The Gift of Men (death) vs Immortality in Ea - which is the greater gift?

[Flame of Utumno]

Dear Silmarillion Fanatics,

Do you believe that the gift of the elves, Immortal life on Arda is greater than the Gift of Men - death?

I think this is a tough question, but I believe that the Gift of Men is ultimately greater than any gift given to Elves or the Valar because as stated in the Silmarillion, Ch.1:
'Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy'.

I interpret this to mean that as ages pass, even the Valar become weary of their immortality and so will eventually envy the gift of men which is death.

What are your thoughts?

[Wizdom]

I think the gift of death is better becouse everyone has to die sum time.....

[ratodelmorte]

i whole heartedly agree with you both, the gift of death is graeter, the pain of mortality waers on the conscience amd the body....it is better to burn out-than to fade away.....the gift of immortality i speak of is one one of fatherhood, my son is my greatest contribution, as i die he will live on, and carry my name with him....such view of mine is like the romans of old...their gods
have receded and faded away to being just a mythology, buthe roman people still live....................






rato coughs, takes questions....coughs again, twitches whiskers...
clears throught and answers questions....hops down from the podium..............crawls back into his hole in the wall.

[Aredhel]

I may have to agree with all of you on this matter. I think the Elves did, at some point, because when they lived forever, they saw the grievances done to Middle-earth, and, being elves, loved the works of thier hands, probably far more than anything else. They probably wished that they could also pass away, and not live to see the destruction of things. I think this is what made them sad. I won't say that I liked the part when Legolas says when thier leaving Lothlorien; Time passes both swift and slow, swift, because they themselves change little and everything around them is changing, and slow, because they do not count time for themselves, and I won't say that I didn't like it. But when I read it, I felt very sad for the elves, because they were immortal, and had to see the destruction of the things they had made to be.

[Moonbeams]

I belive immortality was a greater gift.
Everything dies, and everything changes, "the only thing constant is change", and it is the way of the world. But change teaches you a lot, makes you a better person, makes you value everything you have now, for the next day it might not be there. And isn't it exciting to see what will come next, in what way will the world change into tomorrow? And wasn't it worth it to see Sauron finaly defeated, after you knew of his deeds form the past, no, after you lived through them?
Everything changes... We are all sad to leave our homes, but we rejoice for adventures ahead. We all hate to see something die, but we know that something new will be born. It's change and time that show us the value and greatness and beauty of life, not death. Death is something we must make peace with, another change, but one that takes us away from flowers, wind, smell of the sea, birds in flight, change of life.
Immortality was a greater gift. The only way it could be a less is if Elves were unable to adjust to change.

[Eonwe]

OK first post, please forgive me

I think that the Silmarillion states that Men are not "bound to Arda" meaning that their fates lie beyond the halls of Mandos, outer seas (I forget what they are called, outside of the world, valinor, but inside the outer void), and ultimately beyond the void. So I think it implies that men are able to "start over" somewhere else.

I think that the elves of Eressa (the island just east of Valinor where all the Teleri were slain) tried hard to convey this fate to the men of Numenor when they started whining about death...

Also I would agree that perhaps millions of years in Valinor would eventually become somewhat dull? or at least there would be no more story left of Arda, so I think that is what is said why the immortals would envy Men eventually.

[ratodelmorte]

yes perhaps this is a question of whether in immortality there is change, or do the elves see the changes in the land as something that they are beyond , for surely a day to an elf is a year to a man....if the elves no longer counted, then what change do they see, feel....in the mutable seasons, in the trees of their forests...The Gift of the second born, the men....to die? or to start a new, in a new form? the elysium? (although a non tolkish idea)
is this place beyond the flame, beyond the void?...seperate of iluvater....within him?
Did the elves, who fashioned many things of great beauty, great power, and tragedy(such as feanor and the silmarils), envy the men, who lived their short lives with such ardenence, such brightness that they wished to die?
change is a powerful topic, the miasma of potentialities abound, and all i know is the life of a mortal....i have my ups and my downs, like all......i must think further if i am to comment on whether i would like immortality.
but as to envy, i don't know how to answer that question...i have never met an immortal to know what it would be like to be immortal, all i have are my mortal friends....when we cry...it is bad...BUT, when we laugh it is forever.

[Beren Erchanion]

I think that's immortality the greater of the two's but just because the human fear the death more than anything (well most of them) and that's the source of their weakness, that's why they search the power more than any child of Erù and most of the time that lead them to do strange and unforgiveable things. What's amazing is that the peoples who can face the death (human death of course) are the elves (just think of Lùthien or Arwen). But if humanbeing was strong enough to face the death without fear their gift would be better than immortality because that lead them to procreate enough to take over Arda and show to the world what they can do.

[Gloer]

In the point of view of the Dark Lord, death was something he could not take away from men.

The conversation between Hurin and Melkor was very good.
At one point Hurin denies that Morgoth is the his Lord and that he can not hold Hurin enslaved. Not even Morgoth can stop Hurin from escaping. Ultimately Hurin will die and slip beyond Morgoths reach unlike the elves. So there is a man that is weak and his weakness at the same time gives power for greater defiance against Morgoths Lordship than all elves together ever could!

Thus Morgoth makes men fear death so they are afraid of it and rather submit to his rule than embrace death.

Then he lies that he is the Lord of Fates in Arda. He wants men to see death as falling in a dark realm where he is the Lord. And maybe he is.

So I state that to Morgoth men posed a real threat. As long as they did not fear death there would be a generation after generation young men who defy his lordship, multiply, and then die and slip from his reach! Year after year, forever!

the elves could be twisted and enslaved, broken and killed. The elves did not multiply much. They were very attached to the world and thus the ruler of the earth would have power over the elves too, for good or bad. But these men indeed had a powerful gift!

Sauron knew a fix for it, where as Morgoth didn't: He promised men immortality. He extended, streched their years and turned them into wraiths. His slaves...

Men are like the Pheonix -bird that is born again from the flames of it's dead body. Men are immortal as a race and stronger too. Men as a race stay young forever, as elves grow old and sad with time.

[Curufinwe]

Immortality would be bliss in a land like middle earth were there is so much to explore and people to meet etc.

[Eonwe]

don't you think it would get tiresome after a few million years? I mean Liv Tyler looks good, but...;)

BTW great post Gloer! u no yer stuff!:cool:

[Curufinwe]

There would be plenty more........

[Lorien]

hey i'm new here and i think that being around forever no matter if it was a place like the middle earth would get boring cos u would have to live ur life seeing morons screw up your world....

[Curufinwe]

But If you die,would the next place be as good?

[Arien]

The gift of men is infinitely greater. When you die, life is basically releasing you from the pain, misery, and confusion of this world. Death is the final resting place. Its the same with Middle Earth.
The elves on the other hand, are doomed to watch and grow weary as men age and die. After a while, life would not seem like such a gift to them anymore.

[Curufinwe]

Yes well I would still prfer walking around on middle earth.

[Meklos]

I think the gift of men was ultimately greater. Elves (though they never died) did not know what would happen to them at the end of time, while it was stated that men would join in the Second Music of the Ainur.

Also, men could go beyond the world into the void, where Elves were destined to remain in Valinor forever.

[Tar-Ancalime]

It seems to me, althought the prospect of being able to not be tortcerd by pestileince is nice.. to live forever would make you plain depressed.

[Lorien]

but how long would it be possible to walk around without getting depressed is the question....i mean i think we all would like to stay in middle-earth but can we withstand the wrongdoings done to the middle-earth by other people....and wouldn't you like to know what the "other place" looks like?

[Flame of Utumno]

I think it is also a question of whether the existence of men after death beyond the world of the living is a better existence than the life experienced in Valinor.

As stated in the Silmarillion, Ch. 1, 'It is one with this GIFT OF FREEDOM that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive and are not bound to it'.

Death for Men is absolute freedom from the world and its fate and also implies a life beyond death for Men. Immortality in the world eventually becomes a prison in the world.

Imagine being an immortal in the world and yet needing to be hidden and allowing the world to be dominated by mortals as is the case with the Elves and the Valar in Valinor.

I could go further and suggest that the immortality of the Elves is not exactly immortality because they can still be killed, and so this is really an imperfect gift from Iluvatar as compared with that for men.

Also look at it this way, if you were an Elf, and had to fight it to the death with a Man, knowing that you could be killed by this man, wouldn't you be more worried than the man, because all Men eventually die anyway and go beyond the world. So being an Elf in the world would really mean living a life of avoiding death at all costs, hence a life of immortal fear of death.

Therefore I still believe the gift of Iluvatar to Men is greater than his gift to the Elves.

[Bombur]

Another thing is that even in death the Elves are still prisoners of Ea. They go to the Halls of Mandos. Thus the Elves life seems an unending weariness. But I see one more thing: reincarnation. If the elves get to be reincarnated (or released from Mandos) it is concievable that they would "begin again" (not a quote) and with that fresh start their weariness would be assuaged. If that is the case I think that immortality would be superior to mortality because one could continue indefinitely while always seeing things anew (through the eyes of a child).
One more thing, elves seem to be able to simply lay down and die when weary of the world (like Feanor's mother, her name eludes me). So an Elf could start again whenever it is convienient for him. I like that idea. ;)

[Curufinwe]

Miriel was Feanor's mothers name, and the funny thing about her was that she seemed to be in a coma to Finwe when he went to seee her in the place shelied.

[Orome]

Seems to me strife would have you feel old whether or not you age. It is not the length of time someone would live but what happens during that time which would make so much difference. For the elves their sorrow was at having seen so many wonderful things pass before their eyes, especially the elves of light. Did any of them complain about much before Morgoth messed around with so many things? Before they passed through so much sorrow the length of their lives may have seemed something about which they would not even think. Immortality would be a gift given that the amount of strife and sorrow was balanced by the amount of joy experienced. Anything is only a gift as measured by its usefulness in its surrounding. Immortality would be a gift singing songs all the time and enjoying pretty trees of light. Mortality would be a gift when seeing sons and daughters passing before you in battles or in torment of torture. Depends on where you are and what you are experiencing for when anything can be considered a gift.

The part of the gift which was at the end of time with men's certainty versus the uncertainty of elves would have to figure in. What was mentioned about the men joining in the singing of the themes with the Ainur would be definitely considered gift. Imagine being told, "Okay, you can live forever but you may not get to see God." Oh joy and fun!!!! Would that be a gift? Given that in perspective one thing one place can be a gift and in another place be a curse that would have to balance the decision toward men getting the better gift overall because of what the gift they would eventually receive in my opinion.

[Sirona]

The elves,have everything that we want: beauty,talent, endless love,magic powers etc... Don't you think,that something so perfect can't die? For a human,immortality would be a disaster , human are not perfect,human's need to go to a place,where they could reach the perfetion...But,yes - elves,Valar and Maiar one day will feel tired from life,like Middle-earth became to old and borried for them. But people will never learn what is that - to stay for ever young, to love for ever, to see with your heart and your soul...Is it so good then to be mortal? In a human being,like i said - yes it is.:)

[Moonbeams]

Immortality would be a gift singing songs all the time and enjoying pretty trees of light. Mortality would be a gift when seeing sons and daughters passing before you in battles or in torment of torture. Depends on where you are and what you are experiencing for when anything can be considered a gift.

My dear Orome, I agree completley with you. And this is why I belive immortality to be a greater gift. Beacuse I belive that not even elves have a prefect memory, and everybody, (except pessimistic people), tend to remember mostly good things that happened, and forget the bad ones. And remember that men themselves do not concider their mortality as a gift. They would much rather have a few more years on ME than be released from it. There are so many things to see, to do, one life is not enough.

Everybody keeps saying that elves tire of their immortality. Who except for Miriel got tired? They didn't even want to leave ME, let alone die because they have to leave. They might get tired occasionaly, but not all the time. And the they have the option of rebirth if they want to have another go.
I still belive the elven immortality was a grreater gift of Iluvatar.

[lilhobo]

well, what happens when elf gives up immortality like Luthien and Arwen.....

the little appendix at the end of LOTR tells of Arwen going of to Loth Lorien and delving there after Aragon dies. Celeborn and Galadriel had already left the Grey Haven so she resided by herself.....it might have mention a grave but she lived in weariness

PS. i think it was written by chris tolkien or someone else but not JRR

[lilhobo]

remind me of who the elves and valar and maiar are again?? :D tis a while since i read the silmarillion

the Eldar (= elves) were not perfect, they had the same faults as men, desire pride and greed, came back to ME to take the silmarils back from melkor

[Lhunithiliel]

Classical topic - classical discussion! It can go on forever! Interested?

[Lintecoireion]

I think that death is the greater gift, simply because after 10,000 years of living, the joy and sorrow and beauty and horror that you had seen would probably kill you (elves can die by sorrow and wounds). Maybe its just my mortality trying to make itself look more appealing, but thats the way i see it.

[wraith_q]

I would think the greater gift would be that of men and mortality. To live forever in an imperfect world subject to age and decay and pain would be too much even for an elf. It would be different if by immortality you meant eternal life in the hereafter, a heaven that knows no such imperfections, no such pain, and no such loss.

[Aglarband]

The reason they are called gifts is because they are things the other races do not have. I think Elves wish for death while Men wish for immotality. To both races the others' gift is greater.

[Artanis]

I would most definately say that the gift to Men was the greatest, for several reasons. It was not primarily about mortality (a term which I think can be misleading btw, the Elves are also mortal, only their normal lifespan is vastly much longer), but it was a gift of freedom from fate as it was laid out by the Music of the Ainur. As it has been said here before, it was a gift "which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy". The fëar of Men were not bound to the world, as opposed to the fëar of the Elves who had no means to escape from their sorrows and regrets as the centuries went by. Think of the ability of Men to lie down and die wilfully and in peace when old age had reached them. I've always considered this ability to be most enviable.

Also, when Arda ceases to exist, what will happen to the Elves then? Since their existence is bound to Arda, will it be their ultimate end? We don't know, and they don't know.