Gandalf's Road: Judgement Day

[Gothmog]

It is now time for the judging of the debate between ithrynluin and gate7ole. There will be four judges plus a poll. I ask all judges to post their decisions in the thread and not vote in the poll.

The Debate can be read .here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10540)

The Poll is for all other interested persons (and myself :D ) to be used as a tie-break if needed.

The Judges for the debate are:

Ancalagon,
Mrs. Maggott,
Nom,
Wonko the Sane,

I wish to give my thanks to the judges for agreeing to perform this task.

The Poll will be open for 14 days

[Ancalagon]

Well done to all concerned, my judgement will follow along shortly;)

[Wonko The Sane]

I'd like to congratulate both Gate7ole and Ithrynluin who both presented excellent cases and made judging this one a lot harder than I expected. ;)
Congratulations to both of you and I'll post it my judgement as soon as I've organized my notes. :)

[Wonko The Sane]

Oooh...Ahhh...Wonko the Finicky has come to a decision about something!
Be amazed...bow!
:)

Alright to review the debate...

gate7ole seemed to start out a bit shaky. In my opinion it seems that his first post actually lent more persuasive evidence to his opposition than I think he intended, but he quickly got back on track.

Ithrynluin started out a bit stronger, however, I think both of you wasted quite a bit of time arguing over whether or not Gandalf knew of the Balrog's presence to begin with. Though it is an interesting topic it seemed best left to another debate entirely. For though it has importance, it doesn't have MUCH importance on the topic at hand.

I found both sides VERY persuasive, but I had to go back to the original question and ask which side proved his point better in regards to the question:

Was Gandalf "Told" to go to Moria so that the Balrog could be removed from Middle-earth?

Gate7ole took the affirmative, and Ithrynluin the negative. It seems to me that though Gate7ole made a fairly strong case for Gandalf being "meant" to destroy the Balrog, pass away, and return "enhanced" it didn't quite address the point of whether or not he was "told" to go there "so that the Balrog could be removed from Middle-Earth."

Ithrynluin however did a better job of addressing this specific question. He even concedes that Gandalf's fall was the design of Iluvatar, but not His direction.

The problem is that Gate7ole did an EXCELLENT job showing that Gandalf was meant to, or perhaps even "told" to go into Moria for the sake of becoming enhanced enough to lead the war, however, the question was was he sent to destroy the Balrog. I think Ithrynluin did a better job of showing this was not the case, though Gate7ole does present a strong position which made judging this a difficult choice.

I vote for Ithryluin.

If anyone wants to see the notes I made as I read the posts each oponent made I can post them here or PM them to you.

Um..thanks. I guess that's it. Congratulations and good luck to you both!

[Mrs. Maggott]

I interpreted that which was to be proved or disproved the premise that Gandalf was “told” to go – or “sent” to Moria in order to bring about the destruction of the Balrog lurking there. Naturally, I had my own ideas about that premise, but the important thing in the debate was to see which of the two parties proved their particular point best.

Unfortunately, during the course of the debate, the two participants did rather get “bogged down” in speculations about things that may – or may not – have had a bearing on the matter. Still, from my reading of the premise, it did not seem important to me whether or not anyone in the Company considered the possibility that a Balrog was present in Moria since that was not what had been asked. All that was required was a convincing argument that Gandalf was “told to go” (“sent”) to Moria. There is nothing in the premise which requires that he know why he was to go there. Obviously, from the dialogue that both debaters presented, he was of the opinion that Moria was “the better way” for the Company to proceed. It was away from the prying eyes of those who were looking for the Ring (Sauron and Saruman) and, frankly, a way that very few people would have considered taking given its history. Remember, the Fellowship had already been warned in the Council of Elrond that the attempt to re-establish a dwarf kingdom led by Balin had obviously gone wrong somehow as nothing had been heard from that contingent for many years after fairly constant contact in the beginning of the endeavor. So Gandalf was certainly not expecting a hospitable reception in the mines.

What I was looking for in the postings was a small sentence by the Wizard that I believe summed up the matter – and Gate7ole had that comment in his second post:

“A Balrog,” muttered Gandalf. “Now I understand.”

When I first read the book, I took that to mean that the Wizard ‘understood’ what power had opposed him in the Chamber above since it certainly wasn’t an orc or troll, but a creature of virtually equal power. Remember, while they were still fighting in the Chamber, Gandalf declares:

“Off you go, all of you, down the stairs! Wait a few minutes for me at the bottom, BUT IF I DO NOT COME SOON, GO ON!...Do as I say! said Gandalf fiercely. SWORDS ARE NO MORE USE HERE.”

Why would Gandalf fail to “come soon” – or “come” at all as the above clearly indicates, and why were swords – which had protected the Company during the sharp affray with the orcs, “of no more use” unless something was coming that the Wizard recognized as being far beyond the power of mere brute strength.

A short time later after the “spell” contest, the Wizard admits “...I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed.” Gimli then asks if he had met “the beater of the drums”, to which Gandalf replies:

“What it was, I CANNOT GUESS.”

He then goes on to say that the spell/counter-spell bursts the door, at which time he sees:

“Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside...”

Then he speaks of the collapse of the chamber:

“I am afraid Balin is buried deep, and maybe SOMETHING ELSE is buried there too.”

All of this leads up to the Wizard’s realization upon the bridge of exactly what he had been opposing in the ongoing struggle. Clearly, up until that moment, Gandalf did not realize that he was encountering a Balrog. But his very statement that he “understood” cannot, I think, be limited merely to a recognition of his opponent – one does not simply mention something as trivial as that at a time of great crisis – but, more likely, of why he had felt the need to journey through Moria in the first place.

The debater affirming premise of the debate does is not required to “prove” that the Wizard understood the underlying reason for his “intuition”, his “desire”, his “calling” as it were to cross the Mountains through the Mines, he only has to show that it was clearly more than a mere tactical choice motivated by necessity after the failure to cross the Redhorn Gap. Indeed (though neither debater developed the matter), the Wizard seemed not at all surprised that the Company was unable to proceed even though it was early winter and the pass should have been open. He seemed quite unfazed by their failure and certainly never castigated Aragorn for his insistence that they try the pass. He permitted the attempt although one gets the “feeling” that he did not believe it would succeed.

Under the circumstances, it is my judgment that Gate7ole was able to provide convincing evidence that Gandalf’s choice of Moria was not simply one dictated by mere tactical considerations even reinforced by the failure of the Company to cross the Redhorn Gate. Rather, it was the Wizard’s long held belief that the Company would and must go through the Mines for a reason that he himself did not understand. In the battle of the Door, he got his first inkling of his adversary, but held out the hope that it had been buried deep in the collapse of the Chamber. However, on the bridge, he came to the realization of why he had been “sent” that way and what he was being “told” to do.

My judgment is for the affirmative position and Gate7ole.

[Nóm]

Both opened with good posts that explained their reasoning well, but gate7ole's was more convincing. Too much of the debate was spent by both on the subject of Gandalf knowing about the balrog or not. A point that I thought was of little importance to ithrynluin's arguement as presented, even though he put forth an excellent aruement for it.

Gate7ole did much more to hinder ithrynluin's arguements than he did gate7ole's.

Now the idea of Gandalf knowing about the balrog is dropped, and we are presented with a fresh arguement by ithrynluin, one that I think is stronger than the first:
Gandalf says "from the beginning", because (as the leader of the Fellowship and one of the Wise) he had to consider all possible options for the Fellowship - which was only right and very prudent. Moria came to him as the path that was the most secret (and secrecy was one of the most important, if not THE most important, factors for the success of the Quest)...
To that gate7ole says:
You speak correctly about the various paths that had the Fellowship to choose. But logic doesn’t always oppose to fate. It might well be that the most logical way was also the plan of Ilúvatar. So, other proof must be searched.

I think this was a weak aruement, but perhaps still the best that could be used against it.

ithrynluin takes care of it with:
I never excluded the possibility that Gandalf's plan coincided with Ilúvatar's. It could have easily been so, without Ilúvatar "telling" Gandalf what to do.


Gate7ole further supports his own arguement:
He would not leave the mission, accept his failure and wait for Ilúvatar’s possible intervention. He would fight until the end, until he perishes, until all the hope is lost, even though he knew that this would mean his “death”.
But if he was told this, if he had a notion of Ilúvatar’s plan to enhance him, or even if he had a slight foresight that would prove that he was not left alone, that he was guided, then yes, he would sacrifice himself, since then the possibilities of his enhancement would be far greater.
ithrynluin does not directly hurt that arguement, but furthers his own:
The peoples of Middle Earth have free will, and even so, they are always acting out Eru's plan, whether they wish to do so or not. Look at Melkor - he committed all those evil deeds against the inhabitants of ME and he rebelled against Eru, but in the end (after his fall), many of his evil works turned to good, because that was ultimately Ilúvatar's plan. We can say that a "plan" is ingrained in each and every individual, and that plan is acted upon by that individual, even though this person might think this was of his/her own design. So Gandalf might have had this plan or notion of going through Moria "in him", but still he wasn't "told" what to do explicitly.

gate7ole closes up with:
Gandalf actually offers himself to Ilúvatar, passes the mission to Ilúvatar. I do not think that this was in a sense “normal”. As far as we know, only Manwë was in communication with Ilúvatar. Gandalf was not and he could not have known his thoughts. He could not just sacrifice himself with the hope that he would be enhanced. It would not seem proper. He had to stay with the others and fight with all his powers. The only possible explanation is that he was “told” to do this, to pass himself to the authorities.
Another point that I faintly raised is that with every Ilúvatar’s intervention there would be a kind of foresight - like the Dúnedain of Númenor - and now Gandalf.

I see weakness in that closing arguement, in that the last statement contradicts what came before it. This was not pointed out and used against him by ithrynluin though, since it was the closing arguement.

I see gate7ole was leading the debate in the beginning, but losing his hold as ithrynluin's arguement became stronger and his own weaker.

Half way through the debate I was thinking that gate7ole would win this thing, but things changed, and I judge this debate as a draw.

Taking part in a debate it can seem like good arguements in the beginning need not be repeated later, and I have fallen to that error myself. However, when reading a debate it looks bad to close with something weak, even when earlier arguements were strong and had not been disproven. It leaves the reader less convinced.

[Ancalagon]

There is no doubting the talent of both individuals who participated in this debate, however, as with any judgement it requires one to overlook talent and focus on fact.

For those who think little of the issue of Gandalf knowing/not knowing of the presence of the Balrog prior to his foray into Moria, I must strongly disagree. I think this is the crux of the debate and essential in determining motive and choice.

Ithrynluin did provide the stronger arguement for knowing that the Balrog did in fact still lurk within Moria, however, he did not provide an entirely logical explanation for the decision, which in theory would seem a suicidal adventure.
In saying that, neither did Gate7ole convince me that Eru influenced Gandalfs decision at any point in the procedings.

One question left lingering in my mind is why on Middle-Earth would Eru send the last hope of the free peoples of Middle-Earth into such a predicament, facing such a foe, with the Ring in tow with the distinct possibility that they could be destroyed by a Maia, potentially greater than any Istari or even Sauron himself? If the basis for the arguement then is, that not only did he influence the decision, but Eru's hand had a part in ensuring the defeat of this Balrog, then there is absolutely no evidence supporting this nor do I beleive anyone ever provide such.

In fact, Gate7ole has an impossible task for this reason alone, for he cannot possibly provide a convincing, factual arguement to support his stance save by sheer imagination and speculation. Ithrynluin on the other hand, simply has to defend Gandalfs own choice as being somewhat of an error of judgement or as the best possible route that could be taken both safely and secretly. However, even that defensive position was not argued as firmly or convincingly as it could have been.

Reluctantly, I give the debate to Ithrynluin, not because of better skill (for both are equally talented), but because Gate7ole chose the impossible and failed to convince.

One final point, I think much of the fault may lie in the wording of the question itself, rather than be attributed to the participants themselves.

[Wonko The Sane]

:) It's a draw! Two against two!!

What do we do now?

[Gothmog]

The Judges have posted their votes and the count stands at the moment as.

ithrynluin 2 votes
gate7ole 1 vote
Draw 1 vote

We now await the results of the Poll to (which I hope will have some more votes on it) to declare the final decision.

My thanks once more to the judges for their work and their comments.

[Gothmog]

The poll has closed and the verdict of that poll is in favour of ithrynluin. Therefore the final count is:

ithrynluin 3 votes
gate7ole 1 vote
Draw 1 vote

So it is time to declare the ithrynluin the victor by 3 votes to 1.

Congratulations to ithrynluin.

Congratulations also to Gate7ole for the work put into this debate.

[gate7ole]

My congratulations to Ithrynluin!
And my thanks again to Gothmog for organizing the whole thing.

[Ithrynluin]

Thank you gate, and thanks again to the judges and Gothmog for taking the time to do this!

[Wonko The Sane]

Congratulations Ithrynluin!!! :) I knew you could do it!