Beleg_strongbow
-gate7ole
-Eriol
+Gil-Galad
+Finduilas
+Eol
+ Luthien Tunivel

please add the new names to the ofiicial list

[Aulë]

GG: Luthien Tunivel is already in the Guild of Elves/Dwarves team.

[Gil-Galad]

Are we talking about one and the same Luthien?She posted a message in our Guild and she wished to participate in the debates:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10938&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

I hope they are diffrent persons.If they aren't just don't include her in the list.I'll pm her and ask her too.Please do the same in case I'm offline these days.

[Aulë]

Yeah it's the same person.
You had better PM her about it.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Aulë
Yeah it's the same person.
You had better PM her about it.
oooooooo that's too sad.Well,I've got to pm her.:(

[baragund]

Are there enough volunteers for all of the debates to cover judging, making up questions and the like? I'd be happy to help if it's needed.

[FoolOfATook]

Any help making up questions or helping to judge is greatly appreciated.

[Snaga]

I just noticed this tournament goes on til SEPTEMBER! I'm exhausted after the first round! Better build up my stamina! *drinks orc-draught*

[Chymaera]

I should be able to judge most of the rounds.

Question: How exactly does the scoring work?
I looked at the standings and I don't know what they mean.

I have the W, L, D, and P figured but an explaination would be nice:)

[Beleg]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------TEAM P W L D VF VA VD PTS
Ost-in-Edhil 1 1 0 0 5 0 +5 3
Tolkienology 1 0 0 0 2.5 1.5 +1 0
Periaur 1 0 0 0 2 1 +1 0
Outcasts 1 0 0 0 1.5 2.5 -1 0
Scholar's 1 0 0 0 1 2 -1 0
GoD/GoE 1 0 1 0 0 0 -5 0--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What are "VF", "VA" "VD"?

[Chymaera]

Votes for
Votes against
Votes draw

but what about +/- and these half votes ??!!?

[Aulë]

Woops: probably should have explained that before.

P = Debates Played
W = Debates Won (3 points)
L = Debates Lost (0 points)
D = Debates Drawn (1 point)
VF = Votes For
VA = Votes Against
VD = Votes Difference
Pts = Points

The ranking are firstly determined by points. It two Guilds are tied on points, their position is determined by the VD. If they are still tied, the Guild with the most VF will be on top.
If it is still tied, the position will be determined on the head-to-head record between the Guilds.

Half points are courtesy of someone voting 'draw' in the Judging....;)

[Beleg]

If it is still tied, the position will be determined on the head-to-head record between the Guilds.

And If it is still a tie then?:p

[Aulë]

Then it would be determied through the total votes combined from the two head-to-head debates.
If it's still tied, they can debate again to determine the winner.

[Lhunithiliel]

Eeeerrrr...Excuse me... Where can I find this table withe the votes?
:confused:

[Beleg]

On the very first page of the thread.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
On the very first page of the thread.
WHICH thread? :eek:

[Beleg]

Infact,

Here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=308653#post308653)

[Eriol]

er... why isn't 2.5 vs. 1.5 considered a win? why do the Tolkienologists only have one point?

Now that the selfish question has been asked, should not the total number of votes per debate be equal? The Tolkienologists vs. Outcasts has four, while the Ost-in-Edhil vs. Dwarves/Elves has five. Is not this going to mess with tie-breaking?

[Lhunithiliel]

And to continue what Eriol said:

WHY DO THE TOLKIENOLOGISTS HAVE ONLY ONE POINT??????? :p
******

And I DO think that each debate should be judged by either 3 or 5 judges. "4" means that there is always the possibility of a situation of 2 - vs. - 2!
:eek:
******

WHO is hosting the Round 2 for the debate GoT vs. GoP ?

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
And to continue what Eriol said:

WHY DO THE TOLKIENOLOGISTS HAVE ONLY ONE POINT??????? :p
******

And I DO think that each debate should be judged by either 3 or 5 judges. "4" means that there is always the possibility of a situation of 2 - vs. - 2!
:eek:
******

WHO is hosting the Round 2 for the debate GoT vs. GoP ? Calm yourself Lhun, The polls are not finished yet and the result of the poll is the fifth vote. Trust Aulë

and our Norwegian friend Arvedui is hosting your next debate:D

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh! Thank you, Chymaera ! :D

So......Arvedui... Mmmm... We could not have wished for a better host! :D

[Eriol]

er... but the GoT vs. GoO had only four judges, as can be seen in the judging thread...

[Aulë]

*sigh*

Calm down peoples.
I have everything under control.


er... but the GoT vs. GoO had only four judges, as can be seen in the judging thread...


There are 4 judges, and a poll (=5 votes)


er... why isn't 2.5 vs. 1.5 considered a win? why do the Tolkienologists only have one point?

The poll hasn't finished in that debate yet, so no points have been issued. The 'point' you see is in fact the 'Votes Difference'.

[Eriol]

Ok, thanks :D

[Gil-Galad]

It will be pretty difficult to decide who is the winner.I just hope the victory will be ours,cause we do our best,but actually who wants to lose?

[YayGollum]

What kind of good reason for a win is that, Gil-Galad person? Or do you just think that your little debate team thing is the only one that really cares about trying their best? just wondering.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by YayGollum
What kind of good reason for a win is that, Gil-Galad person? Or do you just think that your little debate team thing is the only one that really cares about trying their best? just wondering.
you call our team "little"?!!??!You call Eriol and Gate7ole "little".Yay person,you are far far away from the truth.

[Ithrynluin]

There has been much talk whether the poll option in the debate judgement threads are fair. Mostly the people from both teams vote for themselves without really reading the debates - and thus the poll may unjustly influence the result of the debate. Would it perhaps be a better idea to have 5 judges instead of 4 judges + a poll?

This has been discussed on pages 5 and 6 of this thread: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11729&perpage=15&pagenumber=5

[Nóm]

Mostly the people from both teams vote for themselves without really reading the debates...
But can we be sure this is the case? How many people would do that? Not many, I think.

Anyone who votes without reading the debates - you are pathetic, and I suspect you know it.

Though I must say it does make me wonder, what half of the six votes that GoT got throughout the last week came just today after one of their members posted asking others to go vote.

Anyhow, I am not too crazy about polls counting as a vote equal to the judges, but I don't think it is a completely bad idea.

I think it might be better if instead of using a poll, people would have to post their choice. It may put off would-be cheaters, or maybe not.

So far as I know only Eriol is strongly against using polls as we have been using them so far in the tournament. But if others think this way to, then maybe we should quit using them that way.

[Gil-Galad]

I too agree with Eriol.I don't see any need of polls when we have judges.And also I like the idea of 5 judges which he suggested.

[Eriol]

You can wonder about this last minute votes, Nóm... and this is precisely the bad result of this rule. That it makes you wonder.

This is evil.

I did not request that people vote for my team, only that they should vote. Most people (me included) were not aware that the polls counted as a vote. (Bad publicizing of this rule was also a pity). Should the result -- any result -- be decided by the people's ignorance of the rules? Mind you, not the team members' or the judges' ignorance of the rules, but the general people's ignorance.

Why should we suspect that people are pathetic? Why should we give them the opportunity to be pathetic?

This rule could be amended, even if it is kept. I made some suggestions in my Guild's thread -- closing the polls before the judges vote, or using the polls only as a tie-breaker...

But as it is now we have people like you wondering -- with reason! -- whether or not other people are pathetic.

:(

[Nóm]

Well Eriol, I'll tell you what I did not like about your post:
It seems the polls in the debates contribute to the final decision(against my best judgement). So we need every Tolkienologist voting! The thread of the debate is in the Outcast's guild, as is the judging thread. Go there and vote!

"We need every Tolkienologists voting!" Now I just wonder why you didn't come to this thread and announce that if you are so concerned about being fair, but did it in GoT.


I do see that the Host of the GoT vs GoO debate did not say that the poll would be a vote.

The other two debates hosted by Aule, and me did though.

But now I think everyone knows better.

[Gil-Galad]

Just imagine what will happen if the judges decide one thing but due to the posts of some members who just vote for their Guild,the result become different.For example the judges say that team "A" is better,but 10 people from team "B" 's Guild vote for their team and they win.Is that fair?
I think we do need some chages of the rules.

[Eriol]

? I did not understand that... didn't we need every Tolkienologist's vote?

(though I said every Tolkienologist voting -- there is a difference, that your rephrasing passes over. Why?)

Is not the objective of a debate, to win? I asked the tournament organizer about the rules, and he explained them to me. Did I break any?

As you see, you did not like an action of mine -- because of the evil rule!

This strife could have been avoided.

(Even if the host said it, I think I would have been justified in telling the members of my Guild about the rules in a thread inside our guild).

Do you think that a big announcement at the beginning of the week, telling about the rules and inviting people to vote, would be better? So do I. But I learned of this rule now.

I didn't really like posting that - but the rules required it. As I see it (and believe me I have lots of experience) in any competition the contestants must strive to their utmost to win within the rules -- or it becomes meaningless. If I refrain from doing what I did because I like the Outcasts, and do it against another guild because I don't like it, the competition would become a farce.

We are faced with the unenviable position that whatever we do, some people would criticize us. (Don't you think I would be -- harshly -- criticized in my Guild if, after knowing about the rules, I did not divulge them?)

And all of this due to the avoidable evilness of this particular rule, which was magnified in this particular debate. I hope we still have the time to amend it before other debates.

EDIT: As to why I did not question the rule itself earlier, I never question the rules of any contest. The rules are the rules. Up to some hours ago I was firmly convinced that the shortcomings of this particular rule were here to stay, until the Tournament is over, for I never heard of any tournament, of any kind, in which the rules change after it is begun. It was only due to ithrynluin's participation in the thread at our Guild that I was convinced that the rule could actually be changed.

It is sad that you point fingers at me... and it is a result of that rule. My actions were forced, within the rules as they were explained to me by Aulë. I had no choice -- I hope you realize that. I could even open a thread in my guild shouting for people to vote as quickly as possible, even without reading the debate, without breaking any rules. I didn't do that because it would leave me with a terrible taste in the mouth. But what is to prevent any one from doing it? Do you think that would be evil? I agree. So why must we put up with a rule that practically begs for it?

Then again, if you don't realize my actions were forced, there's nothing much I can do about it...

:(

[Nóm]

Just reporting the results of the debate between GoS and Periaur for Round 1.

Three judges as well as the poll are in favour of Periaur, while one judge voted for the GoS.

***************************

Maybe starting with the next round we can do with a fifth judge instead of the poll?


That rephrasing was accident, Eriol. I went back to my post and editted it, so now it is correct.

[YayGollum]

Gil-Galad person, when I stuck the word 'little' in there, I wasn't trying to be especially evil. Lighten up, dude. I'm just being informal. oh well. Should I have posted in some Outcast thread to tell them to vote for us in that crazy little poll? I didn't know. sorry about that. Would we just have to wait and see how these ruleses turn out or should I hurry up get Outcasts to vote for us? :eek: :rolleyes:

[Aulë]

Report: The results of the Ost-in-Edhil vs. GoE/D debate is 5 votes to the OiE and none to the GoE/D.

I must say that I was extremely dissapointed in Eriol for asking his fellow Guild members to vote for the Tolkienologists. 'Unsportsman-like' is what came to mind...
The Poll can work if people stay honest and only vote for what they believe after reading the debate.
But this isn't a perfect world, and some people will try and exploit the system. So I guess an alternative way of getting the 5th vote must be attained.

The problem with chosing a 5th judge is where to choose them from.
Currently, the 4 judges represent the 4 Tournament Guilds who are not participating in that particular debate.
Where could we choose the 5th from?
Perhaps someone who isn't in one of the Tournament Guilds?
Or perhaps we could choose someone who isn't in any Guild (eg, ithrynluin?) to judge in every debate.

Polls do have their benefits (representing a wider segment of the forum), but I guess their cons outweigh the pros.

And GG: Settle your ego down a tad ;)
The Tolkienologists are currently 3rd on the ladder, so I wouldn't be self-proclaiming your Guild as the best as of yet...;)
(That right currently belongs to the OiE...)

[YayGollum]

Okay. Looks like the answer to my first question was ---> No. You would be an evil and unsportsman type person! What about that second question? Are you not one of the people in charge of this thing?

[Nóm]

How about the host picks the fifth judge from either his/her own guild or no guild?

[Aulë]

Are the Mods able to keep track of who votes in the Polls?
Because if they do, we could make a rule that no one from the two opposing Guilds can vote.

And YayG: Since the Tolkienologists did it, I don't see why you can't.
There are only 9 hours left in the poll though, so you'd better be quick.

[YayGollum]

Hm. Well, since it looks like you people might be changing rules around, I would think that it would be pure evil to let this round be. I'm not trying to be an especially annoying spoilsport type, but oh well. Fair is fair. Anyways, yes, sir. I will now become what you happen to think is unsportsmanlike. :rolleyes:

[Arvedui]

Does the fifth judge have to be a poll?
I tend to side with Nóm here.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Aulë
I must say that I was extremely dissapointed in Eriol for asking his fellow Guild members to vote for the Tolkienologists. 'Unsportsman-like' is what came to mind...


We should all get off of Eriol's back because he didn't do anything wrong if you look deeper into it. I am not disappointed in him, I am disappointed in the way a poll can be abused. Would it have been better if a member of a certain guild simply PMed all its members and asked each and every one of them to vote and ensure a vote for their guild? That would have been a much sneakier alternative and Eriol was completely honest.

Where could we choose the 5th from?
Perhaps someone who isn't in one of the Tournament Guilds?
Or perhaps we could choose someone who isn't in any Guild (eg, ithrynluin?) to judge in every debate.


Yes, someone who is not in one of the Tournament guilds should be the 5th. (I recently quit a guild)

The GoT vs GoO debate outcome should arrive shortly.

Are the Mods able to keep track of who votes in the Polls?
Because if they do, we could make a rule that no one from the two opposing Guilds can vote.


No they are not. Only WM can do that, and he is far too busy for us to trouble him with this IMO.

[Arvedui]

There are several questions that can be raised if we continue to distrust one another this way:

Hypothesis:
If I am judging the Tolkienologists in the last round, and I know they are leading over the OiE with one point, could you trust me to not judge in favour of OiE, but rather judge honestly?
What if I judged honestly, but still against the Tolkienologists? Would you believe that I judged that way, or would you think I was tactical?

One other thing:
It is a problem finding judges, as long as a number of people are members of more than one guild. I don't think I need to explain why...

I have because of that, asked people that are not members of any guilds and whose judgement I trust, to help me out in the upcoming round. Let's see how that works out, shall we?

[Aulë]

Umm...
I'd appreciate it if you followed the same rules as everyone else, Arvedui...

There is always a chance of corruption in judging, but try and have faith in the members of TTF. I hope that people don't put too much importance of winning in favour of fair-play.

If it concerns you that much, try and choose members from the appropriate Guilds who you are confidant will judge with honesty.

[Arvedui]

What rules exactly?

And speaking for myself, I do not have any problems with this. Read the first two lines in my previous post...

Do you honestly think that it will be a problem if two of the judges are non-guild members?

[Lhunithiliel]

I have carefully read this discussion and this is what I have to say:

First: I HAVE READ THE WHOLE debate before I voted!!!!
Didn't I have the right to do so?

Second In order to avoid further misunderstandings, I strongly suggest a 5-th judge! Who? - someone who is NOT a Guildsman from the debating guilds. We do have people for this.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Aulë
I must say that I was extremely dissapointed in Eriol for asking his fellow Guild members to vote for the Tolkienologists. 'Unsportsman-like' is what came to mind...
The Poll can work if people stay honest and only vote for what they believe after reading the debate.
But this isn't a perfect world, and some people will try and exploit the system. So I guess an alternative way of getting the 5th vote must be attained.


Sigh...

I did not, repeat did not, ask anyone to vote for my Guild. I asked people of my guild to vote. Is it only me that can see the difference?

And what if I did?? That is the point. I would be breaking no rules. "Unwritten rules of sportsmanship" are a recipe for confusion -- as we see.

If we were 10 votes behind the Outcasts, I would feel it my duty to get 11 votes -- from Tolkienologists or not. Shocking as it may appear to you, this is what this rule forces upon us. I find it shocking also. But I can't go against the rules, folks. I have to strive for a win. THIS is the only unwrtten rule of unsportsmanship -- everybody tries their best to win, within the rules.

What is good sportsmanship for one is bad sportsmanship to others. (As YayGollum has just pinpointed)

(As I said, I have lots of experience in this matters. I have played competitive bridge in the national and international arena. Please believe me when I say unwritten rules are bad).

I ask you, Aulë, what you would have done in my position. Lhunithiliel, our Guild-master, was unaware of that rule! Should I stay quiet and see my Guild lose because the rules were not well explained? Would that be "good sportsmanship"? As Nóm pointed out, the host (ithrynluin) forgot to make this clear in the judging thread. I was made aware of it by Chymaera's post in this thread earlier -- two days ago! So this is five days of people who have not voted because they thought you could not vote for their own Guild. Is this "fair", "good sportsmanship"?

I guess I should have sent a lot of PM's and spared me this trouble. This would not be so hard, would it? I have a list of Guild-members.

What I don't understand is people defending this rule when these past developments show beyond any doubt that it can lead to strife. Would it not be better to change it, somehow? Has anybody thought about alternatives?

I feel strongly that the polls should be closed before the judges vote, whatever else we do with the rules.

(Oh. I see ithrynluin has addressed the PM alternative).

Aulë, check the link provided by ithrynluin earlier on this thread. The "Thou shalt not vote for your own Guild" was proposed, as well as other alternatives.

[Beleg]

I think that the fifth judge should be a person not related with any guild.
Many people come to mind.
Ithrlyuin for example.
Lanty
Tar-Elenion...
Maerbenn...
Cian

and many other scholars who are more then capable to judge debates based on Tolkien's work.

Atleast this is a workable idea..

[Nóm]

The host is to choose one from the three Guild who aren't in the debate or hosting. Those, along with the host and a poll shall be the 5 judges.
Aule posted that in this thread on the 14th, before the tournament even started.

Just thought it deserved to be mentioned.

Also, I was not aware that people had thought all along that they were not allowed to vote for their own guild? I wonder who thought that. I mean, if they didn't think the poll counted as a vote, then why not? But even if they did know it counted as vote, why not? Why assume they can not vote without asking to be sure?

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
I think that the fifth judge should be a person not related with any guild.
Many people come to mind.
Ithrlyuin for example.
Lanty
Rangerdave...
Tar-Elenion...
Maerbenn...

and many other scholars who are more then capable to judge debates based on Tolkien's work.

Atleast this is a workable idea..
Last time I checked, RD was a member of 'The Shady Pines' (OiE)
*Checking again*
Yes, still is. Together with Tar-Elenion ;)

[Beleg]

Yes, still is. Together with Tar-Elenion

Err, I though that only those people who had checked In in the Checkin' In thread were OIE members?

Oh well..

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Nóm
Aule posted that in this thread on the 14th, before the tournament even started.

Just thought it deserved to be mentioned.

Also, I was not aware that people had thought all along that they were not allowed to vote for their own guild? I wonder who thought that. I mean, if they didn't think the poll counted as a vote, then why not? But even if they did know it counted as vote, why not? Why assume they can not vote without asking to be sure?

Lhunithiliel thought that she could not vote.

Of course, you may think I'm lying.

Also, not everyone in the Guild read this thread. I didn't say the rule was made up on the spot, only that it was not explained to the Guild.

But you may think I'm lying.

...

What a great rule.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Nóm
Also, I was not aware that people had thought all along that they were not allowed to vote for their own guild? I wonder who thought that. I mean, if they didn't think the poll counted as a vote, then why not? But even if they did know it counted as vote, why not? Why assume they can not vote without asking to be sure?
Nom, my dear, I AM one of these!

I was carefully reading every post on the debate while it was still going on and I formed up my own opinion OBJECTIVELY who was winning.
Then I traced the judges' opinions and I saw people commenting...but I personally NOT FOR ONE MOMENT thought that I or any other Tolkienologist was allowed to vote" for" or "against " cause it was OUR guild that had been in this debate.

And all of a sudden, I understood that a poll-result can change the outcome!:eek:

So, I did vote and so did Beleg...

Tell me, DOES ANYBODY SUSPECT that I HAD NOT READ THE DEBATE before voting????????????

DOES ANYBODY THINK THAT I VOTED JUST BLINDLY SUPPORTING MY GUILD??????????????

'Cause if anyone does, then I'd wish to say that this is NOT true and it is NOT the case with Beleg either!!!!!

I appreciate highly the efforts of BOTH teams, but I was much more convinced by the Tolkienologists - THIS IS THE SIMPLE TRUTH!!!!

So, I don't see why you people are so much frustrated by Eriol's announcement!!!! :eek: :eek:

He did the right thing to inform us on the situation!

And I do REPEAT: If we are to face no more discussions like the present, a 5-th judge is a MUST!

A poll is OK, but it should be either OUTSIDE the Judgement or CLOSED before the Judges' decisions.

[Nóm]

I would not expect everyone in GoT to read this thread, but I would also not expect for the ntire Guild to be PM'd by Aule about it.

I think the having Beleg, Eriol, and Gil-Galad as regular posters in this thread is a safe as way as any to be sure that their guild knows what's up. Especially since it was one of those three who asked about judging and was answered in the next post by Aule.

To me this is sufficient. I will beleive that some may not have known they could vote for their own guild, but I think they had ample chance to have known it.

Also, if so many thought it was only to be judged by the 4 indviduals, why didn't more ask, or someone ask straight away about the fact that the number of judges was even?

Also, a ocuple GoT people judged debates in threads that did state clearly that the poll would count as a vote equal to that of the judges.

I am not saying some of GoT was not ignorant.... I am saying I do not think this was anyones fault but their own.

[Eriol]

My "regular posting on this thread" began 3 days ago, unless I am mistaken.

(I'm sure Nóm will check that :( )

Therefore, the Tolkienologists are to be blamed for their ignorance -- and no efforts, by me or by any one, can be taken to remedy that ignorance.

...

What a great rule.

(No wonder you thought the Valar were fair :D)

[Ancalagon]

Personally I think the poll and current format for judging should remain as it is. When all is said and done, polls will swing both ways and by the time the last debate is held in the forum, everyone will have some judgment in the polls work in their favour, irrespective of how it was acheived.

It would be pointless trying to introduce a change when the first round is already complete. Judging through a poll is generally always a 'favourite' option, so if a guild supports their team through a poll, so what?! Swings and roundabouts I say, swings and roundabouts;)

[Beleg]

And If at all anyone was guilty of spurring people in voting in favor of Tolkienologists then It was me and I appologise for it. It was done at the heat of the occasion and at the spur of the moment.
I admit I was wrong in doing that.

[Lhunithiliel]

Nom, Nom, Nom....:rolleyes:

You do not expect everybody to spend ALL the time in the forum, do you! ;) :D

So, don't blame me on this! :eek:

[Ancalagon]

I repeat what I said in my earlier post.

Posting a vote on a poll is a matter of conscience, if you are simply doing it to support your own team, fair play to you, it is good to see you are supporting your guild. If you are posting because you read the debate and you think one side was better, then all is good in the world. Now, if only poor Beth had support from her own Guild in the debate in the form that they voted her in the poll, I certainly would not have minded, actually I would have been chuffed that they finally found some element of teamwork and put it into action;)

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
I repeat what I said in my earlier post.

Posting a vote on a poll is a matter of conscience, if you are simply doing it to support your own team, fair play to you, it is good to see you are supporting your guild. If you are posting because you read the debate and you think one side was better, then all is good in the world. Now, if only poor Beth had support from her own Guild in the debate in the form that they voted her in the poll, I certainly would not have minded, actually I would have been chuffed that they finally found some element of teamwork and put it into action;)

I agree. The main problem is not the poll rule, but the "unwritten rule" that Thou Shalt Not Encourage People to Vote for Your Guild. (Even though I did not do so in writing, I will not hide behind my phrasing of it. It is fairly obvious to everyone that my intention was to garner votes for my side. We are not children; I did not post a clarification of the rules in the Outcast's Guild, after all.)

At least I am positive that Beleg and Lhunithiliel, who had not voted, did read the debate and voted with their consciences -- clouded, perhaps, by their Guild affiliations, but who can avoid that?? How can we address that? The point is that they voted after reading the debate, and not in ignorance.

This rule can -- obviously -- be unfair for the smaller guilds. But it is at least a written, clear, rule. What I don't like are unwritten rules that no one can follow, since they are unwritten. As I said, anything I did in my position was open to criticism. If I did not speak I would be playing against my own guild.

Now I have Nóm mad at me because I explained the rules in my Guild; Aulë thinking I was "unsportsmanlike"; etc. etc.

All reasonable, all understandable. But all avoidable.

I don't like it. I'd rather have an amendment in the rules saying that the polls are closed before the judges vote. I don't think this would be a violation of the prior rules, only an addition. And, OF COURSE, it would have to be accepted by every Guild in the Tournament.

I agree with you that it is unheard of that rules should be changed after the Tournament starts, Ancalagon. That is why my first thoughts on these matters were expressed privately to Aulë, and then in a thread inside my Guild. It was only due to the favorable response of ithrynluin, a neutral, that I thought it might have a chance of being changed.

I still think it unlikely... but I hope this situation can at least be used for an improvement of the rules in the next Tournament.

[YayGollum]

Scary stuff! People have been offended! I'd like to defend the Confusticated lady, but I don't really see how she offended anyone. oh well. Solution ---> If the rules get changed and we get a fifth judge or something, we should let a fifth judge go over the debate we're talking about and have everything over with. This would make sure that all of the rounds are treated fairly. If the rules aren't going to be changed, all we gots to do is drop it.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Scary stuff! People have been offended! I'd like to defend the Confusticated lady, but I don't really see how she offended anyone. oh well. Solution ---> If the rules get changed and we get a fifth judge or something, we should let a fifth judge go over the debate we're talking about and have everything over with. This would make sure that all of the rounds are treated fairly. If the rules aren't going to be changed, all we gots to do is drop it.

I agree, completely.

[Ithrynluin]

The results of Round 1 for the GoO - GoT debate are:

The Tolkienologists - 2 votes
The Outcasts - 1 vote
Draw - 2 votes

The results are in favour of the GoT, though it was a close one. Well done!

[Lhunithiliel]

Finally!!!!!!

And good news! :D

[Gil-Galad]

Is that the final result?

By the way I want to say that the rules MUST be changed.I can't accept the fact that the winner depends on somebody's choice who hasn't read and the debate,hasn't thought about it.I would say that is a mockery with all participants' works.Why do we have judges?!!!I think they are the persons who have to decide.If it is not so then why we have judges?
So I think that there should be 5 judges and the result should depend on them.The others' opinion can be just part of the whole thread concerning the final result.

[YayGollum]

Well, it looks like we'll have to wait for the big and scary person in charge to decide if rules will be changed or not. oh well. Yay for people agreeing!

[Ithrynluin]

A poll should provide some general feedback...

I'm more in favour of having 5 judges.

[Elendil3119]

I also am in favor of five judges. It would cause less confusion and avoid any problems like this in the future. There are really no negatives to this that I can see.

[Eriol]

I don't know how to vote on this, because I am not really against the polls in itself :eek:. The problem lies in the polls' ability to decide the voting, as I see it. This is conducive to campaigning, and perhaps other practices even more mischievous; like plotting to cast your vote at the last hour of the poll to throw your opponents off balance (many people may refrain from voting for their own guild if they think the result is decided, only to be surprised by a last-minute surge of voters against).

These practices are not frowned upon in any means by the present rules -- but we have seen that they they are not well regarded by the members (including myself).

Therefore, either closing the polls before any judge votes; or using the "poll vote" only as a tie-breaker; would suffice, as I see it.

The 5 judges solution is not bad, either. The 5th judge could come from a non-Guild member, I think we can find some.

In any way I don't think that a poll could change the rules without the acquiescence of all Guilds. And I think that changing the rules from now on would be hard on the first debates. That is why the "intermediate solutions" that depend on the timing of the polls and of the judges, without breaking any rule presently at work, have my sympathy. Downgrading the poll vote to a tie-breaker position would not harm the first debates, either.

[Lhunithiliel]

I am all for 5 judges and no polls.
I'd also of course accept that people may have the chance of expressing their opinions, but opinons ONLY.

[YayGollum]

Makes all kinds of sense to me. That's how I'd have done it in the beginning. Five judges. No need to worry about a tie.

[Arvedui]

I'm all for the idea of five judges. But I am not sure if it would be right to change it now. I propose that we stick with the present judging throughout the Tournament, and go for five judges for the next Tournament (2004).

[Elendil3119]

Why not change it now? I don't forsee that there would be any series problems or disruptions to the Tournament by changing this rule right now. Or at least for Round 3...

[Gil-Galad]

FIVE JUDGES!
Aulde,would you please add Jesse to our team of Tolkienologists?And Finrod too.
We have plenty of volunteers to participate in the tournament.:)

[Aulë]

OK, the majority of members think that there should be 5 judges.
So that will be the process from now on.

To make things fair, I ask for the 1st Round hosts to select a 'Neutral Judge' to replace the poll's vote in their debate.

[Bethelarien]

And add my good friend Scatha to the GoE/D debate team. Hallelujah.

[Scatha]

My pleasure, Beth, time you got some help in there. :D

[Gil-Galad]

Aule,would you please add Lantarion to the Guild of Tolkienology's team?:)

[Eriol]

I invite all guilds taking place in the Tournament to take a look at what's happening here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=323432#post323432) and declare their opinions, since it seems Aulë is firmly determined to not consult with you.

[Aulë]

Eriol?
Why must you question my every move?

What I say, goes.:mad:
Everyone who I have spoken to agrees with this policy.
If the Tolkienologists are going to start whinging because they realise that their plan (to remove the poll and replace it with a Neutral judge) might backfire on them, then I will completely ignore you.

[Eriol]

Not every move, Aulë, just this one. You are wrong. You are being unfair. I consider a lot of people here to be my friends, and you are one of them. This is why I'm pointing this out to you -- again.

You are wrong.

This has nothing to do with the debate itself, as I have made abundantly clear. WE WANT THE FIFTH JUDGE. It is you who are drawing this picture that we are afraid. Afraid? Of a debate? It is not the end of the world to lose a debate, Aulë. However, to be so blatantly unfair -- and proud of it -- is much more worrisome.

What you say goes? So that the Periaur can change the topic if they don't like it?

It doesn't work like that, Aulë. I'm sorry to have to point this out to you -- you should know it by now.

Why, pray tell, WHY is it so hard to get assent from every Guild?

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Eriol
What you say goes? So that the Periaur can change the topic if they don't like it?


We didn't like the last topic, but I didn't abuse my powers and force Arvedui to change it...

I am just saving myself the trouble of asking every Guild.
And I'm NOT going to have a Tournament where the 1st Round is different from the other 9.

[Eriol]

Thanks for your mercy, mighty Tournament Vala.

:rolleyes:

[Aulë]

O shush. :p
You only have to put up with me for a few more hours. FoaT shall then be the Coordinator.
THEN you shall know the true meaning of an Iron Fist ;)

[Eriol]

If that means that FoaT will consult with every Guild, then I'm pleased.

:D ;)

[Elendil3119]

I agree with Aulë here. There is no reason NOT to have a 5th judge put in place of the poll for the 1st Round. It won't cause any serious problems, and it's not a big deal. Not something worth losing sleep over, Eriol...:rolleyes: :p

[Eriol]

Eriol agrees with the fifth judge

Eriol is in favor of the new rule

(Should I make this my signature?)

My point is not about the content of the rule, it is that rules can't be changed without the agreement of every Guild. If a Guild thinks the new rule is not good (which is not the case of the GoT), it can hold the other Guilds to the previously agreed rules -- and IT WILL BE RIGHT.

So, why not go through the big trouble of asking for every Guild's assent?

In fact we are just doing that now. I suppose the other Guilds will look at this controversy and declare their opinions.

See Aulë, no bother at all :)

EDIT: I just sent a PM to Lhunithiliel asking her to post an official statement from the Guild of Tolkienologists here regarding the change in the rule.

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh,boy! *sighs*:rolleyes:
Boys, what's this all about?!

The Guild of Tolkienology WAS the one to raise the issue and Aule, you have consented to it and as I have seen, 5-th judges have been appointed to all the debates in Round 2... RIGHT?... RIGHT??????????
Then, I just fail to see the problem!:confused:

Anyway, to make it even clearer,

THE GUILD OF TOLKIENOLOGY SOLEMNLY DECLARES AND STATES THAT WE DO AGREE ON HAVING A 5-th JUDGE FOR EVERY AND EACH ON-GOING AND EVERY AND EACH FURTHER DEBATES

This we think is fair and will save the Tournament from any possible misunderstandings ...I hope :rolleyes:

Case settled? ;) :D

I most kindly invite the Guild Masters of the other debating guilds to make a simillar statment as to close this case and return to the imortant and/or more pleasant work - debating and HAVING FUN! :)

[Eriol]

Having fun... I have a dim memory of that... yes, that would be nice.

:D

Aulë, this is for your own protection. If any guild in the future decides to disagree with the rule it would create a big mess for you. It wouldbe very hard to say that this hypothetical Guild is in the wrong, if it simply sticks with the agreed rules. It is better to get their assent now.

Thanks, Lhun...

Trust me, Aulë -- a small bother today can save a big complication in the future.

[Lhunithiliel]

I AM TIRED OF HAVING TO FIGHT DISHONESTY AND ARROGANCE
This debate has had so many problems that the last one was the "last drop" in the cup of my patience!

Originally posted by Arvedui
The debate round 2, does not close until Wednesday, June 11th, at 14:00 PM (GMT).
It was MOST clearly stated!!!
And all of a sudden the debate thread is closed for no further replies! :eek:

I want to ask:

WILL THERE BE AT LEAST ONE THING RIGHT ABOUT THIS DEBATE??????!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad:

[Aulë]

Lhun
Why is it that whenever I see you post in this thread, a huge arguement develops?

The debate closed 5 hours ago, as was stated a long time ago.
I checked Arvedui's 'annoucement' but it seems that he only informs the GoT.
The GoP were NOT told of any extention.
We asked, and were denied by Arvedui.

Furthermore, as Tournament Coordinator, I should have been informed of such an extention.
If you read the rules of the Tournament, you'd see that the debate closes exactly 7 days after the opening post.
That was 5 hours ago.

I think that Arvedui just miscalculated the closing time whilst converting to GMT.

Both teams have posted their closing statements, and I believe that the debate is finished.
Now- On with the judging.

[Lhunithiliel]

Aule, why come that whenever it comes to defend YOUR wishes and YOUR rights you lose memory and decency!?!

It is NOT me who causes problems!
I hate scandals but more I hate dishonesty!
I checked Arvedui's 'annoucement' but it seems that he only informs the GoT.
What is this? Of course ! Arvedui is the host and of course he is the one who is counting the hours until the dead-line of the debate. Of course he must inform us!
So, what is so confusing to you about thsi information?
It is NOT some exceptional extension!
Exceptions, whatever, were made quite a few ..and NOT by the GoT!

We asked, and were denied by Arvedui.
What did you ask and what were you denied about? Explain yourself, if you please!

The debate is NOT over!

And if you wish to preserve the dignity of the title you are boasting around with - a "Tournament Coordinator", you should behave like one!
You have organized a wonderful activity at TTF!
Don't spoil it now!

[Aulë]

I hate scandals but more I hate dishonesty!
I do not like you tone one bit, Lhun.
I have NEVER been dishonest in this Tournament, and I am angered to think that you are accusing me of it. :mad:

What did you ask and what were you denied about? Explain yourself, if you please!

Here is the post: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=321805#post321805

What is this? Of course ! Arvedui is the host and of course he is the one who is counting the hours until the dead-line of the debate. Of course he must inform us!
So, what is so confusing to you about thsi information?
It is NOT some exceptional extension!
Exceptions, whatever, were made quite a few ..and NOT by the GoT!

He may inform you, but it would help if he informed the other party too....
As the debate drew to a close, the entire Periaur team had the belief that it was closing 7 days after MM's opening post. Also, Eol and Anamatar had the same belief.

And no 'exceptions' were given to the Periaur. (In fact, I can't think of any)

The debate is NOT over!
Yes, yes it is.

And if you wish to preserve the dignity of the title you are boasting around with - a "Tournament Coordinator", you should behave like one!
You have organized a wonderful activity at TTF!
Don't spoil it now!
I am behaving like one, it's just that one particular Guild is causing trouble.
Don't tempt me to remove them from the Tournament.:mad:

[Arvedui]

Now I am getting rather angry.

This was posted IN THE DEBATE THREAD, AFTER THE BRAWL STARTED, BUT BEFORE THAT THREAD WAS SPLIT IN TWO!!!!!!

That thread can be found here! (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12024)

I don't know how to put in those fancy post-id numbers, so you will have to scroll down the first page. It is number three from bottom.

Please register that the first three to post after this one was Lhunitiliel, Niniel and Aulë.

The announcement was made in the Debate thread. Members of both teams posted in that same thread, shortly after the announcement.

What more can I possibly do?

[Aulë]

Umm...
What timezone is that for?

And why is there an 'entension'?

It mustn't have been too well publicized, since 6 (and possibly 7) of the 8 debaters thought it closed at the initial closing time.

[Arvedui]

That timezone is GMT.

And the extension is for no other purpose than it is the one I set as the host for the debate.

But: I can clearly see in the debate thread a post beginning with
Closing post for the Guild of Tolkienology
and a closing post for the Guild of Periaur.

So this leaves me with a question: Is a closing post not a closing post? Lhun?

[Lhunithiliel]

I am sorry, Arvedui, but after the amazing "tactics" of the Periaur to post theitr arguments at the last hours of the debate, I think I have the right to post my counter-arguments.
Besides, as it was clearly announced, the debate does NOT finish until 14:00 Wednesday and at the moment I'm writing the present I understand that I there is still time to post my closing post!

The post you refer to was a result from the misleading information that the debate-time was running out.

I do not consider it so!

[Nóm]

Ah... what happend?

Did a host accidently post the incorrect ending time for the debate?

And now that Aule closed it at the correct time (correct because all debates in this tournament are to last exactly seven days), some people think there is dishonesty?

Closing statements by both Guilds were in though, right?

I am just wondering where the dishonesty is in this.

[Arvedui]

So if I understand you right, then YOU will be writing the Final Closing post?

And, Lhun, every team have the right to choose their tactics.
The Periaur did not want to forfeit the game, and as they have stated themselves, they were having difficulties in the middle of the debate.

But, I do hope that waiting until the last 24 hours will become a common practice in the coming games.

And both teams can keep on wondering why I have placed the word 'games' in Bold..........

[Lhunithiliel]

Yes, I am writing my closing post at the moment.
But tell me, am i to take the trouble of doing so ?
I have seen the judgement thread already opened...so I am now perplexed.
I'd appreciate an answer asap.

[Eöl]

Lhun, I believed I volunteered to post the closing post, and did so...did you forget that I said I would?:confused:

[Snaga]

Are these debates always this unpleasant? I've done two rounds and not enjoyed either very much.:(

I guess there's a fundamental problem with trying to dredge some arbitrary and spurious point of view out of the books. Its never going to lead to an honest exchange of views. Having seen arguments twisted, quotes deliberately taken out of context and editted to change their sense, dates of events invented to suit a position, lies told, ridicule, mockery, sarcasm, accusations of sexism, gamesmanship, deviousness and ungentlemanly conduct, I'm wondering if this is really worth it.:confused:

Perhaps I'll go back to the rp-ing forum, where if I don't like someone at least I can maim them with a well-honed scimitar. ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

And I am asking the same questions, Snaga!

I know that part of your post hints at me, and this is why I wish you could take into consideration my apologies as I have particularly addressed them to you in the debate thread.
If you have misunderstood my humour and have taken it as sarcasm, mockery etc.... then I am sorry and ask you to excuse me. (well...I'll let you "maim me with a well-honed scimitar" if that will make things right ...In fact you have almost done that...:( )

I myself feel exhausted of all this fight the last two debates have turned into and I wish the next two to be peaceful....
that is if Aule does not throw our guild out of the tournament...;)

[Lantarion]

Haha. ;)
But I do agree with Snaga.. I have seen some fabulous debates, which were amicable, informative and questioning.. This last one was certainly informative (Mrs. Maggott's posts.. yikes!), but I think in the end it comes down to the question being debated.
The topics should be very thought-out, and they should be ones where an obvious answer does not exist. Of course to go really deep into Topicland we would have to assume that the debaters have each read the HoME series, because there are thousands of debatable topics in there..

[Arvedui]

Lhun and snaga. If you thought this one was bad, you should have a look at the Ost-in-Edhil vs. Scholars debate.

Obviously the scimitar is in use outside the rpg-forums as well...

Well done, both teams.

[Snaga]

You mean it gets worse? *shudders* I'll put that in the same category as the things that Gandalf saw in the depths of Moria that he won't talk about.;)

Lhun - your apology is accepted.:)

I'm told I am grumpy, aggressive and unpleasant in the debates too... so I was referring to myself as well. (Thing is - that's probably just my orcish personality shining through... what's an uruk to do?:p)

[Niniel]

Well, most of the serious fights were caused by the rules of the debate being unclear. I think it would be good idea if Aulë could post all the rules of the debate tournament in one place where they would be clear for everyone to see. And it might be a good idea to install a team to clear up any problems that are not adressed in the rules; e.g. three people who are not active in the debates themselves, but are willing to judge any prpblems that occur in the debates.
As for the tone and content of the actual debates; I think it is inherent in any debate or argument, whether it's a game or for real, that people sometimes go too far in expressing their own views. I must say that the debates here are very civilized compared to other debates that I see, on tv or something (just look at the deliberations of your parliament).

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by snaga1
You mean it gets worse? *shudders* I'll put that in the same category as the things that Gandalf saw in the depths of Moria that he won't talk about.;)

Lhun - your apology is accepted.:)

I'm told I am grumpy, aggressive and unpleasant in the debates too... so I was referring to myself as well. (Thing is - that's probably just my orcish personality shining through... what's an uruk to do?:p)
Well, Snaga, you should be veeeeeeery proud of yourself! You have made a Wraith to ask you, contemptible child of Evil, for forgiveness!!! But Wraiths do not forget!!!!!!!! ;) :D

[Walter]

I apologize for intruding in the sacrosanct tournament halls, but I wanted to ask a question and this is the place I thought it might belong to. Also I apologize if my question seems ignorant this might be due to the fact that I seldom participate in organized debating:

The Debating Tournament is meant to improve and deepen the understanding of Tolkien's works, the debating skills of the participants and - last not least - be fun?

[Aulë]

Well, they ARE suppost to be fun (I've being thoroughly enjoying the challenge), but there are a few rules that need a bit of clarification, and a few arguements have developed.
Hopefully everything will be running along smoothly within a couple of Rounds.
This IS the first Tournament at TTF, so there was bound to be a few 'little' problems.

[Snaga]

Yikes! It turned out I was meant to be judging the debate that was worse than ours!:eek: No easy escape for me...

Walter... I think it is easy to slide from a well-argued debate, to bruising debate, and then on to an outright row! Unfortunately, very few people stay sober and dispassionate in a debate. Indeed, use of rhetorical flourishes is part of skill, I would observe. Unfortunately, that can disregard the pride and feelings of others. I am as guilty of that as anyone.

I would like to say to anyone who feels angered by anything I said in a debate, that none of it is meant personally.:)

*dances gleefully* I made a wraith apologise!!! Hee hee hee!!!! *sees said wraith and runs off to his lair*;)

[FoolOfATook]

Originally posted by Niniel
I think it would be good idea if Aulë could post all the rules of the debate tournament in one place where they would be clear for everyone to see. And it might be a good idea to install a team to clear up any problems that are not adressed in the rules; e.g. three people who are not active in the debates themselves, but are willing to judge any prpblems that occur in the debates.


This seems like a good idea to me, but I'm not sure that there's anyone who is interested in the debates and not participating. There are other problems too, such as the fact that the rules would have to be in line with the way that the first two rounds were conducted, in order to avoid having the tournament played under two different sets of guidelines. I'd be willing to spearhead such an attempt when I take over as interim dictator... I mean director. ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by snaga1
*dances gleefully* I made a wraith apologise!!! Hee hee hee!!!! *sees said wraith and runs off to his lair*;) [/B]
(remember now the voice of the wraiths from the FOTR-movie ;) )

Run!!! Hide!!!!!!
But ney! You cannot escape me!!!

For no one can come between a Nazgul and her prey!

Nay! I will not slay thee! I will bare thee away to the Houses of Lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured and thy shriviled mind be left naked to the lidless eye of my Master!

;) :D

[Walter]

Originally posted by snaga1
Walter... I think it is easy to slide from a well-argued debate, to bruising debate, and then on to an outright row! Unfortunately, very few people stay sober and dispassionate in a debate. Indeed, use of rhetorical flourishes is part of skill, I would observe. Unfortunately, that can disregard the pride and feelings of others. I am as guilty of that as anyone.
I too have been guilty of that too often, but - with my intrusion here - I was hoping to cause the participants and organizers to hold on for moment and maybe do some reflection. For proceeding on the previous path might lead towards more frustration and anger among everyone involved...

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
(remember now the voice of the wraiths from the FOTR-movie ;) )

Run!!! Hide!!!!!!
But ney! You cannot escape me!!!

For no one can come between a Nazgul and her prey!

Nay! I will not slay thee! I will bare thee away to the Houses of Lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured and thy shriviled mind be left naked to the lidless eye of my Master!

;) :D
Bad,bad Lhun..............

Guys,please check Eriol's thread concerning the rules of the Tournament.It's a very good job

[Aulë]

Yes, and also check out the Scoreboard/Schedule thread.
It had all the links you'll ever need for the Tournament, and some other useful things too.

Anyway, I have another idea:
A 'Best & Fairest' Debater Award.

Here's the way I think it could work:
Each host will pick out the 3 best & fairest debaters in each debate. (The best will be given 3 points, the second best will be given 2 points, and the third best will be given 1 point).
Now, these choices will not be shown publicly. They would be PMed to either me, or someone chosen to 'look after' the votes.

At the end of the Tournement, the votes will be read out in an Awards thread. The person with the most votes would then be crowned 'The Best & Fairest Debater of the 2003 Debating Tournament'.

Thoughts?

[Aulë]

Oh, and another 'minor' announcement,

From this post onwards, until some time mid-July, FoolOfATook is the sole Co-ordinator of the Tournament.
All major Tournament ideas shall go through him.

*hands FoolOfAnAmerican the sceptre of power*:)

[Beorn]

Welcome to the TTF Debating Tournament thread. I'm not entirely sure what to move and what not. I'm expecting to move:

The debate threads here....
The Rules, overall discussion, and scorecard here (done)
The judging threads here...

I plan on leaving the
In-guild discussion threads where they are...



I'll move the things when I get a few replies to this. I said to FoaT:
I posted in the discussion thread so that I can make sure I don't have a party and a faction set out to spill my blood

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Aulë
Anyway, I have another idea:
A 'Best & Fairest' Debater Award.

Surely I must be in the running for this prize:D

[Ithrynluin]

Excellent new section Mike!

Every debate and judgement thread has been moved here.

Surely I must be in the running for this prize:D

Whoop-de-doo Anc! :D

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Surely I must be in the running for this prize:D

Definately.
Whoop-de-what? ;)

Great idea from Aulë.
And a great idea from Beorn.

Seems as this is going to run rather smoothly in a few weeks time.

[Lhunithiliel]

Excellent idea!
It makes it now easier to have access to all related to the Tournament without having to browse all the guilds!

Bravo, Beorn!

[Niniel]

Great idea Beorn! It makes it so much easier to find when all concerning threads are in one place!

[Aulë]

OK peoples, Idril has agreed to be the keeper of the 'Best & Fairest Debater' votes.
All hosts must PM their 3 2 1 votes* to Idril once the debate has concluded.

ithrynluin, Nóm, Arvedui, Anamatar, Scatha and myself must PM our votes from the 1st and 2nd Rounds in the near future.

The results shall be held classified until the Award Ceremony at the conclusion of the Tournament.

I'm sure that Eriol can add this to the 'Rules' section of his. :)
No open discussion of the given votes should be allowed (How I love the suspense at the end :) )




* 3 votes for the Best & Fairest in the debate
2 votes for the runner up
And 1 votes for the 3rd ranked debater

[Eriol]

Will these votes be averaged by the number of rounds in which the member debated? As in a "times at bat" average?

(See, not all brazilians are baseball-illiterate ;) ).

It's just a thought...

I would suggest an average in that manner, and a minimum requirement (like, say, participation in 4, or perhaps 3 -- out of 10 -- debates) for this award.

I have not devoted a lot of thought to it, though (I'm too lazy right now). It is simply the usual way of dealing with contests with non-mandatory participation -- i.e., a contest in which some members "play" more rounds than other members. Else Ancalagon, the acknowledged Best and Fairest debater as established in his last debate, may lose to an upstart simply because he took part in less debates.

:);)

[omnipotent_elf]

By the way, i think that Aule did a great job, and i'm very thankfull for the way the first few debates went
- this is from my perspective only

well done Aule

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, I very strongly doubt that Anc would lose to anyone, no matter how frequent debator he/she was! ;) :D

But of course... the number of particpations does matter.
Take a really good debator like Maedhros for example, or like Nom or Eriol... They can always get the maximum points for their performance in a debate...but they may not participate in every and each debate. So, every time one does not participate in a debate, he/she loses the opportunity of getting a vote and points.

On the other hand... WHAT CRITERIA should apply in order to determine the best debator in a debate?:rolleyes:

[omnipotent_elf]

umm...can someone also help me...what do judges actually look for in a debate?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf
umm...can someone also help me...what do judges actually look for in a debate?
Strong arguments.... like ...."spelling mistakes" for example...I think :p

[Nóm]

I am with Lhunithiliel on that. A person who is in more debates has a much higher chance of winning the best debator title. I will say right up fron that YayGollum and I will probably end up in every debate!

What could be be done about it is this:

Each host rates every debator in the debate. Say, on a scale of 0-5 (5 being best).

So each debator in each debate gets something out of a possable 5.

Then at the end you will have results like this, for example:

Maedhros scores 10 out of 25
Nom scores 10 out of 40

So I have 25 percent, while Maedhros has 40%. He wins even though we have the same amount of points.

Only bad thing is that it is extra work for the hosts. The good thing is that this system or one like it is the only way to judge a person's debate skills in the most fair way possable.

[omnipotent_elf]

How about a percentage system
each debator gets a mark out of ten
and their average is made out of all debates they compete in. Minimum 3 debates (maybe more if agreed) and the highest average wins. It is also a fair way of doing it.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Nóm
I am with Lhunithiliel on that. A person who is in more debates has a much higher chance of winning the best debator title. I will say right up fron that YayGollum and I will probably end up in every debate!

What could be be done about it is this:

Each host rates every debator in the debate. Say, on a scale of 0-5 (5 being best).

So each debator in each debate gets something out of a possable 5.

Then at the end you will have results like this, for example:

Maedhros scores 10 out of 25
Nom scores 10 out of 40

So I have 25 percent, while Maedhros has 40%. He wins even though we have the same amount of points.

Only bad thing is that it is extra work for the hosts. The good thing is that this system or one like it is the only way to judge a person's debate skills in the most fair way possable.

The problem with this scheme is that it depends on the host's benevolence. If a host is a good guy and distributes a lot of 5's and 4's, while another host is stingy and gives 3's at most, you have a undesirable difference.

In other words, it is desirable that each debate has the same number of points "at stake", so that they can be standardized over the Tournament.

Aulë's first idea would solve that. The major point is averaging the points over the "times debating" to prevent this inflation due to participation in many debates. The end result would be similar to what you proposed, Nóm. And I don't think it is too much work for Idril to do it... anyway, she deserves to work a lot after that vote for the Periaur!

:D

[Snaga]

Question... how long should I, as a host, give one of the contesting guilds to submit their team?

One guild has done so, and the topic is ready, but without the second team I can't post it. (If for no other reason than we can't have tactical substitutions based on expertise for certain areas of knowledge).

[Eriol]

hmm... I never thought that could happen.

I suppose a time limit must be prescribed in the rules. What do you suggest, snaga? Perhaps 2 days after the opening of the debate thread...

[Idril]

Originally posted by Eriol
And I don't think it is too much work for Idril to do it... anyway, she deserves to work a lot after that vote for the Periaur!:D

BOO HOO HOO, BOO HOO HOO *bawls loudly* :( ;)

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Idril
BOO HOO HOO, BOO HOO HOO *bawls loudly* :( ;)


Crazy Northants dialect... I only get the "loudly" part.

:D

[Snaga]

Originally posted by Eriol
hmm... I never thought that could happen.

I suppose a time limit must be prescribed in the rules. What do you suggest, snaga? Perhaps 2 days after the opening of the debate thread... Perhaps 2 days after OR midnight of the day the debate is due to start, whichev