A vs. A: The Choice of Denethor

[Anamatar IV]

This is a debate that I challenged Ancalagon to (hence A (Anamatar) vs. A (Ancalagon);)).

The debate topic is:

Was Denethor's plan for the Ring good?

Ancalagon, since I challenged you, you get the first pick of sides.:)

The judges have been filled

Judges:

Nenya Evenstar
Elendil3119
Dengen-Goroth

The debate will end: April 13.

[Ancalagon]

Thank-you Anamatar for inviting me to debate with you. Thanks also to the judges who will be giving up their time to read through the finished product.

I will keep my opener short and to the point; Was Denethor's plan for the Ring good?

Well, in a word...No! I will show that not only did Denethor not have any credible plan, but anything that might bare semblance to a plan would have been flawed due to outside influences. One must also consider how he had a credible plan if he did not know of the resurgence of the Ring? Actually, I am looking forward to reading what you consider to be Denethor's actual plan an how you will defend it.

However, as is customary I will hand the debate to you Anamatar to deliver your opening arguement.

Enjoy:)

[Anamatar IV]

Imagine that you are the ruler of a people growing weak. A power looms nigh to you and has declared itself enemies with you. Your eldest son has died and now you learn that the one thing that your enemy needs to destroy all opposition and resistance has been sent into the heart of that land. The plan of Denethor to keep the ring locked in deep vaults and chambers under the city and Mindolluin was a good and just one. Denethor had witnessed the legions and strength of Mordor. There was no way such an army could be overthrown! At least escape the thralldom, slavery, and torture of defeat when the Ring finds the hand of its maker.

Gandalf said it himself:

'The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dur can make them do so.

Denethor saw the armies of Mordor as it truly was. He saw arrayed against him armies beyond comprehension of man! But lo! For the armies of Gondor are valiant and fell! Right? Maybe not… What army does the Lord Denethor have to contest the waves of enemies spewing from the mountains in the east? He has a country beaten by many wars and lessened by plague. He has a country whose finest captain has been killed. He has is eldest son dead beyond the confines of the world.

But allies! The allies of Gondor will come to his aid just as Eorl did on the Celebrant! But, through the eyes of Denethor, would they? Saruman, to whom his forefathers foolishly gave one of the finest crafts of Numenor, is constantly plaguing the Rohirrim with war. To what avail could the squabbling forces that might come from his allies come to? These are the thoughts of Denethor.

Now Denethor’s world is falling. He has seen the massive forces of Mordor. He sees his country dramatically lessened from its least of glory days, with a dead captain and allies that will not come. There is little hope in the world. The last strand of hope that he hangs on to is that Sauron will not reclaim that which will help him break down all defenses. Sauron’s army is too huge for all the people of the West to overcome. Sauron, with one fell stroke, could (from the eyes of Denethor mind you) overthrow Gondor. Why not escape the torture of Sauron, escape the thralldom, escape the pain of the whips of creatures that defile the grass that they walk on. In the eyes of Denethor the only hope that is left is the hope to keep the ring away from Sauron and the hope for death when the seas of Mordor pour over the free lands.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
In the eyes of Denethor the only hope that is left is the hope to keep the ring away from Sauron and the hope for death when the seas of Mordor pour over the free lands.

And that's it? That's the plan? That's Denethor's good plan for The One Ring? To bury it in a vault and then burn himself to death and hope Sauron did not find it until he and his people were dead? To sit back, hide behind his walls and wait for death to find him! To give up all hope for himself and his people and wait for Mordor to devastate his lands, like a violent flood washing over them, the torrents of his enemy filling his defences, sweeping over his people, his armies, washing them away with nothing but the foul stench of Mordor filling their nostrils as they gasp their last breath! Is this a fitting end for the proud Steward, in whose blood the line of Westernesse ran almost true, who was tasked with keeping the rule intact in the eventual hope of the returning King? Should such a pathetic end come of such a proud man and a proud people as a result of this plan? Indeed it would and that would be a travesty that none would have lived to sing about!

Yet, it seems in your opening arguement you have taken a self-defeating stance; whereby you acknowledge that 'in Denethor's eyes' everything he decides is somewhat flawed by what Sauron has revealed to him in the Palantir! How then can this deceived man construct a plan worthy of his lineage and his Stewardship if it acheives nothing but the demise of a nation? Surely a better plan in the face of such adversity would be to strike an offensive against the Armies of Mordor, wounding them deeply with some semblance of valour, from which this great Kingdom had evolved!

In truth, I would have had more respect for Denethor if he had decided to wield the Ring himself and face his nemesis head on...that would have at least shown him to be a stronger leader than the whipped cur he had become!

[Anamatar IV]

To bury it in a vault and then burn himself to death and hope Sauron did not find it until he and his people were dead?

What makes you think Denethor would have burned himself? Boromir and Faramir never mention anything the LEAST bit disturbing about their father personally. It is only after the location of the Ring is revealed to him that we see his marks of despair.

Who is to say Denethor would have lain idle trying to prolong the life of his country? How do we know he would not have gone to battle and with the last strength of his country leaving a battle that would make Orcs weep at the name of? Denethor had girt himself with a sword in the War of the Ring, possibly if he had the ring safe under the locked doors and vaults of Minas Tirith he would have rode forth to war himself?

Denethor was a proud man with great lineage but when your enemy that already is thought will not be defeated is almost GIVEN the one thing that would ensure it victory you lose that pride.

Denethor's despair and burning himself is one of Tolkien's way of showing how the Ring can cause madness even from afar.

Again, Ancalagon, you have nothing to say Denethor would not have gone to open battle with Mordor. Locking the Ring under stone and steel does not mean keeping your armies inside your walls. With the Ring safely locked away if the armies of Gondor were defeated in that great battle that you talk about they would have a country to retreat to. If Denethor wielded the Ring and was himself struck down there would be no Free land to return to. You may ask "what if Denethor does not fall?" I think Gandalf answers that question remarkably:

We cannot learn how to use the full power [of the ring] in a day.
The Last Debate; Return of the King

Ancalagon, you seem to think that Denethor's actions were wholly affected by the Palantir. Although it has been shown (and you don't need to show me again;)) that they had much to do with his despair it obviously was not wholly so. Pippin from the Black Gate Opens explains:

Weell, well, now at any rate I understand poor denethor a little better. We might die together, Merry and I, and since die we must, why not?

Pippin, after seeing the Legions of Mordor, almost agrees with Denethor!

Now listen to the logic of Denethor:

Is being a thrall better than dying?
I will have no Orc jeer at me between taking swills of his dearly bought wine!
I will die before I become a slave!
But surely they would rather imprison us than slay us if Sauron had the Ring. In the world that was his he would have much use for slaves.
But he doesn't have the Ring yet....he hasn't won. If we could make sure he does not get the ring while we may yet stride upon the field of battle we may escape the whips of the Orcs!

Wait! What if I wear the Ring and go forth into battle? What if I among the first to fall? I will have fallen for the ill-tide of my people! So I will not wear the Ring. I will lock it in a place where no works of Sauron could find it lest they overthrow the mountains and upturn the rivers!

The thought process of this Steward is true, it is clear, and it is just!

[Ancalagon]

As much as I would like to show Denethor as having lost his pride and affection for both Gondor and his people...it is simply not true, he did however lose all hope and that means any decisions he made were flawed. Ancalagon, you seem to think that Denethor's actions were wholly affected by the Palantir. If Denethor was made to fall into despair by Sauron, what credence can be given to any decision he makes? we know he utterly rejected Sauron, unlike Saruman who simply bowed down. Denethor remained proud, but what good is that if his decisions are fogged by the deceipt of Sauron? What council did Denethor seek other than his own? Since he did not seek other council, then the dark thoughts of despair that clouded his judgement cannot lead one to agree that his actions and decisions were those of a rational man.

Let us not forget Denethor was driven to anger as he made his rant about locking the Ring in a vault. It was not a contructed plan in the sense that he had time to actually consider it. In truth, Denethor guessed only that the Ring might have surfaced, that Isildur's Bane had awoken but its location was not known to him at least. Counsels may be found that are neither the webs of wizards nor the haste of fools. I have in this matter more lore and wisdom than you deem. ' I refer you back to his lack of council from sources other than his own. He was wise in the lore of the Ring, that much is certain. He had followed the lead from Gandalfs searching the archives of Gondor and learned much about Isildurs Bane, enough to know that to use it was folly 'in his eyes' as you clearly pointed out before. Yet, what is the peril that he chose to ignore? That the Ring corrupts its bearer or that it awakens a lust and desire so that it cannot left alone! Surely, his search of the archives would have turned up the very same description Gandalf had read followng his first suspicions that Frodo actually bore the One. Yet, none of the jigsaw had fallen into place for Denethor, save only that he had suspicions. The crux of this 'plan' comes from Gandalf himself, and with this I wholly agree;
And now hearing you speak I trust you less, no more than Boromir. Nay, stay your wrath! I do not trust myself in this, and I refused this thing, even as a freely given gift. You are strong and can still in some matters govern yourself, Denethor; yet if you had received this thing, it would have overthrown you. Were it buried beneath the roots of Mindolluin, still it would burn your mind away, as the darkness grows, and the yet worse things follow that soon shall come upon us.'
This is the ultimate flaw in Denethors 'plan,' for the Ring would consume him as it did every other. Actually, the thought of the Ring had already begun to consume him, such as he sought to learn of it, understand its perilousness to the Kingdom, and yet he believed himself to be capable of securing it?

Pride and despair Anamatar, one wonders at the insecurity and torments that haunted poor Denethor as he considered his options?

[Anamatar IV]

Gandalf was a vagabond. His only thoughts pertained to his mission. He had no country to call his own and he could not see through the eyes of Denethor. Obviously for the good of the world Denethor's plan would be bad! I could tell you that from Return of the King. But in the eyes of Denethor this was the best shot he had. There was no other hope in the world for him. What if he wanted to destroy the Ring?

How? Plain old simple how? He knows the strength of the impregnable Morannon. He knows he can't fight his way in. What he doesn't know is of the secret path into Mordor. Even if he did know of it why would he attempt that path? He'd be poisoned and used for spider fodder. He'd have no way to ward off Shelob. He had no blade of Elvenesse or phial of star undimmable.

"A fool's hope" he described it and none could describe it better. It was a fool's hope to attempt to destroy the ring. Face it, it's almost impossible. To first get past the borders of Mordor, a task impossible in itself, and then to move across the Gorgoroth without dying or being seen! If you are alive and still secret when you FINALLY get the ring to the mountain how do you get UP the Mountain with that "heavy" ring? How did Frodo do it? He did it with one friend and one creature's decieving turned bountiful. No one expected any of these things from Sam Frodo or Gollum. So a fool's hope it was indeed.

So you have three options with the ring; each bad but getting progressively better:

Try to destroy the Ring. There is no way in Gondor to do that. A fool's hope!

Use the ring. You'll give Sauron a big beat down before you yourself finally get pierced by blade and fall to the ruin of you and all your people.

Not use the ring and not allow it to move. The waves and legions of Mordor would sweep over you like the tide on the sand but at least you're not a slave. Sauron never gets what is his until all else is finished. Maybe there will be a last stand in Minas Tirith where all will fall or maybe something else will happen. We can never be sure. Maybe by restraining the Ring from Sauron until we see what will befall some new hope will kindle?

Do you see now why Denethor's plan is good through his eyes for the well being of his country and for the world?

Why do you think the Ring would consume him? Have it be put away and locked up until his death and then don't tell it to the next Steward or thereafter...anything wrong with that? Maybe the Ring will eat up Denethor while he is in power...unlikely. Remember Frodo had it in his very home for many years without the slightest lust for it. So you see, if it is stored in a deep place hidden from all where no one can see it or hear it's calls the Ring is almost harmless!

I see no flaw in Denethor's plan other than it is an act of utter despair. Throughout Tolkien's works we see how the great leaders channeled their despair and did great dids with it; Fingolfin, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Fingon, Turin, Theoden, it is constantly happening. So what makes Denethor the exception? The fact that he is NOT a great of leaders. Yes he was a good leader but not great. The good not great leaders would take their despair and harbor it while they get lamer like Brandir. What makes a great leader is the ability to lead your people. If Denethor could wield off the legions of Mordor by himself but not get his armies to follow him he would be a horrible leader. He was not a good leader! He was secluded to his tower in his dark thoughts. As you said he took his own counsel. He was plain old not a good leader. Since he was not a good leader he would harbor this despair until the end of his days. But what sets him apart from Brandir is Denethor still had some hope. He had that some hope that Sauron would not reclaim his ring and create thralls out of every living being on Middle-earth! This hope breaks his ranks of despair and masters him. Through his eyes the locking away of the ring is a superb thing to do!

[Ancalagon]

You have continued to deliver a self-defeating arguement Anamatar, regarding the fallibility of Denethor's plan. Obviously for the good of the world Denethor's plan would be bad!However, I will not dwell on the eloquence of your misguided position, for you have a great talent for setting the scene and cluttering the picture with irrelevance.

Denethor sought no advice but his own. This in itself shows a weakness, that he would rule, without the guidance of advisors, save only that which Sauron gifted him through the Palantir. Do you think Denethor made choices based on sound knowledge? Of course not, he did not venture to seek or understand the council of Gandalf! Why not?

Let us look back back into the history of Denethor II, Twenty-Sixth and Last Steward of Gondor. There was no denying his ability to rule masterfully over Gondor. Yet, even in his early days his single-mindedness was identified, and proved to be his undoing in later years; 'When Denethor became Steward (2984) he proved a masterful lord, holding the rule of all things in his own hand. he said little. He listened to counsel, and then followed his own mind. Following the death of his wife, Finduilas, he retreated into himself even more, sitting deep in thought in The White Tower, eventually to be captured by the peircing eye, ever watchful in Barad-dûr.It was afterwards believed that needing knowledge, but being proud, and trusting in his own strength of will, he dared to look in the palantír of the White Tower. None of the Stewards had dared to do this, nor even the kings Eärnil and Eärnur, after the fall of Minas Ithil when the palantír of Isildur came into the hands of the enemy; for the Stone of Minas Tirith was the palantír of Anárion, most close in accord with the one that Sauron possessed. Thus began the deceipt of Sauron, guiding the strong will of Denethor towards that which would evenually seal his downfall and remove the greatest impediment that stood between Sauron and his designs upon Middle-Earth. Ring or no Ring, Denethor's plans were ultimately the will of Sauron. Yet, ever seeking knowledge, and ever driven on by that which Sauron revealed to him, ever viewing the Palantir and gleaning glimpses of information and events that passed in the world, Denethor had long been subject to his own despair. Could it have been that the departure of his wife proved the catalyst for his downfall? Could it be that he knew of the relationship between Isengard and Barad-dûr? Did Denethor chance upon exchanges between these two and fall into the trap that Sauron had set him? Consider this again from The Return of the KingThus pride increased in Denethor together with despair, until he saw in all the deeds of that time only a single combat between the Lord of the White Tower and the Lord of the Barad-dûr, and mistrusted all other who resisted Sauron, unless they served himself alone.
It appears that Denethor II, being far-sighted as he was and wise in lore and the History of Kings and Men was his own worst enemy. He sought the council of none that mattered most, even then, he would have followed his own direction. Why not consider the advice of Thorongil to Ecthelion, his father? To welcome Gandalf the Grey, whose wisdom and forethought in grave matters was renowned! The wise say that Denethor II, seeing deeper than most realised who Thorongil actually was, that Gandalf and Thorongil had conspired to usurp him and return the rule of the King to Gondor.Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him. This would be a sore blow to one so proud, last of the Stewards who had served Gondor for so long in the absence of the Kings. It seems the paranoia of Denethor, the deceipt of Suaron, the loss of both Wife and Son, the conspiracy against the rule of the Stewards and the desire to return the King all proved too much for this proud man. What plan could he contrive alone that would benefit Gondor, if his mind was torn by pride and mistrust?

[Anamatar IV]

'What plan could he make for the benefit of his country?' What plan? What plan could any other KING of Gondor make? The Kings are of DIRECT descent from Elendil. They are wiser and more far sighted. A king would have known he could not master the ring: he has the example from the past to show him that! Destroy it? The king would think as I said in my last post. Well if you can't use it and can't destroy it what should you do? Put it out on the lawn and wait for Sauron? What kind of idiotic ruler would do this? No, since you can't use it and can't destroy it the only thing you can do is hold it from Sauron. That Denethor knew for he was a wise and for-sighted man.

Ancalagon, you have failed to tell me what you would have Denethor do what a better plan would be. Is it because you see no better plan for a ruler with so few options? Is it because through the cloud you have created with your own colorful talk of Sauron the deciever that you finally see Denethor has one choice to make.

[Ancalagon]

Anamatar, you seem to be missing the point of my position entirely. You have asked me time and again 'What plan could he make for the benefit of his country?' What plan? What plan could any other KING of Gondor make? The inexorable Denethor was so blinkered by his own pride and despair that any coherent thought process had long departed from him. Denethor never had a plan that would constitute an effective defence against the onslaught that was inevitable.
Would you not agree then, that for this proud Steward to seek to stand shoulder to shoulder with his men and face the foe would have been a more fitting end? Yet, he does not!

Let's face facts here Anamatar, The Ring actually has little relevance in the grand scheme of events as they unfold here. Denethor may have guessed at its existence prior to meeting Pippin for the first time, yet even long before this he had exhibited his depressed and anxious state. Since the death of Finduilas his downfall had seemed apparent. His inability to trust Gandalf, the feeling that Throrongil and he were planning to usurp him, remove the rule of the Stewards and return the King to the throne of Gondor. All the while Sauron, revealing his building army and numerical superiority, amassed on the borders of his lands and poised to wash over him bringing both death or thraldom to Gondor and all over the Western lands.

Though, even this I find interesting, particularly as I begin to understand Sauron more and more. Consider his rule over the lands in the South, as far as Harad and Umbar and the Great Deserts of the South, as far as the deep forests of Harad to the Eastern Coasts, where Sauron held power and the allegiance of these Kings and leaders. Interestingly, they are not oppressed to the point that Sauron has pits of burning sulphur, destruction, utter ruin and death visited upon them, that their lives were governed solely by his will alone (which he could never fully acheive without the Ring) without thought or reason! This view of Sauron is actually quite the opposite of Saurons true purpose for his own blend of dictatorship and government of Men;From, Myths TransformedSauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. This points an interesting aspect to Sauron's ultimate plans for Middle-Earth, an ordered society to whom all tribute is owed to Sauron. Yet, he deliberately reveals to Denethor such visions that portrays in his fragile mental state such apocalyptic devastation that death would seem the only choice. Surely a man so masterful of his own will and with such vision could see through this deception and know the that the glimmer of hope is in mustering strength from all of Middle-Earth and facing the enemy while he is hemmed in?

Should Denethor not have stood his ground upon The Pelennor and fought the bloody battle to save his people, his freedoms and all that Gondor held to be true? Yet, we see a different outcome for this unstable Steward, an ending that is becoming only of the 'Heathen Kings under the domination of the Dark Power' who slayed themselves in 'Pride and Despair'. Sauron had effectively removed all such praise to any other higher being other than Melkor, his master. If his blend of self-promotion profitted him to distract the human from praising Eru and an exceptence of paganlike ritualistic practice, then he was successful in detaching the will from the creator. From, Myths TransformedSauron was not a 'sincere' atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God's action in Arda). As was seen in the case of Ar-Pharazon. But there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor's own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself. Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both profited by this darkened shadow of good and the services of 'worshippers'. But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time. His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest. Strangely enough, this is not so different from Melkors actions as described in the Athrabeth whereby he seeks the renonciation of Eru by those Secondborn whom he appears to. Sauron continues the practice, though he uses Melkor as the Godhead figure and himself as his dark priest. Why is this important? The Return of the King'Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,' answered Gandalf. 'And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.' 'Pride and despair' Anamatar. Was this not the downfall of Ar-Pharazon and The Numenoreans? What plan did Denethor have but to re-enact the second downfall of Man! Sauron orchestrated this second fall(the first being that described in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth) , not because of desire to annihilate an entire race, simply out of revenge for Ar-Pharazons attempt to humiliate Sauron. Denethor could not accept change and foresaw Aragorns coming to Gondor as a failure in himself for the downfall of the Stewards. Gandalf he saw as an instigator, sent to remove him from power and replace him and his line. 'Pride and Despair'. Denethors plan was flawed by his own inability to accept change, his undoing was his acceptance of all Sauron revealed to him. Most importantly, the Ring had virtually nothing to do with any of it.

[Anamatar IV]

I'm sorry, Ancalagon, but 'Pride and despair' was not the cause of the Downfall of Numenor! It was fear. Fear of death. Fear already spurred to hatred well before Sauron was the main cause for it. But also, a big factor was the deceit of Sauron. Doubtless there was some deceit to Denethor from Sauron but what deceit through the Palantiri could harm Denethor? Sauron could not show Denethor anything new. To show his grand force as it was would not be deceit, as it is defined.

Ancalagon, upon reading, rereading, and rereading your informative post about the similarities between the Downfall of Numenor and Denethor I regard most of it as "neutral" to the debate. Sauron tried to mimick his downfall of Numenor with the Downfall of Gondor. And this has what to do with the Ring? Denethor acted as a Heathen King under the Dark Dominion. And the Ring falls in where? You said it yourself many times in that post, the Ring was not so important in the grand scheme of things. I think that is admitting the post gives nothing to either side in this debate.

You have yet to address this point, Ancalagon:

Hiding the Ring and locking it behind stone and steel does not exclude valiant acts. Say after hiding the Ring Denethor burns himself. He can take a back seat now. The Ring is locked away and Faramir is Steward. Faramir has not looked in the Palantir and has not been deceived by any. He welcomed Gandalf. He would have taken up the banner of the Stewards and led his people to gallant war!

Denethor's mental stability has nothing to do with this debate because he would have a successor. Look at the role of Gondor in the War of the Ring. Did they take the Ring to Mordor? Did they help the Ring bearer there? Did they throw the ring out in the lawn and sit back in chairs? They had NOTHING to do with the Ring! I've said many times they COULD do nothing with it. Gondor fought valiantly and wounded the enemy deeply without the Ring and they sure as heck could do it BETTER with the Ring safely behind bars. Given eventually Sauron would over-run the world the options of Gondor are very few and the best among them is to lock the Ring away and fight until strength leaves you.

[Ancalagon]

I will allow the judges to dwell on the relevance of my previous posts for what they intended to show, and if they find against my theories, then that will be my loss, though I do not casually toss 'neutral' points or irrelevant reasoning behind my arguements. I will not divert from my current line of reasoning to discuss 'The Downfall of Númenor.' except that I see the subtle despair in death while so close to eternal life, creating envy in those unfaithful. Their pride in wealth and power grew all the while through the reign of Kings until eventually Sauron fed their fears and stroked their pride and led them to their doom. Then again, this is a separate debate, which I am sure we can have one day.

Now, where were we?
Posted by AnamatarIVHiding the Ring and locking it behind stone and steel does not exclude valiant acts. Say after hiding the Ring Denethor burns himself. He can take a back seat now. The Ring is locked away and Faramir is Steward. Faramir has not looked in the Palantir and has not been deceived by any. He welcomed Gandalf. He would have taken up the banner of the Stewards and led his people to gallant war! How do you expect me to question such genius as 'say after hiding the Ring Denethor burns himself! He can take a back seat now'? Is this the solid foundation of your position? Am I supposed to accept this as a reasonable course of events in the eyes of the Steward?

I am sorry AnamatarIV, this is far from being a well reasoned, sensible approach to dealing with the One RIng. That Denethor should not seek advice from councilors more leanred in such matters such as Gandalf. I have already showed you that his logic was always self-governed and not the least by 'Pride and Despair'.
PRIDE: 'But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.'
DESPAIR:For thy hope is but ignorance. Go then and labour in healing! Go forth and fight! Vanity. For a little space you may triumph on the field, for a day. But against the Power that now arises there is no victory. To this City only the first finger of its hand has yet been stretched. All the East is moving. And even now the wind of thy hope cheats thee and wafts up Anduin a fleet with black sails. The West has failed. It is time for all to depart who would not be slaves.'
He cannot hide the Ring, for it would not allow itself to be remain hidden. The Council of Elrond already discussed this course of action and deemed it impossible due to the nature of the Ring itself. Yet Denethor's plans were always flawed, by his own mistrust of Gandalf, his despair at the potency of Saurons might that had been revealed to him, the loss of his Wife and Son(s), the returning King! He had withdrawn to his own misguided council and spoke rashly of a plan to bury the Ring, yet in truth, we both know he would have attempted to wield it.
'Neither. But most surely not for any argument would he have set this thing at a hazard beyond all but a fool's hope, risking our utter ruin, if the Enemy should recover what he lost. Nay, it should have been kept, hidden, hidden dark and deep. Not used, I say, unless at the uttermost end of need, but set beyond his grasp, save by a victory so final that what then befell would not trouble us, being dead.' Who would use it I wonder, who would be strong enough to wield the Ring as a final stroke? Denethor? would that be part of the plan I wonder? If Sauron was over-running Gondor, would not the Steward accept the mantle as defender of the realm and take up this Ring? Surely he would be able, he could save Gondor, he could wield Isildur's Bane and not fall foul of its power, just as he alone of all the Stewards was able to seek knowledge from the Palantir! Surely it was fate that kept him from being King!

This is how the plan would evolve and Gandalf knew it; 'Nonetheless I do not trust you,' said Gandalf. 'Had I done so, I could have sent this thing hither to your keeping and spared myself and others much anguish. And now hearing you speak I trust you less, no more than Boromir. Nay, stay your wrath! I do not trust myself in this, and I refused this thing, even as a freely given gift. You are strong and can still in some matters govern yourself, Denethor; yet if you had received this thing, it would have overthrown you. Were it buried beneath the roots of Mindolluin, still it would burn your mind away, as the darkness grows, and the yet worse things follow that soon shall come upon us.' Had Denethor cared to seek advice and reveal the extent of his knowledge, maybe Gandalf could have advised him better. His wisdom in such matters were not sought and the plan that Denethor created was made of fear, despair, mistrust, misunderstanding, pride and ignorance.
Then again, I must be missing the point as you seem to find it wonderful!

[Anamatar IV]

A bit contradictory aren't we, Ancalagon?
He was wise in the lore of the Ring, that much is certain

That Denethor should not seek advice from councilors more leanred in such matters such as Gandalf.

Now on to the rest of your post....

Who would use it I wonder, who would be strong enough to wield the Ring as a final stroke? Denethor? would that be part of the plan I wonder? If Sauron was over-running Gondor, would not the Steward accept the mantle as defender of the realm and take up this Ring? Surely he would be able, he could save Gondor, he could wield Isildur's Bane and not fall foul of its power, just as he alone of all the Stewards was able to seek knowledge from the Palantir! Surely it was fate that kept him from being King!

Look at the quote you posted more carefully. "Not used, I say, UNLESS...."

This does not mean his plan was to use it at the end. Didn't Denethor also say in that same quote "but set beyond his grasp, save by a victory so final that what then befell would not trouble us, being dead."

Ancalagon you miss my point entirely in your last post. In Denethor's eyes there is no longer any hope of victory. What hope he once had has been squandered. Denethor was not present at the Council of Elrond, he doesn't know what was said!

Gondor's options are all for open war. In the Council of Elrond we learn, we know, that open war is not the way to fight and defeat Sauron. So if you are bested by open war tell me WHY should you be slaves? WHY shouldn't you die valiantly escaping slavedom? Keep the Ring away from Sauron until the end of the days of Men for whether Sauron has the Ring or not those days are soon to come.

[Ancalagon]

Aside from the rest of the debate now going in circles, I will respond to the 2 initial quotes you gave of mine, that you think are contradictory.
Denethor is wise in Ring lore, else he would never have identified its existence in the first place. However, regarding seeking advice from Gandalf in 'such matters' as 'dealing' with the Ring, I thought that was clear from the context of the full passage. Upon reading it again myself, I see no contradiction and am satisfied with the basis of my arguement thus far.

Why did Denethor not seek to understand more about the Ring from Gandalf if he knew it existed? Why did he not reveal the source of his knowledge sooner? Did he not do so because he did not know of its existence? If this was the case, how can he have had a plan?

However, if he knew of it, why not seek to persuade Gandalf to steer the Ring into his keeping, long before hoping upon his pyre? Surely, such a 'mighty gift' would be better placed in his keeping, would it not? Why not ask Gandalf about the Council of Elrond, what choices were made and why? Whatever his plan was or was not, he did not seek to influence it, bring it to fruition, manipulate it, realise it or anything that would make one think there was some conviction or determination to see his plan materialise!

The question for this debate is: Was Denethor's plan for the Ring good? You are saying that it is good in his eyes, but not good in general for the health of his nation.

For my part, I am saying that his plan was flawed and ultimately destructive. Too much history guides his thoughts, too much that Sauron has revealed has determined how he thinks. He does not seek advice and follows his own judgement, for good or ill! He seeks answers in the Palantir, fears his authority and line are to be overturned by Gandalf and Thorongil and has nothing but his own pride and despair to assist him in making judgements for the good of his people. Sadly, he is a spent man, his logic tainted, his sanity gone and his hope faded...his plan and his actions reflect this clearly.


This was my final post for the debate. I assume Anamatar will post a reply, then possibly we could call it?

[Anamatar IV]

My point throughout this debate was that in the eyes of Denethor and through the eyes of Gondor to seal the Ring away was good. The nation of Gondor had so few options and the best one of the bunch would be to keep the Ring from use as long as possible. Gondor, it's a nation beaten by war among itself and with its neighbors, destroyed by plague, and ruled by Stewards waiting for a King to come. It would have no hope in a world. That is why they should have prolonged their existence until all else has fallen.

Ah this was fun, Ancalagon.:) One of the judges will post a judging thread soon.