Judgement of the Sauron's Wisdom debate

[Nóm]

Here anyone can post a judgement or comments on the debate "Sauron's Wisdom".

The debate is here. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=11003)

I will be posting a judgement, so will Anamatar from the Guild of Tolkienology. The results of our judgements along with the poll which will be open for 7 days, will decide which team won the debate.

[Nóm]

Both teams did a good job of arguing against the other, and I was especially impressed with baragund's posts.

What made the debate for me was Team B's suggestion that even had Gollum betrayed Sauron and try to keep the Ring for himself, Sauron could still get the ring... though I don't entirely agree with the idea that Gollum would have been under Sauron's command, it doesn't matter too much since Team A didn't argue this. I would also like to have seen team A argue against Team B's suggestion that Sauron is better off having Gollum reclaim the Ring, than having Aragorn, Gandalf or anyone else claim it.

I also think the so called rescue of Gollum from Mirkwood could have been argued against.

I judge that Team B was most convincing. We see good arguements from team A for the idea that Sauron should have paid more attention to these hobbits, but the arguements that Sauron was unwise because he released the death of him did not convince me. Wording of the question is ment to be used to one's advantage since it was worded that way for a reason, and should be answered according to how it is worded.

And what's the deal?... everytime there is a debate here someone changes their name? :D

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Nóm
And what's the deal?... everytime there is a debate here someone changes their name? :D

Yes, it works well to confuse the judges.:D

though I don't entirely agree with the idea that Gollum would have been under Sauron's command

IMO, Hobbits were able to resist the Ring much better and for a longer period than the other races of Middle Earth. However, I don't believe that they could resist it forever, despite their indomitable spirits - slowly but surely they would have fallen under Sauron's influence.

I would also like to have seen team A argue against Team B's suggestion that Sauron is better off having Gollum reclaim the Ring, than having Aragorn, Gandalf or anyone else claim it.

I'd like to hear your counter arguement for this Nóm.;)

[Nóm]

I'd like to hear your counter arguement for this Nóm.;)
Does the wink mean that you don't mean it?

If not, then I suppose you can hear it. I'm not going to do it right now though.

and as for this:
IMO, Hobbits were able to resist the Ring much better and for a longer period than the other races of Middle Earth. However, I don't believe that they could resist it forever, despite their indomitable spirits - slowly but surely they would have fallen under Sauron's influence.

He had fallen under the Ring's influence, say Sauron and the Ring are one all you want, but given what Tolkien has said in his letters I think Gollum would have eventually tried to use the Ring to his own liking and this would include keeping it from Sauron.

If you'd like we can debate this topic, you and I.

[baragund]

Nom, thanks for your kind assessment of this debate. Frankly, I would have been surprised if you declared BlackCaptain and I the winner. Ithrynluin is an outstanding debater and his command of Tolkien's writings is excellent.

That tapping sound you might be hearing right now is the sound of me banging my head on my computer monitor! I was intrigued by your remark in your previous post that Gollum's rescue from Mirkwood could have been argued against, so I pulled out my copy of UT and scanned through The Hunt for the Ring again. As it turned out, Gollum wasn't rescued . Sauron intended to kill or recapture Gollum, and he happened to escape during the confusion of Sauron's attack on Thranduil. Oh well! I promise if I ever get tapped for an inter-guild debate, I promise to do my homework a little better!

Ithrynluin, my complements again on a great debate. I believe you had a much better handle on the thrust of the question, and you did a better job of spreading out your argument to a number of different points. BlackCaptian and I put all of our eggs in one or two baskets.

[Nóm]

You're welcomed, baragund.

As for this:
I was intrigued by your remark in your previous post that Gollum's rescue from Mirkwood could have been argued against, so I pulled out my copy of UT and scanned through The Hunt for the Ring again. As it turned out, Gollum wasn't rescued . Sauron intended to kill or recapture Gollum, and he happened to escape during the confusion of Sauron's attack on Thranduil.
I am surprised too. I have not read that myself. I was thinking it could have been argued against anyhow... since an attack on Thranduil at that time was likely, Gollum aside. I seriously need to finish UT.

So, even if I had argued on your side, I might have done so with speculations without bothering to look in UT. Would have been a big miss! Overall I think you did good with homework, considering some people do not do homework for debates... I admit, incase anyone hadn't noticed, that I don't reseach well for debates.

[BlackCaptain]

I declare Ithrynluin the greatest debater of all time. I was just not paying any attention to all of the question. Rookie mistake :rolleyes:

[Ithrynluin]

BlackCaptain, LOL! I can't say I'm not flattered (thanks!;) ), but even within the confines of our guild there are some who could easily best me in a debate, not to mention other marvellous debaters from other guilds.:)

Baragund and BlackCaptain, you both did very well IMO, as did my teammate Elendil3119, and I thank you all for a very pleasant and challenging debate. I'm sure we all learned from this debate, and that's what matters.

Last but certainly not least, thanks to Nóm for setting up this debate and taking the time to judge it.

[Anamatar IV]

As for my judging, you guys, I'm sorry for the hold up. I found out about my judging role, started reading the debate, and these last few days I've been forgetting to check this guild what with the gearing up for school. I still have about a page to read in the debate so I'll have my judging up between Wednesday and Friday.:)

[Anamatar IV]

Alright after reading the debate and checking the thread about 30 times to remember which team was which I am ready to judge.

Team A:

I thought they debated very well. There were parts here and there I didn't quite follow but blame it on my 7th grade level education. I'm easily confused.;)

They countered Team b's (B=Elendil and itchy, right?:D) well and provided quotes that clearly helped with their point. What I don't like is people using quotes not related to the debate at hand. Like when trying to prove that the ring is evil people say "Morgoth was evil, too!":rolleyes:

So all in all a good debate with just some minor confusing statements or shaky arguments.

Team B:

Again, debated very well. Their arguments were very much centered around quotes and proof from the text which was good and they countered Team A well. There were a few places, in my opinion, where their arguments could have been easily countered just because they weren't backed up enough.

So, using a pro-con tree (my 7th grade level education again;)) my vote goes to Team B (Elendil and itchy, right?).

Again, great debate you guys.

[BlackCaptain]

Ah oh well... Iv'e learned my lesson:

Look at the entire question next time!

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
Ah oh well... Iv'e learned my lesson:

Look at the entire question next time!

Don't beat yourself up over that, Cap'n!:D I didn't think of it until we were well into the debate, and who can say which side we would have chosen if we were the ones who got to choose our side.

You did very well! :cool:

[BlackCaptain]

Ah thank you... I'm glad to see I did good on my first 'official' debate