Debate: Sauron's wisdom?

[Nóm]

Team A:
jimzeller
BlackCaptian

Team B:
ithrynluin
Elendil3119

Team A has the choice of sides, and the debate will end exactly 10 days from the time of their opening post.

In The Tale of Years we are told that Gollum was released from Mordor in 3017 of the Third Age.

Given what Sauron must have known, was he wise to release Gollum?

[BlackCaptain]

NOT OPENING POST:

We choose Sauron was not wise for releasing Gollum.

[baragund]

OPENING STATEMENT

In "The Hunt for the Ring" in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien provides some good insight on several strategic blunders on Sauron's part.

Sauron released Gollum based on a guess (that's right out of the book) that he would lead Sauron to the Shire and the whereabouts of "the thief Baggins". Gollum didn't know where the Shire was so he makes his way toward his homeland in the vales of Anduin near the Gladden Fields. Gollum winds up disapearing so Sauron sends the Nazgul to search for the Shire in the same general location, spreading terror wherever they go. Eventually, the Nazgul expand their search until they meet Saruman, who puts them off and Grima Wormtongue who spills the beans and finally tells them where The Shire is located.

Sauron actually makes several errors in releasing Gollum. He based his release on a "guess" that Gollum would lead him where he wants to go. Sauron also does not perceive Gollum's
"indomitable spirit" (that's also right out of the book) of never wanting to give up the Ring and keep it for his own. Based on this account, Sauron never completely breaks Gollum's will in Barad-dur, and one would think Sauron should have been able to see that. One would also think Sauron would be shrewd enough not to hang the outcome of recovering the most important artifact in Middle Earth on a guess of what a wretched little creature would do.

This is kind of an aside, but Sauron makes another blunder in using the Nazgul to search for the ring. He wanted to search in stealth, but the Nazgul spread so much terror where ever they go, it's like announcing to the world "The Enemy is HERE!!" in mile-high letters, thereby alerting the West that something was up. A much more effective strategy would be to recruit regular men to quietly search for The Shire, and report back to Barad-dur once they identified the location. Then, send the Nazgul for a swift stroke.

Another thing that indicates Sauron's lack of wisdom is how could Sauron not know the whereabouts of an entire country like The Shire? After all, The Shire had been in existence for around 1400 years, they send soldiers to assist Arnor to fight the Witch King on the North Downs, and everybody in Middle Earth smokes their prime agricultural product, pipe-weed. It's kind of like the President of the United States not being aware of the existence or location of, say, Australia.

This reflects a comedy of errors on the part of Sauron in the Hunt for the Ring and, particularly, how he deals with Gollum.

We think, that it is no doubt, letting Gollum go was unwise. Gollum did destroy the Ring. Gollum did lead Frodo and Sam into Mordor. Gollum did get Frodo and Sam through the Emyn Muil and Dead marshes. We believe, that there is no way Sauron's letting of Gollum go could be wise. It was the ultimate folly, besides perhaps making the Ring in the first place. It serves him right for trusting a 500 year old skitzophranic Hobbit. If Sauron wanted to see if Gollum would lead him to the Shire, he should have done a much better job of tailing him.

Sauron had self-serving interests in releasing Gollum but overlooked the fact that Gollum hates the Ring as well as loves it and he underestimated the degree that Gollum was devoted to the Ring and he underestimated Gollum's willpower and determination to reclaim it for himself. That is not wise. Would you consider it wise letting free something that will just kill you? The point is, Sauron's bane (Gollum) was let loose by Sauron. The Hobbits played a major role, but Gollum in the end was the death of Sauron.

Wisdom of Sauron? We think not.

[Ithrynluin]

From Unfinished Tales; The Hunt for the Ring:

Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017 and taken Barad-dûr, and there questioned and tormented. When he had learned what he could from him, Sauron released him and sent him forth again. He did not trust Gollum, for he divined something indomitable in him, which could not be overcome, even by the Shadow of Fear, except by destroying him. But Sauron perceived the depth of Gollum's malice towards those that had "robbed" him, and guessing that he would go in search of them to avenge himself, Sauron hoped that his spies would thus be led to the Ring.

by jimzeller
Sauron released Gollum based on a guess (that's right out of the book) that he would lead Sauron to the Shire and the whereabouts of "the thief Baggins".

That's not exactly 'right out of the book'. You make it sound like Sauron risked all without any proof or good reasons to release Gollum. Was Sauron's guess not backed up by something?
Sauron perceived the depth of Gollum's malice...and guessing that he would go in search of them to avenge himself....
Did not Gollum do just that? This was not a "guess", but a logical assumption. It does not mean that Sauron "took a guess (out of many possible answers)", he perceived the truth.

It was easy for Sauron to know that Gollum lusted for the Ring, because that was what the Ring did to anyone - it slowly corrupted any goodness that was in a person, and it worked like a drug, in a way; it made you powerless to cast it away or put it aside.
Therefore, considering Gollum's immense lust for the Ring, coupled by the enormous amount of fear that Sauron imposed upon him, Gollum was, on the one hand - the perfect "bait" imaginable, and on the other hand - he was the perfect hunter.

by jimzeller
If Sauron wanted to see if Gollum would lead him to the Shire, he should have done a much better job of tailing him.

From The Council of Elrond:

`Alas! alas!' cried Legolas, and in his fair elvish face there was great distress. `The tidings that I was sent to bring must now be told. They are not good, but only here have I learned how evil they may seem to this company. Sméagol, who is now called Gollum, has escaped.'
'Escaped?' cried Aragorn. 'That is ill news indeed. We shall all rue it bitterly, I fear. How came the folk of Thranduil to fail in their trust?'
'Not through lack of watchfulness,' said Legolas; `but perhaps through over-kindliness. And we fear that the prisoner had aid from others, and that more is known of our doings than we could wish. We guarded this creature day and nightt Gandalf's bidding, much though we wearied of the task. '
'It was that very night of summer, yet moonless and starless, that Orcs came on us at unawares. We drove them off after some time; they were many and fierce, but they came from over the mountains, and were unused to the woods. When the battle was over, we found that Gollum was gone, and his guards were slain or taken. It then seemed plain to us that the attack had been made for his rescue, and that he knew of it beforehand. How that was contrived we cannot guess;

It is visible how well organized and skilled the servants of Sauron were. Gollum was "snatched away" from a well guarded Elven realm.

From The Shadow of the Past:

'I endured him as long as I could, but the truth was desperately important, and in the end I had to be harsh. I put the fear of fire on him, and wrung the true story out of him, bit by bit, together with much snivelling and snarling. He thought he was misunderstood and ill-used. But when he had at last told me his history, as far as the end of the Riddle-game and Bilbo’s escape, he would not say any more, except in dark hints. Some other fear was on him greater than mine. He muttered that he was going to gel his own back. People would see if he would stand being kicked, and driven into a hole and then robbed. Gollum had good friends now, good friends and very strong. They would help him. Baggins would pay for it. That was his chief thought. He hated Bilbo and cursed his name. What is more, he knew where he came from.’

Sauron inflicted so much pain and fear on Gollum that even Gandalf could not wrench every little bit of information out of him. And even if Sauron did not perceive that Gollum would want the ring for himself if he found it - though I think that this was quite clear to Sauron, who knew the properties of the Ring and its effects well - even then...this would only serve as an asset to Sauron...the Ring was far more safe in Gollum's hands than in Frodo's. Would Gollum ever even dream of destroying the Ring? Never! If he had regained it, he would have kept using it until he was fully under Sauron's control, and the process of becoming a wraith complete. Gollum and the Ring would be easy prey for Sauron then. Again, letting Gollum go was all part of a prudent and well-thought plan.
Furthermore, it is evident from this passage that Sauron convinced Gollum that he was his "friend", in a way. At least as far as helping him obtain the Ring from the thieves who stole it. After all, it was Sauron's servants who rescued Gollum from the evil Orcs who imprisoned him. Gollum of course harboured his own secret thoughts beyond that - to keep the ring for himself and to break this little alliance with Sauron once he attains his goal.
Another marvellous trick Sauron pulled in tracking Gollum, is that he always kept his servants at a distance, so that Gollum wouldn't for one moment doubt that Sauron wanted to harm him or capture him again. Gollum saw in Sauron a rival also, and his anger would only had been more inflamed if he learned that he was being watched.

Both these quotes prove that Sauron did a good job at tracking Gollum, the best in fact that could be done under the circumstances. If they kept a close watch on Gollum at all times, he would certainly have grown suspicious of their motives, and eluded them. Gollum then went to Moria, and that is where the servants of Sauron lost him - it was not a failure; the mines were simply too unknown and vast for them to find him there. And remember that Gollum knew his way well through Moria, having spent innumerable years there.

Yes, Sauron was wise to release Gollum. It was evident (from Gollum's wretched appearance alone) that the Ring had consumed him; he had fallen under its influence and became its slave - and therefore Sauron's.

Sauron's error came from not knowing what Gollum was:

From Unfinished Tales; The Hunt for the Ring:

Now Sauron had never paid heed to the "Halflings," even if he had heard of them, and he did not yet know where their land lay.

Sauron's knowledge of hobbits was non-existent by all appearances. He had never paid any heed to them (even if he had vaguely hard about them, he would have quickly disregarded them as unimportant), for to his eyes they had no real value. Sauron's mind was set on power, dominion and control of others. Hobbits had no value in any of these fields. He had never considered "the small and the weak" in his counsels. Therefore Sauron could not have known about the extraordinary resilience that the Hobbits possessed, nor did he know of their uncanny ability to resist the power of the One Ring.

by jimzeller
Another thing that indicates Sauron's lack of wisdom is how could Sauron not know the whereabouts of an entire country like The Shire? After all, The Shire had been in existence for around 1400 years, they send soldiers to assist Arnor to fight the Witch King on the North Downs, and everybody in Middle Earth smokes their prime agricultural product, pipe-weed.

The Shire was a very "new" land. They kept themselves away from all affairs of the other peoples - they basically shut themselves into their little land and didn't draw attention to themselves. To the wars with Angmar they "sent some archers who never returned". Can we really blame the Witch King for not noticing "some" short people, who maybe didn't even make it to the main battle? Not really. And even if they were noticed, how would the Enemy know whence they came?
As for pipe weed, it was used only within the confines of the Shire, with a few exceptions: the Rangers of the North used it, Gandalf used it, and Saruman secretly used it. None of this would have been known to Sauron.

by jimzeller
Gollum did destroy the Ring.

That was a very unfortunate coincidence for both Gollum and Sauron, and it doesn't serve your cause in any way; since Sauron believed that Gollum would never destroy the Ring. And reasonably so.

by jimzeller
Gollum did lead Frodo and Sam into Mordor.

Yes, he lead them nearer the clutches of Sauron, and at all times desired to take the ring from Frodo (and therefore not destroy it). Again, this was not a mistake on Sauron's part.

Let's remind ourselves what the debate question is:
"given what Sauron must have known, was he wise to release Gollum?"
So given that Sauron DID NOT know about the part of Gollum (who was a hobbit) that was still untainted, and that this part of him would prove to be Sauron's undoing, releasing Gollum was not an unwise move after all.

There was of course a certain amount of risk involved in Sauron's decision. But where there is risk, there is also hope. And the better planned the risk, the better probabilities of success. And Sauron's plan was just that - wise and well-devised.

[BlackCaptain]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
That's not exactly 'right out of the book'. You make it sound like Sauron risked all without any proof or good reasons to release Gollum. Was Sauron's guess not backed up by something?
Sauron perceived the depth of Gollum's malice...and guessing that he would go in search of them to avenge himself....
Did not Gollum do just that? This was not a "guess", but a logical assumption. It does not mean that Sauron "took a guess (out of many possible answers)", he perceived the truth.

It may have been a logical guess, or a logical assumption, but you can never be too sure with guesses. You don't know if they will turn on you. It is unwise to trust Gollum ever. It may have been wise to take a guess, but the bottom line is it was not wise to release the death of you. It isn't even wise to guess now that I think of it. It's Gollum. If Sauron had known about the Smeagol side of Gollum, and had known about Gollum having a good side, and Gollum having a side that hated the Ring, I doubt he would have 'guessed'



It was easy for Sauron to know that Gollum lusted for the Ring, because that was what the Ring did to anyone - it slowly corrupted any goodness that was in a person, and it worked like a drug, in a way; it made you powerless to cast it away or put it aside.
Therefore, considering Gollum's immense lust for the Ring, coupled by the enormous amount of fear that Sauron imposed upon him, Gollum was, on the one hand - the perfect "bait" imaginable, and on the other hand - he was the perfect hunter.
Was he? Perfect hunters don't get trapped by what they're trying to hunt. Take the Emyn Muil for example. Take the ambush in Mordor. The strength of these two Hobbits turned them from the hunted into the hunters.



Sauron inflicted so much pain and fear on Gollum that even Gandalf could not wrench every little bit of information out of him. And even if Sauron did not perceive that Gollum would want the ring for himself if he found it - though I think that this was quite clear to Sauron, who knew the properties of the Ring and its effects well - even then...this would only serve as an asset to Sauron...the Ring was far more safe in Gollum's hands than in Frodo's. Would Gollum ever even dream of destroying the Ring? Never! If he had regained it, he would have kept using it until he was fully under Sauron's control, and the process of becoming a wraith complete. Gollum and the Ring would be easy prey for Sauron then. Again, letting Gollum go was all part of a prudent and well-thought plan.

But did this well-thought plan work? If I remember correctly, Gollum was the one who got the Hobbits into Mordor, and destroyed the Ring. Obviously, there was a mistake in Sauron's plan. That would make it unwise for Sauron to trust a 'sneak' like Gollum.


Yes, Sauron was wise to release Gollum. It was evident (from Gollum's wretched appearance alone) that the Ring had consumed him; he had fallen under its influence and became its slave - and therefore Sauron's.


Gollum had fallen under it's influence. Sauron forgot to calculate Smeagol, the part that hated the Ring. Like I said earlier, Sauron probly wouldnt have let Gollum go knowing that part of him hated the Ring.




Sauron's knowledge of hobbits was non-existent by all appearances. He had never paid any heed to them (even if he had vaguely hard about them, he would have quickly disregarded them as unimportant), for to his eyes they had no real value. Sauron's mind was set on power, dominion and control of others. Hobbits had no value in any of these fields. He had never considered "the small and the weak" in his counsels. Therefore Sauron could not have known about the extraordinary resilience that the Hobbits possessed, nor did he know of their uncanny ability to resist the power of the One Ring.

This right there shows Sauron's folly. I'm going to recall to the 'Hunters and Hunted' ideas I posted above. It was Sauron's folly, and unwisdom, that he disregarded Hobbits, and didn't care about them. He didn't take into account how strong Hobbits really are, and sending Gollum to get these creatures that he didn't even know about is folly. Say youv'e never heard of Lions. Would you send a sneak to retrieve something that the Lions have of yours, even if it is based on a good guess, just because Lions are 'cats'? Hearing 'cats' you would probably just think they are harmless, and if you send something to get them without having any more information, it would be un-wise, not having any more information. Now I don't mean to compare Hobbits to the king of the Jungle, but you have my general idea.




Let's remind ourselves what the debate question is:
"given what Sauron must have known, was he wise to release Gollum?"
So given that Sauron DID NOT know about the part of Gollum (who was a hobbit) that was still untainted, and that this part of him would prove to be Sauron's undoing, releasing Gollum was not an unwise move after all.

It was though, because Sauron did release Gollum. Sauron knew that Gollum was a treachourous sneak, even if he did want the Ring for himself and not to destroy it. In the end, Gollum destroyed the Ring, and no one could know that. Not even the Valar had they been there. It's not fair to say Sauron did not know Smeagol would have come back or not, because no one could. Releasing your death is NOT WISE under any circumstances, even if you do want to use wording of a question to your avail.

There was of course a certain amount of risk involved in Sauron's decision. But where there is risk, there is also hope. And the better planned the risk, the better probabilities of success. And Sauron's plan was just that - wise and well-devised. [/B]

I'll give you the well-devised part, but not wise. Like I've said before, it is never wise letting go your death. NEVER.

[Ithrynluin]

by BlackCaptain
If Sauron had known about the Smeagol side of Gollum, and had known about Gollum having a good side, and Gollum having a side that hated the Ring, I doubt he would have 'guessed'

All these "ifs" don't help you one bit. Sauron knew that Gollum lusted for the ring and would prove to be a great asset in hunting for it. That part of Gollum that hated the Ring was almost gone, and if Sauron knew more about hobbits and their "indomitable spirits" he probably wouldn't have done it. Bottom line: Sauron didn't know that, and as far as HE knew (not you or me), there was nothing wrong with his plan. That is what the debate question is, like it or not.

by BlackCaptain
It was though, because Sauron did release Gollum. Sauron knew that Gollum was a treachourous sneak, even if he did want the Ring for himself and not to destroy it. In the end, Gollum destroyed the Ring, and no one could know that. Not even the Valar had they been there. It's not fair to say Sauron did not know Smeagol would have come back or not, because no one could. Releasing your death is NOT WISE under any circumstances, even if you do want to use wording of a question to your avail.

You know what, BlackCaptain? It's easy for us readers and onlookers to just say "Clearly releasing Gollum was a bad idea, since he was the one who destroyed the Ring." You must put yourself in Sauron's shoes. Would a Maia like Sauron ever conceive that someone could actually sneak into the very heart of his realm? Heck, I know I wouldn't. Did Gollum ever dream that he himself could destroy it? No, and Sauron knew that.
How could Sauron or anyone possibly conceive that he was "releasing his death"? Yeah sure we know that, having seen it from everyone's perspective and knowing everything that happened.
But what should Sauron have done? Wait for some great lord to claim the Ring for themselves and challenge Sauron and possibly defeat him? That doesn't sound like a desirable scenario.
The destruction of the Ring happened through many many strange chances - Eru must have intervened at some points. Neither Gollum nor Frodo were capable of destroying the Ring, because they became slaves to the Ring. Sauron knew that well and he counted on that, and it was true. Frodo claimed the Ring for his own and Sauron was aware of him in that moment.

From Letter #246:

In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself.

From Letter #181:

He did rob him and injure him in the end – but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo!

Just because Gollum tripped over in the End and destroyed the Ring accidentally doesn't mean that Sauron's plan was not wise. It was, but I more than suspect that Eru put his foot in it at that moment, and Sauron could not have known that. The "grace" of Eru helped Frodo give up the Ring (even if against his own will), and destroyed Sauron's hopes.

From Letter #181:

Frodo was in such a position: an apparently complete trap: a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring's lure to power so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision. (Already Frodo had been unwilling to harm the Ring before he set out, and was incapable of surrendering it to Sam.)
The Quest was bound to fail as a piece of world-plan, and also was bound to end in disaster as the story of humble Frodo's development to the 'noble', his sanctification. Fail it would and did as far as Frodo considered alone was concerned.

So without the intervention of Eru, Frodo's plan was doomed from the beginning. Gollum leading them to Mordor only proved to be for Sauron's benefit, which means that Sauron's plan WAS wise.

by BlackCaptain
Was he? Perfect hunters don't get trapped by what they're trying to hunt. Take the Emyn Muil for example. Take the ambush in Mordor. The strength of these two Hobbits turned them from the hunted into the hunters.

Gollum was the perfect hunter according to his own stature. He was not omni-potent and it is unreasonable for us to assume that he would never get caught, especially taking into consideration his constant lust for the ring, which further decreased his skills. He was desperate to get the Ring.

by BlackCaptain
This right there shows Sauron's folly. I'm going to recall to the 'Hunters and Hunted' ideas I posted above. It was Sauron's folly, and unwisdom, that he disregarded Hobbits, and didn't care about them. He didn't take into account how strong Hobbits really are, and sending Gollum to get these creatures that he didn't even know about is folly.

Sauron's folly was that he never considered the small and the weak in his counsels. Just like Saruman, he deemed them worthless. And can we really blame him? Hobbits were pretty "worthless" up until the last few decades of the Third Age, and a Maia of Aulë would naturally not show any interest in things of little importance. He didn't know about hobbits when releasing Gollum, and this only adds to my point, as much as you dislike that.

[baragund]

Ithrynluin brings up two points in his initial post that needs further discussion.

The first point is Gollum's "indomitable spirit". Sauron "...did not trust Gollum, for he divined something indomitable in him, which could not be overcome, even by the Shadow of Fear, except by destroying him." Sauron was aware of Gollum's indomitable spirit as well as his remarkable degree of treachery. This, despite the torment Sauron put to Gollum, should have indicated to Sauron that Gollum at some point would try to double-cross him and keep the ring for his own. Sauron should have figured out that Gollum was pretty good at keeping himself hidden away, given that that was precisely what he did for almos all of the Third Age. Given all of this, Sauron should have had an effective Plan B and a Plan C in place as soon as Gollum eluded Sauron's servants in Moria.

The second point is Sauron's misjudgement of the worth of the halflings. His dismissal of them ultimately proved to be his ruin. If Gollum had an indomitable spirit, would others of his kind be similar? It does not indicate the wisdom of someone who discounts an entire race.

[BlackCaptain]

From Unfinished Tales; The Hunt for the Ring
Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017 and taken to Barad-Dûr and was questioned and tormented. When he had learned what he could from him, Sauron released him and sent him forth again. He did not trust Gollum, for he divined something indomitable in him, wich couold not be overcome even by the Shadow of Fear, except by destroying him. But Sauron percieved the depth of Gollum's malice towards those that had ''robed'' him, and guessing that he would go in search of them to avenge himself, Sauron hoped that his spies would thus be led to the Ring.

Sauron knew about Gollum's tendancy to betray people, and percieved Gollum's hate for his robbers, and guessed and hoped that Gollum would lead his servants to the Ring, when Gollum himself was searching for it. He guessed wrong, and played on a false hope. He knew what Gollum might do, and sent him away anyways, wich is unwise.

[Elendil3119]

jimzeller said:
This, despite the torment Sauron put to Gollum, should have indicated to Sauron that Gollum at some point would try to double-cross him and keep the ring for his own.
And then? The worst that could have happened, in Sauron's mind, was that Gollum could have obtained the Ring for himself, and then gone to sit under the Misty Mountains again. Gollum was not able, and had no desire to destroy the Ring. Gollum was as good a chance as Sauron would ever get. With Gollum, he had at least chance of obtaining the Ring; in fact, a very good chance. He could have just sat in Barad-dur and done nothing. Would that have been wise? What if Denethor had obtained the Ring? Gandalf?

BlackCaptain said:
He guessed wrong, and played on a false hope. He knew what Gollum might do, and sent him away anyways, wich is unwise.
It is all too easy to look at the result, and then conclude that Sauron was not wise. Given the choices, Gollum was better than most. What might Gollum have done though? At very least, Sauron was assured that if Gollum obtained the Ring, It would not fall into the hands of a great king. Sauron's chance of getting the Ring by Gollum leading His servants to It was much greater than by any other means.
'Now Sauron had never paid heed to the "Halflings," even if he had heard of them, and he did not yet know where their land lay. From Gollum, even under pain, he could not get any clear account, both because Gollum indeed had no certain knowledge himself, and because what be knew he falsified.'
Sauron's disregard for the hobbits was out of ignorance. He could get no true information out of Gollum, and therefore, his only chance was to let Gollum himself lead the way to the Ring. Given the choices, Sauron was wise in releasing Gollum.

[BlackCaptain]

Or perhaps Sauron should have just kept Gollum in Barad Dur? That would be better than letting him go.

Elendil3119 wrote:
Given the choices, Gollum was better than most. What might Gollum have done though? At very least, Sauron was assured that if Gollum obtained the Ring, It would not fall into the hands of a great king.

Better than most? Who else was there?

Sauron let Gollum go, hoping that Gollum would go in search of the Ring, and lead his trackers to the Ring. This would be a wise choice, but Sauron had a shadow of a doubt, and he disregarded it. That's unwise. It wasn't the best choice as you think it is. The best choice would have been to not let Gollum go at all. He should have been more wary of this doubt.

''Sauron was assured that if Gollum obtained the Ring''.
But did Gollum obtain the Ring after he was let loose?
No.
So was Sauron assured of anything?
No.

[Ithrynluin]

by BlackCaptain
Sauron knew about Gollum's tendancy to betray people, and percieved Gollum's hate for his robbers, and guessed and hoped that Gollum would lead his servants to the Ring, when Gollum himself was searching for it. He guessed wrong, and played on a false hope. He knew what Gollum might do, and sent him away anyways, wich is unwise.

Gollum wanted to own the Ring again. Why should this be a hindrance to Sauron to not release him? Gollum would either lead Sauron to the whereabouts of the Ring, or take the Ring for his own, which would in due time cause him to fall under Sauron's complete control and voila! the Ring is Sauron's again. Gollum of course did neither of those things, but this was not Sauron's failure, but Gollum's. Gollum did succeed in bringing the Ring into Mordor, and the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed, were it not for a strange chance and intervention of Eru (like I said before).
Sitting idly in Mordor, waiting for some of the great and wise to claim the Ring for their own and possibly overthrow Sauron with it, is not exactly what I would call 'a good plan'.

by BlackCaptain
Or perhaps Sauron should have just kept Gollum in Barad Dur? That would be better than letting him go.

And that would have been better...how? Gollum was a slave to the Ring, and therefore an asset to Sauron. Making use of your assets is sensible.

by BlackCaptain
''Sauron was assured that if Gollum obtained the Ring''.
But did Gollum obtain the Ring after he was let loose?
No.
So was Sauron assured of anything?
No.

Are you looking for 100% guarantees? There are none. In everything we do, there's always a risk.

by jimzeller
The second point is Sauron's misjudgement of the worth of the halflings. His dismissal of them ultimately proved to be his ruin. If Gollum had an indomitable spirit, would others of his kind be similar? It does not indicate the wisdom of someone who discounts an entire race.

Indeed. Sauron's disregard of the race of hobbits was folly - no doubt about it. However, this is irrelevant to our debate. Sauron did not know what kind of creature Gollum was and therefore he couldn't liken his "indomitable spirit" to the halflings of the Shire who were in possession of the Ring (according to Gollum).
Moreover, the Shire was established in TA 1601, it was a very new land, and I'm sure that many peoples - good and evil - were clueless of its existance. The Shire was also located in the heart of Eriador, and Sauron's influence wasn't exactly great there.

by jimzeller
This, despite the torment Sauron put to Gollum, should have indicated to Sauron that Gollum at some point would try to double-cross him and keep the ring for his own.

Gollum's "double-crossing" would only benefit Sauron in the end, as I have stated several times now.

[BlackCaptain]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Gollum wanted to own the Ring again. Why should this be a hindrance to Sauron to not release him? Gollum would either lead Sauron to the whereabouts of the Ring, or take the Ring for his own, which would in due time cause him to fall under Sauron's complete control and voila! the Ring is Sauron's again. Gollum of course did neither of those things, but this was not Sauron's failure, but Gollum's. Gollum did succeed in bringing the Ring into Mordor, and the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed, were it not for a strange chance and intervention of Eru (like I said before).
Sitting idly in Mordor, waiting for some of the great and wise to claim the Ring for their own and possibly overthrow Sauron with it, is not exactly what I would call 'a good plan'.

But it is wise to take into account some things that could possibly happen when going through with a plan. Foresight is a big part of being wise. Sauron only thought 'Hey, he either leads the my servants to the Ring, or takes it for himself. What could go wrong?'. Gollum could reluctantly try to do good, and to be a better person (for lack of better description), and help the enemy. This was a possiblility, and Sauron didn't try to think about that. Sauron knew that Gollum was a decietful creature, and over-esttimated the Ring's power on Gollum. Sauron never would have thought that Gollum could possibly ever want to destroy the Ring, because he didn't think Golllum would use some of that decietfulness on him. He figured that Gollum wouldnt betray him, and that nothing bad could happen by letting him go. That wasn't a good move.

Bottom line (at least in this post):

Sauron knew that Gollum was decietful, and sensed something bad in him. Sauron disregarded this (bad move), thinking Gollum wouldn't betray the Ring and Him. He sent him off, thinking only good could come from it, wich didn't happen. Bad move. Unwise.

Obvioulsy if Gollum did ultimately destroy the Ring (And you can't use Eru as an excuse), Sauron hadn't completely thought out his decisioin to release Gollum.

[Ithrynluin]

by BlackCaptain
Sauron never would have thought that Gollum could possibly ever want to destroy the Ring, because he didn't think Golllum would use some of that decietfulness on him.

Exactly. Gollum never tried to destroy the Ring, and Sauron was right in thinking he wouldn't.

by BlackCaptain
Sauron knew that Gollum was decietful, and sensed something bad in him. Sauron disregarded this (bad move), thinking Gollum wouldn't betray the Ring and Him.

Gollum leading Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom was all part of Gollum's long-term plan to get the Ring for himself. Gollum never betrayed the Ring, and Sauron was correct in thinking he wouldn't.

by BlackCaptain
Obvioulsy if Gollum did ultimately destroy the Ring (And you can't use Eru as an excuse), Sauron hadn't completely thought out his decisioin to release Gollum.

So not being able to foresee every little twist and turn, every little unbelievable coincidence...makes one unwise then?

And for you to deny the intervention of Eru at the last is very unwise. I guess you didn't notice (or chose to ignore) the letter I quoted in one of my previous posts, so I'll do you a favour and quote it again, with some more context.

From Letter #181:

But at this point the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end – but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo! By a situation created by his 'forgiveness', he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden. He was very justly accorded the highest honours – since it is clear that he & Sam never concealed the precise course of events. Into the ultimate judgement upon Gollum I would not care to enquire. This would be to investigate 'Goddes privitee', as the Medievals said. Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him.

In the end, Frodo was saved and rewarded for his constant pity and forgiveness for Gollum. It is pretty obvious whose work this was - Eru's. The fact that Gollum worked good in the end was no credit to himself or his indomitability (and understandably so), and therefore it was an unexpected event for anyone to foresee. Sauron was not unwise for not doing so because it was beyond even him.

This debate is coming to an end slowly, and I suggest that we post closing posts soon.

[BlackCaptain]

ithrynluin posted
Exactly. Gollum never tried to destroy the Ring, and Sauron was right in thinking he wouldn't.

Sauron was right in thinking Gollum wouldnt destroy the Ring? Umm... Gollum did destroy the Ring, wich makes it wrong.
But I see what your getting at.


I agree with you that it was never Gollum intention to have the Ring destroyed, but that isn't the debate.

Sauron knew, or sensed that Gollum was a decietful little sneak. Sauron let him go anyways, wich wasn't a good move.

This was a great debate, or still is since it isnt' quite finished yet. Nice job all of you...

[baragund]

Here is some supporting information that bolsters my earlier post that talked about Sauron unwisely discounting Gollum’s “indomitable spirit” and Sauron unwisely dismissing the race of the Hobbits at the time he released Gollum. Listed below are a series of events taken from The Tale of Years, Appendix B, ROTK that relate to Gollum and the hunt for the Ring, and then discussion on how Sauron would have been aware of those events but failed to adequately consider them when he decided to release Gollum in 3017.

TA 1050 – Hobbits first enter the records with the Harfoots emigrating to Eriador.

1150 – First migrations of the Stoors (Gollum’s group) to The Angle and to Dunland.

1600 – Hobbits migrate west from Bree to beyond Anduin. The Stoors join them circa 1630.

2060 – The Wise first suspect that the power taking shape in Dol Guldur is Sauron.

2460 – After being driven from Dol Guldur in 2063 by Gandalf, Sauron returns to Dol Guldur in greater strength

2463 – The White Council is formed. Deagol, the Stoor, finds the Ring and is murdered by Smeagol.

2470 – Smeagol / Gollum hides in the Misty Mountains.

2480 – Orcs make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains. Sauron peoples Moria with his creatures.

2850 – Gandalf enters Dol Guldur and discovers that its master is Sauron. Who is gathering the rings and seeking news of the One, and of Isuldur’s heir.

2851 – Meeting of the White Council. Saruman overrules Gandalf’s request to attack Dol Guldur. Saruman begins to search for the ring near the Gladden Fields.

2939 – Saruman discovers Sauron’s servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields and that Sauron has learned of Isildur’s end.

2941 – Bilbo finds the Ring and meets Gollum. Saruman agrees to attack on Dol Guldur since he does not want Sauron to search the river.

2944 – Gollum leaves the mountains to search for the ‘thief’ of the Ring.

2951 – Gollum turns toward Mordor.

2953 – Last meeting of the White Council. Saruman feigns that the Ring passed down Anduin to the Sea. Saruman sets spies on Gandalf and on The Shire.

2980 – Gollum approaches the borders of Mordor and becomes acquainted with Shelob.

3000 – Saruman becomes ensnared by Sauron after using the Palantir at Orthanc.

3009 – Gollum enters Mordor and is captured.

3017 – Gollum is released from Mordor.

July 10 3018 – Gandalf is imprisoned in Orthanc.

These events indicate that not only did Sauron know everything that Gollum knew about the Ring and about hobbits, he also knew Saruman’s mind as well. Moreover, he knew a lot about Gandalf’s suspicions and concerns since he was not aware of Saruman’s betrayal until 3018. Sauron basically had a window into the White Council.

This is how Sauron should have reasonably deduced that there was a link between Gollum and the Hobbits. Gollum would have certainly been aware of the migrations of his kin to the area west of Baranduin some 800 years before he came into possession of the Ring. There were cross migrations in both directions over the mountains over the years and certainly communication between the communities. The point is, Sauron should have suspected, after extracting this information from Gollum and comparing to the little he already knew, that there could have been a relationship between Gollum and the Hobbits. Sauron should have made contingencies for the possibility that the ‘thief’ Baggins would have a similar ‘indomitable spirit’ as Gollum and that this ‘indomitable spirit’ was indeed a characteristic trait of the Hobbits. Sauron must have known the whereabouts of the Shire and basic information about Hobbits from his ensnarement of Saruman. Sauron would have the same benefit of Saruman’s spies on the Shire and on Gandalf. He did not need Gollum to lead him to the Shire.

Another key point I did not bring up earlier is Gollum’s relationship with Shelob. Sauron would have known that Gollum met Shelob. Even though Shelob is thoroughly evil, she had no allegience or loyalty to Sauron (similar to the relationship between Ungoliant and Morgoth). Given Gollum’s ‘indomitable spirit’ Sauron should have been mindful that Gollum might try to pull something with Shelob’s help.

In conclusion, the only way Sauron could have made Gollum’s release a wise move was if he had put a VERY close watch on Gollum or, better yet, to put him under the direct supervision of Men who were loyal to Sauron. Also, Sauron still should have had contingency plans in place in the event Gollum did something unexpected.

[Ithrynluin]

by jimzeller
These events indicate that not only did Sauron know everything that Gollum knew about the Ring and about hobbits,

Gollum didn't know much about Hobbits, or he had forgotten it. Sauron clearly knew nothing about hobbits as it says in the quote I provided before (which I will not bother to repeat).

As for the timeline you provided, how the heck was Sauron supposed to know about all that?

TA 1050 – Hobbits first enter the records with the Harfoots emigrating to Eriador.

Sauron only began "stirring" in Mirkwood around this time, meaning he had very little power or influence in Middle Earth for some time to come. He didn't know about the hobbits at all.

by jimzeller
he also knew Saruman’s mind as well.

Saruman told Sauron some things, and Sauron perceived some others. But Sauron definitely did NOT know all of Saruman's thoughts (as you seem to imply), which was clearly evident from the fact that neither Sauron nor the Ringwraiths did not know where the Shire lay. You must keep in mind that Saruman was a traitor to both parties, he wanted the Ring for himself and he would not reveal some crucial information to Sauron.

by jimzeller
In conclusion, the only way Sauron could have made Gollum’s release a wise move was if he had put a VERY close watch on Gollum or, better yet, to put him under the direct supervision of Men who were loyal to Sauron.

Yes, I'm sure Gollum would have been enthusiastic about being guarded non-stop and leading Sauron to the Ring. He would have refused to show them where the Shire lay, and even if they tormented him he would not reveal it (just like he displayed his "indomitable spirit" in Mordor).

by jimzeller
Another key point I did not bring up earlier is Gollum’s relationship with Shelob. Sauron would have known that Gollum met Shelob. Even though Shelob is thoroughly evil, she had no allegience or loyalty to Sauron (similar to the relationship between Ungoliant and Morgoth). Given Gollum’s ‘indomitable spirit’ Sauron should have been mindful that Gollum might try to pull something with Shelob’s help.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this is a "key point". Your assumption is far-fetched and inconclusive. I already provided my reasons as to why it wouldn't be that bad if Gollum took the Ring - it would be much safer in his hands than in the hands of his enemies, don't you think? In owning the Ring to himself, Gollum would force himself to become totally and completely subservient to Sauron.

Unless you have some new arguements and stop repeating yourselves (and forcing me to repeat myself), I will not reply again, except maybe to post a concluding post (which is not a must). Thanks for the debate you guys.

[BlackCaptain]

I have to say, ithrynluin, you are byfar the best debator ive ever encountered. Well done.

[baragund]

In response to Ithrynluin's last post, I offer the following:

Gollum didn't know much about Hobbits, or he had forgotten it. Sauron clearly knew nothing about hobbits as it says in the quote I provided before (which I will not bother to repeat).

How do you know that Gollum forgot his ancestry? He recalled his past easily enough in the riddle-game he played with Bilbo. Regarding what Sauron knew about the hobbits, I believe the reference also included a DISREGARD of what little he did know about hobbits. Sauron's awareness of hobbits and The Shire must have increased after he ensnared Saruman in TA 3000 and then captured Gollum in 3009.

Saruman told Sauron some things, and Sauron perceived some others. But Sauron definitely did NOT know all of Saruman's thoughts (as you seem to imply), which was clearly evident from the fact that neither Sauron nor the Ringwraiths did not know where the Shire lay

Neither of us have any idea how much or how little Saruman could have witheld from Sauron, but it is reasonable to deduce that Sauron chose to disregard any information he could have gleaned from Saruman about hobbits and The Shire as irrelevant.

Ithrynluin, you'e right about two things. The Shelob bit was pretty thin:rolleyes: , and we are at the point where we are starting to beat a dead horse so I'll make my closing statement and then be quiet.

CLOSING STATEMENT
Between the ensnarement of Saruman and the capture of Gollum, Sauron should have been able to "put two and two together" and figure out where The Shire was and, hence, where the 'thief' Baggins lived. At that point, he could have merely assembled a company of trusted Easterlings or Southrons and got in and out of The Shire before the West knew what hit them. By putting all of his hopes of finding the ring on a "guess" that Gollum would somehow lead him to the Ring, Sauron either disrgarded the information he gleaned, or he incorrectly interpreted the information...both demonstrating a lack of wisdom.

If I were Sauron, I would have left Gollum in the dungeons of Barad-dur for all eternity.