The Silmarillion Ch.#7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

[Ithrynluin]

I am doing this intro in Glorfindel1187's stead, since he seems to have disappeared.

1.

In that time were made those things that afterwards were most renowned of all the works of the Elves. For Fëanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Blessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable. Then he began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils.

Was Fëanor thinking of the well being of all Arda, or was this only a secret, selfish, greedy idea - to have the fairest jewels all for himself?

2.

Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.

Isn't this similar to the One Ring of Sauron? Sure, the One could be, and was, destroyed by fire, but otherwise "no violence could mar it or break it", right? Do you think that making "unbreakable" objects was one of the teachings that the Noldor and the Maiar of Aulë received from the Great Smith himself?

3.

All who dwelt in Aman were filled with wonder and delight at the work of Fëanor. And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered; and Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them.

And how does Beren fit into the "no mortal flesh" category?

Do you think that Varda's hallow was effective? Morgoth snatched the Silmarils and didn't seem to mind Varda's hallows too much. Shouldn't Varda have expanded her hallows to "no evil might touch them OR KEEP THEM" since Morgoth simply installed the Silmarils into his iron crown and voila!

4.

When he saw that many leaned towards him, Melkor would often walk among them, and amid his fair words others were woven, so subtly that many who heard them believed in recollection that they arose from their own thought. Visions he would conjure in their hearts of the mighty realms that they could have ruled at their own will, in power and freedom in the East; and then whispers went abroad that the Valar had brought the Eldar to Aman because of their jealousy, fearing that the beauty of the Quendi and the makers' power that Ilúvatar had bequeathed to them would grow too great for the Valar to govern, as the Elves waxed and spread over the wide lands of the world.

Was therefore Melkor the source of some Elves' adventurous spirits, like Galadriel, Fingon and Finrod? Or were they like that by themselves, and Melkor's lies only inflamed their desires to a great extent?

5.

In those days, moreover, though the Valar knew indeed of the coming of Men that were to be, the Elves as yet knew naught of it; for Manwë had not revealed it to them. But Melkor spoke to them in secret of Mortal Men, seeing how the silence of the Valar might be twisted to evil.

Do you think there was any special reason behind this?
Seems like keeping the Elves in the dark regarding Men was a bad idea, since Melkor twisted it to his evil purposes.

6.

For Fëanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own.

The Silmarils would not exist if it weren't for:

- Fëanor, who wrought them
- Yavanna, who "sang" the Two Trees into being
- Nienna, who "watered" the trees with her tears
- Aulë, who taught the Noldor

Can we say that either of these contributed more to the Silmarils? Did Fëanor really have the right to keep them so selfishly and pride himself with them so much with them?

7.

High princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions.

Why is Finarfin not included here? He seems to have kept a distance from these feuds at all times. Was he less tainted by the lies of Melkor?

8.

Now the Valar were sitting in council before their gates, fearing the lengthening of the shadows, when the messengers came from Formenos. At once Oromë and Tulkas sprang up, but even as they set out in pursuit messengers came from Eldamar, telling that Melkor had fled through the Calacirya, and from the hill of Túna the Elves had seen him pass in wrath as a thundercloud. And they said that thence he had turned northward, for the Teleri in Alqualondë had seen his shadow going by their haven towards Araman.

Realizing how Melkor was out and about in Aman (and up to no good, obviously), and taking into consideration all the lies and discord he sowed, don't you think that the Valar should have fortified their realm against his possible assaults/further evil deeds? They could have rallied their forces and set a heavy watch on all important passes, like the Calacirya. Were the Valar not prudent enough - could they have prevented Melkor doing one of his most horrible deeds - destroying the Two Trees?

Any comments, additional questions and your own observations on this chapter, are more than welcome.:)

[Nóm]

1) I do not have a belief on this. It seems Tolkien left it open for us. Yavanna does later say that Feanor was foresighted. Did she know this, or was it assumed? I am not sure we can know. I do see one small indication that it may have been foresight though.

2) Do you think that making "unbreakable" objects was one of the teachings that the Noldor and the Maiar of Aulë received from the Great Smith himself?

No. I suppose it is possible, but what creation of Aule's do we hear of that is unbreakable? None that I recall. Melkor broke the Earth that he had part in the shaping of. That is, he tainted everything. One might say that Feanor was only able to attain unbreakable silmarils because they were made in the Unmarred land of Valinor, but this would not hold true of the One Ring.

I believe that Feanor's jewels were unbreakable by his study and craftsmanship alone.

Now it coud also be that it was not Iluvatar's will that the Valar's creations be unbreakable, rather than that the Valar were not capable of doing this, or teaching it. The fact that Feanor made these jewels unbreakable could be an indication that foresight was involved.

I also think it was such a necessity that the One Ring be unbreakable except by the Fires of Orodruin, that it was unbreakable because it needed to be for the story first, and because of Sauron's motives second. I wouldn't say that of the Silmarils though, as I doubt anyone would have broke them in the first age, and secondly because they of such importance they they need to last until the end.

3)And how does Beren fit into the "no mortal flesh" category?
Perhaps the same way that he fit into the "No mortal may enter Doriath" catagory. Now Melian had great foresight, and she knew that a man of Beor's kin would come to Doriath one day. I take this to mean that it was all doomed, there are other indications as well. Luthien was doomed when she met Beren. The jewels were holy and at the heart of all the Doom of the first age and maybe even all the Doom that would ever follow after. I really don't question that Beren was able to handle a silmaril. I suppose that Iluvatar had a hand in it.

Do you think that Varda's hallow was effective?
Yes
Well, we know the Valar often did things which may seem to us folly. It could be that Varda did not have the power to hallow the silmarils to such an extent that Morgoth could not handle them for a short time. I think it was Iluvatar's will that Morgoth take these, but perhaps more importantly, I think the hallowing was effective because it resulted in the jewels being lost; the jewels attained by Feanor's sons were lost because they were hallowed. I think this was ment to be. It could also be that Varda had foresight, or just predicted that one day people would fight bitterly over the things, and thought it best that evil deeds should not be rewarded.


4) I'll answer this with a post I made in the thread Noldor: Exiled by will or necessity? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=9978).



It is said that the Vanyar held Melkor in suspicion, for they dwelt in the light of the trees and were content, whereas Melkor gave small heed to the Teleri thinking they didn't have enough to offer him, but the Noldor were open to him and delighted in the knowledge gained from him.

This gives me the impression that if the Noldor had been content, they would have held Melkor in suspicion as did the Vanyar. Were the Vanyar content only because they lived nearer the trees? I don't think so, but the wording can suggest that, depending upon how it's read. We know that they were content to dwell in that light while the Noldor were not who wishing to see the stars again ended up in Tirion and didn't go back.
So the wording may instead suggest that the Vanyar were content as is evident by their dwelling in the treelight, rather than that the treelight dwelling made them content.
It is my belief that it was both of these things; being more content the Vanyar wished to dwell in the light, and being it that light furthered their contentment.

I am not sure that the Noldor would eventually have returned to Middle-earth, but I think it is most likely.

As far as pride being a part of their character, we do have this:

High princes were Feanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwe, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions. Then Melkor set new lies abroad...
and then...
And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons...
Maybe this pride would have come out eventually because of something else. I don't know what would have brought out this kind of pride or anger, and especially a distrust of the Valar, if not for Melkor, but I suspect Feanor would have been at the heart of it.

Now since I think it was necessery that the Noldor return to Middle-earth to fight against Morgoth, I can not imagine what necessity there would have been if not for Melkor's release. It could be the meeting with men, the Noldor were faster in friendship with men than were the Sindar. But I believe the release of Melkor, the making of the silmarils, the darkening of Valinor, and the Flight of the Noldor were doomed.

I also think that it was the different character of the kindreds which caused Manwe and Varda to love more the Vanyar and Aule more the Noldor. But I think that the character of these kindreds was further changed by the guidence they recieved from the Valar who most delighted in them. So I would say that the characteristics of the Kindreds were both the cause of and the result of the love and friendship of the
Vala(r) to whom they were most beloved.

Another thing that I think caused something that in turn effected that cause to increase, is the Noldor's relationship with Melkor in Aman.
Melkor's lies and deceptions enhanced those characteristics of the Noldor that drew him to them.

Now there is more of my answer to be found there.

5)Do you think there was any special reason behind this?
Seems like keeping the Elves in the dark regarding Men was a bad idea, since Melkor twisted it to his evil purposes.
They may not have suspected that he would twist it, but even so... it wouldn't be the only time the Valar failed to take action to stop or to prevent from happening, the evil of Morgoth.

As for why the Valar did not tell the elves of the coming of men... I don't know. I can't think of a great reason. It could be they didn't know how to tell them, and answer all the questions that would follow, and so they just put it off.

6)The Silmarils would not exist if it weren't for:

- Fëanor, who wrought them
- Yavanna, who made the Two Trees
- Varda, who "provided" the light

Can we say that either of these contributed more to the Silmarils? Did Fëanor really have the right to keep them so selfishly and pride himself with them so much with them?

I say Feanor contributed most to the silmarils.
I'd say Iluvatar provided the light. I imagine the Valar can not create light. An interesting thing found in Myth's Transformed is that Iluvatar actually gives Varda some holy light.
The trees provided everyone with light and I suppose they could do what they would with it, so Feanor had a right to keep some of the light. I think it was selfish of him though, so much so that it was wrong of him morally, but not legally. I imagine if the silmarils were not rightly Feanor's, then the Valar could have demanded them.

7) I think Finarfin just had a different personality, more wise than his older brothers.

8)...could they have prevented Melkor doing one of his most horrible deeds - destroying the Two Trees?

I think they could have done it as much as they could have stopped him at any other time.


As three great jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Feanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made.

[Ithrynluin]

Now it coud also be that it was not Iluvatar's will that the Valar's creations be unbreakable, rather than that the Valar were not capable of doing this, or teaching it. The fact that Feanor made these jewels unbreakable could be an indication that foresight was involved.

How could foresight be of any help in making unbreakable jewels?

No. I suppose it is possible, but what creation of Aule's do we hear of that is unbreakable? None that I recall. Melkor broke the Earth that he had part in the shaping of. That is, he tainted everything. One might say that Feanor was only able to attain unbreakable silmarils because they were made in the Unmarred land of Valinor, but this would not hold true of the One Ring.

Aule's creation was the Earth, the continents. Now Melkor did raise new mountains and change the shape of the lands - but Aule's work could not and was not ever really destroyed. Aulë's work could only be undone by an intervention of Eru (e.g. the sinking of Numenor and Beleriand). Sauron's masterpiece had only one weakness as well - the fires of Orodruin. And Feanor's work was not unbreakable either:

From HoME V: The Lost Road:

Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

After the Dagor Dagorath, Yavanna would break the Silmarils. By what means is not stated, but it doesn't matter after all. They can be broken.
So each of these works are almost unbreakable, and I do believe that Aulë passed down this lore to his students - the Noldor and his Maiar.

I also think it was such a necessity that the One Ring be unbreakable except by the Fires of Orodruin, that it was unbreakable because it needed to be for the story first, and because of Sauron's motives second. I wouldn't say that of the Silmarils though, as I doubt anyone would have broke them in the first age, and secondly because they of such importance they they need to last until the end.

I don't like going by the "it needed to be done for the sake of the story" principle. If readers asked Tolkien "Why was the ring (almost) ubreakable" or "Why did the Eagles not bear Frodo to Mount Doom" I sincerely doubt that he would answer "Those needed to be done for the story to be interesting." We must look for reasons within the story, put ourselves within it, not just act like mere onlookers. That's what makes me believe even more that there must be a reason behind the "unbreakability issue".
Feanor's Silmarils and Sauron's Ring must have been products of their teachings from Aulë coupled by the talent of their own hands.

[Inderjit S]

Was Fëanor thinking of the well being of all Arda, or was this only a secret, selfish, greedy idea - to have the fairest jewels all for himself?

You're being a bit harsh on poor Feanor here arent' you? :D ;)

I think it was the for the furthering of his fame, and maybe because he wanted a real 'challenge'.

As soon as he might he lived apart from them...busying himself with the lore and the crafts in which he delighted HoME 10; Of Finwe and Miriel

For a while he had also kept vigil by his mothers body, but but soon he became obsorbed in his own works and devices... HoME 12; The Shibboleth of Feanor.

So from these two statments we can see his tendency for crafts (hence KURUfinwe) but I really think that he also did it not only to propel his fame but to enrich Arda. On the foreshadowing, maybe Feanor was able to recognise Morgoths evil intentions, when he was outside Formenos, asking for alliegience, and he was mistrustful/hated Morgoth from the start. This may come though more in Tolkiens latter Quenta's as in the ones in HoME 4 and 5 he and Finwe are in friendly (ish) terms with him.



Do you think that making "unbreakable" objects was one of the teachings that the Noldor and the Maiar of Aulë received from the Great Smith himself?

I think it was a case of the potency of the spirit inside the Silmarils and of sauron in the One ring that caused this to be. I'm not sure as to whether Feanor was ever a 'pupil' of Aule, as his pride may have made him think that he needed to help. (Apart from Nerdanel and Mahtan, who taught him about the craftings of weapons.) But this statement from the 'Statute of Finwe and Miriel' (HoMe 10) hints at some sort of socialising between Aule and Feanor.

But Aule friend of the Noldor (and lover of Feanor)

Do you think that Varda's hallow was effective? Morgoth snatched the Silmarils and didn't seem to mind Varda's hallows too much

Err...he was excrutitaing pain forever. :p

And how does Beren fit into the "no mortal flesh" category?

Well Beren was special.

Was therefore Melkor the source of some Elves' adventurous spirits, like Galadriel, Fingon and Finrod? Or were they like that by themselves, and Melkor's lies only inflamed their desires to a great extent?

I think that was more of the impetous nature of the Finweans/Noldor, though Morogth may have inflamed it.

Why is Finarfin not included here? He seems to have kept a distance from these feuds at all times. Was he less tainted by the lies of Melkor?

It was just his better judgment and less proud character, in comparison to his brothers. Hence Finarfin's Quenyarnized father-name ARAfinwe, ara being noble.

Finrod (Finarfin) was the fairest, and the most wise of heart... Morgoths Ring

He also prefered to hang around with the Teleri, showing his tendency to not share the impetous characteristics of the Noldor. Showing how how boring a Elf he was.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
How could foresight be of any help in making unbreakable jewels?

I implied that foresight might have been a reason that Feanor thought to make them "unbreakable".

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Aule's creation was the Earth, the continents. Now Melkor did raise new mountains and change the shape of the lands - but Aule's work could not and was not ever really destroyed. Aulë's work could only be undone by an intervention of Eru (e.g. the sinking of Numenor and Beleriand).
As I said:
Melkor broke the Earth that he had part in the shaping of. That is, he tainted everything.
He marred the substance of the Earth and damanged it's shape.
He did not destroy the Earth, but he harmed in such a way that I think it is fair to say he broke it. He broke it's form.
He could do no such thing to the silmarils.
Originally posted by ithrynluin
Sauron's masterpiece had only one weakness as well - the fires of Orodruin. And Feanor's work was not unbreakable either:

Well you asked about them being "unbreakable", so I went with it, without calling you on it... and now call me on it. I don't think there is anything to disagree with here.
Originally posted by ithrynluin
I don't like going by the "it needed to be done for the sake of the story" principle. If readers asked Tolkien "Why was the ring (almost) ubreakable" or "Why did the Eagles not bear Frodo to Mount Doom" I sincerely doubt that he would answer "Those needed to be done for the story to be interesting." We must look for reasons within the story, put ourselves within it, not just act like mere onlookers. That's what makes me believe even more that there must be a reason behind the "unbreakability issue".
Feanor's Silmarils and Sauron's Ring must have been products of their teachings from Aulë coupled by the talent of their own hands.
I did not say that the One Ring could only be ruined by the fire of Orodruin because it was needed for the story. I said it was a necessity for the story, and I imagine that could have been the foremost reason for it, while Sauron's motives were secondary.

Reasons from within the story? I suppose the Ring was only able to be ruined in Orodruin because Sauron had the craft to do so, and would prefer that his magic Ring not be ruined.

I think that the ability to craft the Silmarils was a product of the teachings of Aule... but that is not exactly what you asked before:
Do you think that making "unbreakable" objects was one of the teachings that the Noldor and the Maiar of Aulë received from the Great Smith himself?
The ability can be a product of the teachings without having been tought in specific.

[Maeglin]

Ahhhh!! I just wanted to apologize for my brief disappearance!! I had completely forgotten about this over that period of time!!!:( :o

[BlackCaptain]

1) I think it was all for himself. He and his sons were obsessed (for lack of better word) with the Silmarills. They were commited to it's recovery, because it's the oath they swore to Feanor. He wanted something to keep the light in, so he could have the light forever IMO

2) I don't think so. It doesnt really need to be classified. The point that was trying to get across, that Sauron and Feanor were great smiths, and had immense power in the forging of metals and jewels.

3) This just may have been overlooked by Tolkien, or Beren could have been an ecception like he was an ecception into Menengroth. Or like Tuor was an exception in the 'No mortals in the undying lands' rule. I don't think it can be explained... And as much as you would like to believe otherwise ithrynluin, I doubt that Tolkien could tell you a reason why the Ring was nearly indestructable without making something that he didn't write about up.

4) Probly. If Melkokr hadn't mixed up thier minds, and made them leave in the first place, they would have all probly just stayed in Valinor. Why else would they leave? The Silmarillion is all about the Elves and thier wars in ME, and how the Vala want them back. It would be presumable then, that the only thing that would be against the Valars liking is first conjured somehow in the heart of Melkor.

5) Perhaps the same reason a parent wouldnt tell a child it's adopted after a wile. Elves as a race were still generally young, and new to the earth. If I was Manwe, I would wait for a little while until the Elves are a big enough race to say there's another. Im sure the Vala were ready to tell them about the Men soon enough...

6) He obviously did not have the right. It's like an old riddle I remember:

If George's chicken laid an egg on William's driveway, would the egg belong to George, the chicken, or William?

It would equally belong to everyone, but Feanor was selfish like that. He was selfish enough that he drove an entire class of Elves out of bliss into grief. That is why the doom was laid upon the Noldo. It's like Hitler and the Nazis actualy...

Hitler was one leader, who wanted more land, and was very greedy. He wouldn't have drove all of the German's into war, and woujldn't have made them look bad in front of the entire world if some people had just stood up to him.

Feanor, was one leader, who wanted his Silmarills, and was very greedy. He wouldn't have drove all the Noldo into ME, and war with Melkor, and made them look bad in front of all the Eldalie if some of the Noldo had just stood up to him on Tirion.

That doesn't have much to do with this specific topic, but I think it's significant in showing just how crazy Feanor was. And, both Hitler and Feanor were kinslayers.

Feanor had some entitlement to the Silmarills, but should have left them in Valinor, where they wouldserve most use.

7) I don't think we should be asking why Finarfin is not included, but this is telling us that Finarfin was not included. It shows the characters of all 3 sons of Finwe, even if only two were used. It shows how Finarfin wasn't as conflict oriented as his brothers, and was calmer. This is why he's my favorite of the sons of Finwe. He shows good 'class' for lack of better word.\

8) That is one good question:D

[Ithrynluin]

And as much as you would like to believe otherwise ithrynluin, I doubt that Tolkien could tell you a reason why the Ring was nearly indestructable without making something that he didn't write about up.

I was making an assumption, I did not make something up from thin air, and neither is my assumption completely unfounded. Aulë, the master of crafting, could have taught the best of his students (those who had the greatest skill), how to render their artifacts (almost) indestructible. I don't find that unbelievable, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course.

4) Probly. If Melkokr hadn't mixed up thier minds, and made them leave in the first place, they would have all probly just stayed in Valinor. Why else would they leave? The Silmarillion is all about the Elves and thier wars in ME, and how the Vala want them back. It would be presumable then, that the only thing that would be against the Valars liking is first conjured somehow in the heart of Melkor.

I disagree. Most of the Noldor were adventurous by nature. The desire to see wide, unknown lands imbued their personalities IMHO. I will also add my answer from the thread that Nóm refers to:

From Unfinished Tales; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn:

She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage.

This is a description of Galadriel's and Finrod's character in general. This is who she was. Her (and the rest of the Noldor's) characteristics did not change because of Melkor's lies, only their desire to go to Middle Earth surfaced sooner and quicker.

[BlackCaptain]

Dreams. I dream of being the biggest richest person in the world. No doubt, the Noldo were very adventurous. I just think it's Melkor's lies that sparked thier leaving.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
Dreams. I dream of being the biggest richest person in the world. No doubt, the Noldo were very adventurous. I just think it's Melkor's lies that sparked thier leaving.

No, your comparison is untrue. The "dreams" that Galadriel had were not just some random thought, they were aspirations, and they mirrored the very essence of her character.

[BlackCaptain]

Of course, but what I was getting at is there's a difference between dreaming about something and doing it. Sure, the Noldo probly would have asked the Vala if they could go back to ME to establish some colonies, but what I'm saying is Melkor had some big outside influence.