Leaving for good

[Húrin Thalion]

All, this is enough, after what I have witnessed in the past days I have decided to totally and permanently abandon TTF. For your own sake, do the same thing and leave this forum. I will not here utter any harsh words, I just bid you to look at the matter carefully, the injustices, the lies, the punishment, the attacks and then the reinstating of Ciryaher as a moderator as if anything has happened. I suspect this forum to be very American racistic and will for that and other things completely leave.

Fare well.

Måns Wadensjö- 9/4-2003

[Inderjit S]

Ach. I thought this had been settled but evidently not...It's a shame to see Hurin leaving, as he was one of the best members here and will be sadly missed by all.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Arg! It is a shame to see you leaving Húrin. However, I can't say your choice isn't justified (EDIT: minus the racism . . . that makes no sense). May you fare well wherever your feet lead! Namarie!

[Parrot]

Originally posted by Húrin Thalion
I suspect this forum to be very American racistic and will for that and other things completely leave.

I am not totally clear what you mean by "American racistic" - is that pro or anti American? I would say there is quite a diversity of opinion here and that in my opinion it may weight slightly to the anti-American but I have a feeling this isn't what you are saying.

The biggest mistake Cir made, in my opinion, was allowing himself to be provoked by such a blatant provocateur, throwing around generalizations and not-so-sublte insults at every opportunity. I regret that he was not able to see that you were trolling for just the kind of response you got in order to make yourself out as just another hapless victim of the big, bad Americans. However, that being said, I personally missed your England/America statement that sparked all of this or all bets would have been off and I would have double-barreled you then and there saving Cir the trouble.

You invited angry responses repeatedly and then you play the victim when someone finally took you up - [Comment removed by Nóm] - if you're looking for sympathy it's in the dictionary between (edited for Elgee ;)) and syphilis.

I assume this is my last post. Later All.

[Maeglin]

I have a farewell Tolkien quote for Hurin. "It's a dangerous business, going out your door, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no telling where you might be swept off to."~Bilbo Baggins
Farewell Hurin, wherever you your feet bring you next.;) :)

[Ciryaher]

How is a forum comprised of members from around the world "American racistic"? Nobody on this forum (to my knowledge) has ever been permitted to express racist, sexist, or other expressions of hatred towards other religions, sexual orientations, etc.

In cases where it has happened, the offender was warned, and depending on their response, they were either let go with a warning and a promise to not do it again, or they were banned.

Hurin, I ask you to stay, humbly. I had thought that differences had been worked out, but if you wish to discuss it further, I will certainly and gladly do so. I cannot understand your feelings, and perhaps if I were to be given some insight from you, we would be able to work these sorts of things out.

[HLGStrider]

Want to edit your langauge for the sake of the sweet little highschooler with wide innocent eyes and cute kitty avatars?

I missed most of what happened, but from what I've read an arguement got out of hand. I've gone back and forth on the sides of this. For one thing I know very well neither Hurin or Cir like me. I disagree with just about everything Hurin stands for politically. I just didn't hit it off right with Cir.

I don't think what Cir did was bad enough to have him revoked. I don't think what Hurin said was bad enough to have him kicked off, but I do think it was disgraceful the way he kept bringing it up OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.

This is the second "I'm leaving" thread, for goodness sakes.

The American racism charge is ridiculous. I stopped going into the politics threads on a regular basis because I was sick of hearing America ranted about by some. It was getting ridiculous (Also because I don't have that many strong opinions on the war issue, which is what is mainly discussed.).

Let's take a quick look at the GOP. . .

Beorn has an apology on the behalf of all Americans for their discussions of the French.

Ardevi has a "War isn't worth it" style thread.

The Just War thread. . .which has at least one person within the first three posts against it. . . the other two are nuetral.

All the other threads are about the same. . .

What has Hurin been reading?

Unless he's just ticked off because Americans happen to have a very high majority on this thread (And not all of us enjoy having our country, its policies, or president talked bad of. . .for some of us its like hearing your mother insulted.).

Personally, I've never been offended by patriotism unless that patriotism involves bashing another country. . . which is normally mine. I expect citizens to love their country. I once saw two young men hitchhiking through my town with a suitcase that had the British flag on it (signifying where they were from). I thought that was really cool and I wasn't offended. A lot of people find my flag offensive.

That saddens me, but all right. Let them be offended, I guess. Still my flag.

This whole arguement is ridiculous. Hurin has said things that offended me. Cir has said things that offended me. I'm all right with that.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Húrin Thalion
All, this is enough, after what I have witnessed in the past days I have decided to totally and permanently abandon TTF. For your own sake, do the same thing and leave this forum......I suspect this forum to be very American racistic and will for that and other things completely leave.

Initially, you had a worthwhile cause and for that I was willing to support you. Sadly, I cannot condone your comments here as I feel you have sorely misjudged the sentiments of most of the membership. However, good luck for the future.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by HLGStrider

I don't think what Cir did was bad enough to have him revoked. I don't think what Hurin said was bad enough to have him kicked off, but I do think it was disgraceful the way he kept bringing it up OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.

This is the second "I'm leaving" thread, for goodness sakes.

The American racism charge is ridiculous. I stopped going into the politics threads on a regular basis because I was sick of hearing America ranted about by some. It was getting ridiculous (Also because I don't have that many strong opinions on the war issue, which is what is mainly discussed.).

Let's take a quick look at the GOP. . .

Beorn has an apology on the behalf of all Americans for their discussions of the French.

Ardevi has a "War isn't worth it" style thread.

The Just War thread. . .which has at least one person within the first three posts against it. . . the other two are nuetral.

All the other threads are about the same. . .

What has Hurin been reading?

Unless he's just ticked off because Americans happen to have a very high majority on this thread (And not all of us enjoy having our country, its policies, or president talked bad of. . .for some of us its like hearing your mother insulted.).

This whole arguement is ridiculous. Hurin has said things that offended me. Cir has said things that offended me. I'm all right with that.

WOOO YEAH!!! well said Elgee, im with that 100%!!! :) :cool:

But i also (after careful deliberation (sp)), believe that Cir should have recieved a certain ammont of warning points...but im not the Über mod nor am i WebMaster...oh well :rolleyes:

Thôl

[Húrin Thalion]

Initially, you had a worthwhile cause and for that I was willing to support you. Sadly, I cannot condone your comments here as I feel you have sorely misjudged the sentiments of most of the membership. However, good luck for the future.

I have no comment on the membership or the American people at all. What I meant is that among other thingas I feel banned and frozen out because I am a 'commie' and have expressed anti-American opinions. That is what I mean by racism. I have no comment on the membership as a whole, except for you all being a great bunch.

And as for you Ciryaher, this is no longer a business between only you and me, it quickly stopped being that, in fact. I am not leaving ONLY because of you but because of this series of events.

Måns

[legolasismine]

Well I didn't know you and I'm sorry I didn't, but I'm kinda sad your leaveing ,but obviously you wouldn't leave for anything silly so this must be serious for you to leave, I know because at one time I felt like leaveing because of someone else's rude remarks, but I hope you have a much better time on another tolkien like forum, so long.

~Addie~

[Ciryaher]

I assure you that you weren't banned because you are a 'commie', nor because of your Anti-American statements. I didn't want you banned in the first place, and I had hoped that your banned status would be removed quickly.

If the business is not between just you and I anymore, come to me and discuss it with me, and I will do my best to help amend the situation.

[Wonko The Sane]

I had a long talk with Cir about this last night, about people's attitudes, their culpability, their readiness to take offense, etc.

One thing we didn't talk about, but which seems to be coming up so frequently today, is this chronic, inflamed sensitivity to politics in regards to this war, and in regards to other people's opinions on it.

Hurin, while I do agree that you had reason to be offended in your original case I give you this to consider:

You stand by your beliefs strongly, defend them fiercly, and will not waver merely because somebody wishes to argue your position.
Neither will Cir. He is entitled to his opinion as much as you are entitled to yours.
This doesn't seem to be a problem. And I think you realise this to be true. I'm sure you understand the importance of respecting other people's opinions and both of you have learned the hard way that it is necessary to attack an idea, rather than a person.

Sadly enough, however, I am aware that the heightened sensitivity to Anti-American/Anti-OtherPointsofView comments has created a few problems.

Things are taken out of context and out of hand. People are insulted where they need not be. Many of you who support America, the war, and our president cry terrorist if one so much as disagrees with your points of view. Those who disagree cry racism and ethno-centrism when Americans defend their country and their standpoint.

It is all slightly hypocritical of you, and extremely unneccessary.

Americans: Realise that not all who disagree with you are terrorists oppressors of the free. It is indeed a form of oppression yourselves to not recognise the right of others to defend and speak their own positions, and indeed to attack them for doing so.

Those who disagree with the Americans: You are presenting your points of view just as the Americans are. When they defend themselves you cry racism. It is just as racist and ethnocentric of you to attack Americans and their supporters for defending their positions.

Attack ideas, but not people. Make sure that you recognise that we are all entitled to our own opinions, and it is plain WRONG to attack those who disagree with you when you cannot win your argument otherwise.

Recognise this: It will be near impossible for you to change others minds through arguing your points of view. So argue to your hearts content, but remember that: You cannot change them. So rather than attack them accept them. Even if you disagree realise that their right to their opinions is part of what is great about America, and indeed the world. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Rather than heightened senstivity to people's comments toward us which cause more conflict, we need heightened sensitivity to our comments to other people. This will lessen conflict.

Pro-War: Those against you are not all terrorist, they're not all evil. They're not all Al-Qaeda. They are people with opinions. People who deserve respect.

Anti-War: Those against you are not all racist, power-hungry Americans, they're not all evil. They are not all tyrannical opressors of freedom of speech. They are people with opinions. People who deserve respect.

Please...try to put aside your differences for just one moment, step back, look at it from the point of view I present here.

I'm not asking you to change your opinions, merely to recognise that there are people behind the words you hear and read. And they are not bad people. No matter how much you disagree with their words.

[Parrot]

Wonko speaks a lot of truth.

Beyond that, sometimes in this place I forget the age of some of the people and that was partly the case with my previous above.

While I stick by my feelings that Hurin was pretty much fishing for exactly what she(he?) got, I regret the 'you're pathetic' statement and offer apologies here and now.

[Kellivara]

I've only been partially following this, so I apologize here and now if I offend anyone in my ignorance

Hurin, I've been banned before as well, and I think that banning people is more of giving people time to cool off and think about everything before they continue with the disagreement. That way, instead of losing your head...(like I did)...you have a chance to compose yourself and consider what you're going to say, and things get solved much easier.

again, that's just my two sense, and I apologize if by my ignorance to the situation I've offended anyone........


and I also agree in part and in whole with Elgee, and especially with Wonko's statement.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Once again this topic has been brought up again for all of us members to see. If I may suggest, could this thread be closed? Also, for the future, if you have a problem and it is not affecting other members in TTF dont bring it up! Restrict it to PMs, Mods, and if needed the WM. There is no reason to bring all us into this, because everything that could be done was done for you Hurin. Since that was not enough for you, then you had every right to leave and you really should have.

Unfortunately, the sympathy is gone, and I and most others dont really care too much about your leaving anymore as you have truly milked it for ALL it was worth. So, someone please close these threads, I dont see how they can prove anything or any good that can come from them.

[Beorn]

Due to the fact that I know this will get out of hand, and that it is basically another attempt to lower TTF, this thread is closed.