Do you fear death

[Gil-Galad]

As a member of The Guild of Tolkienology I'm working on a project about II age.That is why I'm making a research.
I believe there is an alegory between Numenoreans and us,real people.

...and the desire of everlasting life,to escape from death and the ending of delight,grew strong upon them."

Nonetheless even they,who named themselves the Faithful,did not wholly escape from the afflictionof their people,and they were troubled by the thought of death.

But the fear of death grew ever darker upon them,and they delayed it by all means that they could;and they began to build great houses for their dead,while their wise men laboured unceasingly to discover if they might the secret of recalling life,or at the least of the prolonging of Men's days.

All these quotes are example of Numenoreans fear of death and there are many more examples for that,but I think these are enough.
My question is :Do you fear death?

Please be honest and tell me why.
That would be of great importance to me and my lecture.

[legolasismine]

Well yes I used too fear death its the scariest thing in the world to me,especially where I might go after I do,because I have such strong beliefs so i have no doubt I'm going too heaven,but the fact that I might not see my friends again,because they don't believe what I do scares me,but then again on a lighter note I don't fear death,and I don't think about it alot,so I have to say I don't fear death at all.

[Feanorian]

I also hold the belief that I am going to heaven when I die and if this is true then I have no reason to fear an earthly death because in my mind it is just a very short stay here. Most agree there is life after death, eternal life. Of course I dont want to die and i would fear dying say if I was about to be shot or something because that is a natural feeling. We dont want to die but we dont have to fear it.

[Morwen]

Death is another stage of life. I do not fear death.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Morwen
Death is another stage of life. I do not fear death.
Really?:confused:

[Morwen]

Indeed. I believe one cannot truly live until he/she is able to die. Death is a constant. Death makes us human. Death is life.

[Finduilas]

I share Morwen's opinion. I do not think it is possible to get to know life if you haven't come across death. The passing through the Two worlds may be a bit scary and painful for somebody but it is necessary for the raising of our spirits.
I have a point I'd like to share. As it is natural we die at a decently declining age, that's usually when we are much wiser and experienced then youths and grown ups. So if Death comes when we are at that old age then it just seems to be the next stage of the development of our spirit and intellect as well as worldly knowledge.

[FoolOfATook]

I'm not scared of death, but I'm terrified of dying...;)

[Feanorian]

As far as death and Tolkien relates to this he says that death was Eru's gift to men. That applies to us as well. We are not meant to live on this earth for eternity we must die and that completes or begins our lives.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Feanorian
As far as death and Tolkien relates to this he says that death was Eru's gift to men. That applies to us as well. We are not meant to live on this earth for eternity we must die and that completes or begins our lives.
And what is your position?Do you personaly fear death?

[Thorin]

I do not fear death, because I know what my fate will be. However, I think everyone fears dying. If you were trapped in a frozen cave with a bloodied, crippled leg and knew you were going to die, you'd be pretty darn scared and would do anything to make it out alive. Let's not fool ourselves.

However, I believe the Bible when it says that death is a rest from our labors. We will rest in the grave until Christ wakes us up at the second coming of Christ where we'll be changed immortal and reunited with our loved ones to spend eternity. l do not believe, nor does the Bible teach that you go to heaven or hell at death. (see 1 Corinthians chapter 15).

[Aiwendil2]

Wow. It seems many people here don't fear death, at least not consciously.

As for me, I'm terrified of it. It's the thing I fear most, and, it often seems to me, the only thing really deserving of fear.

[Niniel]

I don't fear BEING dead; since I don't believe in life after death. So when I'm dead, I won't know it anyway. I do fear dying; I cannot begin to imagine how it is to feel life leaving you; maybe it's just like falling asleep, or maybe not. What I most fear is dying without being happy about my life; there are so many things I want to do and to be, and if I die without being able to have done at least some of them, and without having been happy during my life, my life will have been pointless. And since I don't believe in reincarnation or life after death, I think I have just one life in which I have to do everything. That scares me sometimes.

[FREEDOM!]

NO, i don't fear death.

[Idril]

I don't fear death - an escape from this mad world! But I would fear for the people I leave behind and the pain they will suffer with my death (like my kids for instance). I think when I die, my life force or energy, just dissipates back into the great big pot of energy.

[Celebthôl]

Do i fear death? No

Do i fear dieing? Yes

I mean im going to "Die" sometime, its just a question of how!

My greatest fear (other than being crushed to death), is being old. By this i mean being helpless, being weak, growing old so that it is a problem trying to get to the bathroom on time (it may sound funny, but it scares me to death ~excuse the punn~)!

(Guh im thankful for my youth...)

Thôl

[Idril]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
My greatest fear (other than being crushed to death), is being old. By this i mean being helpless, being weak, growing old so that it is a problem trying to get to the bathroom on time (it may sound funny, but it scares me to death ~excuse the punn~)!


Snap! - getting old - the pain of arthritis as well, losing mental facilities, dementia (granted some may think I'm halfway there already:( )

[Wonko The Sane]

I fear death.
A lot.
I had a huge freak out party the other day..crying and calling Snaga at 6 in the morning for him asking if he'd talk to me and help me not feel so scared.

I'm afraid there's nothing after death. I'm afraid of the nothingness.

I don't want nothingness.

[Celebthôl]

you want to go to heaven with your Snaggy Waggy dont you :) i feel the same Wonks, but i dont fear death itself ;)

[munchkin]

Death freakes me out. At night, I go into these major thinking modes, and sometimes its about this topic; what lies ahead, what life(or whatever you want to call it) will be like, what is on the other side. All these questions and more. I freak out so much I get literaly 2 hours of sleep and those 2 hours suck. I have wicked bad nightmares about dudes killing me and stuff.

And then there are these sometimes when I'll do it in the daytime, and that isn't fun either. All of my friends think there is something wrong with me, because I'll space out for so long. Like one time I was watching this movie in Social Studies(i didn't see much of it, and I don't remember the name of it.), and there was this kid who did something really special, and I think he was in the hospital for a while, and then he came out to see his friend getting beaten up by these two evil punky kids. So the "special" kid gets on his bike, and runs into the two kids, trying to stop them. One of the kids starts fighting with him, and they were wrestling, and the evil kid had a knife in his pocket. The knife sunk into the "special" kid, and he died. I am feeling sad just describing it to you people. And they showed a close up on the knife sinking into the kid.:( :( :( :( :( These kind of things and more make me fear death, so much, it is unbelivale. I don't really fear anything, but the fear of doing something that might get me killed or severly injured that leads to a slow, mournful, death, is the kind of stuff that freakes me out. Just put yourself in that "special" kid's shoes, and then think about death for a while. That is munchkins view on death.

[Lúthien Séregon]

I do not fear death itself, but rather how I may die...I'm so scared of drowning and suffocation.:eek: I used to think that there was something after death, but now I'm not so sure...no-one can know for sure.

[munchkin]

Ok, Anamatar has informed me that that movie was Pay it Forward and he wasn't in a hospital where I said he was. He was at a school. I have no idea how anamatar figured out the name of the movie from that little part...

[Eriol]

I think "fear" means the possibility that evil will come of something. In that way I do not fear death, at least not consciously -- we all have an animal fear of death that can emerge in a dire circumstance; but I am convinced that no evil can come out of it, because of the mercy of God.

I greatly fear the death of other people, though, because I can see the possibility of evil coming from it, be it nothingness or torment -- I won't take sides in Thorin's great debate about Hell, because I'm not sure. But any of those possibilities is very evil, for me, and I am terrified that it can happen to anyone I love.

Ideally I would have to feel like this for everyone, but I have to confess there are only a few people who make me feel like this. The fear of Death, for me, is not the fear that I will die -- it is the fear that they will die, while unrepentant.

Would I enjoy being immortal (i.e., am I a Numenórean at heart)? Not at all, unless a lot of other persons were immortal with me -- and even so I am doubtful. I think death defines the meaning of our life on earth... but that is another subject, and a much longer post.

[ms Greenleaf]

NO. I KNOW THAT TO LIVE REALLY I HAVE TO DIE. I DO NOT WISH FOR DEATH BUT I CANNOT SAY I FEAR IT. I MIGHT JST ENJOY IT...I AM NUTS ANYWAYS. I UNDERSTAND THE FEAR. PEOPLE FEAR WHAT THEY DO NOT KNOW.

A GOOD BOOK ON THIS TOPIC (ONE THAT WILL NOT PUT YOU TO SLEEP IS THE FANTASY) NOVELS BT URSALA LE GUIN.

OR THE SONG BY PEARL JAM
I CANNOT FEAR DEATH BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR ABOUT IT...THOUGH FROM WHAT I HEAR OF HEAVEN AND HELL THAT DEF SCARES ME. WHAT DO YOU DO IF EVERYTHING IS PERFECT...I WOULD GET BORED. SO I GEUSS I BETTER GET RE-BORN.

I THINK ABOUT THIS TOPIC ALOT FOR A 15 YEAROLD///MEH

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

Interesting topic.

I presume Tolkien did not fear death, since he described it as a gift.

I don't fear death.

But I am sad at a wasted life - whether it is wasted by oneself or by someone else (as in war or violence). I don't feel like I have wasted my life, so I am OK with dying.

I DO fear being in endless pain and unable to die. Such as being crushed in an accident.

Or being unable to take care of myself, as in old age, and not being able to die.

The passing over is the touchy part, because of the survival instinct which holds us back - but that is understandable. Of course, the panic attack that it kicks off is not very pleasant.

I do hope death comes fast and painlessly.

I DO fear dying before the ROTK comes out.

[Wonko The Sane]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
you want to go to heaven with your Snaggy Waggy dont you :) i feel the same Wonks, but i dont fear death itself ;)

Yes. I wanna go to heaven with my orcling. :( I know I won't feel it if there's nothing...
But if I knew I could go on living after life it'd make me very happy.

And I really really fear those close to me dying....
My grandfather died two years ago...but I never really knew him. I only met him a handful of times...

I fear my other grandpa, or my grandma or one of my parents dying...a lot.

I dream about it...it scares me so much. Sometimes the dreams come just to force me to call them up I think. :rolleyes:

Also I'm scared to death what I'd do without Snaga...just to think of losing him...

I'm afraid of death on all levels.

[Dr. Ransom]

Although good old Sigmond thought that sex was the primary motivator of humans, it now totally accepted that in fact fear of death is our primary motivator. So, on a phycological level, all of us fear death.

However, as C.S. Lewis pointed out "Because I find that there is a longing in life that cannont be completely fullfilled, the only logical thing would be that I was made for another world" (Uh, yeah, I really paraphrased that, I don't have that anthalogy anymore :( )

As a Christian, I believe that "To live is Christ, but to die is gain." I do not believe that humans are random componds and atoms only, but that we are eternal. Made in the image of God Himself (Yes Thorin, I do not totally discount annilationism, but I tend to not see it as exegesis so far... but maybe...).

So, ultimately, death for me will only mean that I will no longer struggle w/ an evil nature, but will be totally restored with my creator.
Being a Pre-Tribulationalist as well, I believe that the believers will come back with Christ to live on earth for the 1000 year kingdom. So while that will be heaven on earth, the "real" heaven won't even be getting started for 1000 years! Party on!

Speaking of which...

Thorin: would you mind telling me sometime if you're Pre-Mid-Post or Amillienial sometime? I'd be facinated if somehow that works into being an annilationist. Thanks man.


Yes, but Mindy, I don't even fear not seeing ROTK. Because undoubtablly God is an LOTR fan too... And can you imagine the big screen and stereo sound? :D

Enjoy- Ransom

[Wonko The Sane]

I would like to believe in God and heaven.

And fundamentally I do. I was raised Christian as well.

But I can't help this doubt.

"Please forgive the words that I just blurted out. It wasn't me it was a strange and creeping doubt." Radiohead, I can't.
:)

Anyway, I know people who have had "signs" that help them believe.
I haven't.
I'm just waiting...
:)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Mindy_O_Lluin

But I am sad at a wasted life - whether it is wasted by oneself or by someone else (as in war or violence).

Yeah,that is probably even greater fear than that of death.Just imagine to live and to waste all the time you have,not to achieve the aims you have in life etc. ....that's really my biggest fear.
I know we will die.There is a bulgarian writer that says:
"People origin from earth,exists,and then again become earth.what is important is the purpose of human life."(Pavel Vezhinov)
So I realize that when I die there will be nobody who will remember something about me in 2354 year for example.I'll be just part of the people that were born and died.but I do not want to be one of them,cause for me the purpose of life is not only to live,but to do something for the other people,cause I'm sure life is a gift.I want people to remember me.
My greatest fear is not from death,but from wasted time and wasted life.

[Wonko The Sane]

I'm just afraid of death...of the nothingness.

I wouldn't mind not living if there was something else after...but the nothingness terrifies me.

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

I do not believe that humans are random compounds and atoms only, but that we are eternal. Made in the image of God Himself. . . . . . .
Yes, but Mindy, I don't even fear not seeing ROTK. Because undoubtablly God is an LOTR fan too... And can you imagine the big screen and stereo sound?

I think we are kind of random - physically- as random as a DNA molecule is formed from an RNA, or as random as two lock and key molecules are at finding each other. The laws of the universe apply, but are beyond our understanding in this pittance of a marble brain we have in this temporary physical state. But I think we are eternal also, in that we came from the spiritual (ether?) part of the universe and will return back to it after death. And on that side, we are beyond the strictures of space and time, to which the physical world limits us, and we will be included in the 'mind of God' so to speak. (And thus, I too am not really worried about ROTK - that was a joke of course - as I expect within the mind of God, I will just 'know' it all at once.

As far as being formed in the image of God, I do not consider that to be literal - interpreted within the narrow understanding of an imperfect brain, within the context of egocentric human arrogance. That would REALLY be saying that we think God looks like the physical US, which I think is disrespectful to God. My interpretation is that God was talking about our 'soul' or spirit as being in the image of God. (But it's only a tiny broken off piece of it, captured for a time in this physical vehicle). And that our soul is the significant part of us, not the body.

And God throwing us into this physical form for a fraction of a second in Universal time, is either a gift, or a test, or a punishment, or all of the above. If it is a test, then it is significant for a person not to risk his soul while here, and to not waste his time. We have a fraction of a second (time is relative) to leave the world a better place than we came into it, out of Love for God's creation and 'children', and to resist the temptation or foolishness of falling into evil (the domain of Melkor, Destruction, Ego, Eternal Separation from God, etc.) Thus proving ourselves worthy to go back to God.

To contradict my own statement above, I like to think of the universal law that creates our physical symmetry and our 'imagination' of God and ourselves, as similar to a fractal image from the Mandelbot Formula, the original image, from a mathmatical formula, cascaded into endless scaled down duplicates of itself. Just a thought.

[The-Elf-Herself]

Wow. Very thought-out. My answer is very simple: no. I'm not afraid of death, for myself or for others. I'm wary and I won't purposely do things that will probably lead to death, but at the same time I don't lie awake thinking about it, I just trust that when my time here is ended I will leave, whenever that may be. As I believe firmly in God, Heaven, and Hell, I also believe that everyone goes to either one place or the other after death. However, I don't like to worry about where someone went to one place or the other, I'm hardly in the position to judge those kinds of things. Since I do believe completely in this, I don't have a fear of nothingness or anything else. As for others, that is their business and me wondering extensively about it won't help or change it.

[Dr. Ransom]

Yes Mindy, I knew it was a joke... And I found it rather funny :D

Being in the Image of God seems to mean that God also has many characteristics that we do, such as a Mind, Emotions, and Will.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by The-Elf-Herself
As I believe firmly in God, Heaven, and Hell, I also believe that everyone goes to either one place or the other after death.

Hmm...I guess you'd be surprised to know, then, that the Bible doesn't teach instant rewards at death, whether it be heaven or "hell"?

[Wonko The Sane]

I was thinking that...death is scary...but I'm more scared of living life without those that I love. :(

[Bergile]

I suppose that i am scared of death, i don't worry about it though. It's just the old life cycle, and i hope when i die i'll put some goodness into the earth.
My mum said that when her dad died she felt a kinda energy rush come out of him, she's very cynacle and totally unreligious, so i don't know what all that is about. I don't believe in life after death, it seems like a shame really. I don't really know much about the concept of heaven, but are you supposed to go to heaven (or hell) at the second coming and then "live" for eternity? To me, that seems more scary then just dying.

[Athelas]

I had a NDE, (Near Death Experience), and because of what I learned, there is nothing in the universe that I look forward to more; nevertheless, I try to live every day to the hilt, as if each were my last. There is a vivid authenticity to this. Death is more vibrant and alive than this life will ever be. For those of good heart it is an exaltation, a liberation.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
I was thinking that...death is scary...but I'm more scared of living life without those that I love. :(
Wonks,I hope Snaga will read that :)

[Morgoth]

Death is not something to fear. Death should be embraced. However, life too should be embraced, and never wasted.

[Celebthôl]

I do not believe that humans are random compounds and atoms only, but that we are eternal. Made in the image of God Himself. . . . . . .

Well God has no image, God is Everything and he is Nothing, he specifically doesnt show himself in the physical so that we dont see him and brand him with certain shape and form...

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Well God has no image, God is Everything and he is Nothing, he specifically doesnt show himself in the physical so that we dont see him and brand him with certain shape and form... I think you misunderstood the word "image." From the Christian perspective "made in the image of God" means given a soul which never dies and having the choice to do good or evil. We are not simply 'programmed' like a cat or dog.

Also from a Christian POV God is the trinity, three in one. God the Father is a spirit, never seen; Jesus is the 'physical' being who came to earth; and the Holy Spirit is that which indwells Christians.

[Celebthôl]

Well i dont take things from a Christian point of view...anymore, and in my belief, Jesus was a form of God, but there is a lot more to it than that...

[Annushka]

I fear death cause for me it`s the end of everything. I don`t believe in life after death. For me it`s just those 80 years that I`ll be around. Maybe less. That makes my life more complicated cause I see nothing in perspective. The worst thing that can happen to somebody is dying. Reincarnation would be beautiful:)

[Ithrynluin]

I do not fear death...rather dying alone and forgotten.

I do believe in reincarnation and that life 'flows on' continuously, and that death as something finite does not even exist.

[EL GALLO]

I think death is the best thing that can happen to anyone, however it is one of the worst things that can happen to those who stay alive and love the one who died. Life is nice but there are some ugly things about it that make death a real gift. Also I think that living forever would be boring.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by EL GALLO
I think death is the best thing that can happen to anyone,
If that had been true then all of us would have preffered to die,not to live.

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

I don't think he's referring to an 'un-timely' death.
Just death in general - Death of the physical body. It is meant to be re-cyclable - part of the cycle of life on earth. If every thing physical were static, Life would never change and grow, so we (or the earth) really WOULD be dead.

As for preferring to die - or not - it is not a choice - we stay alive due to the inherent survival instinct (if it is working order) and we die when our biological system degenerates. It is not part of our 'free will' brain.

(I think I'll go back and re-read 'The Picture of Dorian Gray' to see what the message is. I don't remember at the moment.)

[Wonko The Sane]

To quote SadBot:

Guy at Grou Therapy: He isn't really gone. Death is NOT the end.

SadBot: No. It's just the end for whoever dies.

[Eliot]

As some of you have said, I'm not scared of death itself, but I am scared of dying very painfully, or very lonely. That just seems horrible to me. Though, I do know where I'm going after I die: Heaven!! Cool! :)

I've almost died three times in my life! :eek:


If I was going to die today, I'd want to finish this post, finish my can of Pepsi, and then use the bathroom, just so I'm prepared :D ;)

Ways I would want to die:
In my sleep.
Sniper bullet right inbetween the eyes, you wouldn't even feel it. You'd be dead before anything else could happen.

Ways I wouldn't want to die:
Automobile accident (I was in a small one about two days ago, kinda scary),
drowning,
being crushed,
being shot, and then taking a long time to die,
disease,
and falling off a building and surving it, and THEN dying.

There's many other ways I wouldn't want to die, but not enough time.

[Finduilas]

Hey,Eliot,don't be so pessimistic!
And don't get so deeply in the Death Matters,you're just too young to even think of death.
We should live until death comes by itself.Live as if tomorrow you will die but don't think of this Death!

[Eliot]

Um, yeah, okay. :)

[Rogue666666]

LoL.

As a Christian I have no need to fear death. That does not mean I don't experience fear in times of danger, such as right before a car crash, but on a day to day bases it never even crosses my mind.

In fact , even though I live in a country which is very much terrified by the latest epidemic, ( SARS, I live in Taiwan. ) I have nevver had even a trace of concern over it. I do though tend to despise those who are overyly afraid of it.

[Mahal]

No...I do not fear death it happens to everybody. Its necessary for all because otherwise we would overcrowd(that wouldn't be much fun now would it) I don't know what will happen but i'll see then.(maybe it is a paradise with beautyfull chicks and stuff like that...Now that would be cool :D)

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

God gave us this gift of a short life for experiencing physical beauty. After you die, your body goes to dust, so what is the use of beautiful chicks. When the body is dead, you may still have the capacity to "feel" the experience of beauty, generalised within the feeling of "love", but the sexual experience will be obsolete since there is no need for reproduction there. (duh...nothing like stating the obvious :o )

[HelplessModAddi]

I don't believe in time. Therefore I don't believe in death.

But on a less metaphysical sense, its just pointless to fear death. We are all terminal cases. Even our cultures. Even Earth. Deal with it. Do what you think would make your life most fulfilling. Have fun. That's why God put us on this Earth: to have a ball.

Or if you don't like that line of reasoning, how about this? When we die, our body is slowly consumed by parasites. These parasites will either feed other small organisms, or they will fertilize the ground with our remains. New plants will grow to be eaten by more small animals. These animals will inevitably be eaten themselves, perhaps by humans. The material in the humans and animals and plants help them reproduce, to create more humans and animals and plants. Life from death. Even if the sun explodes and consumes all creatures on Earth, sooner or later the remains of our solar system will compress to form another star and some planets, that will nurture their own lifeforms. Nothing can stop it. If the entire universe ceases to exist one day, still at some point there must have been a black hole formed that had the right properties to act as a Big Bang singularity, creating another, new universe somewhere off in hyperspace. You see? Life from death. We are all phoenixes.

The answer is: I don't give a hoot about "death."

[HelplessModAddi]

Ooops dbl post

[Eriol]

Originally posted by HelplessModAddi
I don't believe in time. Therefore I don't believe in death.


Did you ever change your mind? How can you change your mind if there is no time?

There was a time in which you did not believe that, right? How can there "be a time" if there is no time?

;)

[HelplessModAddi]

Explanation. I don't believe time is what we see it to be. I don't believe we actually dwell at one point in time, but rather our bodies are stretched out across the temporal dimension as they are across the three physical dimensions. I believe the past has a physical, concrete existence, and if we could just "turn around" we would find the past right where we left it. The construction of our minds forces us to percieve the one temporal dimension in a linear fasion, and it keeps us from even feeling the other temporal dimension.

All pasts, all presents, all futures, and all the lines that may be drawn from one point to another are layed out ahead of us, behind us, and to our sides. We are forced to proceed at a certain speed, never deviating from a forward path more than ninety degrees. If we reach the end of our bodies at a certain point, then either we will continue forward into emptiness, or the force that constricts us to go forward will cease.

A lot of people look at the future in a way that lays out the possible courses than chooses from the most likely of them. What a lot of people don't do is look at the present and even the past this way. There need not be only one course up to the present. There need not be only one present set of conditions.

Just because I don't believe in time, doesn't mean I don't believe in causality. If there was causality but no time, all actions and reactions would occur simultanously. Thats all there is to it.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by HelplessModAddi
A lot of people look at the future in a way that lays out the possible courses than chooses from the most likely of them. What a lot of people don't do is look at the present and even the past this way. There need not be only one course up to the present. There need not be only one present set of conditions.


So, you believe that we can change the past -- or the present -- just as we can choose from alternate futures. Is that it?

[HelplessModAddi]

Yep. Its just a heckavalot harder, because the principle of entropy forces us to percieve time in one direction.

[HelplessModAddi]

Yep. Its just a heckavalot harder, because the principle of entropy forces us to percieve time in one direction.

[Eriol]

Oh yes, entropy... of course, any biological system runs "against" entropy, so to speak. But even assuming "full entropy", if it forces us to think of time in one direction, then how can we beat it? "FORCES" is a pretty strong word.

And another thing -- did you ever change the past? or just the memory of the past? Is there a difference?

(If you want to drop it, that's fine with me, but I enjoy talking this kind of talk :D)

[Beorn]

When I first saw this thread, I was astounded: A question on my feelings that I could not answer. I had no idea what my answer would be. I thought, and I thought, and I realized, I was afraid to address the topic.

Well, I've come to a conclusion: I am afraid of death. I have not lived my full life. I have not had the fun I have planned.

I have not gone skydiving.
I have not gone scuba diving.
I haven't sold a product I created.
I haven't been a philanthropist.
I haven't owned a car.
I haven't owned my own property.
I haven't had a job that supports myself.
I haven't climbed a mountain.

There is so much that I haven't done, that I want to do. I want to be proud of my accomplishments. Although, I am proud now, I want to accomplish more. I want to do everything listed above. I want to take risks, go on adventures, and learn lessons. I want to make mistakes. I want to finish a NYT crossword.

There's so much I want to do, but haven't done yet. I am afraid of death, because it would signal that I am not good enough, or strong enough to conquer challenges I've set for myself.

I want to do more than I've done. I suppose I will always want to. I've heard something like "Live your life so when you're born, you're crying and the people around you are happy, in the middle you're happy and so are the people around you, and when you're dying, you're happy and everyone around you is crying". I probably won't be able to do that because I will never stop wanting to do more.

I am afraid of death.

[Sador]

I'm not looking forward to death, but I'm not sitting around freaking out about it either.
I happen to believe that death is the end. My personality/ego/soul(whatever) will stop working when the body which contains it stops working. Death is the price we pay for life.
Pain and suffering scare me more than simple non-existence. My experience of death will, I believe, be the same as my experience prior to birth(ie.nothing) Nothing to fear in that.

[ely]

I believe that after death you will be re-born in this world again. I don't think that I fear death, I just don't like it to happen - I'm about to finish school and don't want to start it all over again... actually the small things are also an important part of why I don't want to die yet: I won't know then how the book I'm currently reading ends, I can't see that movie that's on TV tomorrow, and I can't use that really lovely avatar I made for this forum... And, of course, I don't want the people I love to be sad...

But why should I really FEAR death? It comes anyway, whether I fear it or not. But I do fear the pain that might come before my death...

[TheFool]

the only worry you got is dyin' - and if that happens, you won't know about it anyway..
Said by that most philosophical of characters... 'Bunny' in Platoon :D . It sticks in my head though.

I totally don't fear 'death' as in the actual transition from being 'alive' to being 'dead' (though I agree with ely & Sador, may it be as painless as possible!) It's pretty fascinating when I think about it.. I keep going round in circles thinking about memory, sleep, consciousness etc :confused:. I think I need to watch Donnie Darko again :cool:

[Estrella]

People simply fear what they do not understand, and if you cannot understand it, you must simply accept it as a mystery. The way I see it, we're all gonna be worm food anyway at some point; why waste your life fearing and fighting the inevitable (sp?)? I'm really not sure what happens after death, if anything. But I suppose we'll all find out one day, so we should just enjoy the ride and raise as much heil as possible on the way. :p

[RosiePosie]

I just saw this thread and, uhm, I think I avoided it semi-consciously up to now. I've been scared to death of death for a very long time; at times I like taking these chances to talk about it with others, 'cause it helps me relax and get back in control of myself. I mean, when I said "scared to death" I wsn't going for a lame joke, I've really had big problems with this and still have them. I read the previous posts and I must say Wonko expressed exactly what I feel. I sometimes have panic attacks with hysterical crisises, I feel like I can't breathe properly, I lay in darkness and have some kind of terror that I'll stop breathing in sleep. I'm afraid of death, of the nothingness. I was raised Catholic, but by the years I just lost my faith. I mean, little by little I became unable to behold the idea of God, oto keep believing it. To keep thinking of that as a good thing, too. I'm terrified of the notion of eternity, whether it means immortal life, in any sense, or eternal death. And I'm scared of dying, too, and of getting old.
I think that it's very true that part of my fears come from my having never been near death. There's also the fact that for the longest time I tried to keep those fears to myself. I often think I'd need a professional help. Most times I try to not think about it, but it's usually the fear to be afraid that causes itself, you know? Some days I just want to talk about it, then things get back to normal proportions.

I'm not like that all the time; every so long, say, two or three years, I get depressional like that for a few months.
Do I sound loony or what?

[Turin]

I don't fear death cause I no where I'm going and theres nothing in this world
that I really desire.

[RosiePosie]

Wow, that sounds very sure.
That's my problem. I agree with everyone who quoted Tolkien, about how death is the gift to mortals. Point is, I think the purpose of life is get to the point where death is the gift, not because life sucks too much, but because you find the sense of things and you're at peace, and you're living "in fullnes", like someone used to tell me. When you live every day like if it were the last, and the first as the same time, and you have no regrets and no complaints. But, I think it's something you get to. It's a maturity you acquire, learning life's lessons.
And I can't come to terms that there are so many chances that you never get to that point. Then life's wasted. And then, where's the sense?

[Wonko The Sane]

A close friend of the family just died...it was so sad...to see her son and husband...I just...:(
Sad.
I hate death...it's ****...It makes me sad.
And yes, I'm afraid..because on the one hand I can't believe that there's no heaven...because good people like her can't just find nothing at the end...
But then again...I'm so scared there isn't one. :(

[Valdarmyr]

I don't fear my own death...I'm too focused on the here and now, but I'm not that way to avoid thinking about that inevitable moment...that day will come, but the purpose of my life is to live it creatively and to honor the Creator (call it whoever or whatever you will) who made this world. Sometimes when death comes to mind, I remind myself, "that moment will take care of itself (probably many, many years from now)...take care of what needs to be done in THIS moment." We can get so wrapped up in the future.

I do believe in reincarnation. A spiritual teacher once told me, "Nothing that is of value can ever be lost," and that seems to me to be true. Why would the Creator make us, incredible souls, only to have us slip away after one lifetime? I believe we are too valuable to Life for that to happen, and there's too much spiritual work to be done on earth by those who see the work is there to be done! Not to be too preachy, but the Bible says Man (male and female) was "made in the image and likeness of God." I thinks that means we have an eternal quality.

[Eriol]

Oh, Death, where is thy sting?

We Christians are a lucky, lucky bunch. Death has no sting; Christ has taken it out.

I can relate very much to those who fear death, for it has a very big sting. Not for me, though, not anymore.

:)

[Turin]

Yep:D.

[Estrella]

ahh.... shakespear would be proud. i agree with Valdamyr ( cool name by the way); i too beleive in reincarnation.... but we should have fun with every life, no matter how many times we are reborn, it's not like we can fight it. and i also beleive death only has a sting if you expect and beleive it will,like when you expect your soup to be cold, so it tastes cold. It's just freaking yourself out mentially.

ahh so much spirtual work to be done Valdamyr, i personally would've chucked the project a long time ago, but thankfully i'm not the one in charge.

[RosiePosie]

Valdarmyr's is just the kind of spiritual serenity I think is the purpose to aim to. It's nothing fancy, just a pure and simple way of life. It's good, it's the opposite of the time-wasting mind-jerkoffs that take the good out of life. Whatever's beyond, I think, the worst we can do is spend the now worrying about that, when we should know that there's nothing we can do to even know it, and yet we can't help but wonder and worry.

[Wonko The Sane]

I'm a Christian too, but it doesn't mean I don't fear death.

Even if I do believe in a life everlasting after our life on Earth, it still scares me to enter into some sort of unknown.
Plus, I have that sneaking, imperfect doubt: What if this is all there is?

I was thinking about it last night...and I just thought..."Why not just give up now? Nothing really actually matters." I'm having a lot of problems with money right now (mostly that there's not enough to get me to England...) and I was thinking last night how pointless it is to worry about money...cos it's so worthless...it doesn't matter in the long run.

"The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power,
And all that beauty, all that wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike the inevitable hour.
The paths of glory lead but to the grave.

Nor you, ye proud, impute to these the fault,
If Memory o'er their tomb no trophies raise,
Where through the long-drawn aisle and fretted vault
The pealing anthem swells the note of praise.

Can storied urn or animated bust
Back to its mansion call the fleeting breath?
Can Honour's voice provoke the silent dust,
Or Flattery soothe the dull cold ear of Death?"
~Excerpt from Thomas Gray's "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard"

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
I'm a Christian too, but it doesn't mean I don't fear death.

Even if I do believe in a life everlasting after our life on Earth, it still scares me to enter into some sort of unknown.
Plus, I have that sneaking, imperfect doubt: What if this is all there is?

I was thinking about it last night...and I just thought..."Why not just give up now? Nothing really actually matters." I'm having a lot of problems with money right now (mostly that there's not enough to get me to England...) and I was thinking last night how pointless it is to worry about money...cos it's so worthless...it doesn't matter in the long run.


Being a Christian is very hard, right Wonks? I know how you feel. Many times I feel like just giving up and committing suicide. I know, it sounds really stupid, but that's how I feel a lot. Unfortunately, God never promised an easy path. What we need to do in the times that we're very doubtful or down, is trust Him. I know, it's VERY hard to do that. I've been through times when I see absolutely no point to life. I know how difficult it is to trust him during the trials. But, you just gotta trust him. Just out of curiosity, when did you get saved?

[Wonko The Sane]

I know exactly how you feel...it's very hard sometimes...and sometimes it feels like giving up is easier.
I was baptized when I was just a baby. I've been Christian all my life, and I was confirmed when I was 17.
What about you?

[RosiePosie]

I could say I'm Catholic, except I haven't really felt like it in a very long time. I just don't feel like I believe in God, not that I believe he doesn't exist, I really do not *believe*. I lost my faith. And I'm not at all for the kind of reasoning that says "how can you believe in God when there's so much suffering in the world?", there's some logical error in that. On the contrary, I often believe that the reason I'm such an agnostic is just that I, personally, have never actually realized or felt pain, the kind of pain that life brings to you. It kinda all seems, I dunno, detached, unreal. Like I can make billions of reasonings and have a gazzillion of opinions, but in the end it seems almost a fake, because it's all paper and abstraction.

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
I know exactly how you feel...it's very hard sometimes...and sometimes it feels like giving up is easier.
I was baptized when I was just a baby. I've been Christian all my life, and I was confirmed when I was 17.
What about you?

Oh, are you Catholic? I'm Baptist. I became a born-again Christian when I was 6 years old. I was baptized at the age of 12.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by RosiePosie
I could say I'm Catholic, except I haven't really felt like it in a very long time. I just don't feel like I believe in God, not that I believe he doesn't exist, I really do not *believe*. I lost my faith. And I'm not at all for the kind of reasoning that says "how can you believe in God when there's so much suffering in the world?", there's some logical error in that. On the contrary, I often believe that the reason I'm such an agnostic is just that I, personally, have never actually realized or felt pain, the kind of pain that life brings to you. It kinda all seems, I dunno, detached, unreal. Like I can make billions of reasonings and have a gazzillion of opinions, but in the end it seems almost a fake, because it's all paper and abstraction.

This will sound very odd, but try praying for faith. I mean, pray that God will give you faith. I am assuming you believe in your head that God exists, but you can't feel that in your heart; if I'm right, ask for faith and God will give it to you.

It sounds odd but it works :).

[Wonko The Sane]

Yes, Eliot I'm Catholic.

And Eriol...I've tried that...I feel the same way Rosie does...I feel in my head he exists...but in my heart I don't believe...

Anyway...praying for faith doesn't help me...maybe I'm not doing it right. :rolleyes:

[RosiePosie]

Originally posted by Eriol
This will sound very odd, but try praying for faith. I mean, pray that God will give you faith. I am assuming you believe in your head that God exists, but you can't feel that in your heart; if I'm right, ask for faith and God will give it to you.

It sounds odd but it works :).

That's what I did when I started having doubts. I was actually a kid, maybe 12, it was easy to pray God, or the Holy Mary, you know, but the fact is I had questions and doubts in my head. I thought things like, isn't it too easy for all of us to be confiding in the idea of a God above? Let's say, the same reason I'd believe in God is also one for not believing. I find it all senselss, wanting of a structure, when I try to picture the Universe, or the flowing of Time, or the simplest feeling of joy or pain, the smallest ray of light, without putting in the picture some kind of... I don't know, something else, a scope, a motive, a colour... a gluing of all these things together. But the answer doesn't lie in my head. The most I might find in there is a poiunt of interest for an analyst.
Maybe I put too much effort in it. I have a problem of p0anick attacks,I know that. But my lack of faith can't be the actual cause for that, it's just a triggering factor and not even the only one, in the last years.

I think I should take the matter in a different perspective. All in all, I've been *not* thinking of it because it breings me a deal of unwanted reactions. I think I should come to terms with that before I can face the mystical aspect. But I haven't really made any steps ahead.

[Eriol]

Ah, but now it seems you have problems with the intellectual belief proper, as opposed to only the heart. You have doubts about God's existence. Or perhaps, you don't doubt His existence, but His love. This goes for Wonko too. Are you both sure you have no doubts whatsoever about these intellectual matters?

Just to clarify the issue, I'll make a brief distinction: "belief" is intellectual, a matter of the head; "faith" is a matter of the heart.

So, are you sure you have the belief in God? You see, perhaps you have the will to believe, you want Him to exist, but you are not quite convinced yet. Then the prayer for faith won't help much, because you doubt there is someone listening; and wishful thinking is not good enough.

If this is the problem -- belief (as opposed to faith) you should simply think hard about it. Try to answer the question in your head. If you do it with the utmost sincerity -- and why shouldn't you? This is the most important question anyone can ask -- you'll be fine, even if you momentarily disbelieve in God completely.

The way to deal with unbelief is to look at the question in the face and deal with it. One way or the other.

Good luck, and I'll help in any way I can, both of you :).

[RosiePosie]

Actually, if there's a way I doubt God's existence it's with my heart. I was trying to express how my brain fails to provide me with a convincing picture of the universe with God in it. And, if I believe in God, his love goes without saying. I was more than once in conversations about the nature of God with friends of mine. One of them expressed her theory that if God exists she supposes he has to be watching this world like one would do an aquarium, without any actual feelings for its inhabitants, just a slight amusement about they're circling here and there.

I found it perfectly incoherent. Many think like that. I think this kind of opinion comes from a degree of bitterness from past sorrows. This friend of mine, for instance, has never had a problem confirming to me that at 26 she feels much older, because of the many health problems - not tragic but no simple quests, either- she's had and still has; because of the way she's gone making a lot of experience with interpersonal and romantic and sexual relationships, including a badly failed marriage, and she came out with the conviction that happiness is some kind of miracle that can come true once every 100,000 cases. I totally disagree with her opinion and she's the first to offer it in an ironical way, but a lot of people figure the eventuality of God like of some sadistic voyeur.
Sorry, I tend to lose the point of discussions. I think my point was that I don't think so.

I prayed for faith when I felt like I was losing it. By the years I found theological examples and definitions of how the devil's work is the distruction of faith, and Temptation is the faltering of faith (St. Teresa). But when I started feeling like I was losing mine I felt like looking inside myself and asking for God's guidance wasn't enough anymore to make me feel safe, or rather, to make me feel Him. I can't explain it fully, because it was a long time ago, I couldn't have put it exactly in words even then, and anyway it 's been many years of half reflections. I can't answer you with philosophy, because it's not an abstract subject to me and it's not one I'm able to word. It's my psychology, let's say. I can't tell you where my thoughts end and my subconscious begins, more so than in any conversation I might ever entertain. It's complicated.

[Eriol]

Well, I can give you a foolproof medicine for that. It's not easy, but it is bound to make you regain your faith, especially if used in conjunction with praying.

Do the Works of Love. Love your neighbor. All of them; all neighbors. Love those least lovable. Love especially those people you would instinctively despise or ignore. Look at them and see the image of God there, and work towards this love. It's not a "feeling", not abstract -- it is the concretest thing imaginable. Work for your neighbor in the spirit of Love, and pray for God's grace of faith.

It is probably the hardest way to do it, we being fallen people :(. But it is foolproof.

[RosiePosie]

You know, that sounds exactly like I'd imagine a protestant shepherd's speech would do, if I'd ever heard one. I don't mean in a bad way, of course, what would be "bad" about that? It's just like if in that simple advice there was the spirit of that kind of religion.
I'm having problems to express myself again, haven't I? :p

[Eriol]

Originally posted by RosiePosie
You know, that sounds exactly like I'd imagine a protestant shepherd's speech would do, if I'd ever heard one. I don't mean in a bad way, of course, what would be "bad" about that? It's just like if in that simple advice there was the spirit of that kind of religion.
I'm having problems to express myself again, haven't I? :p

Protestants don't have an infallible magisterium of error... :D

They can be, and often are, very much right. Catholics should pay a lot of attention to them; of course, they are also very much wrong in some things :(. But we'll be reunited eventually :).

I actually got this piece of advice (about the Works of Love) from Dostoevsky and Kierkegaard, and it works :).

[RosiePosie]

Let me make myself clear. Beside the fact that I've always found Kirkergaard an aggravating fellow -I remember making assumptions with a friend of mine in high school about the nature of his famous "childhood trauma"-, it isn't in philosophy that I can find the answer to my problems. At the time in my life where I dedicated myself to philosophy the most I went into a months long cycle of depression. Feuerbach was the one to cheer me up, go figure. To put it in logics, my mind goes like this: humans fear death, and other things. There's a part of humans that goes into metaphysics. They imagine gods. They make up a Creator Being and shape it in perfection. This Being is a Father, protects them, punishes them and is responsible for them. They don't have to worry about the things beyond their league, there's someone taking care of that. That's what kids do. If you don't have to face what you can't defeat you don't have to worry about anything; you don't grow up, of course, you always trust your godly parachute to cover for you, that's the downside. Now, that's Feuerbach's opinion about God, and it isn't the part that cheers me up, but it's a start.
Who's to say that isn't a possibility? It's a very respectable theory, no logical faults in it. Isn't it too easy to believe that Father God is going to catch us no matter what?
Remember, we're still in my mind.
Now, maybe God exists, maybe not. Maybe it's just like us to put it that simply. We're just humans and we speculate the superhuman as if we could contemplate all of the possibilities. Maybe, and it sounds even more reasonable, there's something else entirely in the proportions of the universe, something we are inept to even picture. Maybe, maybe, maybe... You know what? You can start listing the odds and keep going until you're old and gray, but fact is, there's no answer, because noone ever went there, snapped a couple photos and came back to tell the tale -not that anyone would be believed if that ever happend- and, conclusion, the point is that we have to see for ourselves. Not one of us is ever going to find that answer on the books. If one believed that he'd just be deluding himself.

[Eriol]

I agree, completely -- even to the point that Kierkegaard can be aggravating (but have you read Works of Love?). Yes, there is no way to prove God absolutely to the satisfaction of a logical mind -- but then again, there is no way to prove the validity of reason, or the existence of reality, to that same mind.

All enquiries on the origin of the "God notion" skip the important question -- is it true? Quite possibly the "God notion" is a result of human insecurity, but -- is it true? Faulty origins are no guarantee of error.

The answer is not in the books, or in philosophy -- it is in loving your neighbor. I only got pointers from the books, not answers.

[Wonko The Sane]

I agree with you in so many ways Rosie...*has forgotten your real name that you asked us to call you...*

It's so hard...but I have doubts in my heart too...

I WANT to believe...I WANT it to be real...I don't like to think of an endless nothingness after death...

It SCARES me...


But at the same time when I look at it with my head AND my heart...it just seems so implausible...

[Snaga]

Wow what a thread.

Anna, your posts are wonderfully eloquent and extremely interesting. You have an amazing sense of irony, and its beautiful to behold.:)

I must say I am entirely comfortable with myself as a random agglomeration of stardust, of no significance whatsoever. I don't feel daunted but inspired by the wonderous scale of the emptiness of the universe. That I might one day go back to nothingness isnt something that frightens me. Sometimes I think sooner might be better. But mostly I think of the people I love, and I think I best hang around because it would probably make them happy if I do, and because they are still here I want to see how they get on and help them if I can.

I'm not unusually brave I don't think. I fear pain a lot more than death. I really don't like pain at all. So a slow painful death would not be great, but it would be the bit where you are still alive to feel the pain that would be worst. And after that, death itself might be quite good.

I think I fear not living life to the full most of all. If just at the end, my life flashes before me and I think: 'what a waste!' that would be the worst thing.

[Wonko The Sane]

*Wishes she had that courage, and strength of conviction*

*sigh*

I don't know why...but I'm afraid of nothingness...I'm afraid of just going to sleep and never waking up. Maybe it's more that I'm afraid that those people that I love that have died or will die before me, that everyone says I'll see again in heaven, I'll never see again...That they're gone.
I mean...it's comforting to think that they're not gone...that it's not over...that some day we'll be reunited...but if we're not...if they're just gone.
That hurts too much for me to think about...

[Ciryaher]

I do not fear death. I would not fear it even if I believed there is no God.

With God, there is a positive and eternal existence. Simple.

Without God, existence simply stops; ceases to be. There is no point about worrying what you leave behind because you won't be around very long to worry about it. Face death. Bite the bullet. If there is nothing, then you have nothing to fear...and fearing nothing is very silly ;)

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Ciryaher
I do not fear death. I would not fear it even if I believed there is no God.
With God, there is a positive and eternal existence. Simple.
Without God, existence simply stops; ceases to be. There is no point about worrying what you leave behind because you won't be around very long to worry about it. Face death. Bite the bullet. If there is nothing, then you have nothing to fear...and fearing nothing is very silly ;)
Good point, Cir.
I think most people fear dying because they will miss living on this earth, not necessarily because they fear what's beyond. Someone who has lived only 20 years will be more afraid of dying then someone who has lived a good life up to 80 years. Some at that age, especially in bad health just want their life to be over with.

[omnipotent_elf]

i dont fear death. I would rather enjoy my life then fearing something that is inevitable. Death will happen no matter what, so why fear it?

[Bethelarien]

I don't fear death. In my church, we know that we will live on, even if only in spirit, and that we will soon be resurrected as perfected beings, receiving again our bodies.

So death isn't permament--it's only for a short while, and then we have bodies and are physically alive again. So what is there to fear?

Having had loved ones die, I know that it is difficult for their loved ones. That is my only fear about death--the pain and grief that I know will be left behind when I return to my Heavenly Father. But death is a part of life, and is one of the most natural things in the world.

I do not fear it.

[RosiePosie]

Originally posted by snaga1

Anna, your posts are wonderfully eloquent and extremely interesting. You have an amazing sense of irony, and its beautiful to behold.:)


Please, don't be shy, share your feelings :D

Wonko T S, I know exactly what you mean. Has it ever happened to you that you lay down at night and suddenly get overwhelmed with doubts like "what if I stopped breathing all of a sudden?"? I found the biggest mistake is to not talk about it. Well, I also concluded that I need a doctor's help with that. I'm not sure. Maybe the fear of death is a part of our brain, of our life. Maybe all the times I said that I thought the purpose of life was to learn to outgrow the fear of death I was more right than I thought. Maybe it isn't just a methaphysical thing; I figured that in a way the path of life entails reaching that kind of serenity of mind. Maybe that's literally so and our mind, in a clinical sense, is supposed to go through a phase of doubts and adjustment like that of puberty that makes you an adult aware of death but able to cope with it.


I guess I missed it.