Debate Inder vs Azog

[Maedhros]

Were the wise really that wise?
Consider the members of the White Council: Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Círdan, Elrond and Celeborn!

Since Azog was challenged, he will pick the side that he wants.

[Azog]

Before we start, I want to know why Indjerit asked me to debate him.

[Inderjit S]

Because in my aplication for C9, I felt that you had insulted me. Maybe you didn't mean to, or maybe I read to much into it, I don't know. Either way you're up.....

[Azog]

Affirmative.

I do not think that they were that wise.

(I will explain why in my next post)

[Khamul]

When is that next post coming along?

[Inderjit S]

I thought that Azog was making the opening post.....If he doesn't want to, then I will do so.

[Khamul]

I would just go ahead and post it. You have given him plenty of time.

[Inderjit S]

Were the wise really wise? Well, they are called the wise for a reason….

Looking at the ‘Wise fool’ (As Gandalf dubs him) Sauron’s take on Saruman and Gandalf:

‘His cynicism which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwe as precisely the same as his own seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had become evil, and therefore stupid enough to imagine his different behaviour was simply due to weaker intelligence’ HoME 12; Myths Transformed

So we can see that Gandalf, undoubtedly being the wiser out the pair (Hence the statement in the Valaquenta on Olorin being ‘Wisest of the Maia’) confused Sauron because of his wisdom in travelling around M-E rather then settling in one place like Saruman. Gandalf did this because he was the wiser person, and this effectively had a better effect then Saruman’s ‘retirement’ at Orthanc, as things like the Quest or Erebor show.

Let’s look at the Quest of the Ring. Gandalf’s decision to send the ring to Orodruin was undoubtedly of any of the courses mentioned. Sauron would not be excepting a Hobbit to walk into HIS land and destroy the ring. Destroying the ring was also the only effective way in which Sauron could’ve been destroyed. Sure you could chuck it in the sea, as one Elf suggests, but that really wouldn’t accomplish much, except delay the choice further. A less wise person, would’ve either taken arms against the Dark Lord, with the ring, or hidden it or thrown it into the sea. Either of them three would’ve failed. The Wise, effectively chose the only course that was possible, and undoubtedly someone of less wisdom would’ve chosen the seemingly easier plan, and failed.

We can see that the ‘wise’ were least effected by the ring. Boromir, is scornful of the Council and wishes to take the ring for himself. Yet the ‘wiser’ brother Faramir rejects the ring’s temptation. Need I ask which course was wiser?

Cirdan, renown for his wisdom, never judges the Noldor for the Kinslaying unlike most of the other Sindar. He is friendly with them, he takes Gil-Galad son of Fingon into Falas (let’s not go into the canonical value of that) , rescues Fingon when Hithlum is attacked not longer after the Bragollach and forms a Great friendship with Finrod. This can be seen as the ’wiser’ course, rather then Elwe’s strict anti-Noldorin policy, which led to many problems after. He was also unfazed by the rumours that Morgoth had been spreading about the Kinsalying to the Sindar:

‘ It was not long before whispered tales began to pass amongst the Sindar concerning the deeds of the Noldor ere they came to Beleriand….and Cirdan hearing these tales was troubled for he was wise Published Silmarillion; Of the Noldor in Beleriand


Look at the words FOR HE WAS WISE. So, he didn’t listen or spread the rumour’s like some less wise Sindar did.

HoME 12; Last Writings also tells us:

‘He is said to see further and deeper then anyone else in Middle-Earth…this does not included the Istari, but must include even Galadriel, Elrond and Celeborn….

This passage shows us two things. Firstly that Cirdan was, by the grace of the Valar the wisest person in M-E, and that the Three Other Elvish members of the council were the wisest in M-E as Tolkien says EVEN Galadriel, Elrond and Celeborn, implying that it was an achievement to be more foresighted then them.

Let’s compare Elrond’s actions to the impetuous Celebrimbor. Celebrimbor, the listening to Annatar-Sauron caused the second fall of the Noldor and his and his people’s deaths. Whereas if he had shunned him like Elrond and Gil-Galad did the ‘wiser’ decision then his and the Noldor’s fates wouldn’t be as tragic.

Or what about Galadriel and the much maligned Celeborn? As we can see from the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, the Finarfians, the wisest family of the Noldor were unsure the outcome of the war:

‘Aegnor has not trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband’

As we can see the wise were able to sense that the siege was ultimately doomed, Feanor and Fingolfin only realised this when they were about to die, which was pretty useless in the end. Look at the actions of Finarfin, wisest of the Noldor aptly named Arafinwe (Wise-Finwe) by his father, as he decided to go back to Tirion rather then follow the Noldor to their tragic fate. Or of Finrod’s ‘wisest of the exiled Noldor’ realisation that he was embroiled in a greater fate then he imagined.

Celeborn, didn’t receive the reverence for his wisdom that he did for no reason. For example, his giving of the boats to the Fellowship was a shrewd decision.

We can see that the wisdom of a character, effect their judgment. The ‘wiser’ people like Galadriel, Gandalf and Faramir reject the Ring whilst the less wise Isildur and Boromir did not, and fell into evil. Finarfin ,the wiser of the three brothers, chose the wisest course. Constantly we can see that the wise are the true ‘wise’ since their decision always end up to be the best course.

[Azog]

Wis"dom\ (-d[u^]m), n. [AS. w[imac]sd[=o]m. See Wise, a., and -dom.] 1. The quality of being wise; knowledge, and the capacity to make due use of it; knowledge of the best ends and the best means; discernment and judgment; discretion; sagacity; skill; dexterity.

wise: Having the ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting

Wise- Shrewd; crafty.

Wise: Provided with information; informed.

Definitions of wisdom courtesy of www.dictionary.com. I believe that it means more than that.


To not live to your full potential is not wisdom. Did anyone EVER live up to their 100% full potential? I have not seen that in any of the characters in M.E. They are all imperfect, and there is nothing wrong with that.

But few, if any lived to their full potential. Gandalf had flaws, and came the closest, in my opinion, to overcoming them. Even after returning as Gandalf the White, he still had some imperfections.

Gandalf- Wiser ones might have done worse in such a pass.

Gandalf acknowledges that he might have done worse. He also acknowledges that anyone wiser than Pippin Took (the fool) could have done much worse. This, in itself, shows that wisdom can falter, unless it is 100% true wisdom.

That is all for now.

[Inderjit S]

wise: Having the ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting

Sounds like the decisions of the 'Wise' Vanyar and Finarfin in not leaving Aman, rather then the impetuous Noldor.

A note here, though the Noldor is a name of wisdom (A pre-Quenyarin name since 'Quendi and Eldar' mentions that the Minyarin and Nelyarin Quendi named them so) they are IMO, masters of 'Kurwe' or arts; crafts; lore etc, they do not possess the 'true' foresight or wisdom of the Vanyar or the Finarfians. The same can be said of Saruman, who was caught up in all the lore of the rings and various mechanisms, that he turned to evil. So one can argue that the 'true wise' were epitomised by the values put forward and Gandalf, Elrond etc all retained these ‘wise’ values.

Wise- Shrewd; crafty.

Undoubtedly Gandalf's plan to destroy the ring was shrewd and crafty.

Did anyone EVER live up to their 100% full potential?

I don't see how imperfection can be considered 'unwise'. All of Eru's 'creatures' for lack of a better word had their power limited to whatsoever Eru thought best to befit them.

Gandalf's humility, one of his 'strongest' features means he will not acknowledge his wisdom, for the most part. Note his behaviour in 'Helms Deep' and 'The Road to Isengard' in which he constantly rebuts Theoden's praise.

[Azog]

Undoubtedly Gandalf's plan to destroy the ring was shrewd and crafty.

Yes, it may have been crafty, but it was also irrational. Without being omnipotent, Gandalf was sending the hobbits to sure doom, where only the fool Gollum could save them.

Why is Gollum a fool though? I think that he was because of his allowing the Ring to overpower him. This resulted in his death. He was also shrewd and crafty, but even with all odds in his favor, he managed to lose. One instance of this was the encounter with Shelob. Gollum set up a perfect trap. It only so happened that Sam managed to stab the spider with Sting. Gollum loses. Gollum shows some of the same characteristics as Gandalf, but luck is what seems to make him seem the fool, and Gandalf the wiser.

rather then the impetuous Noldor.

Galadriel, daughter of Finarfin of the Noldor had to have gone to Middle Earth. She is considered one of the wise also. If leaving to go to Middle Earth is so impetuous, why did she ever come? She could not be counted as wise in that case.



Gandalf may have been humble, but he was also rather quicktempered and irrational at some times. He didn't deserve that praise all too much. He was the one who stole Shadowfax. Even though Shadowfax was used for good, it was still stolen. Would a wise man steal? I think not. He was also the one who seemed to get angry often. This was probably because of nervousness, something that shouldn't go beyond an interior feeling when leading a group of people into peril.

[Inderjit S]

Without being omnipotent, Gandalf was sending the hobbits to sure doom, where only the fool Gollum could save them.

Didn't you say Pippin was the fool? Besides Gollum was competent enough on his own level, he had a good geographical and historical knowledge.

Also any incarante would allow the ring to overpower them as that was one of it's main 'powers' so to speak, how is that foolishness on Gollum's part?



Galadriel, daughter of Finarfin of the Noldor had to have gone to Middle Earth. She is considered one of the wise also. If leaving to go to Middle Earth is so impetuous, why did she ever come? She could not be counted as wise in that case.

That was in her youth when her wisdom was not full grown as Tolkien comments on in 'Galadriel and Celeborn' (U.T) and the Shibboleth. She wanted to go to M-E because she wanted to expereicne a bliss-free land and to rule arealm of her own in the wide east how is that unwise?

He was the one who stole Shadowfax

That was the only avenue he had left open I mean seriously what do you want him to do? Jog there? Catch the express train? The Hobbits and the ring were extremely close to capture and that was the only way he could get them out of danger.

and irrational at some times

Where was he 'irrational'? :confused:

Gollum shows some of the same characteristics as Gandalf, but luck is what seems to make him seem the fool, and Gandalf the wiser.

So you're saying that luck is hat sperated the wisdom of one of the wisest beings in Ea and Gollum? Hm........

[Azog]

Sorry about this, but I am gonna drop out of this debate. I really am not spending enough time on TTF to debate anyone, or do anything at the site right now. I guess that Inder wins by default.

Good debating with you, though.