Guild of Ents

[BlackCaptain]

I hereby open this guild to all members who are skilled in Tolkien lore, however not walking dictionarys; for those who read Tolkiens works the way they're suposed to be read: Slowly. For all who only relish in Tolkien's works, and not taking anything to suriously. For those who simply want to read Tolkien and understand it. We exhibit neither the utmost understanding in Tolkien's works, but while at the same time know what we're talking about. For all of those who couldn't care less what Tom Bombadil is, but simply accept him for being Tom, and not constantly trying to find the answer; For those who don't debate, but discuss rather; For those who aren't entirely concerned with the world and its matters; For all of those who simply want to read Tolkien and learn without. Could the Eagles have dropped the Ring into Mount Doom? Sure. So why didn't they? We don't care. Probly cuz it would have made the book much less climatical, and Tolkien didn't wanna cut it short.

Come! Join! Relish! And just slow things down a bit.

[Elbereth]

At long last! I have finally found someone who I can relate with on this forum!

You have managed to describe how I have viewed Tolkien since day one. I love Tolkien and reading his works. I try to learn as much as I possibly can, and try to understand the wonderful world that he created. However, I can care less about picking apart his work for the sake of debating. I do not care if Balrogs have wings or if there are any Entwives left on Middle Earth. I would rather accept Tolkien's stories as he wrote it and let my imagination run amuck in the wonderful world that he created.

Now I can of course appreciate the serious debators in the forum. I admit I have learned a great deal from all of them. However, for me to be expected to argue that one opinion is better than the other is rediculous. I would rather sit back...say that both sides are correct and be done with it. (but that is just me though..:) )

My hope is that this can be a place where we can simply celebrate the wonderful thing that Tolkien has created. Free of judgement, free of argument. Simply a place that we can praise the remarkable creation of Middle earth and its vivid history and characters.

I look forward to seeing this guild take off. I only hope that more TTF'ers will be able to share in our unique point of view.

[BlackCaptain]

It's almost scary how badly you just took the words out of my head...

I declare you Vice President... er... Deputy Guildmaster ...er... Second in command!

I look forward to seeing this thread take off... and mabey it'll someday have a link on the front page...

This 'Guild' is pretty much as follows:
- Different members pick different topics that are widely debated (Such as Tom, Balrogs, Entwives) and we, the Ents we are, discuss (not debate) and come to a conclusion on what an explanation can be; Why Tolkien didn't explain more about it, what an explanation would have been, and henceforth.
- STAY AS MUCH AWAY FROM POSSIBLE AS PLAYING ON WORDS... I saw a thread in the LOTR section about Mithril in Andor (Numenor's real name) and saw how the poster took about three words in the sentance and tried to get an idea
- Be relaxed! This is just a hang out place where we can discuss the fine points of Tolkein in a ... not so picky... way. Sort of one of those poetry houses where we all just hang back and discuss what we love without taking things to suriously

Until we get more members, Elbereth, I'm afraid we'll have to just hang low for a while until people start a'joinin. When (and if) we get up to around 5 members, we can start our chillen out. Until then lets hope we get some members!

[BlackCaptain]

Or perhaps 3 members is all we need!

[Elbereth]

No worries here.

However, for the sake of guild pride...and because my background is in marketing....I will put a nice little link of this guild in my signiture. Perhaps it may spark some fellow Ent Scholars. ;)

[BlackCaptain]

Way ahead of ya! This'll be really cool if it finaly gets off...

I'm in the mood for a steak Casadilla... hmm... thats wierd...

Anyhoo yeah good idea.

I notice your almost up to 1000 posts! Its a cool feelin! Congrats in advance!

[Elendil3119]

I will gladly join the Guild of Ents.:) I commend you on a most ingenious idea, BlackCaptain.

[YayGollum]

Sure, I'll join. Why not? I hardly ever take things seriously. I just don't give up on a few things. sorry about that. I'm an evilly stubborn person. Ick. Nasssty rankses! Anyways, since we're just a little bitty place right about now, what should we talk about in the one little bitty thread? :rolleyes:

[Elbereth]

I notice your almost up to 1000 posts! Its a cool feelin! Congrats in advance!

Actually at one time I had nearly 1300 posts...then they had the clean up and now I'm back below the 1000 mark...it's no big deal really!

And YayG...I think you should be the official Guild of Ents cynic...every guild has got to have one! ;)

[YayGollum]

That is a title I wouldn't mind, but I'd still rather not have the thing. oh well. Yay for the cynical! The smartest people I know! *sits in a comfy chair and waits for achingly interesting type discussions* I don't get how we can have discussions trying to explain things, though. We'll run into a dissagreement sometime. How will we know when they turn into a debate?

[Elbereth]

Well, that is just it.

A true Ent Scholar is in its very definition, laid back about our understanding and knowledge of Tolkien. We don't see things in black and white...rather we see it in the colorful pallatte that Tolkien created for his mythology. We don't care about bickering over little details of the story. We accept the story as a whole...and rather than dissecting it to pieces we exchange information, calmly and rationally, suggesting ideas and helping each other figure out what we don't understand.

If you can do that ...then you are indeed a Ent Scholar and are welcome to the guild!

[YayGollum]

Ah. Got it. So if we ever see someone say something crazy like ---> 'Smeagol killed Deagol,' we shouldn't go on a huge rant talking about how noone actually knows that because the only time we've ever heard it said was when the evil torturer Gandalf was telling the superly boring Frodo what Gollum told him while being evilly tortured and that you shouldn't trust Gollum? :eek: :rolleyes: We should just let it slide? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[BlackCaptain]

Umm... well it's a fact that Smeagol killed Deagol. It's in the appendicces... We would discuss more about why we think Smeagol felt so implied to kill deagol all of a sudden when he had barely even seen the Ring yet. Of course, the guild of Tolkienology and Scholars hall (although I'm not downsizing them) would find when exactly Deagol was murdured, and would probably find some outside force that compelled Smeagol to do such a thing.

We come to more logical and less nit-picky conclusions on things WITHOUT the debating.

[BlackCaptain]

And I wouldnt say 'let it slide' . If we just let things slide we wouldnt have anything to talk about! All we do is take things nice and slow and discuss.

[Anamatar IV]

This is a great idea, Blackcaptain! Although I am in the Guild of Tolkienology there is still that side of me that just wants to discuss things, not debate about them.

Hobbits are resiliant to the power of the Ring, right? So why did Smeagol last what two seconds before he lost control?

[YayGollum]

Take things nice and slow and discuss. Got it. I'd love to see the proof that says that Smeagol killed Deagol. Anyways, anamatar iv person, we really have no idea how long it took the Ring to mess poor Smeagol up so bad. I have no idea why you think it took two seconds.

[BlackCaptain]

Finaly! I can show an example of what this guild is about!

--------

Ive always thought that Tolkien just wanted to show how tempting the Ring can be if one doesn't have a wary mind. Plus it would really enhance the Smeagol/Gollum self debating character to have Smeagol so easily overrun by the temptation of the Ring. Tolkien perhaps needed a way to show just to what extents Gollum would go to for the Ring, so he made Smeagol kill his best friend for it. And sure, Hobbits are very resiliant, but not all Hobbits can be prone to pure Hobbitdom(In the sense they are resiliant to all this temptation).

[omnipotent_elf]

i'll join
please:D

[BlackCaptain]

Hmm... of course. But first you must riddle me this (Starting now anyone who wants to join has to answer a question, and what their answer is determines thier ... standing... [for lack of better word] in this guild) :

What do you think Tom Bombadil is?

[YayGollum]

Oo! That's just evil! Anyways, Ack! I'd like to see that proof now. As far as I know, the only reason anyone thinks that is because of what the evil torturer Gandalf told the superly boring Frodo what poor Smeagol told him while being evilly tortured. I see no reason to trust Gollum.

[BlackCaptain]

Haha... of course...

[Elbereth]

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
Hmm... of course. But first you must riddle me this (Starting now anyone who wants to join has to answer a question, and what their answer is determines thier ... standing... [for lack of better word] in this guild) :

What do you think Tom Bombadil is?

I have a strange theory on Tom Bombadil...but mind you this is just a theory.

I believe that Tom is a product of Illuvatar's original song before Melkor corrupted the music with his rebellious melodies. (bear with me...I just loaned out my copy of the Simarillion to a friend...so I can't reference anything at this time) He is a physical manifestation of nature. A voice for the elements. He is neither good nor evil...he just is and his existance brings balance to the nature that surrounds that area.

I do not believe that Tom is a Vala or a Maia...for he is not governed by the same rules as these beings. His existance is only linked with nature...and he is not effected by the influence of mystical magics. And as a direct creation of Eru, he can not be destroyed...unless all things are destroyed in Middle Earth before him. For he is said to be...."Last as he was the First."

[BlackCaptain]

That's actualy a great answer. I myself believe he is only Tom, but the 'First as he is Last' thing is just so eerie! I like that idea!

[YayGollum]

Huh. Well, at least it's a unique answer. Very cool. Why haven't you tossed that idea out before? Or have I just missed it? *sniff*

[BlackCaptain]

Omnipotent's in. He PM'ed me. Welcome aboord!

[Flame of Anor]

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
Hmm... of course. But first you must riddle me this (Starting now anyone who wants to join has to answer a question, and what their answer is determines thier ... standing... [for lack of better word] in this guild) :

What do you think Tom Bombadil is? I, too, am interested in joining this guild...and have been wanting to join on for a while.

As to the Tom Bomadil is question, shall i just pm you, BlackCaptain, with my answer. that appears to be what omnipotent elf did.

-Flame

[YayGollum]

Ack! Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. That elf person should say what he thinks. Isn't it more fun to get to see everyone's opinions? *sniff* :rolleyes: Nobody's stopping you, Flame_of_Arnor person.

[Flame of Anor]

I shall send BlackCaptain my thoughts and then post them here as well...now i need to go and gather them.

-Flame

[Elbereth]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Huh. Well, at least it's a unique answer. Very cool. Why haven't you tossed that idea out before? Or have I just missed it? *sniff*

Actually...no you didn't miss it before YayG. I didn't toss that idea out before, because I didn't think that it would be accepted as a good answer, because ultimately it is just a theory that I have not based on too much 'solid' evidence from the books. The theory just made sense to me...so that is what I always believed to be true. *shrugs* :rolleyes:

[omnipotent_elf]

thanx black captain


and yay, from what ive been told, to join guilds you have to pm the guild master thingy....
its just the way ive done every other......

tom bombadill to me is a 'mother nature' like character............something solitary, a creation tolkien used to symbolise 'mother nature'

[YayGollum]

Well, you know, crazy Elbereth person. I don't see how anybody can prove any of the crazy ideas they have. They're all pretty equal. oh well. I had no idea that you had to PM anybody to ask to join. Sounds evil to me. oh well.

[Arvedui]

I am one of those who honestly couldn't care less about eagles dropping rings into Mount Doom.
And I don't care about any Balrog's had wings debates, except when they get hillariously funny.
My question is: can I join this laidback Guild?

My answer to the Test is being sent to pres. BlackCaptain.

[Flame of Anor]

I too, am looking to join this guild and have sent my answer to BlackCaptain.

-Flame

[BlackCaptain]

Woah! I've been gone for a while! Everyone that wants to join is in... They're answers are all straight on! Now the first discusion of this forum...

--------------------

What do we all think the reason the Eagles didn't drop the Ring into Mordor was?

-------------------

I'm not looking for 'Because ... *insert quotes and more quotes*', or 'Well it just would have made the story boring.' We aren't too laid back, we all understand and acknowledge the immense depth of Tolkiens works; we just don't bring it to an extreme and dig up a bunch of quotes

[Elbereth]

Now this topic is not something that I have spent too much time mulling over, however, I do believe there are probably several reasons why the Eagles did not drop the ring into Mount Doom.

First of all, I think that like the Ents and the Tom Bombadil's of Middle earth, the eagles were not as concerned with the affairs of Man and Elves as many suppose. Yes, throughout the history of Middle Earth, Eagles have played a great role in helping those who are in need. However, their assistance has always been voluntary...they were never directly involved in any of the conflicts of middle earth (that I am aware of), and I believe that the eagles would rather not get directly involved in those affairs if they could help it.

[Flame of Anor]

Awesome, i am not officially a part of this Guild!!! **jumps up and down**

I think that i would have to agree with Elbereth's position. They were by no means obligated to do so. They did not meddle in the affairs of others often. I also think that Tolkien would not do such a thing...it would be far to anticlamactic in my book

-Flame

[YayGollum]

I hope that you meant to say that you are now a member of this place, Flame_of_Arnor person. :eek: oh well. Let me see here. Sure, I'd agree with this Elbereth person. The eagles always seemed to me to be the Radagast type. just sticking to his own little thing in some out of the way place. Only really helping out if it has to do with some friend of his. No big deal to him. He's immortal. He'll be around for a while. No need to get worried about changes going on that aren't affecting you. :D

[BlackCaptain]

I've always thought (just a strange assumption here) that since the Eagles didn't attend the Council of Elrond, they couldn't partake in this quest of the Ring. Like, the fate of ME was decided by those people, and would be brought out by those people. A little different answer, but it may hold some acuracy (I hope!)

[Flame of Anor]

hmm...that is an interesting thought. I wonder if Tolkien said anything about it in his letters. I don't know if he did for i haven't read them or have them.

-Flame

[BlackCaptain]

I have them... If there is a part in it about the eagles it isnt in the first half, seeing as how ive read the first half...

[YayGollum]

That's just craziness. Lots of the people that showed up at that council thing didn't even know it would take place. The eagles stick to the Misty Mountains. They helped out anyways. just like plenty of other people throughout the book. It's not like if some eagle showed up in Rivendell right after the council, they wouldn't let him help. :rolleyes:

[Elbereth]

There may be some validity to what you are proposing BlackCaptain, however, Tom B was suggested as a possible keeper of the ring, and he did not attend the council. So I do not believe that those not attending the council would not be allowed to assist in this problem.

Actually, after thinking about it...I think it may be entirely possible that the eagles could have taken the ring into Mordor to drop it into MT. Doom. However, because no one brought up the eagles at this meeting (in this context...Gandalf did mention the eagle did save him)...the idea was simply never given the opportunity to be considered.

[BlackCaptain]

Yes, Tom B didnt attend the council, which is a reson the idea of giving the Ring to him was disregarded. It showed how little he truley cared in the affairs of ME.

[BlackCaptain]

Yes, Tom B didnt attend the council, which is a reson the idea of giving the Ring to him was disregarded. It showed how little he truley cared in the affairs of ME.

[BlackCaptain]

Yes, Tom B didnt attend the council, which is a reson the idea of giving the Ring to him was disregarded. It showed how little he truley cared in the affairs of ME.

As for the Eagles not dropping the Ring into Mt.Doom, The Nazgul were still very abroad, and secrecy was the utmost priority of the Quest. And, Eagles are renowned for not helping until the utmost need. They're just last resorts sort of, and once Frodo entered Mordor, that resort was gone

[YayGollum]

Care to delete a couple of those posts? oh well. Let me see here. I thought that they said what the reason was for Tom Bombadil not getting to mess with the Ring. It had nothing to do with him not coming to that little council thing. Did the guy even know that was going to happen? I don't think so. oh well.

Anyways, the eagle thing ---> I can't think of anything that could stop the giant eagles from tossing the One Ring into that Mount Doom place. Those Nazgul people had just been tossed down a river and didn't have their crazy giant vulture things. What else could stop them? I have no idea. oh well. Sure, they may be renowned to us for not helping until the utmost need, but I doubt that many people even thought about them at that council thing. just like Beornings or Lossoth or Woses. They're not that famous. They stick to their own little places.

[Chymaera]

As for Eagles, they are ultimately creatures of Manwë. They were there to aid Gandalf and to helped fight in the Battle of the Five Armies and The Battle before the Gates of Cirith Gorgor, they always came near the end of the fight to tip the balance to good guys side.

Besides the book would have been very short if they gave the ring to the Eagles.

[BlackCaptain]

I agree. Eagles weren't meant to help until the utmost need

[Elendil3119]

From Letter 208
The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness.
That's all I could find from a brief examination. :)

[BlackCaptain]

Excelent! Nice quote Elendil!

Well I think that ends that!

[Elendil3119]

Anyone have a good idea for a new topic?

[BlackCaptain]

DurinLongBeard! Welcome to the Guild of Ents!

[YayGollum]

Hm. Okay. DurinLongBeard. Let me see here. That reminds me of the Dwarves for some crazy reason. They were the first born, you know. Why does everyone call the elves the first born?

[BlackCaptain]

Yes actualy... It's crossed my mind once or twice, and I never knew where to post it:

-------------------

What do you think the central theme of the LotR is?

-------------------

I myself think that the big picture; the central theme; the story behind the story; the plot;... is change happens, and not always for the better. It is the one of the simplest themes of life, and it is showed in the LotR in alot of ways:

-The First Children leaving and making way for the Second comers
-The Ents all dying out and finaly being at peace in Fangorn forrest
-The Scouring of the Shire
-The Return of Men
-GANDALF LEAVING!

The first point I think is the absolute main theme. Not the quest of the Ring, because that is just the quest, not the theme. Not the war against the East, because the central theme manifests itself through this. The Elves are finaly leaving ME for the Undying lands where they belong, and leaving ME for the Men, where they belong

[YayGollum]

I'll just assume that this person just missed my question. *sniff* :rolleyes: Anyways, hm. The theme? I never try to look deeply into a book to find some crazy lesson. I look at pretty much every book as entertainment. oh well. Let me see here. You think that the theme is ---> "Change happens. Deal with it." Sure, that makes all kinds of sense. Why not? How's about ---> "Even the most tragic of figures can still redeem himself in the end!" Speaking of Gollum and Grima, of course. The main heroes of the book. :D

[BlackCaptain]

Haha... I know! they were so the best people!

And Elves are called the first born because there are two offspring of Illuvitar:
The Elves and The Men

TheElves came before the Men, so they are called the firstborn!

[YayGollum]

Ah. Got it. So they only get to be called the first born just because they were the first that Iluvatar made. We're just forgetting about Aule. Poor guy. I would think that the Dwarves would walk around saying that they were the first people that were actually born, but oh well. They didn't really know what was going on then. How's about we just call the elves the first born of Iluvatar now? :( :rolleyes:

[DurinLongBeard]

Hey everybody! I think that the central theme is men sort of redeaming themselves and coming into their own with out the elves/"mommy and daddy". As for Yays question, one can only wonder. I heard in one thread something about the dwarwves being the first but not actually "waking up" until after the elves had come. Sound right?

[YayGollum]

Hm. So we have ---> "Change happens. Deal with it." "Even the most tragic of figures can still redeem himself in the end!" and "The coming of age of an entire race."

Anyways, no, that Dwarf thing isn't right. Unless the elves actually woke up before Aule got his Dwarves working. The Sil. never really gives dates for either of those things.

[BlackCaptain]

Well techincally the Dwarves were the first, but the elves are called the Firstborn of Illuvitar, because Aule, not Eru, made the Dwarves. And the Dwarves didn't awake untill after the Elves

[BlackCaptain]

Mommy and Daddy thing?! Ahh dude I told you you have to read the Sil! You'll understand how thats wrong then! IM TELLIN YA DUDE! READ IT! haha;) :D :)

[Flame of Anor]

I do believe that the Dwarves were not allowed to wake up before the First Born. But it has been a year almost since i read The Silmarillion.

-Flame

[BlackCaptain]

Yeah... Aule made the Dwarves, and Manwe said that they needed to go to sleep until the Elves awoke because the Elves had to be the first born

[YayGollum]

Okay. The Dwarves were awake for about two seconds, then Eru put them back to sleep just so the elves would get to do whatever they wanted first. Problem solved. Anyways, let me see here. Too bad not a lot of people care about the theme. Hm. A new and achingly intelligent discussion. How's about my favorite? Who was the real hero of LOTR? :D You all know what the answer is. It's achingly obvious. Don't let the fact that the nicest characters are usually the main heroes get in the way.

[BlackCaptain]

I would actualy say Gandalf. Frodo would be dead in the Shire if it wasn't for him. And there wouldnt be a Return of the king then, and there wouldnt be so much stuff...

[YayGollum]

Hm. Got it. just trying to understand ---> How can the evil torturer Gandalf be the hero of a story where the goal is to destroy the One Ring and save Middle Earth and kill Sauron? Let me think for about two seconds. Yes, Gollum did all of those things. If you're going to say ---> "Oh, but Gandalf helped get the One Ring to where it had to be!" I could just say ---> "Yes, but so did so many others." I'm talking about the guy that actually saved the day in the very end. *hides*

[Chymaera]

Okay. So Déagol finds the ring in the river a brings it to shore. Then Sméagol seeing that the ring is evil takes the ring from Déagol too save him from the evil ring.

Is that right?

[Elendil3119]

When we discuss the true hero of LotR, - whoever that may be - we need to be careful to also examine the motives of each character. For example, when Gollum destroyed the Ring, it was a result of his greed, lust, and malice. His intention was not to save Middle-earth from evil. He was consumed by his desire for the Ring, and although the result of this was the destruction of the Ring, I don't believe he can be called the true hero just because of the result of his greedy actions.

[YayGollum]

Chymaera person, what does what you just said have to do with who you think the hero is? just wondering. sorry for the confusion.

Anyways, I've never gotten how the thoughts of the person has to do with who the hero is. oh well. The book never says what Gollum was thinking at the time. Even if it did, I doubt it was greedy type things. Maybe just some creepy and unnatural desire. Also, you can't forget Smeagol. There are two personalities there. Too bad Tolkien never said what they were both thinking, huh?

[Elendil3119]

Yay, its not what he was thinking, its what his intentions were. The destruction of the Ring was an accident.
Gollum on the edge of the abyss was fighting like a mad thing with an unseen foe. To and fro he swayed, now so near the brink that almost he tumbled in, now dragging back, falling to the ground, rising, and falling again. And all the while he hissed but spoke no words. The fires below awoke in anger, the red light blazed, and all the cavern was filled with a great glare and heat. Suddenly Sam saw Gollum's long hands draw upwards to his mouth; his white fangs gleamed, and then snapped as they bit. Frodo gave a cry, and there he was, fallen upon his knees at the chasm's edge. But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought of living fire. 'Precious, precious, precious!' Gollum cried. 'My Precious! O my Precious!' And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell.
Of course, this is probably the quote that most moves your heart, right? ;) Anyways, I think this is all the evidence you need to deduce that Gollum WAS thinking "greedy type things", and that the destruction of the Ring was a complete accident. Gollum's motives were not true, and his actions were malicious and self-centered. He was not at all concerned with the good of Middle-earth, and therefore, I do not think that he can be considered the true hero of LotR.

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Chymaera person, what does what you just said have to do with who you think the hero is? just wondering. sorry for the confusion. Sorry, YayGollum person;) I was just trying to confirm what your thought Gollum's actions or motivations were when he took possesion of the ring.

Originally posted by Elendil3119
When we discuss the true hero of LotR, - whoever that may be - we need to be careful to also examine the motives of each character. For example, when Gollum destroyed the Ring, it was a result of his greed, lust, and malice. His intention was not to save Middle-earth from evil. He was consumed by his desire for the Ring, and although the result of this was the destruction of the Ring, I don't believe he can be called the true hero just because of the result of his greedy actions

If we concede that brave and hero are closely linked.

Hero - A person who does great or brave deeds and is admired for them.

Brave - Strength of mind in the face of fear, danger, or difficulty.

The Lord of the Rings has many heros to offer great and small.

[YayGollum]

If what he was thinking had nothing to do with it, Elendil3119 person, then why do you even talk about it? oh well. You don't believe in accidental heroes? Anyways, you still can't tell what poor Smeagol was thinking. I like to say that he was thinking ---> "Glad I never took those dancing lessons!"

Chymaera person ---> If you wanted to talk about something else, you could have just said that you could care less about what we were just talking about, then move on to your little subject. oh well. No, I don't think you were right about Gollum's actions or motivations were when he took possesion of the One Ring. I think that the evil bully Deagol started bragging about the superly cool little thing he just found and the One Ring saw that Smeagol was way cooler than Deagol, so it messed with the poor little dude's brain and he suddenly had a second and way more aggressive personality. oh well. Also, there are a lot of definitions for the word ---> hero.

[Elendil3119]

Yay, you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about momentary thoughts. I'm talking about the overall intentions and motives, and I hope you would agree that Gollum's motives in obtaining the Ring were not for the good of Middle-earth.

[YayGollum]

Sure, I don't mind agreeing that Gollum wasn't the nicest guy around. I love pointing out that Smeagol wasn't so bad, though. Anyways, what was the bad thing about being an accidental hero? just wondering. I don't really get the people that only like the obviously heroic. Silly me.

[Elendil3119]

Don't get me wrong, I agree completely that Gollum is *an* accidental hero, but is he the true hero of the entire LotR saga? In fact, I don't think that there is a single hero of the story. Everybody contributed so much - even Gollum! -, and sacrificed so much that I think it is impossible for one to single out a single character as the one who contributed/sacrificed most. :)

[YayGollum]

Hm. I don't see why he wouldn't be thought of as the true hero of LOTR. What was the true goal? Was it not to destroy the One Ring and kill Sauron and save Middle Earth? :eek: :rolleyes: :D

[BlackCaptain]

Hmmm... seeing as how we're all DISCUSSING;) :D it already... the new topic:

Who do you think is the true hero of LOTR?


I myself find Gandalf the ultimate hero, while the quest still would have failed without Gollum, it would fail utterly more without Gandalf

[YayGollum]

It's not a new topic. You just changed one word. Here's what I said already. oh well. ---> Hm. A new and achingly intelligent discussion. How's about my favorite? Who was the real hero of LOTR?

Anyways, got it. You think it was the evil torturer Gandalf. Here's what I said to that the first time you said that. Feel like replying to it this time? ---> Hm. Got it. just trying to understand ---> How can the evil torturer Gandalf be the hero of a story where the goal is to destroy the One Ring and save Middle Earth and kill Sauron? Let me think for about two seconds. Yes, Gollum did all of those things. If you're going to say ---> "Oh, but Gandalf helped get the One Ring to where it had to be!" I could just say ---> "Yes, but so did so many others." I'm talking about the guy that actually saved the day in the very end. *hides*

[Elendil3119]

Yay, how many times is it going to take for you to admit that Gollum was not the one and only TRUE hero of LotR?:rolleyes: :D I'll go over it once more...

"Hero" - 1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities. 2. a person, who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as an ideal or model.
Gollum, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities? Please...:rolleyes: Gollum has none of the above qualities, and therefore cannot be considered a "hero" according to the definition of the word. He also cannot be considered the true hero of LotR because his motives were not the good of Middle-earth and the destruction of Sauron. Gollum's intentions were malicious and greedy. He is *an* accidental hero, but not the true hero.

In fact, I don't think there IS a single true hero of LotR. If I had to, I could narrow it down to Gandalf and Frodo, but how do you differentiate between the two? Frodo wouldn't have made it if it weren't for Gandalf, but Gandalf depended on Frodo for the destruction of the Ring. Both would have failed without the other. Gollum did "save the day" in the end, but does that make him the one and only true hero? He destroyed the Ring on accident, for goodness' sakes!:rolleyes: Do you have anything new to say, or should we drop the subject? :D

[YayGollum]

sorry, but I will never believe that Gollum was not the one and only true hero of LOTR? I don't get why it isn't obvious to everyone that reads the bookses.

As for your definitions, Gollum is definitely a hobbit of distinguished courage and ability. You don't agree with that? I wish I could find the quote where Tolkien talks about how superly cool Gollum is. He agrees with me. :D

Also, he's also definitely admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities. I think it's pretty brave to jump on some invisible guy who's going crazy on the edge of some volcanic type place. It's also pretty noble to save Middle Earth. I thought. Silly me, huh?

Also, also, he's a person, who, in the opinion of me, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as an ideal or model. :D

Anyways, you keep talking about motives when you only know one of his personality's. Stop that, crazy person. You say that an accidental hero can't be the true hero. Why's that?

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Elendil3119
Yay, how many times is it going to take for you to admit that Gollum was not the one and only TRUE hero of LotR?:rolleyes: :D

That won't happen until Friday the first of Summerfilth, I'm afraid :D

Nevertheless, he is wrong, IMO. Allthough one cannot deny that Gollum is important to the story, and to the outcome, he is no hero.
The true hero of LotR is Samwise Gamgee! (And now, YayGollum went mad;) )
Sam went with Frodo all the way from the Shire to Mordor and the Crack of Doom, allthough he didn't have to, at least not from Rivendell I'll admit. But he did more than just follow Frodo. Even when Frodo tried to leave the Fellowship, Sam stayed true. When he thought that Ungoliant had killed Frodo, he took the responsibility of fulfilling the quest by himself. Even if he knew that he would have to go all the way through Mordor by himself, all the time getting nearer to Sauron, and with Gollum chasing him.

That, my fellow Ents, is heroism.

[Elendil3119]

Yes, that is very true! Sam was *a* hero, but how can you say he contributed more than the rest? He was assuredly the most heroic and faithful, but was he the most essential to the mission? I continue to hold to my position that you can't seperate one character of the story from the rest and say that he is the true single hero.:) I hereby proclaim the members of the Fellowship as the true heroes of LotR, with the rest of those who fought for the freedom of Middle-earth taking a close second place. There is simply no way to say that one person was more important than the rest. None of them would have got anywhere if it hadn't been for each member of their party. I'm too tired to do it right now, but I'm pretty sure that at some point or another, each member of the Fellowship saved the rest from some kind of danger or disaster, that would have endangered the ultimate success of their mission.

On the other hand, each of us Tolkien fans may have a "favorite" member of the Fellowship who we think was the most heroic etc. But I still don't think its possible to declare a single person as THE hero. :)

[Arvedui]

Well, I just thought we were supposed to say who we thought was the true hero.:(
If not, then you are only partly right. For what could the Fellowship have accomlished on their own, without the help from Elrond, Glorfindel, Galadriel, Faramir, Éomer etc, etc?
EDIT: And Smeagol/Gollum.

[Flame of Anor]

Originally posted by Elendil3119
Yes, that is very true! Sam was *a* hero, but how can you say he contributed more than the rest? He was assuredly the most heroic and faithful, but was he the most essential to the mission? I continue to hold to my position that you can't seperate one character of the story from the rest and say that he is the true single hero.:) I hereby proclaim the members of the Fellowship as the true heroes of LotR, with the rest of those who fought for the freedom of Middle-earth taking a close second place. There is simply no way to say that one person was more important than the rest. None of them would have got anywhere if it hadn't been for each member of their party. I'm too tired to do it right now, but I'm pretty sure that at some point or another, each member of the Fellowship saved the rest from some kind of danger or disaster, that would have endangered the ultimate success of their mission.

On the other hand, each of us Tolkien fans may have a "favorite" member of the Fellowship who we think was the most heroic etc. But I still don't think its possible to declare a single person as THE hero. :) ooh, very well said. i agree with you 100%

-Flame

[YayGollum]

*shakes head with all kinds of dissappointment* Oh, boy. The entire fellowship was the true hero? I'd go for what this Arvedui person is saying more than that. That's just craziness. Boromir, more important that Gollum? Ha! Anyways, can anyone tell me what the huge deal is with intent? The concept is simple. The main goal was to destroy the One Ring. Gollum did that. Sure, Yay for the all of the other heroic people in the book, but it's just too bad for them that they didn't destroy the One Ring, kill Sauron, and save Middle Earth! :rolleyes:

[Flame of Anor]

Yay, I am not going to argue with you, for that is not the point of this guild, which is to calmly share our points of view. Everyone has a different point of view as well. I respect yours. I can only hope that you will respect the views that happen to dissagree with yours.

-Flame

[YayGollum]

Me? Respect those insane and obviously unread views? *quells the frustration and clamps his hands over his mouth* Argh! oh well. Yes. This is a 'no big deal, quietly discuss' type guild. Great idea. *grits teeth* Doobedoobedoo... can someone please answer the question I asked in my last post? I would so enjoy an answer. :rolleyes:

[Arvedui]

Which question? There were three of them...

The entire fellowship? I have already answered that. I even edited my post to be more satisfactory to you:D
Boromir? In the end (his end, that is) he came out as more heroic than he was just an hour before, but more important? No, I don't think so.
Intent? I actually believe intent has got everything to say if you were to concider whether or not the odd fellow is a hero or not.
Yes, Gollum accomplished what Frodo failed to do. But IMO, that was just because of bad luck (and the author, of course). I will not go to the extreme and claim hero-right for Gollum, just because he don't know where to put his feet.

But anyway, I appreciate the way you always defend him.

[YayGollum]

Well, I was mostly going for the last question, but oh well. Yes, I wondered why Gollum wasn't in your post in the beginning. Anyways, Yikes! sorry for still not understanding why intent has to do with the title of hero. oh well. Yay for the ends justifying the means, right? :D You people don't understand the simple concept I was talking about earlier? You're conditioned minds always make you believe that the more admirable the character, the more heroic? Too bad. I was always thinking that Tolkien was going for the least likely hero of all time. *sniff*

[Arvedui]

Well, if that is the way you see it, I mean with the ends justifying the means, then I suppose that if Gollum had not tripped and fallen the wrong way, then Sam would have given him a tackle to make any rugby- or footballplayer proud.:D

[BlackCaptain]

Woah! Elendil! Lets not get to techincal with those defenitions!

The Hero of the book the Lord of the Rings:

A part of the central theme was the quest of the Ring. If someone does destroy the Ring, then yes, they're a hero, but not the true hero. Would Golllum even of had a chance to destroy the Ring if it wasn't for that evil torturer? It isn't possible to have one true hero either, and I know thats probly not what ur saying, but I'm just making it known. And, (I wouldnt have known this if it wasn't for Ithryluin) the destruction of Gollum was an intervention from Eru. Gollum's clumsieness didn't have everything to do with it. So I see where your going with the whole the point was to destroy the Ring and Gollum did that thing, but where would Gollum have been if it wasn't for Gandalf?

[greypilgrim]

I want to join this guild!

I would say Gollum would have been still lurking around Middle Earth looking for the ring. His lust for the ring was greater than anyone's because he possessed it longer than anyone, right? So the power of the magic in the ring effected him so much more than anyone else in the world that came near the ring because he had it for so long, right? Well except for Sauron, did he have the ring longer than Gollum?

On a side note...does Tolkien describe anywhere what the powers of the other rings are (men, elves, dwarves)...I know the ring Balin had needed gold to breed gold, so what were the other powers like? Does he say? Or is it a mystery like Tom Bomadil?

PS: I really like the idea for this guild! And I agree with Elbereth on T.Bombadil, besides having a funny name and all, he is a product of the world that was sung before (maybe even after, in the third theme) the world came to be (Tolkien's world, MiddleEarth...I can't relate to those people in here who relate the Bible to Lord of the Rings)...Tom, he just doesn't fit anywhere else! He's there in the woods til the world ends, I guess..

PROUD MEMBER OF THE GUILD OF ENTS!

[BlackCaptain]

I think that that Rings of Dwarves increased thier ability to mine for things, and I know that the Elven Rings made things beautiful and preserved things

[YayGollum]

Crazy Arvedui person, I would have thought that if Gollum did know how to dance, he would have escaped and the Nazgul would have found him and killed him. The evil sam seemed a little knocked out at the time. Anyways, sure, I guess that God could always be called the hero. Where would Gollum be without Gandalf? Aragorn probably would have killed him. Yay for Gollum being the real hero because he was the last one, destroyed the One Ring, killed Sauron, and saved Middle Earth.

[Elendil3119]

Well guys, I've said everything I have to say, and since nothing new has come up (*cough* YayGollum *cough*;)), I think its time for a new topic. :)

[BlackCaptain]

Ahh yes... Why not have our debate here Elendil? I forgot to add you to my buddy list on AIM and I can't ask you right now, so I'll ask you here! Why debate in front of all those people?! Besides this would be a good topic for the Guild of Ents!

[Flame of Anor]

ooh, BlackCaptain. Sounds intreguing. Though we still don't know what you are talking about...do fill us in please.

-Flame

[YayGollum]

Hm. Well, it looks like people can't prove me wrong, so they're just giving up. oh well. There's something to do with how this guild works in there, but I'm just too stubborn to worry about it. oh well. Let me see here. From what I can tell, this BlackCaptain person is asking why people should debate in front of lots of people. But that might not be right.

[Elendil3119]

No Yay, you just won't admit that you are wrong. :p BTW BC and I are going to have a debate about "Was Boromir evil?", but we're wondering where to hold it.

[YayGollum]

Why would I admit that I'm wrong when I and everyone else know that I'm not? Anyways, got it. Debate about the superly boring Boromir. Since you people have given up on trying to make sense out of the senseless thought of someone other than Gollum being the hero, how's about we just civilly talk about Boromir?

[BlackCaptain]

I'd be up for it... But Elendil and I still have to decide where to hold this thing, and we think we're gonna hold it in that bar place. Forget the name...

[YayGollum]

What, the bar place made just for RPGs? Probably. Anyways, doobedoobedoo... how is that interesting for anyone? Was Boromir evil? ---> I would say yes, but only as much as any other human. He was a mixture. Not pure evil, not pure good. just like any other human. There you go. Problem solved.

[BlackCaptain]

Thats the perfect answer for our guild, but Elendil and I are gonna have a debate, so we're gonna have ours at some bar place that I forget the name of again. We could discuss it here...?

[greypilgrim]

have the debate at the bar. i'll seeya there...

here's a question-->why is gollum the hero? Nevermind the answer...another question-->where are the entwives and did we burn them in the game the gathering of evil? BlackCaptain? YayGollum? You were there...were those ents there (near rivendell valley) the famous entwives?

Is that where they were(possibly) at? Oh well, so what, just a game. Just wondering though, because in the book there were non-descript trees there in the N. and S. of the valley, and we got attacked in that game there, but of course...we burned rivendell! haha! served us right! Shucks...

PS: I will debate Boromir

[YayGollum]

Why ask a question if you don't want an answer? Anyways, about the Entwives, that's just craziness. I doubt that Entwives lived anwhere near Rivendell. They either went way to the east where they were forgotten like the blue wizards, into the Old Forest where they became scary trees controlled by Old Man Willow, or way to the east back when that huge chunk of Middle Earth got sunk.

[BlackCaptain]

Actualy the Entwives would be a good topic to talk about here at the Guild of Ents. There wasn't anything written about them, like there wasn't much written on Tom Bombadil. We could think of a reasonable solution to what happened to them...?

I myself think that they went east of the Anduin and founded Ithilien then they were driven south and forgoten. Thats probly why not much was written!

[YayGollum]

Well, I just tossed in three explanations. You don't think that any of them make any sense? Or did you just miss them? *sniff*

[greypilgrim]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Why ask a question if you don't want an answer? Anyways, about the Entwives, that's just craziness. I doubt that Entwives lived anwhere near Rivendell. They either went way to the east where they were forgotten like the blue wizards, into the Old Forest where they became scary trees controlled by Old Man Willow, or way to the east back when that huge chunk of Middle Earth got sunk.
all 3 good theories... but why couldn't they have been at Rivendell? It was the last resting place west of the Misty Mountains...they may have been "resting" there. But then again, Elrond would know and, he probably would have said something to Fangorn (I mean Treebeard). Why Ithilien? They would not be forgotten. And who had driven them away? I don't get it! A mystery! I think the old forest is a great explanation (if explanation is needed regarding the entwives) of "where" the entwives were at. other possibilitiy:
-The Shire. For some reason, I think the Shire is some kindof "special place" in the LoTR books. Don't know why though...ANYWAYS:

I think those trees Sam planted at the end of the book had something to do with the "passing" of the ents. like a new home for a new kind of tree that didn't talk and stuff. yeah:rolleyes: that could be connected to ents somehow maybe...

[BlackCaptain]

Well it wouldnt be Rivendell because Treebeard said in the book that they went east of the Anduin;)

[BlackCaptain]

Goodbye Greypilgrim! It was fun craig!

[YayGollum]

What's that about Rivendell being some last resting place? Last resting place of what? Is it not possible to rest anwhere else west of the Misty Mountains? Also, what do the trees the evil sam messed with have anything to do with the Ents? Didn't the Entwives leave just because they were bored and felt like messing around with flowers someplace else? oh well. Anyways, it's still possible for that Treebeard guy to be wrong?

[BlackCaptain]

It very well is. He was wrong in saying the Elves woke them up. Yavanna created them

[YayGollum]

Oh? Is it not possible for both to have happened? Yavanna made them and the elves woke them up? :confused: sorry for the confusion. It's not like elves waking Ents up means that the elves created them.

[BlackCaptain]

No, I remember reading somewhere in Tolkien's letters that Treebeard did in fact make a mistake when telling of how the Ents first came into being

[Tirmintus]

Hey can I join this place seems fun, and how do you get stuff under your posts.

[BlackCaptain]

Sure you can join! And by get stuff under your posts do you mean how mine says BlackestCaptain and all that stuff? It's a signature. Check out ur profile settings and you can change it to whatever you want

[YayGollum]

I would love to see the quote you're talking about, BlackCaptain person. Anyways, were you thinking that when Treebeard was talking about the elves waking them up, that he meant they were creating them? I don't. I just think that Yavanna lady made them and the elves woke them up. Like the Aule guy made the Dwarves. Someone could have come along to wake them up before Aule did, right?

[Flame of Anor]

But still, wouldn't Ílúvatar have made it so that the Ents would only wake up after the Elves? Because if the Ents woke up first, they would be the first born and the elves wouldn't.

-Flame

[BlackCaptain]

Yes, the Ents were created by Yavvanna after the Elves awoke. Did I send mixed signals?

[YayGollum]

Got it. No answers for questions. Always helpful. :rolleyes: oh well. Let me see here. Why do you think that Treebeard was talking about the elves creating Ents? I don't remember reading that.

[BlackCaptain]

He said something like 'when the Elves first awoke us' which is not true. Tolkien even said in his letters that Treebeard was wrong. Go figure

[YayGollum]

Ah. Got it. The way you kept talking about it made me think that you were saying that Treebeard was thinking that the elves created them. Silly me. oh well. Got it. So no elf ever woke up any Ent. I wonder why Treebeard said that. oh well. New topic?

[BlackCaptain]

I think so...

-----------

What did the movie change, edit, or take out that was possitive?

---------

[YayGollum]

The whole thing about Aragorn's sword. Boring. No need for it. No scary types hanging out in Bree that indicate Saruman's influence. No need for that. Probably more. I can't think of anything right now. Whoops! I have a lot of things that I hate.

[BlackCaptain]

I myself think that the idea to take out Tom Bombadil was a good one. He doesnt advance the plot. The only thing that makes me reallly mad about them taking it out though is that they took him out to make room for the whole Arwen thing.

[YayGollum]

Ack! Now you're tossing negative thingses in there. That's pure evil. :rolleyes: oh well. Now I have to think again. I like that the fact that they didn't make Gandalf look as cool as he did in the books. I hate that character and it's cool that he doesn't get as many movie fans as he would have if he was just like he was in the book.

[BlackCaptain]

Well I kindof see where PJ was coming from by getting rid of him. But then again what would i know?!

[BlackCaptain]

Hmm... Obviously we need a new topic...

-----------

Who was your all time favorite character In all of Tolkien's works besides a character that may be represented by your username? Why? Lets have some detailed 'why's' people!

-----------

[omnipotent_elf]

Treebeard. He was an ent, and that is something i really liked about tolkiens works. Also, he seemed pure, and respected member of the ents. He seemed wise. All characteristics import in my liking of a character.

[YayGollum]

Argh! I can't talk about my real favorite character just because he's in my name? oh well. Let me see here. Okay. Smeagol is my favorite, then. :D No, I guess he wouldn't count since he's in the same body. How's about Thorin? That guy was cool. Or maybe Feanor. They were both achingly proud of themselves and achingly stubborn. just like me. Maybe Mim, though. Well, I know more about the other two. Okay, I'll go with Feanor since more people hate him.

[Elbereth]

You know when I think about it...I can't really say I have a favorite. There are just too many great characters to choose from in Tolkien's works.

For that matter, I wouldn't even say that Elbereth is my favorite character...although I do like her character alot. I chose the name because it was so close to my name...and it was one of the few Tolkien names I could pronouce.

I would do have a top ten favorite character list...(in no particular order). Just don't be surprised that most of them are female...they are just much easier for me to identify with...that's all.

*Galadriel - she is wise and fair and powerful (you have to respect that)...and I identify with her conflict...wanting to gain more power for the betterment of her people.

*Eowyn - She is tough, real, and she can do things as well if not better than men...(yay! for girl power!)

*Elbereth - she is wise, all seeing, all hearing, and truly compasionate. And even though she is very powerful...you get the sense that she is very humble about her powers. (and if you don't see that...then I guess it is just me...)

*Melian - Wise, powerful, and thoughtful...she is able to see what should be done...but she never tries to push her wisdom on anyone...even if her counsel should be listened to...but hardly ever is...(stupid men!)

*Tulkas - Super powerful, high spirited, and really enjoys what he does. (I love the part about his laughing as fights) And his sense of doing good is very admirable.

*Gandalf - Kind but moody, wise but not infallable. He was committed to his cause and continued on with spirit, regardless of all adversity. And you gotta love a wizard with a good sense of humor.

*Merry - Mischievious and funloving, he was a hobbit in the truest sense. However, what he lacked in brute strength...he made up in loyalty and heart. (I also like that fact that behind the goofiness, he was pretty smart about the things he cared about being smart about. ex/pipeweed, maps...and in that respect, he wasn't a complete goof like Pippin was.)

*Luthien - A woman best known for her beauty and grace, Luthien also had a passion and bravery that is unmatched by most in the Silmarillion. And as a daughter of Melian, her power was indeed very great. You have to respect a woman for being able to take on the mighty Melkor, unscathed.

*Gollum/Smeagol - Poor Smeagol indeed...he was so misunderstood, a victim of the power of the ring. And although one side of him wanted to do good...and be at peace and eat his nice fishies....the other side kept him distrusting and cunning, and paranoid...isolated from the outside world...ultimately keeping him from ever finding peace. I don't even think that he was even happy with his precious...because even with it...he was paranoid that someone would take it...so really there would be no happy ending for Gollum, regardless of whether he got his ring or not. Perhaps, falling into the pit was best for him...because that way, he could finally find peace.

* Turin - Also another misunderstood character, a victim of Melkor's curse. His story is reminiscent of Aedipus Rex...a poor soul whose actions are fated to end badly, regardless of his desire to do good. He is one of my favorite heroes of Middle Earth, simply because his story is so tragic and exciting.

[YayGollum]

We're not supposed to be criticising choices, are we? :( :confused: :rolleyes:

[Elbereth]

No we are not YayG...and frankly if you did, I wouldn't care what you thought...this is my opinion, it is not going to change because someone disagrees with it.

[YayGollum]

*holds his hands up mockingly defensively* Uh, huh. What makes you think my criticism would be tossed around just to change your opinion? It's not. It's just my view on what you had to say. Nothing wrong with that. Besides the fact that you could care less to read the thing.

[Elbereth]

Well, I didn't mean to offend by that statement. And it certainly wasn't meant to attack...I was just stating a position...nothing more.

But I certainly would read your opinions...although I do not think it would sway my opinion...esp on such a minor subject as ...who is your favorite character...I don't think such a subject really needs to have any debate involved.

[BlackCaptain]

Of course not! Never debate! Discuss! Anyhoo, I myself like Elwë/Elu alot. He's just so cool. Haha. And Ancalagon

[YayGollum]

Ah. Got it. Discuss. Why do you like that boring elf or that boring dragon? I see no reasons. *checks to see if he put his own reasons* Okay. This scary Elbereth person put reasons. I don't get most of them, but oh well.

[BlackCaptain]

I was short on time... sorry:

Thingol - What did he ever do wrong? Besides send Beren on that quest that destroyed the greatest Elven kingdom in ME, save possibly Gondolin. But that was destiny, so cmon... you gotta go easy on him.

Ancalagon - So eerie and cool! And he's "The Black". How cool is that?! I just can't think of anyone cooler.

Once again, short of time... Must go learn...

[YayGollum]

What did that Thingol guy ever do wrong? He got everyone mad at the poor Dwarves. oh well. Also, he never paid attention to the Melian lady. He should have. He doesn't seem to me to be the smartest or most interesting guy of all time. sorry about that. Anyways, Oh. You only like the Ancalagon guy because you think he looks scarily cool. Got it. I must be crazy for loving a character for their achingly cool and original personality.

[BlackCaptain]

I guess I just like his character. He was a proud and distinguishable King of the Sindar for a tremendously long time. He was pretty cool.

[BlackCaptain]

Well since this seems to be a very hot debate in the LOTR section, why not discuss it here?:

---------------

What do you think caused the Balrog to awake?

---------------

[Tirmintus]

Hey can I join I'm from the other one at the other place (I'm Samuro) I hate that name.

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
Well since this seems to be a very hot debate in the LOTR section, why not discuss it here?:

---------------

What do you think caused the Balrog to awake?

---------------

My opinion is that is was the digging of the Dwarves that caused it.

[YayGollum]

Yeah, isn't that what the bookses say? I'm not a huge expert. What other views are there?

[BlackCaptain]

Sorry! I mean what caused the Balrog to reawake when the Fellowship entered it...

[Tirmintus]

I thought it awoke when Sauron cam back after a while when he came back or it could have been the dwarves. I know it was one of those.

[BlackCaptain]

Well I myself believe in chain reactions...

Pippin dropped the stone...

Alerted the Orcs...

All the comotion woke the Balrog up!

[Arvedui]

And I believe that it didn't go to sleep again after the dwarves woke it up in the first place.

[Tirmintus]

It's all a mystery, if only JRR Tolkien was still here he would know what woke it up. I don't really know if Christopher Tolkien would know. I am going to give him a letter to see if he knows. I doubt I could get to him though. Anybody want to help me do it?

[BlackCaptain]

What would you need help with? I think it'd be cool to ask him some questions. I've always wanted to know though... Do Balrogs have wings?! It's so hard!

[Elbereth]

Here's my theory...I believe that some Balrogs have wings...while some do not. It really all depends on which Balrog you talking about.

As for the Balrog in Moria...I believe he had wings.

[YayGollum]

I haven't read that Fellowship Of The Ring book in a while. oh well. This crazy person sounds like she knows what she's talking about. Doobedoobedoo...

[EllethBronwe]

I'm pretty sure in the book it had wings I know in the video game it did and that was basically based on the book not the movie. (FotR that is.)

[BlackCaptain]

Well yes, but you can't count on any major entertainment company to be exactly right, even if they are based on the books. There is never any proof, or writings that Balrogs had wings, and frankly, I just think the seed was planted in our head that they did have wings because of Tolkiens analogy that "It's wings were spread from wall to wall". It is really it's wings of shadow... That he mentioins just the sentance before. I don't think there is any reason to think that they had wings...

[Marah Seph]

I was just added to this guild. Thank you Captain! And really, does it matter a whole lot if they had wings or not? I have a question I'd like to ask about these Balrogs, do they all live underground, or was the one in FOTR just banished there?

[Flame of Anor]

Originally posted by Marah Seph
I was just added to this guild. Thank you Captain! And really, does it matter a whole lot if they had wings or not? I have a question I'd like to ask about these Balrogs, do they all live underground, or was the one in FOTR just banished there? Well, the Balrogs of Morgoth would come out and fight people or battles on Morgoth's behalf. I would say that when they were not fighting for him they would lie in wait underground somewhere.

Now as for the Flame of Udun that Gandalf the Grey fought, I believe that he was sealed underground when the Valar changed the shape of Beleriand. Then the Dwarves came along and in theird delving they came upon his resting place and woke him up.

As to the Wings:
"The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm." J.R.R. Tolkien LOTR, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm Black Captain is correct, it is hard to say whether or not the silly thing did or did not have wings. I suppose we shall never know.

-Flame

[Marah Seph]

Going upon your theory that the Balrogs would wait underground, it wouldn't make too much sense for them to have wings now would it?

[Flame of Anor]

Quite true, that is unless they like flying around caverns in the deepest parts of the earth. I could be that they were in style back then. just a thought.

-Flame

[Marah Seph]

Flying around in the depths of the earth. Is this like Journey to the center of the earth where it was hollow?

[Flame of Anor]

Oh my, now that was one corny movie. yikes. Well, i didn't mean that deep. sort of like Carles Bad Caverns.

-Flame

[YayGollum]

Well, now that someone stuck the quote from the book, I'd have to say ---> Ack! It should be obvious that the thing had wingses! The thing is made of fire and smoke. If the smoke looks like wings, then the thing has wings. Asking if the thing has wings is just like asking if it has arms. The arms are made out of fire and smoke. If you're wondering if you should count things like that as real, I'd call you crazy. Anyways, why toss the guild to someone else? You'd want to give up this early?

[Tirmintus]

I think the guild is doing good! I don't think it is slipping. How is it slipping? Is it slipping out of your hands, toes etc. etc?

[BlackCaptain]

Oh... Haha... Actualy I was very very tired when I wrote that... I saw Flame of Anor mention something like Carles Bad Caverns and had no idea what he was talking about. I was just like... "I'm too tired to even comprehend what that means... How'd we start talking about that? Oh man something must be going wrong..."

All a fluke... I'm off to delete that post... I'll stay awake now!

[Tirmintus]

Okay, good. I started the Silmarillion finally yesterday. Don't laugh!

[BlackCaptain]

Dude... you better be ready for some good long hard reading. It's tough. It took me 2 tries before I understood everything that was happening...

[YayGollum]

Ack! Argh! Why is it hard for so many people to understand that book? It's not confusing. It's a bunch of adventures. A book of mythology. What's so confusing about that?

[Flame of Anor]

We talking about the Sil now? I personally loved it. I have only read it once, but am planning on reading it again after i finish the trillogy again. It isn't because it is hard reading, but more that there is so much information there it can be overwhelming at times.

-Flame

[YayGollum]

Oh. Got it. So people understand everything, but they just get a little overwhelmed with all of the nameses? Makes sense. Solution ---> Don't even worry about it. Read it for the entertainment value. You don't have to remember which boring elf you're reading about at the time or where he is or anything. Have fun with the story he's in. You will remember the names of the coolest characters. Feanor, Eol, Mim, Ungoliant, probably others. :rolleyes:

[Arvedui]

I second YayG:
Just enjoy it. Characters and places will come back when you have read it a couple of times.
Silmarillion is the best of Tolkiens works. IMO......

[BlackCaptain]

Ah the Silmarillion... Arda in a nutshell. It's just confusing for me cuz once you get far into it you've gotta remember all the names of all the descendants of this house of 4 families and stuff. Of course I understand it... but it took me a second try when I was first halfway thru...

[Tirmintus]

I just started the Silmarillion so I don't know much of what yall are saying.

[YayGollum]

What we are saying ---> Don't sweat the names. Enjoy the stories. You'll pick up the important names. The stories are good. Why let a little unnecessary confusion mess them up?

[BlackCaptain]

Ah Yay, it surprises me how Entish you can be sometimes....:rolleyes: :D ;)

[Flame of Anor]

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
Ah Yay, it surprises me how Entish you can be sometimes....:rolleyes: :D ;) Is that in response to how wordy he can be or just that he fits very well in the forum.?;) :D

-Flame

[BlackCaptain]

Well he that just sounded like something Fangorn would say! It surprised me! Although I don't know why... Haha.

Does anyone have any ideas as to the next topic?

[YayGollum]

Next topic (since I'm not very interesting) ---> Anybody know anything about the bits of Tolkien's world that aren't so famously in all kinds of mapses? As in ---> the geography of the far north, east, south, or maybe whatever other continents there are.

[BlackCaptain]

Well I know that all of ME is shaped kind of like ... ummm... put ur thumbs together.... now put ur pointer fingers together along with ur thumbs. Look kind of like a hot dog bun? Now tilt it about 45 degrees to the right so that your right arm is lower. That's what ME is shaped like in general I'm pretty sure. And Aman is identical to ME.

Then there was the Wars of Wrath and everything got thrown out of whack.

But then I also remember seeing another huge map where Harad was different and I just don't know. I got to go cuz I'm pressed for time... I'll continue later!

[BlackCaptain]

Oi! Where have we been?

Well I'm reviving this here... Hope we all come back...
What to talk about now? Let's have an Entmoot! What to discuss what to discuss...

Yay... You look somewhat Orcish to me... Now we will have an entmoot over Yay's Orcishness or Un-Orcishness! Hurray!

[Arvedui]

He's Orcish, all right.
Full of Orcishness if you ask me.:D

Nah, Yay is a good guy, always standing up for the poor unlucky Smeagol. Keep at it, YayG.;)

[YayGollum]

What are you people talking about? I don't look anything like an orc. Maybe you're just talking about my achingly cool avatar that's actually the coolest picture of Gollum I've ever run into? oh well. No, the Maedhros person has posted a picture of my achingly beautiful self towards the middle of the fourth or fifth page of that photo album thread. Anyways, of course I shall continue to defend the little guy in most ways that I can. Doobedoobedoo...so noone can help me out with my last question?

[BlackCaptain]

Try getting UT and BolT 1 and 2. I'm sure they have lots of crazy maps in there of Tolkien's earlier thoughts and such... If not I'm sure it's not too important.

[YayGollum]

I already have all of those bookses and they don't help. At least with actual pictures. I haven't read them all yet. oh well. Anyways, no, it's not especially important. just wondering. Thought I'd be original and toss an RPG in some area that isn't talked about too much. Nevermind. Doobedoobedoo...thanks for the answers to the question about my picture. :rolleyes:

[BlackCaptain]

Iduno what to tell you... Just try all the HoMe books... I remember seeing a map somewhere... Go to a bookstore and look through all the Tolkien guides and HoMe books. You should find something...

[YayGollum]

Uh, huh. I've looked at most of the History Of Middle Earth bookses, but oh well. Doobedoobedoo...not much activity here, people. That's not good. Or are we just being slow like Ents? I have no idea. oh well.

[Arvedui]

For your question concerning the maps: Well, I haven't seen any throughout all my reading, but of course, there are still quite a few books I haven't read.:( I need to take some time off from this forum, and get reading.;) )

About your avatar: No! You don't look orcish. You don't even act orcish.

For some action in this Guild, how about this one:

"Did the Valar fulfill the task given to them from Eru?"

From The Silmarillion: Valaquenta:
Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of time; and it was their task to acheive it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen.

Too heavy for this Guild?

[YayGollum]

Too heavy? Ick. No. Anyways, how can you achieve the world? Looks like the quote says that's what they were supposed to do. Also, fulfilling the vision they got to see? I thought that they got to see what it looked like in the very beginning. What did they have to fulfill? It was already like that.

[Arvedui]

Ah, yes. But did they really?
Did they care for the whole of Arda, or just Valinor?
Seems to me that they cared a little bit too much for their own homestead, and too little for the rest of the world.

Why bring all the Elves to valinor?
Why grieving so much for the loss of the Two Trees, when they in fact didn't bring light to much more than Valinor? How about the rest of Arda?
How much did they care for Men, or Hobbits? they didn't even send an emmisary to meet them...

I could go on and on.

[YayGollum]

Did they really what? I asked you questions. oh well. Got it. New questions.

Looks like they were big fans of everything in the beginning. When Mel started messing things up, they moved to the only place that wasn't messed up. Would you like to stay in a messed up place when it's easy to move to a much better place?

They brought the elves to their place because they weren't fans of letting these people they'd been looking forward to meet have to hang out in the messed up place.

They grieved for the trees because they liked them, of course. They wouldn't say ---> "Oh, no! My beautiful lamp has been destroyed! The room at the other end of the house won't be lighted any more!" No, they would care more about the fact that it was an achingly cool lamp and it's not around anymore.

They didn't mess around with other races because they were really far away and Mel was still around. By the time they didn't have to deal with Mel anymore, the other races were already nice and developed and independent.

[BlackCaptain]

...:eek: ...

What he said...:D
Seriously though... ME is the world of Men, Aman is the world of Elves. The Valar love the elves to death, and could care less about what the Great Sea has across it: Men. That's why I'm not too big a fan of the Valar I guese...

[YayGollum]

Why do people decide that the Valar don't care about humans just because they don't mess with them too much? It is possible to care about something and not mess with it all the time. Didn't they know that Eru was a big fan of messing with the humans himself? I forget. Maybe I made that up.

[Flame of Anor]

hey guys, i just wanted to let you know that i am leaving town and will most likely not be posting anytime soon in the next 4 weeks. cya later.

[BlackCaptain]

Have fun! Peace...

Yay, I think they didn't care because the Valar kept on begging and begging the Elves to come to Aman, which means they wanted them to be in peace, which means they loved them lots. The Valar just left the Men in ME (A place on the brink of destruction) not caring whether they lost the war or not. Why don't they care? Because what did they do to help?

Ohh.. wiat... nevermind... They sent the Istari. AGH! Yay you are always right for some strange strange reason... :eek: :confused:

[YayGollum]

Well, I would have forgotten about that anyways. :rolleyes: oh well. I would have kept saying things like ---> What time are you talking about when Middle Earth was on some brink of destruction? What war are you mentioning? just wondering what I'm supposed to be talking about. You can see that the Valar types weren't always helping out the elves every second. The humans weren't messed with in that music thing at the beginning. Why should the Valar types help out when they don't have to? Humans were made to do their own thing and the Valar types knew that.

[BlackCaptain]

Why should they help men out when they don't have to? The same reason they helped Elves out.

[YayGollum]

You never answered my questions. oh well. I'll be nice and pay attention to you, though. Let me see here. The situations were different for elves and humans. That should be obvious. I already said that the humans were really far away and Mel was still around. By the time they didn't have to deal with Mel anymore, the other races were already nice and developed and independent. Things were better when the elves first showed up. There was no need to help the humans out by the time they were able to. But then, you could say that they were obviously able to defeat Mel and help the humans out if they especially wanted to. oh well. They didn't. They only decided to show up when people came to beg. Before that, they were mostly letting people fend for themselves. sorry about that. Not my fault.

[BlackCaptain]

I'm sorry what were your questions again? I get lost in all of your talking that I forget the questions I guess... haha

[YayGollum]

Questions that weren't answered *sniff* ---> What time are you talking about when Middle Earth was on some brink of destruction? What war are you mentioning? just wondering what I'm supposed to be talking about.

I asked the Arvedui person things, but it doesn't look like that one feels like paying attention, either. *bawls* :rolleyes:

[BlackCaptain]

The War of the Ring;) :D

[YayGollum]

Ah. Got it. just wondering. You proved yourself wrong when you were talking about it. oh well. Doobedoobedoo...Where'd that Arvedui person get to? Should we grab another subject, or is there some part of it that I forgot to address?

[BlackCaptain]

Prooved myself wrong? Something I forgot to adress? Oh well... No clue what we're talking about... Might as well think of a new topic.

Why do you all think that the Ringwraith started leaving just as soon as Frodo was about to put on the Ring in the chapter Three is Company? That cool scene in the movie where they hide under the tree...

[YayGollum]

Is that a huge deal? I'd say it was because he gave up. He was looking for the nasssty hobbitses and couldn't find them, so he decided to leave. It was just a coincidence that the superly boring Frodo was just about to stick poor Smeagol's security blanket on.

[Tirmintus]

Stupid Ringwraiths they probaly don't have a brain they should have looked under the tree and........KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILLL KILL KILL. The hobbits need to be extinct, or they should be by now.

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by YayGollum
I asked the Arvedui person things, but it doesn't look like that one feels like paying attention, either. *bawls* :rolleyes:
Sorry about that, YayG. I lost my connection a week ago, and haven't been on since. I'll look into your questions, and hopefully answer them. OK?

[YayGollum]

I agree with the Tirmintus person. But then, it seems like nasssty hobbitses are still around because of what that Tolkien guy said in that The Hobbit book. Anyways, I put that little rolling eyed dude after that quote of mine to show that I wasn't serious about it, Arvedui person. People always have good excuses, right? :rolleyes:

[Arvedui]

I know, Yay. I saw that rolleyes-figure, and took it for what it was. But still, I think that as long as you have asked a few questions, then they should be answered, if it is possible.

[YayGollum]

Got it. Yay for that. Should I run around and try to find my old questions, or should we just forget about it and move on to something else? *sniff* :rolleyes:

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Did they really what? I asked you questions.
I tried to figure out which of your questions was meant for me. Now I am not sure;)
I suppose this is the one, as the others seemed to be aimed directly at BlackCaptain.

The question was 'Did they really fulfill their task?'

But as we are already well into another topic, I think it will only mess up the Guild if I restart that Vala-thing now. If you want, I can PM you about it?

[YayGollum]

Well, here were the questions that you never answered. It's just on the page before this. Not a huge deal. Maybe I should have copied more. oh well. Why come up with a new topic when this one is just fine? ---> How can you achieve the world? Looks like the quote says that's what they were supposed to do. Also, fulfilling the vision they got to see? I thought that they got to see what it looked like in the very beginning. What did they have to fulfill? It was already like that.

[Arvedui]

Oh, yes. They definately laboured long and hard to fulfil the vision of their music, and also they had to work hard to repair what Mel destroyed.

But the way I see it, they withdrew more and more to Valinor, and abandoned the rest of Arda. That is why I am of the opinion that they did not do what they were supposed to, at least most of them. Ulmo stayed true to the mission assignment.
I think there are evidence to support my views:
- Why did they have to bring the Elves to Valinor, instead of taking care of them all over Arda?
- How much did they care for those that were unwilling to go to Valinor?
- After the Trees were destroyed, they had very little care for Middle-earth. With the exeption of Ulmo.
- Where were the Valar when Men entered Arda?

and so on.

As you see, I think that the fulfilment of the World, as you call it, doesn't stop when it was made. Their task continued, but the Valar withdrew from the World, and Evil was allowed to prosper.
Hope that answers your questions?

[YayGollum]

Ah. Got it. I don't remember reading that it was their job to care for anything. I was just thinking that they were being nice. Nothing was required, was it? To answer your questions --->

They didn't have to. They were being nice. They felt like it. Not a huge deal.

Doesn't look like they messed with those people too much. They chose not to go.

Making those trees was caring for the Arda place? I never thought that. I just thought they were having fun with creating crazy things. Anyways, were they required to help at all?

That Valinor place, as far as I know. just because you don't think they were being very nice doesn't mean that they had to.

[BlackCaptain]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Making those trees was caring for the Arda place? I never thought that. I just thought they were having fun with creating crazy things. Anyways, were they required to help at all?

No... if the Valar wouldnt have done something all the earth would have been covered in darkness... making the Valar's job a failure. I dont' have any quotes right now (im far too lazy) but im sure there's some super powerfull moving quote about why and when Yavanna made the trees

[YayGollum]

How would the earth getting covered in darkness make their job a failure? I just don't remember seeing anything that said they had a job. I thought they were just being nice. Maybe I'm just crazy. oh well. Sure, it sounds sensible to me to expect the big and scary and powerful Valar types to care for their creation, but that doesn't mean that they had to.

[Flame of Anor]

Hi guys, I am back. I will try and read up tomorrow sometime and post. later

[berenmacar]

Howdy
i havent been active at TTF as of late, however i want to become more active and well frankly after searching through the guilds i think this one is the best So i humbly request permission to join.

[BlackCaptain]

I'm honored by the 'I think this one is best' statement! You're in! Any interesting topics or discussions have you?

[BlackCaptain]

Hmm.... ok....

Any Entish opinions on the LotR movies? Critisisms? Praisings? Rantings? Opinions?

[YayGollum]

Huh. The movies. Since when does anyone talk to moths? And since when do moths socialize with giant eagles? Rivendell looked too stuffy and uncomfortable. Lothlorien was very messed up. The Ents were dumbed down. Theoden's personality was transplanted in favor of a less cool person's. Gollum's lips and ears were bloated. They didn't show enough Gollum and evil sam interaction enough for me. I wanted more people to despise the evil sam like I do for being so evil to poor Smeagol. I loved the part where they were in front of that black gate thing and the evil sam almost died. It was so close! oh well.