The First Picture of Sauron in the World!

[Michel Delving]

This is it! Here it is! Click the attachment for a MAJOR LEAGUE SPOILER EXTREME!:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Celebthôl]

am i the only one that got a pic of an Orc there?

[Michel Delving]

Cunning isn't it. The way PJ/New Line et al have actually revealed Sauron's true face by pretending it is something else. Don't be fooled by descriptions/captions under pictures. This is the real squeal! The clue is in the background. Look closely.

[Celebthôl]

hmmm, i can only see Mordor and Mount Doom...or were thet the clues...o must warn you i totally dont get symbolism, so if you dont want to spoil it can you PM me as to why...:confused:

Thôl

[Michel Delving]

It's right under your nose! And his!:(

[Celebthôl]

I still have no idea...i am REALLY slow :( :rolleyes:

[Michel Delving]

Take a look at attachment below (2nd from the right) and look again at first attachment. Then get excited!

[Galdor]

ACK!! I still don't see anything.......

[Anamatar IV]

Is it that his nose isn't as pointed as the Orcs masks?

But if that is Sauron it's pretty good...

[Michel Delving]

2nd from the right and the wings! Surely you've twigged!

[ladyoflorien]

was it you micheal that said sauron was a werewolf too? is that what your getting at? the orcish guy (that i guess is sauron) in the first pic is sauron as a werewolf? am i close?

[howdie]

"orcs were once elves mutilated by the dark forces"

i wouldnt put it past Jackson to link the two together, with Sauron as a Dark Elf

[ladyoflorien]

where did you get that? where did you get the whole "dark elf" thing howdie?? help?

[Michel Delving]

Your moving in the right direction. Look at what's in the background of the first picture (as below).

[Arvedui]

I might be very tired, but that doesn't men diddley to me. Looks just like a piece of rock.
What is so special about it?

[Gandalf White]

it is a piece of rock. Sauron reappears in rock form to try and improve the morale of his troops by making them boulder. :D

[Lantarion]

:D lmao
Sorry Michel, we all seem to be utter nincompoops (although I'm only speaking for myself). :rolleyes:

[Michel Delving]

I think you'll find it's something sitting on a rock! :rolleyes:

[Gandalf White]

Hmmm, I see a slight shadow. BTW, Michael Delving, how did you think this up?

On second thought, Sauron as a boulder might be cool. Heh, all the orcs in the next movie can sing "We will we will rock you" in the next movie. :D ;)

[Michel Delving]

I didn't think it up.

From shadowofthepast.net:

...from insider sources at New Line Cinema. It states that the ever mischievous Mr Jackson and his crew have quietly given us a sneak preview of the much discussed physical form of Sauron. Unobtrusively inserting it in the Official Return of the King Calender. True fans will have spotted it straight away due to the distant background presence of...

well, I'll let you work it out for yourselves.

:)

[Anamatar IV]

I don't know it looks kind of like a spider to me on the rock...maybe Shelob?

Come on! Just tell us:p

BTW--Michel Delving, I think you made this up....that website is non-existent.:)

[Michel Delving]

Ring any Bells? - Click Here - BIG CLUE! (http://www.tolkien-movies.com/images/archive/characters/newline-balrog1.jpg)

Sorry Anamatar IV, website (in my previous post - not the BIG CLUE link above) should have been shadowofthering.net. Unfortunately, I can't find an exact link at the moment. I think there was more to the Web address. Can anyone help, tried a search but it keeps coming up with Wild West Reenactment Weekends!

:confused:

[PRH]

You are completely full of it as usual MD. Good fun though!

I think he's trying to imply that the thing in the background is a bat.

[Michel Delving]

Knock the t off bat and add a bit that rhymes with log and then what has it got in its pocketses?

Look at the BIG CLUE picture for a BBBBBIIIGGG CLUE!

It's not the old Nazgul chestnut again PRH!

[TommyMagic]

Hi, im knew by the way lol

Altough the BIG CLUE pic wont load for me im guessing u think its a balrog, right?!?!? now if im right with that, please dont call my stupidity here lol but why is that significant? surely any orc could be there and a balrog behind him?!

If u dont think it is a balrog, please go further and explain for us, well, "us" lol

thanks a lot!

[Gandalf White]

Heh, the BBBIIIIGGG CLUE doesn't work for me. How convenient! ;) :D

Ok, let's go over what we know so far. In the picture is a big, bluish orc showing you the reason not to go to his dentist. Behind him is a rock that is actually Sauron who looks like a Balrog with string in its pocketses. Am I getting close? ;) :D

[GuardianRanger]

When I clicked on the link for the clue, I got a 403 error - Forbiden.

[Ol'gaffer]

Michael, I'm sorry to spoil your excitement but you're completely off right now. That picture is of the infamous "albino uruk hai" that was created by acident as one of the photos turned out negative. Also, the background according to the official site is just a part of Mordor, and it isn't in anyway symbolic or anything.

PJ has announced that that picture will be used as promotional photos of the movie titled "the albino uruk hai" and will have no refrence to sauron whatsoever.

PJ also announced that Sauron will be seen but as what, they aren't announcing it yet, but rumours suggest two things:

1) He appears on the battlefield like in the prologue.
2) We see a shadow of him moments before his doom as in the book.

But neither are announced yet and like Sarumans death scene, only PJ and the crew know what is going to happen.

[Michel Delving]

Can you lot spell my name right plllllleease! :rolleyes:

Have you never been wandering North of Hobbiton and West of the Brandywine Bridge? You'd be most welcome in my hole! At the place of my birth named after long generations of Delvings.

IT'S MICHE L! NO A!

You too, Ol'gaffer, fooled by the official line! Never take PJ's word for anything, haven't you learned that by now! It is Sauron! Check out my original quote.

Sorry about that BIG CLUE link. The site mustn't allow linking. Eagle eyed amongst you will have spotted what was coming loading in the Address bar of your browser anyway.

Yes it's a Balrog! Huzzzahhh!Not a piece of rock!

Readers of the Silmarillion will recall Balrogs were the main weapons of war used by Melkor and Sauron. The Balrog was one of the greatest visual creations of the first movie. Insiders have said that PJ is dead keen to use it again. Like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park (who Spielberg correctly pointed out was the true star of the movie) audiences would have been disappointed if it hadn't appeared again at the end. Therefore Sauron appears at the Battle outside the Black Gate with a horde of Balrogs. Hence the clue in the picture. Hence the insider reference to the Sil. Hence the FACT that the picture is indeed of Sauron himself. Hence: I'm right!

[Phee]

LOL, if you say so Michel. :p

Personally, I don't know what purpose there'd be to showing any more Balrogs. It'd just serve to confuse the audience. I'm sure they've got something else in mind for Sauron, most likely something that resembles how he looked in the prologue so viewers can easily make the connection that it's the same character.

[Arvedui]

I'd still say it's a piece of low-value, real-estate. i.e, a rock.;)

Edit: Wait, I get it. It's a BalROCK!:D

[TommyMagic]

Although the idea of Sauron appearing at the battle with a hoard of Balrogs does sound immensely cool to think about the visuals and atmosphere of the film, it does kind of REALLY go off track from the book! i mean PJ might just be able to get away with bringing Sauron to the battle, but balrogs? It took Gandalf to give his "life" to defeat ONE, if he brings a hoard, i think the aspect of 'no-bodys' or even Aragorn, Legolas, ANYONE being able to defeat them would kind of diminish the superb Gandolf/Balrog scen in FOTR, dont ya think?

I also agree that if we do see Sauron he will be in the exact same form as in the Prologue, or else it will be really confusing, like seeing Elrond in the Prologue then having him played by a completely different actor in the main films.

But, never the less, we shall have to wait and see.......

[Ol'gaffer]

Michel, you can believe what you want to believe. I just wanted to point out that even PJ would not go that far as in marketing the return of the king with the image of sauron as an orc with a balrog sitting on a rock in the background. Have you any idea how stupid that sounds? sheesh.

[NetherDemon]

OOooooh I see it now!!

Sauron is really Quasimoto! Hunchback of Notre Dame! That thing sticking out of Sauron's back is a Hunch!

Thanks for pointing that out to us!

lol

[NetherDemon]

Originally posted by TommyMagic
Although the idea of Sauron appearing at the battle with a hoard of Balrogs does sound immensely cool to think about the visuals and atmosphere of the film, it does kind of REALLY go off track from the book! i mean PJ might just be able to get away with bringing Sauron to the battle, but balrogs? It took Gandalf to give his "life" to defeat ONE, if he brings a hoard, i think the aspect of 'no-bodys' or even Aragorn, Legolas, ANYONE being able to defeat them would kind of diminish the superb Gandolf/Balrog scen in FOTR, dont ya think?

I also agree that if we do see Sauron he will be in the exact same form as in the Prologue, or else it will be really confusing, like seeing Elrond in the Prologue then having him played by a completely different actor in the main films.

But, never the less, we shall have to wait and see.......

Well, as soon as Gollum takes the ring into the lava and destroys it, the Balrogs, Orcs and Sauron all go POOF!

I HIGHLY doubt Sauron will be in the movie. Maybe as a dream sequence or a flashback, but he wont actually be in the battles in RTOK.

[Michel Delving]

Oh dear, oh dear Ol'gaffer you really have been duped by the New Line Marketing Machine. The FACTS are right before your eyes and yet you still deny what is quite plainly obvious. I despair, I really do.

Just think: The Black Gate, Eight Hovering Nazgul Steeds, Cave Trolls, masses of Orcs flowing like a black river, Sauron striding across the battle field at the head of a Battalion of Balrogs and a huge Dragon for good measure! The Return of the Fell Beasts!

Then pop: Gollum drops into the Crack of Doom like a sugar lump into a cup of tea. And Sauron is unmasked (just like Darth) revealing his true face (as in my picture) then all darkness fades and falls.

Fade to black.

[GuardianRanger]

"Fade To Black" - cool Metallica song, but I digress.

Your description sounds more like the Last Aliance II. While it sounds cool, and visually would be neat to see, I just don't think it will happen. As it is, there is a lot of the story to tell, especially the pieces of The Tow Towers that were not actually in the movie. Add to it the storys of Return of the King. To add in a lot of Balrogs and Dragons would seem to be a lot of extra money and time. Also, I think if there were going to be dragons in Return Of The King, that tidbit might have been accidently released by this point. That's not a secret that would easily be kept. (And I am aware that we truely don't know how Saurman will end up.)

Yes, I know Peter has embellished the story, and added his personal touches here and there; and whether or not those touches have merit has been vociferously debated. To add Balrogs and Dragons to the final battle scenes would be a big departure from the story at the expense of a lot of money and time.

Personally, I didn't take it that when Gollum falls into the Crack, that hordes of darkness went "Pop." I pictured it more as the orcs and lesser creatures were released from thralldom, and not knowing what to do, ran about like the expression: "like chickens with no heads." Sauron might have been ended, taking with him his more powerful minions; but I'm not sure of all of them ending.

Just my two cents.

[Lúthien Séregon]

If you look really closely at that rock in the foreground, it looks kind of like a face, with the pointy bit being the nose.

[Gandalf White]

Wait, I missed something. Michel, are you saying the albino orc is actually Sauron? Heheheahaha, how do you come up with this???:D

1) Can you imagine how utterly hopeless the battle would be with several Balrogs charging in? Too much even for PJ.
2) If you're implying that Sauron is an orc, just think about it. The orcs have been shown stupid, yet Sauron made the Ring. During the first two movies we see an imposing figure in cool, evil armor, and a huge, menacing eye. We get to the end, the huge evil figure strides out, and *poof* we have an orc??? albino nonetheless! Nope, it's not going to happen, sorry. :rolleyes:

[Michel Delving]

Please read more closely in future Gandalf White!:rolleyes:

I have already described the reason for the Balrogs as they were the main Weapons of Mass Destruction employed by Melkor and Sauron in past battles.

And, as I have described here: Lovely Old Thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10695) what most of you mistakingly describe as an albino Orc, is in fact one of the many faces of Sauron (after he is unmasked at the final battle).

All would seem hopeless at the arrival of such force but as I have pointed out their power would be lost on the Rings destruction.

Just you wait and see!:) !

[Anamatar IV]

Michel, read on in the Silmarillion. After the Downfall of Numenor Sauron couldn't change shape anymore.

The Balrog adds nothing to whether this Orc is Sauron or not. It could be a captain of Sauron's armies. It could be a centinel watching the armies of the West coming. There is no solid proof that this is Sauron.

I'm reminded by a series of threads started by one poster that were totally rediculous but got us believing the person thought this nevertheless....Michel are you trying to play a belated April Fool's day trick on us?

[Michel Delving]

I'm afraid, Animator IV, that textual references are irrelevant when it comes to the discussion of Mr Jackson's interpretation of Tolkien. This has been proved on countless occasions throughout these pages and need not be delved into again.

As you can see, in the right hand corner of the screen you're looking at, today is not April the 1st. I would also not stoop so low as to create a fictitious hypothesis. It insults both your intelligence and mine.

Let's look at it as a deductive syllogism:


Balrogs and Sauron existed in an Ancient Age.

Sauron and Balrogs exist in the Third Age.

Balrogs and Sauron are the Third Age's Ancients.




Juxtaposing the two as a marketing ploy fulfills the Lexicon of insider knowledge. Both deductive and inductive reasoning are played to, like a veritable Hegelistic experience of Lord of the Rings. Cogito ergo sum.

Ergo: Sauron!

[howdie]

Originally posted by Ol'gaffer
Michel, you can believe what you want to believe. I just wanted to point out that even PJ would not go that far as in marketing the return of the king with the image of sauron as an orc with a balrog sitting on a rock in the background. Have you any idea how stupid that sounds? sheesh.

hmm, they say Jackson could nt ruin the LOTR more than he had done in FOTR, BUT GUESS WHAT???

bilbo's cave trolls walking in sunlight, evil Faramir...oh yes, PJ would go that far

[Ol'gaffer]

Pj has given clarification on the subject that wether or not Sauron will appear in the upcoming return of the king, the following statement was found from a site promoting the launch of all three movies:

In perspective, not showing Sauron at the end of The Return Of The King would be like not showing Darth Vader or Darth Maul in the Star Wars movies. We feel also that showing too much of him would differ too much from what Tolkien originally intended. So what we're doing now is making a compromise with Tolkiens idea of his shadow and our vision of him in battle as seen in the prologue to the Fellowship Of The Ring. Most likely we'll have a finished shot of him by the time the first trailers and promotional material comes to the public to see.

So things being as they are, this is the most reallistic idea that most likely will be seen in the final version.

But Sarumans death, now that's an entirely different topic.

[Michel Delving]

And you obviously made that quote up Ol'gaffer! :D :D :D

LOLOLOL!

You have your sources all wrong.

Dig out the real truth and ye shall see diamonds.

[Ol'gaffer]

You know Michel, I give up. You truly are clueless and you just won't listen to anything other than what you believe.

It's pointless to waste anymore energy on you. So continue living in la-la land and be happy. :rolleyes:

[Michel Delving]

When what you believe is proven FACT and the TRUTH you must Carry On Relentlessly.

Don't give up old gaff you'll get there in the end.

DREAM THAT DREAM! :D

[Gandalf White]

Wow Michel, I wish we were neighbors or lived close by, cuz I'd bet you a $50 bill that your full of hot air and nothing your saying will happen. We would then proceed to see the movie together, and I wouldn't let you out of the theatre until you paid me my $50!

Of course, the simplest way to resolve this "argument" is to wait until December, and secretly laugh up our sleeves at Michel Delving as we watch events totally different from his unfold.

[Michel Delving]

ahhh yes, the sweet sound of laughter ringing through my brain.

:D :) ;) :D

[Sarah]

it looks like a balrog to me

[Aulë]

Michel, since when do they supply computers in mental institutions? ;)

Sauron would not leave his tower, unless it was at the ut-most need. Even in the Last Alliance, he didn't appear until after a seven year seige, and that was when he had the power of the Ring under his control.
Sauron is a Maia, as are Balrogs, so I'll give you credit their for coming up with that. But there are no Balrogs in Mordor (at least in Tolkien's version). And there are NO DRAGONS south of the Gray Mountains.
Surely PJ wouldn't deviate that much from Tolkien's books.

[howdie]

Originally posted by Aulë
Michel, since when do they supply computers in mental institutions? ;)


Since they supplie done to Peter Jackson and Co....they say he couldnt ruin Faramir either

[Michel Delving]

Surely PJ wouldn't deviate that much from Tolkien's books. - that was posted by you Aulë.




hee hee hee:p

Oh, the naivety of youth. Please read every other post in the entire forum section entitled New Line Cinema's 'LOTR' Trilogy. Every other Hollywoodism we've seen ( Let's go hunt some Orc!, the Where's Mama? stuff, Sam's something good in this world speech etc) have pointed to classic or cliched movie moments (depending on your own perspective). Do you really think PJ won't throw in the most Apocalyptic Middle Earth vision we've seen yet, at the Battle? Surely that would detract from the Film ethos we've seen so far.

It's going to be AWESOME and thank you Sarah!:p

[Aulë]

Ah well,
All shall be revealed in just over 8 months time.

And I do hope that if PJ does his traditional 'alterations' to the book, that he throws in a nice big army of Dwarves to show up for the final battle. :)

By the way Michel, have you hunted down any pics of Ghan-buri-ghan yet? I know that he's in the movie, since an actor was cast in the role of him.

[Michel Delving]

Never heard of him. Who he?

[Aulë]

The Pukel man from the Druadan Forest.

http://www.imdb.com/Name?Kaa,%20Wi%20Kuki

[Michel Delving]

Ah yes, I recall. He was the one who showed Theoden how to get roundabout to the roustabout of the Fields and is pictured below.

Wi Kuki Kaa at the wrap party in Wellington:-

[Aulë]

Ahh, good find.

OK, how bout the actress who plays Elanor?
Her name is Alexandra Astin (Sean Astin's daughter).

[Michel Delving]

No luck there, sorry.

Looks like she'll be the last mystery.

[Arvedui]

There is no way that it is a Balrog in that picture. It doesn't have wings!;)

But on the other hand, perhaps, Balrocks don't have wings?:confused:

[Michel Delving]

What's sticking out of its shoulders then!

Cruise Missiles!?!:rolleyes:


Do you think the Balrogs will come Locked & Loaded to the Final Battle? Shoulder mounted Nuclear Devices would be a nice touch.:eek:

[SpencerC18]

dude put lasers on their frick'n heads doctor evil style lol

[Michel Delving]

Homes, I hear it said that the Balrogs will indeed be armed with more than whips for the final battle. A projectile style flamethrower that can pump out fireballs at 53 clicks per sec.

The last onslaught will not only feature a descendant of Smaug but Shelob's Mom Ungoliant will turn up and kick some Elf!

[krash8765]

PJ better not put balrogs in the last battle. Anyways if he put balrogs in it who would stop them? The rohirrim? Aragorn. I doubt it. They would all be utterly chopped to pieces unless the balrogs were at the battle of the black gate but still thats straying alot from the books. Only a "few" balrogs escaped from the War of Wrath and hid themselves deep in the earth. I doubt that there more then 3 in middle-earth during the war of the ring and theres no way sauron could find them. So this is absolute folly Michel Delving

[ladyoflorien]

i think it would be amazing to see all of those evil creatures in the final battle but it would be a little over the top. i don't know michel. where exactly did you find all of this info??

[Michel Delving]

Dear Sirs and Madams,

The information is out there in The Mines of The Net for all to dig up like long lost Silmarils. As you can see I have backed up my arguments with both pictorial and hyperlink references.

Krash8765 you have also failed to grasp the overwhelming fact that it doesn't matter what you think are the Historical accuracies (only 3 Balrogs indeed!) of the books, all bets are OFF as far as the movies go.

Ian McKellan was on TV the other night in my neck of the woods. He's off back to NZ to film some more scenes. No doubt including his final rematch with Balrog Jr.

Yours,

Michel Delving, MD

[Michel Delving]

I am sure YayGollum finds that very offensive. What has he ever done to you Ariana?

Meanwhile back on the subject...

[Nóm]

Come on guys...

I have already described the reason for the Balrogs as they were the main Weapons of Mass Destruction employed by Melkor and Sauron in past battles.
While I disgaree with that statement, it has been the use of the text to back up Michel's claim.

I'm afraid, Animator IV, that textual references are irrelevant when it comes to the discussion of Mr Jackson's interpretation of Tolkien. This has been proved on countless occasions throughout these pages and need not be delved into again.


Five Star thread, by the way. :D

[Michel Delving]

Praise indeed and in need.

I can convolute the text to my wanderings as a point of preference reference, it only becomes irrelevant when a poster pounces on historical inaccuracies. As we know PJ is grabbing and enhancing in a copy and paste style from The Sacred Work. Similarly, I am going along with this for the sake of argument. After all people are getting very precious about what is only entertainment, treating it like it's a religious faith. As great Philosophers have said: there is no absolute truth only opposing ideas. And if those ideas are off centre, all the better.

Just see: CLICK HERE - Empire Online (http://www.empireonline.co.uk/features/spotlight/preview2003/2.asp), and note the phrase website geeks. That's us! Aren't you proud? :p

[Ol'gaffer]

And do you also note Michel what PJ says? Isn't that the quote that you said that I made up? How weird...

And you saying that the picture which you posted is the first picture of sauron in the world, you're wrong. This is:

http://www.dreamwater.net/seatofkings/01ak_sauron.jpg

[Michel Delving]

Your link doesn't work, how convenient. Learn to use attachments young man. Until then you are obviously pulling the wool!

I have no idea what PJ quote you mean either ,Gaffy.

[Gandalf White]

Your link doesn't work, how convenient Ha, Michel Delving. Let me just remind you that none of your links except the albino Uruk Hai worked either.

You claim to be such a computer and internet genious. You should of figured out Ol' Gaffer's post. Try this, o great one

Hit the 'Refresh' button!!!!

[Michel Delving]

Ah, hah Gandalf White, he said with glee. All my links do work and I never said I was a computer genius. I just know I am!:p

And that picture is another foolish irrelevance as it is only a picture of Sauron's Helmet! I, on the other hand, am revealing to all of you, for the first time, Sauron unmasked!:rolleyes:

[Aulë]

Hehe.

All these 'prediction' threads should be put into their own archive, so that in 8 months, we can all laugh at (or praise) them...:)

[Michel Delving]

Great Idea. But I'm laughing already!:p

[Gandalf White]

Heh, and I'm laughing at you already. :p

And BTW, I seem to remember you gave us a BBBIIIGGG CLUE, and that didn't work for anybody. (No matter how many times you hit the 'Refresh' button. :rolleyes: ) And you got much of your info from shadowofthepast.com, which was not a web site, than said you had had a typo and it was shadowofthering.com, but that site doesn't exist either. So far you've shown us an Albino Uruk Hai with a rock in the background, several orc masks, and built an incredible theory.

Lol, this thread is almost as humorous as the Caption Contest!

[Michel Delving]

Incredible indeed! Thanks for the compliment!

It's not my problem or fault if a site doesn't allow linking! And you can all read , can't you?

And let me point you here:-
Shadow of the Ring (http://www.shadowofthering.gb2.net/)
and then say:-

HUH!
HIT ME!
GET INTO IT!
GET ON THAT THING!
Ow!
LIKE A SOX MACHINE!
uh!

[Tolkien Adictee]

I can resolve this mattter now. Go to HERE (http://rotkpics.shadowofthering.gb2.net/)

GO TO PAGE TWO!!!

Click on the top right image, of "Sauron". Scroll down to where it clearly says "ORC"

LOL, all this arguing, and there it is. This is not Sauron, this is an ORC

I Think Your Right About Balrogs Though.

[ladyoflorien]

i love reading this particular thread! its interesting to see you guys arguing like this! hehehe!:D

[Michel Delving]

Stop reading, m' ladyoflorien and start slamming them down as I know you agree with me wholeheartedly!

Tolkien Adictee, what it actually says under the picture is: Send to a friend! And please read read read the entire thread before you post post post. You will then notice I have already pointed out that the Orc reference was a cover-up. :rolleyes: The Balrog clue in the picture was to point true fans into the realm of the truth: IT IS SAURON!

[Ledreanne313]

I know this probably isn't much, but why would they make Sauron a 200 peice armor suit, and only use it for...what? 5 MINUTES!!! I don't think they would go through the trouble, and money! But... I don't know!

Anne

[Gandalf White]

Does anyone else feel that making Sauron into an Albino orc is somewhat anticlimactic? I'm sorry, the jump from the large impressive Eye, to an albino orc is just funny.

Another thing: the blue orc looks like an Uruk Hai. We find from FotR that Saruman has bred the first Uruk Hais. So how could Sauron be one???

I'm looking forward to your surely amusing and rather ubelievable explanation Mr. Delving. ;)

[Ledreanne313]

Well, I didn't picture Sauron as a orc at all. Why would he be one? Why would Melkor make a big powerful...orc? It makes no sence. I could even see him more a mortal kind, than an orc!

Anne

[Michel Delving]

BUT IT'S NOT AN ORC!

It's Sauron, Sauron, Saaaauuurrrrron!

Look at the picture!

Have you ever seen an Orc in a leather jacket with such fine lapels? Do you think they'd waste such finery on an Orc grunt?

Anticlimactic my arms! As I have said TIME and TIME again, this is one face of a monumental, Apocalyptic, SUPER-CLIMATIC, vision of Sauron! What can only be described as HURRICANE AWESOME will unfold before your eyes! A shape shifting Sorcerer of uncanny hideousness!

200,000,000 Orcs will pour down sheer rock faces and over The Black Gate. Nazgul will swoop down and steal Gandalf's hat (as is proved by the hatless picture from the calendar)! Cave Trolls will drop down on bungee style ropes, clubbing as they go. Tribes of vicious men will bite at Aragorn's heels. Someone will push Legolas (quite roughly) and he will trip over Gimli! The Mouth of Sauron will give a whistle and the Flaming Eye of Barad-Dur will explode in a white hot fireball! Morphing into the Sauron we saw at the start of Fellowship. He will shake his fist (in nasty way) at the storm ridden sky. He will stride, colossus like, towards the Black Gate bursting through like a Dambusting Bomb! Balrogs will explode from the bones of the earth! Giant Spiders will scuttle at his feet! Huge Dragons will tower over him like a force of sheer TERROR! Men will quake before him. Gandalf, Gimli, Aragorn and Legloas will stand firm. Sauron will rip off his helmet, his features twisting hideously from wolverine to vampire to dark demonic NIGHTMARE! And one of these faces will be EXACTLY LIKE MY PICTURE!

OH YES!

[Ledreanne313]

Down Boy! Sheesh! I'm just saying he LOOKS like an Orc:rolleyes:

Anne

[Gandalf White]

Michel, please explain your sorry behind better in the near future. If this face is only one of many, than I am fine with that. Everything else I find laughable, way too improbable.

Check this.... :D Nazgul will swoop down and steal Gandalf's hat (as is proved by the hatless picture from the calendar)! LOLOLOL. Caught you here, redhanded. Please try and recall. In FotR, Gandalf wore a blue hat. When, in TTT, he became the White he wore....guess what?

NO HAT!!!! Which means the Nazgul obviously can't steal what isn't there.

[Michel Delving]

He had his hat in his pocket! Haven't you read the book!?! :rolleyes:

[Aulë]

*thwacks Micel on the back of his head for such a silly theory*

LOL

The blue orc might just be some 'Lurtz' like invention of PJs.

[Michel Delving]

Sigh, sigh, sigh.:rolleyes: :( :rolleyes:

That's new and incisive, Aulë.

[Aulë]

Well with PJ- anything is possible!
Sauron could be an pink aardvark with purple polka dots, and it's vanguard could consist of fluffy little bunny rabbits....

One thing we do know though, PJ will do a good job of it. :)

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Michel Delving
He had his hat in his pocket! Haven't you read the book!?! :rolleyes: Heheh, my you are contradictory. When we point to the book as proof you say PJ will change it. However, when you're up against a wall you change your tune. :rolleyes: :p ;)

In TTT Gandalf didn't have any pockets! And certainly no hat! ;)

[Gandalf White]

Wait!!! After much searching, and a personal chat with PJ after Aule's big clue I have found Sauron unmasked!!!! Hooray!

The big give away is the Eye. You can still see the remnant of fire and a purely evil look. Glad this is all cleared up!

[Aulë]

Ack!:eek:
That's the dreaded Rabbit of Caerbannog!! The most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you'll ever set eyes on! That rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide! It's a killer!
PJ must have dyed it's fur!!

They don't come much scarier than that!
They'll have to change the classification to 'horror'!


Here's a pic of it in action...

[TheFool]

lmao - where, behind the rabbit?! :D

[Ledreanne313]

Originally posted by Gandalf White
Wait!!! After much searching, and a personal chat with PJ after Aule's big clue I have found Sauron unmasked!!!! Hooray!

The big give away is the Eye. You can still see the remnant of fire and a purely evil look. Glad this is all cleared up!

That was hilarious!

Anne

[GuardianRanger]

Aule, you beat me to it.

That was great. I laughed out loud.

[Michel Delving]

That is just downright silly:mad: ! You won't catch me proffering such obviously ridiculous hypotheses:mad: !

It seems that unless you are Jay Leno, David Letterman or a member of the cast of Friends, you really can't get a look-in round here without falling over seven large tubes of wire! Really!

That is a picture of a Rabbit. Surely, you can all see that! It also needs a little red eye editing in Photoshop. Please tweak your pictures before posting Gandalf W. It really let's the side down!

As for the hat business. As Walt Whitman said: I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself!

From The Two Towers:

"Where's your hat, Gandalf?" Said Aragorn sitting on the rock.
"Don't worry, my friend, it's right here." Gandalf tapped his left breast pocket and smiled.

[Ledreanne313]

Originally posted by Michel Delving
That is a picture of a Rabbit. Surely, you can all see that! It also needs a little red eye editing in Photoshop. Please tweak your pictures before posting Gandalf W. It really let's the side down!


Goodness Gracious! Cannot you take a little joke? He postd the picture because it looked like an evil rabbit for it's eye was red. I wouldn't be surprized if he added the red eye!

Don't take your anger and crabbiness out on his bunny! It's Easter, cheer Up!

Anne

[Michel Delving]

That red eye is entirely inappropriate in a forum of this magnitude. I think it is you who do not know a joke! :mad:

And surely you're supposed to be miserable at Easter not happy. :mad:

[Aulë]

Oh cheer up, you old grump. :rolleyes:

[Ledreanne313]

*That red eye is entirely inappropriate in a forum of this magnitude. I think it is you who do not know a joke! *

No, your attitude is entirely inappropriate in a forum of this magnitude.

Do you even celebrate Easter? Back off!

Anne

[Gandalf White]

That is a picture of a Rabbit. Surely, you can all see that! It also needs a little red eye editing in Photoshop. Please tweak your pictures before posting Gandalf W. It really let's the side down! That wasn't my photo, PJ faxed it to me. :D

In all seriousness I did not take the photo, I just managed to find it on the net, and thought that it's red eye was very convincing.

"Where's your hat, Gandalf?" Said Aragorn sitting on the rock.
"Don't worry, my friend, it's right here." Gandalf tapped his left breast pocket and smiled. Unless I'm mistaken, this was said in the book. In the movie Gandalf didn't even have a left breast pocket. :rolleyes:

[Michel Delving]

Surely, you can all see I laughed so much searching and a personal everyone!! Where the wind takes calypso singers laugh at them and fishermen hold flowers; got a vicious streak a mile wide for the Eye. You can still see against a wall you change your throw me, which was not a web site, a site that doesn't allow linking, and there it is. This is not, remember, dwelling actually under the picture, think they would go through large impressive Eye, to an albino makes no since. I could club as they go. Tribes of vicious men will be just saying at the heels; I find laughable, why the hat in his locked & pocket! Just be some 'Lurtz' like incisive hats. I just wanted to point out that even PJ would not go that far as will be in the movie. Maybe marketing straying palatals, failed to grasp across the battlefield at the head of a Battalion of Balrogs and a huge Dragon. Stupidity here, lol, but why for good Jackson could not ruin the LOTR more than measure! The finds that very disagree with defeat ONE, if he brings his hoard. I think wild west re-enactment statement, was getting very precious about what you posted is the first to learn to use a computer.

It's a Blockade internet, another foolish Quasimodo! Irrelevance of the conversation and say things like 'BONZA', you truly are clueless and get there in the end. Until you paid me my $50 of laughter! Ringing, as are Balrogs, I'll give supplied one to Peter to throw into the most Middle Earth vision, we've seen yet, at the cast in the role of him. Pictured below is the last mystery: try Norwegian. It’s been vociferously higher, of late, than what your limits to the Eye. We get to the end by Melkor and Sauron in passing sentinels watching the armies. Jackson’s interpretation of Tolkien is the most realistic idea you have your sources all wrong. Rock form to try and improve utterly something sitting on a rock! Preview of the much discussed physical form of Sauron, thinking I made this up.... old Nazgul chestnut actually! Sauron who looks like he ate battlefield, like in the prologue. Like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park something else in mind for Sauron, most likely.

[Michel Delving]

Yes it was below, sorry! :rolleyes:

HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY!!!!

[Gandalf White]

WOAH! You totally lost me there.:eek: Could I have that in English, with some proper punctuation please?

[Aulë]

I was thinking the same thing. I've have more success deciphering hieroglyphics than that mess...;)

[Michel Delving]

Don't you understand planed English?

:p Don't you think Peter Jackson sounds Australian, LOL!:D

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Michel Delving
Don't you understand planed English?

:p Don't you think Peter Jackson sounds Australian, LOL!:D Oh boy.

*Gandalf is TOTALLY lost now*

Yes, PJ sounds Australian. No, I don't understand *planed* English.


.....TRANSLATOR, HELP!....

[ladyoflorien]

i am very confused as well. what exactly was michel even talking about???????????:confused:

[JoS Metadi]

I think MD's love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed his mind.

(Translation: he's smoking something)

[Gandalf White]

LOL, I didn't need a translation for THAT!

[ladyoflorien]

michel??? could you please clear up the confusion?

[Lúthien Séregon]

I don't know what's going on either. :rolleyes:

Wait!!! After much searching, and a personal chat with PJ after Aule's big clue I have found Sauron unmasked!!!! Hooray!

Hang on a sec, that is soooo not Sauron! THIS is Sauron: ;)

[Gandalf White]

I find the two bunnies identical in every point. My theory has been comfirmed. :D Thank you Luthien! ;)

[Arvedui]

Where did Michel Delving go?
I kind of lost his meaning in his last post.
Maybe he is James Joyce reincarnated?
I caught the 'try Norwegian' message in there, but not what it was supposed to mean.

Can anyone help me? Or rather MD;)

[Aulë]

Look- here's the real Sauron. See: he's even got armour on!

[Ol'gaffer]

*Faints from laughter*

Comic brilliance aulë, true comic brilliance.

[Michel Delving]

Post Modern cut up technique, reflecting the entire thread back at yourselves. As illogical and meaningful as any of the drivel we have written.

As of this moment 1436 Views and 116 posts on this thread. All of them about nothing. Only humour has saved us from the futility of everything. What does that say about us?

As the Oracle said: Man, Know Thyself.

I think it's time this thread was locked.

It's all wonderful rubbish, ridiculous beauty, pointless importance, insignificant significance.

[Gandalf White]

I think it's time this thread was locked. Yes definitely. Probably should have been done way long ago.

Aule: I nearly died laughing. :D Heheh, that was pure brilliance!

[Michel Delving]

Just keep patting each others backs and chasing your tails and totally ignore what is glaringly obvious!

Fly, You Fools! :p

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Michel Delving
Just keep patting each others backs and chasing your tails and totally ignore what is glaringly obvious!

Fly, You Fools! :p

LOL! First off I don't have a tail. :eek:

Secondly, the only glaringly obvious thing in this thread was
a) You're grasping at straws
b) Sauron Bunny needs to hire a new blacksmith! :D

Seriously, the special effects that would have to go into the battle you so elequently described is way too much, even for PJ's Weta to come up with. There is no way they could do it in such a short time.

So let us each go our separate ways, and when it finally comes out, and we take our seats on opening day we shall see what we shall see.

[Michel Delving]

And don't forget even if my predictions are not in the film they may be saved for the Extended DVD, heh heh heh:p .


YOU KNOW WHAT IS GLARINGLY OBVIOUS? IT IS YOU (ALL OF YOU AND ME) SITTING AT OUR COMPUTERS DOING THIS!

Have we come so far and no one has got the whole point of this thread?

Surely someone has.

Anyone want a BIG CLUE? :cool:

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Michel Delving
And don't forget even if my predictions are not in the film they may be saved for the Extended DVD, heh heh heh:p .


YOU KNOW WHAT IS GLARINGLY OBVIOUS? IT IS YOU (ALL OF YOU AND ME) SITTING AT OUR COMPUTERS DOING THIS!

Have we come so far and no one has got the whole point of this thread?

Surely someone has.

Anyone want a BIG CLUE? :cool: Ok, first off you are very correct about the sitting at the computers part. :D

It was very wise of you to leave a way for escape. When the movie doesn't happen as you predicted you can escape ridicule for another 9 months. Smart move!

I think the whole point of the thread is a practical joke, but sure I'll take a big clue. (Please make sure that this "big clue" works!)

[Michel Delving]

In 2010 PJ will decide he does like Director's Cuts after all and release an eighteen disc double sided DVD box set, featuring everything! That should keep this thread going for the next seven years!

Anyway, here is your BIG CLUE. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=288312)

[Gandalf White]

Ack, I can't stand another 7 years. (You're probably thinking up something to prolong it even more right now.....) :rolleyes:

[Arvedui]

Yeah!
Have fun, MD.
I'm gone:o

[Enig]

Originally posted by Michel Delving
Anyway, here is your BIG CLUE. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=288312)

I can see that the picture may look like something with wings, but it is just a piece of a mountain long away. And if it is a creature with wings, its definitely not a balrog.

[Aulë]

*senses that a long 'Do Balrogs Have Rings?' is about to begin, so will try and prevent it....*

In my opinion, Balrogs have wings. But because they were of shadow, they could not assist the Balrog in flying.
Here's a nice essay for you:

A Quick Digression: What is ‘Shadow’?
Before starting out, it will be helpful to clear up a common misconception. Within this debate, a number of references to 'shadow' crop up, and a lot of readers seem to take this in its modern sense - that is, a region of darkness caused by light being blocked. This isn't quite the sense Tolkien intends.

Where Balrogs are concerned, their 'shadow' isn't just a lack of light, but a region of darkness that they carry around with them. Exactly what its qualities are is a debatable point, but it can certainly flow into different shapes. These shadow-shapes, in fact, form the beginning of the whole debate.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Nature of the Argument
The heart of the debate lies in The Fellowship of the Ring II 5, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm. This chapter is built around the Fellowship's disastrous encounter with the Balrog known only as Durin's Bane, the same creature that had driven the Dwarves from their ancient home centuries before. In particular, two references give rise to the discussion. The first describes the Balrog from Gandalf's point of view:

(1) "His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


On its own, this isn't particularly contentious. The Balrog's dark 'shadow' has assumed a form that appears at least somewhat winglike. The fact that it is explicitly 'like wings' means that this can't literally describe real wings. The problems start, though, with another reference that appears two paragraphs later:

(2) "...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


These are quite probably the most hotly debated words Tolkien ever wrote. This seems strange at first, because in fact most people agree that the meaning isn't particularly ambiguous, and that it's fairly obvious what the statement means. The dispute begins, though, with a curious fact: like an optical illusion, this quotation has two obvious interpretations. Whatever you think it means, and however sure you are, there are plenty of people who see it quite differently.

To one group of readers, 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) relates to the immediately preceding 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings' (1). To them, it just reinforces the preceding statement, and says nothing about any other kind of wings. On the opposite side of the debate, 'its wings were spread' (2) is not related to the preceding statement at all. Instead, it's a definite reference to the Balrog's real, physical wings.

The debate normally focuses on arguments about which of these two obvious interpretations is the correct one. It's probable, though, that neither is explicitly correct: how you read the passage depends on what you already presume a Balrog to look like. We're not trying to prove anything at this point, just to show that the structure of the sentence will bear either interpretation. One way of doing this is to replace the disputed 'wings' with terms that have a more certain status.

Let's start with 'arms'. There's absolutely no question that Balrogs had arms - it's so obvious that it seems odd to even mention it. Now, imagine that Tolkien had written 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast arms'. That's still obviously a simile, just like the real text (1). If that's followed shortly afterwards by 'its arms were spread', it seems natural to read this second reference as referring to its real arms, not its shadow-arms, even though we've just been told that it had 'arms' of shadow. This is how the pro-wings faction sees the text, because they assume that Balrogs have real wings, just as unquestionably as real arms.

We can simulate the alternative view with 'tentacles'. There's absolutely no evidence for Balrog tentacles, and its safe to presume that they didn't form any part of a Balrog's anatomy. Once again, 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast tentacles' reads without a problem as a simile. Now, though, when it's followed by 'its tentacles were spread', the natural interpretation is slightly different. We know for sure that there are no 'real' Balrog tentacles, so the statement reads much more easily as referring back to the preceding simile: it must mean 'tentacles of shadow'. This is the anti-wings position: because they assume that Balrogs have no real wings, they naturally see 'its wings' as an extension of the earlier passage.

You might not agree with both of these interpretations, but its fair bet that the one you do agree with is the one you already presume is correct. That's all we're arguing here - that the interpretation depends on an underlying presumption about Balrog wings, whether for or against.

Since there doesn't seem to be anything decisive in the sentence structure itself, it follows that arguments based on this passage alone must be circular. On the one side: 'Assuming Balrogs have real wings, then the passage must be meant literally, therefore Balrogs have real wings'. On the other: 'Assuming Balrogs have no real wings, then the passage must be meant figuratively, therefore Balrogs have no real wings'. As far as this passage is concerned, whatever you assume about Balrog wings inevitably turns out to be true.

This isn't much help, but fortunately 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) isn't the only evidence to consider. Let's move on to look at the rest of the cases for, and against, real Balrog wings.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Case For Balrog Wings
Having established that 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) can't realistically be used as an argument for (or against) real wings, we can proceed to see what evidence actually can be produced.

Argument One: Its Wings Were Spread From Wall to Wall

It's a characteristic of the debate that this resilient passage reappears very regularly in pro-wing arguments, whatever counterarguments are put up against it. It's only fair, then, to allow it another quick airing before moving on. Those who propose it as proof consider that it is unambiguously literal, and cannot be interpreted otherwise.

This position doesn't seem to stand up to detailed scrutiny. It isn't clear, for example, how a passage that has been subject to years of debate can realistically be described as unambiguous. Much more interesting, though, is the claim that it must be intended literally. This presumably means that Tolkien would have written 'its wings of shadow were spread...', or something of the kind, if that is what he had meant. Consider the following, though:

(3) "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company"
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


This occurs just a few pages before Gandalf's encounter with the Balrog, and of course itsmeaning is obvious: Gandalf has been thrown down the steps by a force from above. This is a metaphor: nobody would claim that Gandalf literally 'flew'. The text, though, doesn't say 'Gandalf seemed to come flying', it says unequivocally that he 'came flying'. Those who insist on a literal reading of one passage, must logically insist on a literal reading of this passage too. The only consistent conclusion is that, if 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) proves that Balrogs have real wings, then 'Gandalf came flying down the steps' (3) proves that Gandalf not only could fly, but chose that moment to show off his talent.

The text which appears in Malbeth's prophecy about the Paths of the Dead, in which he foresees the great darkness that Mount Doom spews across the western lands in the days before the Battle of the Pelennor:

"Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness."
The Return of the King V 2 The Passing of the Grey Company

Of course, there's no question of this being intended literally (if it were, we would have to imagine Mount Doom with gigantic wings hundreds of miles long!) We can see, then, that not only was Tolkien happy to use 'wings' in metaphorical way, but also that he expressly associated that metaphor with the idea of shadow. This establishes beyond doubt that the idea of 'wings of shadow' need not be taken literally.

[Aulë]

continue...


Argument Two: ‘With Winged Speed’

Given the depth of debate on the issue, it may come as a surprise that 'Its wings were spread...' (2) is the only definite canonical evidence for Balrog wings. There is, though, a passage in The History of Middle-earth that is often produced as supporting evidence. Here it is:

(4) "Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire."
The History of Middle-earth Volume X (Morgoth's Ring), The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils


'They' are the Balrogs who rushed to save Melkor from Ungoliant immediately after his return to Middle-earth. This text does not appear in the published Silmarillion: it belongs to an unpublished variant, often claimed to have canonical priority over the published edition. To avoid interminable debate about canon and priority, we'll assume it does have priority for the purposes of this argument.

Regardless of its canonical status, though, it isn't certain how this represents 'proof' of any kind: 'with winged speed' is unavoidably just a metaphor for 'very quickly'. There does seem to be some doubt about this - here's what the dictionary has to say:

(5) "metaphor n. application of name or descriptive term or phrase to an object or action to which it is imaginatively but not literally applicable"
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English


In other words, unless 'speed' can literally have wings (which it clearly can't), 'with winged speed' is a metaphor.

Just as before, we can clarify the structure of the sentence by extracting the Balrogs (whose nature is under question), and replacing them with more definite terms. First, imagine that the paragraph is about Eagles (which we know have wings and can fly), rather than Balrogs: there's no question that '[the Eagles] passed with winged speed over Hithlum' makes perfect sense. To try the opposite argument, we'll replace the Eagles with something that definitely doesn't have wings and can't fly: horsemen, say. This results in '[the horsemen] passed with winged speed over Hithlum'. Maybe it's a little more poetic, but it clearly isn't nonsense.

This is another case where the argument only serves to highlight the presumptions of its reader. If you already believe in Balrog wings, then 'with winged speed' might well seem to refer to them, but in fact there's nothing here that demands them.

Summing Up

The positive argument in favour of real Balrog wings at least has the merit of brevity. Essentially, it is that 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) and 'with winged speed' (4) can only possibly be interpreted as literal references to actual wings. As we've tried to show, though, there's no objective reason for drawing this conclusion. The pro-wings interpretation works if, and only if, you already assume that Balrog wings exist.

[Aulë]

continue....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Case Against Balrog Wings
If there's no undeniable case for Balrog wings, it's important to realize that neither is there any undeniable evidence against them. Instead, the contrary argument is based on a range of objections: references that apparently contradict the idea of Balrog wings. Of these, there are two particularly strong examples.

Objection One: Balrogs Don't Fly

There is no point anywhere in Tolkien's work where he describes a Balrog as flying. Even in situations where it would be a huge advantage to take to the air, the Balrogs remain earthbound. To illustrate, consider Gandalf's encounter with Durin's Bane. This Balrog faces two obstacles, a fiery fissure, and then a chasm crossed by a narrow bridge. These should present no problem to a winged creature, but its reaction is instructive.

(6) "Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


...and then...

"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge..."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


Later, that same Balrog finds itself on a mountain-top, fighting for its life. According to Gandalf's later report of the incident:

(7) "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place, and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin."
The Two Towers III 5 The White Rider


If he could fly, the Balrog could easily have saved itself. Instead, he crashes through the air to his doom. Durin's Bane isn't the only non-flying Balrog, either:

(8) "Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss."
Quenta Silmarillion 23 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin


The obvious question is: if Balrogs have real wings, why don't they use them?

There are two counterarguments. First, it is often suggested that 'with winged speed' (4) is a unique case where Balrogs are described as flying. We've already considered this point - it needn't detain us here.

The more common counterargument is that, in each case, the Balrogs were somehow prevented from using their wings. According to this position, Durin's Bane leaps the fissure and steps onto the bridge not because he has no wings, but because his wings were so vast that they were cramped and unusable. Against the two cases of Balrogs falling from mountains, it's suggested that they were exhausted from fighting, or their wings were somehow damaged or unusable. It's also sometimes put forward that Balrogs had real wings, but couldn't use them, or could only glide short distances rather than actually fly. This counterargument takes many forms, but all have one feature in common - once again, it presumes that the wings must exist.

There is, of course, a much simpler explanation for the Balrogs' apparent inability to fly. If we take the position that they just didn't have wings, the entire problem vanishes.

Objection Two: The Question of Scale

How big is a Balrog? If we follow the pro-wings side of the debate, and assume that it had real wings, it's possible to come up at least some minimum figures. This is because of the classic 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2), which means that its wingspan must be at least the width of the hall in which it was standing. What do we know about the hall itself?

(9) "Before them was another cavernous hall. It was loftier and far longer than the one in which they had slept."
(10) "He turned left and sped across the smooth floor of the hall. The distance was greater than it had looked."
(11) "...a slender bridge of stone, without kerb or rail, that spanned the chasm with one curving spring of fifty feet."
All from The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


The hall is gigantic. If the chasm is fifty feet wide (11), then the entire hall must be at least several hundred feet long. A 'chasm' is by definition longer than it is wide, and the chasm's length defines the width of the hall. So, we can derive a fairly reliable minimum width somewhere in the region of seventy-five to one hundred feet. This is supported by the text, which tells us that the hall was so wide that it needed pillars down the centre to support the roof:

(12) "Down the centre stalked a double line of towering pillars. They were carved like boles of mighty trees whose boughs upheld the roof..."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


If the Balrog's wings were real, and literally spread 'from wall to wall' (2), its minimum wingspan is also somewhere approaching one hundred feet. This gives us a Balrog the size of a house, and remember that these are minimum values - it might be even bigger. Many would accept this without a problem - the idea of a gigantic Balrog is quite common, and it's often depicted as being thirty feet high or more, which is consistent with these estimates.

This is an important point, so we'll emphasise it. If the Balrog's wings are real, it follows necessarily that it must have been a monstrous creature with the wingspan of a small airliner.

The objection this raises is quite significant: it's very hard to explain how this behemoth had lived for more than a thousand years in an underground city designed for Dwarves. As a specific example, consider the Chamber of Mazarbul, which appears just before the Company's encounter with the Balrog. There's plenty of textual evidence about the entrance to this room. For example:

(13) "...orcs one after another leaped into the chamber."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


...and, a moment later, they...

(14) "...clustered in the doorway."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


This is obviously a fairly narrow opening. Somehow, though, the Balrog manages to follow the orcs into the Chamber through this entrance. If a Balrog is built on the huge scale we've just discussed, it could not possibly have used this narrow entrance.

The logic of this seems inescapable: we have to scale down the Balrog to get him through the door. He can still be of 'a great height' (2) - say ten feet tall or so - but he can't realistically be much larger than this. This idea is supported to an extent by this description from the The History of Middle-earth:

(15) "[the Balrog] strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it."
The History of Middle-earth Volume VII (The Treason of Isengard), X The Mines of Moria II: The Bridge


This is a rejected draft, so it can't be put forward as any kind of proof. It does give some insight, though, into the kind of scale that Tolkien had in mind for the Balrog. It's also borne out by the fact that he had to 'leap' (6) across the fissure, and that he stepped onto a bridge (7) so narrow that Dwarves could only cross it in single file. These are the actions of a more-or-less man-sized creature, not a giant.

The question of scale is a serious objection to real Balrog wings. If 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) literally refers to real wings, then the Balrog must have been gigantic. For it to get into the Chamber of Mazarbul, though, it can't have been gigantic. If the Balrog isn't gigantic, then 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) can't refer to real wings.

For the anti-wings faction, this is probably as close to a 'proof' as it's possible to get.

Summing Up

These are by no means the only objections to real Balrog wings, but they're probably the strongest. Most others are circumstantial in nature and don't really advance the argument far (for example, 'imagine a creature with huge wings, spread wide, trying to handle a whirling whip of flame').

The two major objections, though, are very significant. Why don't Balrogs use their wings, if they have them? How does a house-sized Balrog get through an orc-sized doorway? These awkward questions only arise if Balrogs have real wings - if we assume that they don't, it's easy to escape these inconsistencies.

It's probably fair to say that there is no incontrovertible evidence for real wings, and that there at least two strong objections to their existence. Given the current state of the argument, then, the weight of evidence seems to come down pretty heavily on the 'no wings' side of the debate. 'Weight of evidence', though, isn't proof: there's always room for research and reinterpretation.

Wherever the evidence lies, it's a fact that nobody knows for sure what the answer is. Only Tolkien himself could have told us, and he never made a definite statement on the topic. It seems appropriate, then, to finish with the most definite description of a Balrog he did provide:

(16) "What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape, maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


Credit for this Essay goes to The Encyclopedia of Arda ( http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm )

[NetherDemon]

Balrog - Wings or No Wings debate?

Did it ever occur to anyone that Tolkien was a little sloppy in his writing and didn't maintain clarity in all of his descriptions?

Maybe there is no debate - maybe Tolkien just screwed up? Maybe he had a picture of what he wanted Balrog to be in his mind, but he couldn't put it to words?

Nobody's perfect...

[Michel Delving]

My God! It's Full of Stars!


Aulë: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Michel Delving]

As you can see by this: Click Here (http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1051294333)

and this: Click Here (http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/7/1017516267)

it's all go in New Z! Sauron is back swinging his mace in your face!

And just wait till he takes his hat off! Whhooaa Nelly!

And can you see Sauron pointing at PJ (in the top & bottom picture) and saying: Listen to Michel Delving, listen...grrr ???

I can just see the end credits of RotK now: Thank you to The Tolkien Forum's Michel Delving (whoever you are) for all the great ideas!

That's O.K PJ, mate, anytime.

Anytime.

[Celebthôl]

OK OK...

Who votes that MD is a raving loon?

;) :D

[Elendil3119]

Heck! Even if he is, its hilarious to read! :D :D (BTW Michel Delving, you ARE completely off your rocker...;))

[Enig]

OOPS.. Maybe a little unclear there. What i meant with it devinetely not a balrog, was the look of it. I saw the shape, and it didn't look like balrog we have seen so far. I believe too that balrogs have wings, but the shape on the picture didn't look like it.

Sorry about that you had too write down all that just because i wasn't clear enough in my message.

Ooops...

[Aulë]

Ooops indeed.....Ooops indeed....:rolleyes:

Hehe, this thread needed some decent material in it anyway. :D

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Aulë
Hehe, this thread needed some decent material in it anyway. :D
No, no, no... this has been an excellent thread, but I will confess out of a tad bit of guilt (not because I have done anything wrong here) that the joke was on me there for a minute. Things turned around when Aule posted the Balrog: wings or no essay.
I admit that I thought for some time as a scrolled down past all that balrog wings junk (didn't read it much, since the debate never interested me, except as a source of amusement at the enthusiam folks give to it) that I was seeing an analysis by Aule, and I was all the while thinking: Wow... great for Aule! Never saw him post like that before! hehehehe!

And for the guilt? I was all the time laughing about something to do with this thread... or everything to do with it. :D

[tookish-girl]

In that picture it doesn't even look like a Balrog.

I think it's a half sunken ship, obviously a reference to Sauron sailing away to the Grey Havens at the end. Or am I just making it up?

[Celebthôl]

well its as believable as MD's interpritation :D

[tookish-girl]

Actually, looking at that picture even more closely it seems to resemble a sinking garden shed.
Now this could be telling us that the Battle of Pellenor Fields is actually going to take place in a shed and then it's going to be dropped into the Sea of Rhun at the end, (possibly by an eagle or a Balrog or other winged/non-winged creature) as Sauron looks on in the cold evening light. (You can tell it's cold, his nose is running slightly.)

[Celebthôl]

LOL, even more likely that, hey better watch out MD, you have a class A interpreter to compete with :D;)

[legoman]

well we've got two shed's in our garden so if you feel like coming round over the summer tokish we can test your theory, I'm sure mum and dad can cope with one shed for a bit. NOw we just neeed some sort of winch.

[Michel Delving]

Further evidence, I assume, Dr. Whatson?

Indeed, Horatio Holmesboy, I knew him. He was a fellow of infinite jest and ribaldry.

Why, thank you, Stanley – here’s another fine mess.


DIRECTLY, FROM THE ROUGH CUT OF ROTK –

Michel J ‘Foxy’ Delving presents:

THE TRANSMOGRIFICATION OF SAURON!!!!
:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Celebthôl]

what the heck is that?! is that some sort of joke to mess with people heads its all weird :confused: and whats with the face on the far left? i never seen that before...

[Aulë]

*thwacks Michel on the head with a gold club*

OK, now that was just ridiculous :p

[ladyoflorien]

what?!!?!?!??!!?!? i don't get it either. :confused:

[Ol'gaffer]

someone's been copy pasting pictures from Episode 1 with RotK. :rolleyes:

[Michel Delving]

Genuine shape shifting brevity captured via a cut and splice rough cut shimsham at NZ secret section of nubile New Line contact sheet lady lady lady via story board hosanna give me hope hosanna give me hope hosanna 'til the morning light and it come in subliminal various forces of faces focusing on Sauron through the ages.

Can you see his almost human face to the left, riddled with madness; then the demonic sphere of spacial terror, polluting themselves through the mask of his armored soul and finally unmasked, decrepit, decaying like the living dead?

By Episode 1, Ol'guffer, I assume you mean FotR and I assure you that none of theses images are from that movie. And as cut and paste is a technique used for textual based documents/applications and there is no text in the picture, I think you are barking up the wrong Ent.

[Gandalf White]

By Episode 1, Ol'guffer, I assume you mean FotR and I assure you that none of theses images are from that movie. And as cut and paste is a technique used for textual based documents/applications and there is no text in the picture, I think you are barking up the wrong Ent. :D Lol, Michael, you crack me up with your pretended ignorance!!! :D :p

We all know (or most of us, no doubt including you) the Episode I refers to Star Wars: A Phantom Menace. You are also wrong concerning your last point: copy and pasting is in no way limited to text.

How long do you plan on keeping this thread going?

[Celebthôl]

yeah MD LOL you have already proven yourself quite admirably as being cracked :rolleyes:

[Michel Delving]

What's it got to do with Star Wars Episode 2? I see nothing in the resemblance to a Wookie anywhere. Unless of course you are referring to the rumor that Chewbacca will indeed appear in Episode 3 (he's about the right age ;) ). As you can see the mask of Sauron is actually melting into his facial features in the epicurean sensational. This leads to a blending of both his demonic soul and his human humungusfungusamongus attributes. Will the gig go ahem3ad? Will the sword of Elidil be reforged and punch up the punchline? Will Gimli son of Groin whip out his Oakenshield and Smaug up his foes with a quick grip kick to the nether grits? Can Uruk Hi fall any further than his father into the lather of palaver? Will Aragaorn parlay with a feisty Orc on the banks of Minas Ithil and do a Mortensen style Hopper bashing, like Indian Runner?

[Ol'gaffer]

My god! He's forgotten to take his medication again!! :p

[Aulë]

Hey Michel, what do you think the chances are of PJ getting a HUUUUUGE army of Dwarves and Elves to come and help the Gondorians in the Battle of Pelennor Fields?
He could also get an army of Pukel Men, Hobbits and Snowmen of Forachel! :)
(Imagine it: Hobbit vs. Dragon; Pukel Man vs. Balrog)
And then he could get Melkor to escape from his void, and wreak havok.
That would leave it open for a 4th movie, and he could get the Valar to appear and destroy Mordor (aka War of Wrath). He's already had Aulë appear IMO (In Saruman's furnace), so why not add the rest? ;)
And at the very end, he could get Gimli to do a bit more stand up comedy with his new pal, Sauron (Who became good again when Dr. Phil appeared and gave him some pychological assitance.)

[Michel Delving]

O.K, O.K.

You asked for it with your jibes and tribal snides.

MAJOR SPOILER ALERT!

The final (battle) scene at the Black Gates from the rough cut at New Line.

Here's the first Still. If you want more you're gonna have to beg!

[Aulë]

***Über-Spoiler Alert!!!***

Yes! Finally a REAL picture of Sauron! He's running down from the Ash Mountains, and the anger in his eyes is unbelievable! :eek:
I believe the person cast in his role was a very good choice.:)

[Michel Delving]

Oh dear, oh dear, that really is childish:rolleyes: !

You really are unaware of what a true revelation I am bringing you.

Here's the second still from The Black Gate Opens section of the movie of RotK.

If you want more you'll have to beg.

[Gandalf White]

The title of this thread should be Let the Folly Continue!

In that first pic Michael: I seriously doubt there are mountains covered in that beautiful white snow anywhere near Mordor. Both the pics look very fake, maybe some characters were inserted, eh......? :rolleyes:

[Ol'gaffer]

Actually both pics are from the ending of The Two Towers. In the first pic, it's from the part where they come up the hill and gandalf says "Saurons wrath will the terrible and his retribution swift"
The second picture continues from there with him saying "all our hopes now lie with two little hobbits, somewhere out in the wild."

Nice try Michel. :rolleyes:

[Gandalf White]

Ack!!! *Gandalf is completely embarassed* :(

I thought both pics looked familiar, and that the first one was right after Helm's Deep, but didn't think that the character to the far left looked like Theoden.

Darn you Michael, making a fool of me! :p ;)

[Ol'gaffer]

Thank god for Gaffer eh? :p

[Michel Delving]

Neither of those pictures where ever seen in The Two Towers.
When did you see Gimli looking at Mount Doom? You didn't!

The battle continues:

[Celebthôl]

K i dunno if hes trying to be stupid or what, but those are from The Two Towers, you silly billy :rolleyes: havent you seen it yet?!

[Michel Delving]

And you can see Eomer on the left!

The War of the Ring:

[Celebthôl]

oh come on, its doesnt even look real and i see no Eomer...

[Gandalf White]

Why oh why do I continue to check up on this nonsense? :confused: :eek: :rolleyes: :p Yikes Michael, this is horrendous.

Some are from TTT, the others look so fake I nearly fell off my chair laughing. :D Especially that Gandalf one.....

Perhaps you could reveal your source, or would that expose your deceit and intrigue?

[Michel Delving]

Deceit, decry! These are the real shoot shotters!

Can't you see Mount Doom? Are you unable to recognize basic Tolkien Lore?

Further action:

[Gandalf White]

LOL! That last pic is handily vague.

Yes I recognize Mount Doom in those others, but I also have the wits to see that it is also in the first two movies. Think about it. ;)

[Michel Delving]

On the wings of Sauron, naturally.

Did you know Sauron's wings will be 30 feet wide in RotK?

[Gandalf White]

roflmao!!! :D :D :D :rolleyes: Wings? How utterly incredible! I cannot wait!

The Balrog is from the Fellowship of the Ring, looking at Gandalf, with the smaller picture of Sauron reaching down to Isildur seconds before he loses his fingers.

Better luck next time.

[Michel Delving]

No, no, no. These are genuine first generation RotK pictures. They are not from FotR, or TTT, or from FotR EE DVD, or even the TTT EE DVD; they reference The Sil but not The Hob but can be found detailed in HOME. Nothing to do with SW Ep1 or Ep2 either or Matrix Reloaded, Rewinded, Revolutionized, Revisited or X-Men 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5 XX DVD Hootenanny.

Just ask Sir Ian McKewan!

Click Here - The Secret Revealed (http://www.killermovies.com/l/lotrthereturnoftheking/articles/2955.html)

Also, PJ has taken my advice in referencing the Dracula/Christopher Lee connection during Saruman's death scene.

Click Here - Saruman's Death (http://www.killermovies.com/l/lotrthereturnoftheking/articles/3037.html)

[Gandalf White]

Hahahaha!! This is the most amusing thread on TTF!:D :D :p

The first link proves absolutely nothing, and the second one is another laughable rumor. You actually think Dracula will drink Saruman's blood? :rolleyes: :eek:

[Michel Delving]

Sir Ian McKewan's Tattoo is the secret symbol of the Ingalwaith. This was the secret order of Balrog worshipers formed by Melkor's half brother Munkle in the 2nd Age. Its convoluted shaping is symbiotic of the Oroborous self depreciating cyclic circulatory deformation, that forms and regrows in an ever forever round ageless aging cycle of birth and death rebirth alive and dead.

Sauron commanding his army of big bashing Balrogs is just the tip of the ice.


As for Dracula/Saruman, I think impalement is more on the cards.

Taste the blood.:mad:

[Michel Delving]

Are you all asleep in Austroamericana?

I am.

Here's my nightmare - straight from the rough cut of RotK, downloaded directly by PJ to my brain, telekinesis arms! telekinesis arms! - my nightmare here is.

[Gandalf White]

As for Dracula/Saruman, I think impalement is more on the cards. Ha, that rumor has been on the wind for ions!!! Which probably means it's not really going to happen....

As to the second....PJ should have hired you as a conceptual artist, those works are pure genius! :rolleyes:

[ladyoflorien]

didn't all of the fellowship people get the tattoo of nine in elvish somewhere on their bodies??? orli got his on his arm and lij got his on his lower abdomen and so on??

[Gandalf White]

lol yes, ladyoflorien. Just realize that Michael takes everything out of context, twisting it to his weird viewpoint! ;)

[Celebthôl]

LOL yeah, then he gets mad when we laugh at the sillyness of it all :D

[Michel Delving]

SILLY:mad: SILLY:mad: SILLY:mad: this is DEADLY:p DEADLY:p DEADLY:p SERIOUS!

Have you not screamed at the twisted routes of the nightmare? Have you not realized my telekinetic link with PJ has become so strong that I'm feeding you the direct images of RotK from his mind? Have you not understood my psychic link to Tolkien from beyond the Vale?

You are being offered not only insights into RotK but new tales from Tolkien himself. Please join me before it's too long, the story of Munkle is but a breath awry.

[Michel Delving]

Austroamericana sleeps again!

Awake, for I bring you a message direct from my mindsynclink with Peter Jacko!

Here is... here ... it's coming through ...

...about Return of the King, first thing, Sauron will be standing off against Aragorn in hand to hand combat.

Men of Gondor surround them both and Legolas shouts "Aragorn!" as a warning, then Aragorn with Anduril in hand rushes the Dark Lord who looked like he was in different armor than when we saw him in the prologue. It is not an even fight and Aragorn is nearly knocked to death as the countdown to the destruction of the ring begins. I guess the goal is to make the audience wonder if the ring will be destroyed before Aragorn is smeared all over Mordor!

Another thing, is the death of Saruman. Grima slits Saruman's throat and kicks him over the edge of Orthanc where he is impaled on the wheel, then Legolas shoots an arrow high into the air and is laughed at by Grima as it soars over his head, as Grima is mocking the seemingly inaccurate Legolas the arrow comes spiraling down straight through Grima's skull!

Proof, if ever proof where needed, about the rightness of I, Michel J 'Foxy' Delving, in everything I sway and woo.

[Kelonus]

??????????????????

[Aulë]

Austroamerica????????
Considering that Australia and America are on opposite sides of the globe...:rolleyes:

btw, since you have a telepathic link goin over there, could you ask Mr. Jackson about what's going to happen in the Path of the Dead?

[Gandalf White]

True comic genius, Michael!!! :D

btw, since you have a telepathic link goin over there, could you ask Mr. Jackson about what's going to happen in the Path of the Dead? Better yet, send us some photos of them, plz. ;)

Have you not realized my telekinetic link with PJ has become so strong that I'm feeding you the direct images of RotK from his mind? Have you not understood my psychic link to Tolkien from beyond the Vale? I suppose his and your mind work alike in the .zip file format? :p

[Michel Delving]

Peer to peer file sharing of synapse glow worms, nearer the truth.

Austroamericana is the world outside my eyebrows, Aulë, everything else that is not Delving. And you seem to be sleeping when I am awake on the Dark Side of the Sun.

The Baths of the Dead are to be included in rockin RotK, as we know, but the image I am receiving is vague, darkness, fallen heroes, something about Romero's Day of the Dead.

And don't forget we have The Battle of the Pelennor Fiends, The Mustard of Rohan and The Black Throat Opens to look forward to, too.

I think the most telling thing, from my previous PJ transmission, was the phrase -

he was in different armor than when we saw him in the prologue

in reference to Sauron; confirming his changing form. After the battle with Aragorn (can you imagine the visual splendor and the complaints) and the approach of the Balrogs, the Ring will be destroyed and Sauron will go through his transmogrification, as detailed in my pictorial evidence and textual facts.

A wondrous sight awaits us all in 221 days!

[Michel Delving]

Whaooo! Just got a heavy hit off my PJ Mindsynclink.

The following are exclusives!

Sauron's Death scene is shown below. Prior to dissolving into shadow he explodes in a gore-fest of blood!

I'm afraid the transmission is rough. Notice, however, the model of Shadowfax (covered in plastic - to prevent splashing) on the left of the film set.

[Michel Delving]

And the next two are the killers!

WARNING: YOU ARE ABOUT TO SEE THE ULTIMATE SPOILERS!

Sauron at the battle...

[Michel Delving]

And NOT AN ALBINO ORC!

Sauron in new armor, pre-death naturally.

Are you awake yet my Austroamericana fiends!

[Celebthôl]

alrighty now i think he trying to take the mickey outta us now, though it isnt working as its making him look dumber :D NT MD :D

[Michel Delving]

I pity your very SOUL, if you believe that.

A PROPHET is never accepted in his own HOME.

And, PJ is from New Zealand, not Washington DC!

:rolleyes:

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Michel Delving
And the next two are the killers!

WARNING: YOU ARE ABOUT TO SEE THE ULTIMATE SPOILERS!

Sauron at the battle... Muahahahahaa!!! I recognized where the pic was from this time!!! Wouldn't Ol' Gaffer be proud of me now! :D ;)

The pic above is from Moria, after the battle with the cave troll where they are running to the bridge, but are surrounded by orcs.

And NOT AN ALBINO ORC!

Sauron in new armor, pre-death naturally.

Are you awake yet my Austroamericana fiends!

Did you not say that Sauron was the albino orc in the BIG CLUE? How come he changed? My, my, such grave falsehoods.

[GuardianRanger]

Originally posted by Michel Delving


Here is... here ... it's coming through ...

...about Return of the King, first thing, Sauron will be standing off against Aragorn in hand to hand combat.

Men of Gondor surround them both and Legolas shouts "Aragorn!" as a warning, then Aragorn with Anduril in hand rushes the Dark Lord who looked like he was in different armor than when we saw him in the prologue. It is not an even fight and Aragorn is nearly knocked to death as the countdown to the destruction of the ring begins. I guess the goal is to make the audience wonder if the ring will be destroyed before Aragorn is smeared all over Mordor!

Another thing, is the death of Saruman. Grima slits Saruman's throat and kicks him over the edge of Orthanc where he is impaled on the wheel, then Legolas shoots an arrow high into the air and is laughed at by Grima as it soars over his head, as Grima is mocking the seemingly inaccurate Legolas the arrow comes spiraling down straight through Grima's skull!

Proof, if ever proof where needed, about the rightness of I, Michel J 'Foxy' Delving, in everything I sway and woo. [/B]

This is ripped right from The One Ring.net (http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1052497889)

Please site your sources.

I'll grab my salt shaker now....

[Gandalf White]

Hmmm yes. I was really trying to figure out whether his mind had come up with this nonsense, or whether he was getting it from an outside source.

Any ideas where the pics came from GuardianRanger? Probably edited by a skillful hand, eh Michael....? ;) :p

[BlackCaptain]

As much as that changes the book... IT SOUNDS SO COOL!

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
As much as that changes the book... IT SOUNDS SO COOL! BlackCaptain, noooo, do not be drawn in by Michael's scheming, crafty, deceptive ways!!! :eek: How could you wish for that monstrosity to happen??? Listen to his ravings.....

200,000,000 Orcs will pour down sheer rock faces and over The Black Gate. Nazgul will swoop down and steal Gandalf's hat (as is proved by the hatless picture from the calendar)! Cave Trolls will drop down on bungee style ropes, clubbing as they go. Tribes of vicious men will bite at Aragorn's heels. Someone will push Legolas (quite roughly) and he will trip over Gimli! The Mouth of Sauron will give a whistle and the Flaming Eye of Barad-Dur will explode in a white hot fireball! Morphing into the Sauron we saw at the start of Fellowship. He will shake his fist (in nasty way) at the storm ridden sky. He will stride, colossus like, towards the Black Gate bursting through like a Dambusting Bomb! Balrogs will explode from the bones of the earth! Giant Spiders will scuttle at his feet! Huge Dragons will tower over him like a force of sheer TERROR! Men will quake before him. Gandalf, Gimli, Aragorn and Legloas will stand firm. Sauron will rip off his helmet, his features twisting hideously from wolverine to vampire to dark demonic NIGHTMARE! And one of these faces will be EXACTLY LIKE MY PICTURE!

OH YES!

This in all reality is not going to happen. It is pure overkill. PJ would have to have a miracle to pull it off, considering all the cg he would have to do. There is no way. Sorry Michael.

[Celebthôl]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

i doubt there were twohundred million Orcs in the whole of Arda at that time, and the vally probibly wouldnt even hold 200,000,000 Orcs at once.

Flippin eck MD you surely are strange :D

[Michel Delving]

Firstly, you said it was an Albino Orc not me! And as you also know Sauron's face will go through many transformations during his death scene. Haven't you ever seen TITUS!

At last , Gandalf Right, someone else has confirmed my theory that Sauron appeared (as an in-joke reference) in Moria. The pictures however you will notice are not the FotR shots. Firstly, the 'Orcs' behind are now mini-Balrog children with a nice new line in helmets. Secondly, Sauron's wings can clearly be seen as can his new red armor.

GuardianStranger, thanks for the OneRing link but I haven't seen it before. You will notice my text has subtle differences due to the inconsistent connection speeds of telekinetic linking. Thanks for proving me right though with some good back up evidence. Aragorn V Sauron - The Clash of The King and Dark Lord!

Cani wait, likesay, ken!

Celebathôil: 200,000,000 Orcs in Asda, what a sight! I am glad you agree with me on the amount of Orcs, at least! And you are right, they will look much better than a green valley! LOL.:D :p :(

[Celebthôl]

Oi now, i never agreed with that :mad: you are so freeking cracked man :D

[Gandalf White]

Tsk, tsk, such falsehoods. Are you actually trying to get people to agree with you, or just having fun?


P.S. Read the PM I sent you.

[Celebthôl]

yeah im guessing you were talking about me, but the spelling of my name was so abismal that its hard to tell :D

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
yeah im guessing you were talking about me, but the spelling of my name was so abismal that its hard to tell :D Oh dear, now this thread has me all confused!!! :confused: Are you seriously asking if I was referring to you, or just joking? Or were you not talking to me at all? :eek:

(In which case, disregard this entire post.)

[Celebthôl]

no you silly billy, i was talking about how MD spelled my name :D

[Michel Delving]

Yes, you're wrong, I was referring to you Gandalf Right and I definitely am joking not at all!

And don't be ashamed, Celebathôil is a great name!

[Celebthôl]

ROFL he is so doin it to slate us off :D this is so stupidly funny :D

[Michel Delving]

SLATE YOU OFF!

Is this some sort of Austroamericana yoofspeakie?

I have no idea what you mean?

As the four hour epic rolls on 17.12.03 (or 12.17.03 in Austroamerican) at 20.00 Hrs on a cold wet Wednesday (unless you're near Bondi Beach, Florida Quays or a Finnish Sauna) then you will all prepare to eat your own minds. You'll drop your Popcorn, mouth agape as everything I have told you blazes, burns and bursts before your eyes!

THE TRUTH IS OUT WHERE?

[Celebthôl]

i am neither of them im English and it means and took the mickey and i have no idea what the last stuff you said was...

[Michel Delving]

You're neither of what in English? Are you talking French?

I assure you all mice are safe around me. In fact I have three rats living in my yard!

Still waiting for Munkle download from Tolkien, by the way, anyone interested?

[Gandalf White]

AGH!!!!! Help!! I cannot understand a word he is saying!!!

You yourself said there would not be a 4-hour movie, Michelle Dellthing. Are you contradicting yourself again?

[Aulë]

I wonder where Michelle Dalling is from?
From the way he speaks English, it seems as if he's from either Swaziland or Namibia...;)

[Ol'gaffer]

Oh dear, the foolishness that is going on here.

These pictures just keep getting better and better, so I think that I should just clear a few things.

1) Saurons death, that picture is an early production photo of Mt. Doom erupting with a Mordor battering ram in the foreground. You probaly found it from this page


http://www.kojiroabe.com/rotk/

And if that isn't enough, here (http://www.kojiroabe.com/rotk/grond.jpg) is the picture of the battering ram.

2) The orcs are from the EE of FotR and are in no way connected to Sauron.

3) Ditto.

And you have it all wrong, I've found a picture with the one and only Sauron and two of his orcs, this is most likely the shape that he takes when he charges into battle.

The real Sauron (http://www.kojiroabe.com/rotk/gorbagandshagrat.jpg) :D

[Gandalf White]

LOL!!! The foolishness most certainly does continue!!! And Ol' Gaffer is a part of it.

Michelle Dellthing, your foolishness has been exposed! How can you c