Where'z all my Jesus Freaks!??!

[Sarah]

I have a friend who's an atheiest. I was having a bad day, and a different friend said 'cheer up, God loves you.' The atheist said 'no he doesn't I'm an atheist.'

[Beorn]

Originally posted by BranMuffin
Yes, actually. Maybe not our physical selves but the way God sees us. When we accept Christ he steps in for us when God views us so that all he can see is perfection. But the Flesh is what is not perfect and what we battle against always.
So are you saying Jesus "tricks" God by showing him something different. (Now that I've got the serious part aside, my mom told me how she tricked her mother into believing INC on her report card meant incredible instead of incomplete :rolleyes:)

Actually the atheists believe there is no God. And as far as that goes, I don't believe in atheists. When they call him all the time usually derogatory though.[/B]
Well, I'm right here. Believe in me now? I don't call him derogatory names (I know you said usually) because I don't want to step on anyone's toes and because I've no reason to. Why should I if I don't think he exists?

Mike

[Kailita]

Originally posted by Beorn
(Now that I've got the serious part aside, my mom told me how she tricked her mother into believing INC on her report card meant incredible instead of incomplete :rolleyes: )
Though this is completely off topic, that is very clever. I wish I could fool my mom into that, since report cards are coming out soon...*cringes*

BranMuffin doesn't mean that Jesus is "tricking" God into seeing something that isn't. God knows everything; you can't "trick" him. What BranMuffin is saying, I believe, is that Jesus steps in for us as an advocate. Though we've done bad things, Jesus, who is completely perfect, steps in for us and pleads our case, and because of that we are seen as blameless before God.

Out of curiousity, Beorn...as an atheist, how do you view Jesus? Who do you think he was?

[HLGStrider]

So are you saying that in Christ you can become perfect in this life?

I believe with God everything is possible. I don't think it is very likely, however. I also think we have a physical body in this world which ways us down considerably, but if God says "Be thou perfect" and He also says that anything is possible with Him and He is with me. . .Maybe.



So are you saying Jesus "tricks" God by showing him something different.

No, but we are so overshadowed by Jesus, the good within us, that as far as God is concerned, he is no longer dealing with imperfect humans but his son, Christ. It's no longer I that livith, but Christ that livith in me (I'm using the ith's so you know I am quoting scripture and not just making this up. I can't remember the entire verse, but I think it is in Galations). It isn't a matter of trickery. God knows that we are still "involved," but since he loved us in the first place that isn't a huge problem.

Athelas, why do you believe God made you and what sort of God do you believe in?

I'm asking because you seemed to believe in a highly pantheistic God (Zen type of thing). Generally they do not believe in a creator/personality God, but in a sort of all powerful force or something like that. You seem to be describing a personality, however. I've never known a force with the capability to love.

[Athelas]

That I was made by the Creator is pretty much a given. I am as comfortable referring to the Creator as God or Goddess. I realize that assigning a sex to the creator is just a matter of personal taste. There is one Creator, and different cultures have different names for this being. These different names or "aspects" of the creator could be thought of as different facets of the same diamond. My personal approach to the Creator is in seeing Her as a Goddess who is my lover. Hindu women often see Krishna as the divine lover. Some people are more comfortable seeing her as a divine Mother or Father.

If you were an Angel who worked with recently deceased souls, helping them through the disorienting process of exiting the physical body and entering the spiritual plane, you would naturally appear to the person at first as someone trusted and loved. This is not a deception, but a way of helping to comfort and calm the soul until they can steady themselves. The Creator wants to help. A devout Muslim, upon death, will see Allah. *How he reacts to seeing Allah depends upon what's in his heart. The Creator puts on the image that we are most comfortable with. A Christian will see Jesus or Mary, or possibly even a beloved personal saint. A Witch will see the Goddess. A Jew might see Yahweh or Abraham. World mythologys are full of tragic stories of a mortal seeing a God or Goddess in their True Form and being incinerated or worse, i. e. hapless Semele. Every so often, the Creator incarnates on earth; this is called an Avatar.

[LOTRfan2]

Actually, God is a HE. Why do u think that the Bible refers to God a "He" or "Him"??? I think that should be just about the clearest thing in the Bible to anyone.........


Am I off topic?? Thanx 4 moving the Spanish Inquisition stuff, ya'll! MUCH appreciated!!

LOTRfan2

PS-if God was a "she" why aren't women allowed to preach in church, or take on positions as elders in the church?? I'm thinking that if God were a she (And HE isn't!), God would've made it lawful for women to preach, take elder positions, etc...Basically, taking authorititive positions in the church..And no, God's NOT against women......Let's PLEASE not start into that!! Anyhow.....I'll wait for your reply, Athelas.

Thanks for contributing to this thread, everyone!!

[Beorn]

Originally posted by LOTRfan2
Actually, God is a HE. Why do u think that the Bible refers to God a "He" or "Him"??? I think that should be just about the clearest thing in the Bible to anyone.........


Am I off topic?? Thanx 4 moving the Spanish Inquisition stuff, ya'll! MUCH appreciated!!

LOTRfan2

PS-if God was a "she" why aren't women allowed to preach in church, or take on positions as elders in the church?? I'm thinking that if God were a she (And HE isn't!), God would've made it lawful for women to preach, take elder positions, etc...Basically, taking authorititive positions in the church..And no, God's NOT against women......Let's PLEASE not start into that!! Anyhow.....I'll wait for your reply, Athelas.

Thanks for contributing to this thread, everyone!!

If I did believe in God, what would you say if I said he was black?

[Gandalf_White]

Actually LOTRfan I would have to say that God really is and isn't a he. After all Jesus was a "he" and he is part of God. But in the old testament they just regarded God as he because those who wrote the Bible had the idea that men were better than woman. So that was their way of portraying him.

Originally posted by Beorn
If I did believe in God, what would you say if I said he was black?

Well Beorn, Jesus was black!

:D

[Athelas]

in Genesis, the word Elohim is plural

[Gandalf_White]

I can understand that since there are three persons in God. The Father, the Son(Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. Usually people just reffer to God collectively.;)

[BranMuffin]

Originally posted by Gandalf_White
Actually LOTRfan I would have to say that God really is and isn't a he. After all Jesus was a "he" and he is part of God. But in the old testament they just regarded God as he because those who wrote the Bible had the idea that men were better than woman. So that was their way of portraying him. ALSO, GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE THEREFORE- ADAM (A MAN).

[i]Well Beorn, Jesus was black![/B] WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT JESUS WAS BLACK, I MISSED THAT MEMO. HE WAS FROM THE MIDDLE EAST THEREFORE PROBABLY DARKER SKINNED BUT NOT BLACK. BLACKS WERE NOT LOOKED VERY WELL UPON BACK THEN AND WERE NOT JEWISH. THE PICTURES EVERYONE SEES OF JESUS ARE WRONG HE WASN'T PALE WHITE AND DIDN'T HAVE LONG HAIR(HE UPHELD JEWISH TRADITIONS EXCEPT THE ONES HE MODIFIED TO GODS WILL, ONE OF THE TRADITIONS WAS THAT THE MALE JEW WOULD CUT THEIR HAIR ABOUT EVERY 30 DAYS).

[Athelas]

God is not a physical being. Could it possibly be that "our own image" means "like us spiritually?"

Spiritual beings do not need sexual organs because they don't reproduce sexually. Referring to them as he or she is more friendly than "it."

God is not any one race or either sex.

[BranMuffin]

Originally posted by Athelas
Referring to them as he or she is more friendly than "it." I ONLY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD. IF YOU DO NOT THEN YOU PROBABLY DON'T BELONG ON THIS THREAD, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO UPSET PEOPLE THEN DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE PLEASE. NOTICE THE THREAD TITLE, IT IS NOT THE "COME IN AND BASH CHRISTIANS" THREAD. I BELIEVE THIS THREAD WAS FOR CHRISTIANS TO TALK TO EACH OTHER NOT DEFEND OR PROVE OUR BELIEFS.

[Athelas]

IM NOT BASHING CHRISTIANS. MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO READ BACK IN THE THREAD A BIT BEFORE YOU POST SO THAT YOU HAVE A TINY LITTLE NOTION OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. PLEASE TELL US WHAT ABOUT MY POST IS CHRISTIAN BASHING.

[BranMuffin]

I DIDN'T SAY YOU WERE. BUT YOU ARE TRYING TO CHALLENGE OUR BELIEFS BY PUSHING WHAT YOU BELIEVE. I DO NOT WISH TO ARGUE, AND IT SEEMS I HAVE UPSET YOU. I AM SORRY.

[Athelas]

>BUT YOU ARE TRYING TO CHALLENGE OUR BELIEFS BY PUSHING WHAT YOU BELIEVE.<

HOW? EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHAT YOU FIND TO BE A CHALLENGE TO YOUR BELIEFS

[Beorn]

Quit the caps....

Originally posted by Athelas
God is not a physical being. Could it possibly be that "our own image" means "like us spiritually?"

That sounds interesting, could you expand upon it...

[Athelas]

Perhaps god evolved to a point where he found that he was not sufficient unto himself. That something was missing. So he created a world and made a being like himself for company. Loneliness is a very human trait. I think it may be some of this primordial, divine drive to feel completed by another that drives us to search for human love.

Now, for obvious reasons, you wouldn't make a mortal better than yourself, if that is even possible, but you wouldn't want him to be that much less than you, because you want someone that you can talk to, y'know? And because you love your creation, and you hope it loves you, you make it out of the same spiritual energy that you are made of.

[Firawyn]

Hey LOTRfan2,

Could you please pray for me. My family is going through a hard time, my father isn't saved, and though my mother has trained me well, I feel like I am falling away from God. I have alot of energy and ideas that would help my church put I dont feel it is right for me to present them to anyone because I dont think I'm strong enough in Christ or a good enough person to get into the church ministry.

IOU:)

[Eriol]

How can perfection itself evolve?

How can perfection feel any lack?

EDIT: Sabeen, don't lose hope. Your father isn't saved, you say -- that is for God to judge. Who knows what the future reserves for you and your family?

Never lose hope.

[Kailita]

Somewhat. ;)

God is...the most powerful and almighty spiritual being. Jesus was a male. But God is a spiritual being...so much beyond male or female. He created male and female.

Umm...Jesus was Jewish. Yeah. Not black.

Originally posted by Athelas
God is not a physical being. Could it possibly be that "our own image" means "like us spiritually?"

God is not any one race or either sex.
God is definitely not a certain race. And I think he is beyond gender. But I really don't see how what gender God is pertains to salvation or living how He wants us to live, which are ultimately the real issues. (I don't see how any of that post by Athelas was Christian bashing.)

Originally posted by Athelas
Perhaps god evolved to a point where he found that he was not sufficient unto himself. That something was missing. So he created a world and made a being like himself for company. Loneliness is a very human trait. I think it may be some of this primordial, divine drive to feel completed by another that drives us to search for human love.

Now, for obvious reasons, you wouldn't make a mortal better than yourself, if that is even possible, but you wouldn't want him to be that much less than you, because you want someone that you can talk to, y'know? And because you love your creation, and you hope it loves you, you make it out of the same spiritual energy that you are made of.
Perhaps. But I don't think God was ever "missing" anything. He made us not because He needed us...but because He wanted us. Because He wanted someone to love. What Eriol said is very true. If you're perfect, you can't "evolve" any further. You cannot have any "lack".

And as far as God and Allah and the Goddess being all the same under different names...that is certainly not true. For one thing, if you look at the character of each, you will see that they're all completely different, as are their followers.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Just popped in, my first time in the site and the thread, obviously. Just a note for the three previous posts:

God was within Himself, perfection, the Three Persons of the Trinity. Creation came about for the simple reason that God, being perfect Love, wished to share that Love with even more beings - hence, creation. Unfortunately, there was a caveat with creation. In order for God to have beings to love and who would love Him in return, He had to create those beings with free will. For without free will, there can be no love, merely a "programmed response" to a stimuli. However, before creation ever began, God knew that bringing such creatures into being would lead to the Cross. And yet, His love for us (as yet uncreated) sentient beings was such that He accepted that price.

As to the business about who is or isn't "saved": St. Paul speaks in his Epistles of "working out (his) salvation day by day". This means that although one may become "saved", that is no guarantee that one will retain salvation without the daily effort that salvation requires. One may not rest on one's laurels and say, "That's over!" until the race is run.

On the other hand, if you look at Matthew, when Christ speaks of The Last Judgment and the separation of the sheep from the goats, all of the things which lead to both salvation and damnation have abosolutely nothing to do with "theology" and everything to do with being kind and compassionate to our fellow man! Nowhere does it say that one is "saved" or "damned" because one did or did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. Indeed, knowledge of that is not enough as even the demons are aware of that fact and testify thereto throughout the Gospels! So it would seem that we will be judged not so much on what we know or understand about God, but how we treat our fellow man which doesn't take a degree in anything!

Finally, let us look at the very much misused declaration by Christ about not being "judgmental". Many people use that to mean that we should not use our commonsense and recognize when someone is evil or good, corrupt or honest, that we should not speak out against purveyors of wickedness and that to do so makes us "judgmental"! Well, if one believes that, then one can never vote in an election or serve on a jury or pretty much function in society since every day we make some sort of judgment or another about people and what they do or stand for.

But this is not the proper understanding of the meaning of Christ's warning not to judge. He distinctly points out that the measuring rod by which we measure others will be the same rod by which we will be measured and in this he is speaking of our concern about where "the other fellow" stands with God. C. S. Lewis put this in perspective by pointing out that another man's relationship with God was "none of our business". The Pharisees in Christ's day used to go about condemning this one and that one to "hell" because they didn't perform all the proper rituals of Judaism, yet Christ told them that the prostitutes and publicans would get into the Kingdom before they did! Does that mean that Christ approved of prostitutes or those who stole money? Of course not. But what He did mean was that those people who acknowledged that they were sinners and did not concern themselves with anyone's "standing with God" but their own, would find a much more merciful standard used on them when they came before the "Dread Judgment Seat of God". On the other hand, the "holy man" who spent his life holding everyone else up to an impossible standard and dismissing them as "sinners" when they didn't "measure up", would find himself being held to that same impossible standard before God!

The fact is, while we must pray for one another, we cannot, should not and, indeed, must not permit ourselves to contemplate the spiritual condition of anyone other than ourselves. We do not know the inner thoughts of any man, nor what God has in mind for that person. Sometimes the most terrible sinners by one act perhaps at the end of their lives, become blessed saints while the most "saintly" persons have hearts filled with lust and hate which remain hidden from the view of all but themselves and God. Therefore, the only thing we can do is pray for one another and ask for God's mercy on us all. The rest is entirely out of our hands.

[Athelas]

is perfection a static condition? How do we know that god is not constantly growing in ways beyond our comprehension?

Mrs Maggott, that was beautifully written; words not to preach or believe in, but to live your life by. Thank you, and Amen.

"And as far as God and Allah and the Goddess being all the same under different names.."

There is only one Creator. Different cultures and peoples see the creator in different ways, by different names. It is only when you have one stand up and declare that their god alone is real, and everyone else's is false, that wars start and people die., i. e. "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his only prophet." It is only when we step back and see the larger picture that we can overcome these petty prejudices and love on another.

[Eriol]

But now you are associating perfection (God) with time. Static/dynamic is a categorization that only makes sense with time.

God existed before time; He created it. (Do you agree with that?)

So how can he "grow" since he is outside time?

Perfection "growing" would also imply that at the moment T+1 it is "more perfect" than at moment T. And therefore God at the moment T was not really perfect, since it was liable to improvement. Only in the end of time would God reach perfection.

[Mrs. Maggott]

The simple fact is that we cannot "understand" God. He is beyond our comprehension and will remain so forever. He only allows us to see certain aspects of Himself. We are created in His image - male and female - not physically or even in gender, but in rationality. We are the only creatures on the earth able to ask questions, to contemplate things larger than ourselves and to care about the answers. Animals are in fact very intelligent (except my ginger cat Tigger who has the intelligence of alfalfa!). But their entire conciousness is self-contained. They are capable of love, but all that they comprehend is very basic. They are even capable of selfless acts that are not - no matter what the "animal behaviorists" say - simply a matter of instinct. But no animal looks at the sky and contemplates God, though He made them and loves them too (hence, we are commanded to be "good stewards" of creation, a role at which many of us fail abysmally).

No one that I know of follows a faith in which they have serious doubts (and remember, as my little "thought for the day" says, the opposite of faith is not reason, but doubt!). If you really have "faith", then you believe that your "faith" is true. Who would pray to "God the Fairly Competent"? Therefore, when one is "preaching" the faith, one must act as if one believes that it is true. There is no other way to preach it. The problem comes not when one says that "this" or "that" is true, but what one says and does when the other person doesn't believe "this" or "that". People flocked to the early Church even in the face of terrible persecutions and death because the Believers made them want to be there! Not only were miracles performed, but even more importantly, there was LOVE present among the believers. We have the written testimony of pagans and other non-believers as they marveled at the early Christians: "See how they LOVE one another!" was the general observation of the Church.

Can we say that today? Even within individual congregations and parishes, there is more conflict that charity, more jealousy than joy and backbiting has replaced the beatitudes (blessed are the meek....). Is it any wonder why the lost souls of today do not flock to our "Christian" churches? The great Russian monastic saint, Seraphim of Sarov once said, "Save yourself and thousands around you will be saved." By that, he meant that a true Christian (one who loves Christ and endeavors to be obedient to Him), will live such a life of blessing, love and joy that all around him will want to be as he is and do what he does - hence, they too will be saved. You can't "talk" people into anything. If you aren't "walking the walk", it doesn't matter if you are "talking the talk". I could tell you I was tall, slender, beautiful, blond and young and you might even believe me - until you met me! Then you'd know I was a died in the wool liar!

Christ is called the Good Shepherd. You know, the funny thing about sheep is you cannot drive them. You drive cattle from the back, but sheep will only follow the Shepherd. In the same way, you can't "drive" people into the Church, you have to lead them. And the only way you can lead them is to be worthy of being followed.

God bless.

[HLGStrider]

Gosh, gone one day and it goes on forever. . .

I see God as a male in that He has certain male characteristics (though I know male and female characteristics are denied by many people now a days.). Actually, I can only think of one off the top of my head and that is Fatherhood. God is very much a father and will always be a father. That is his main characteristic, I believe.

Athelas, you believe yourself to be divine because God made you. How do you know he made you divine? What's your basis for that? It says he made us in his image but if I draw a picture of myself it is in my image. . .

As for the word Elohim, isn't that the word used to refer to earthly judges over men in the Bible or lesser spirits?

I really don't think the question of God being black is applicable. With the exception of the Jews, races don't really exist for God. The Jew were fostered and led by God for the divine purpose of Christ. He was to come from them. They were to set the stage for him. The bloodline of Christ was carefully planned and guided.

Another thing, Athelas, how can we as humens determine truth? The way it seems to me is either Allah is god or Jehovah is God. Either god is a state of mind (Nirvana) or he isn't. Why do we humans have power over what is and what isn't?

[Athelas]

A muslim was captured during the Crusades. He believed in Allah, but also secretly believed in the god of the Jews. As hot coals were poured down his throat, in his death agony, he cried out to Yahweh to save him. On the other side, he was greeted by Yahweh, but then Allah showed up, making a claim on the man's soul. The two beings staged an impressive battle, and then merged, saying "we are One."

>Another thing, Athelas, how can we as humens determine truth?<

Please let me know when you know for certain.

>The way it seems to me is either Allah is god or Jehovah is God.<

Then god can only be Father, Son, or Holy Ghost, but only one, not all three, right?

I think Mrs Maggott has hit upon the most important points yet posted here.

[Firawyn]

My gosh Mrs.M, can you type! And you have time on your hands, I see!;)

And thanks for the up lift, concerning my father. And for the prayers, everyone. I appreciate it.:)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Sabeen
My gosh Mrs.M, can you type! And you have time on your hands, I see!;)

And thanks for the up lift, concerning my father. And for the prayers, everyone. I appreciate it.:)
It's not so much that I have time as I just don't do unimportant things like cleaning and cooking and gardening and laundry and, well, you know. However, I do feed the animals (and my son) and I do have to type Workers Compensation cases.....aaaarrrgggghhhhhhhh - and you thought that Sauron was evil........

Anyway, I shall pray for you and your family. Love your dad with all your heart (and your mom too). Interestingly enough, the first of the Ten Commandmants that do not deal with man's relationship with God is the 4th Commandmand, and that one says, "Honor Thy Mother and Thy Father that it will go well with Thee in the land." In other words, God believed this to be more important than all the "thou shalt nots" - murder, theft, perjury, envy etc. And when He says to "honor" your parents, He doesn't mean that you must necessarily "love" them in the way that most of us consider that word. Many people have abusive parents, drunks, drug addicts, hurtful people who make their children's lives a misery. Nonetheless, God says that we are to "honor" them which means that we are to acknowledge that they gave us life in partnership with God Himself who gives all of us life. For if we do not foresake all bitterness and hatred for our parents, the ones who suffer for this is not our parents, but ourselves. How can we know this is true? Think about it: most abusive parents were abused children; most drunks, the children of drunkards and so forth. Only by forgiving and "honoring" our parents - whatever their failings - can we be released from pain and the baggage of hatred and go on and be good parents to our own children.

"...so that it shall go well with you in the land." All of civilization is built upon the family. When the family is attacked, the underpinnings of society itself are attacked. God knew (since He created us) that only with strong families can we build strong socieites and only by respecting and "honoring" our parents and their parents can we hope to be respected and honored by our own children. Far too many people want to create huge, overarching solutions for the problems of life when in fact, those problems can only be addressed one individual, one life situation, one tragedy, one injustice at a time. Look at Christ! He was a 1st century Essene Rabbi living in the armpit of the world, seen and heard by a mere handful of people. He wrote nothing, He conquered nothing, He didn't even get the majority of very people He came specifically to save to believe in Him. He was born in obscurity and He died in obscurity as a felon, naked and hanged on a tree ("cursed is every man who is hanged on a tree", was the old saying). If God Himself chose to address the ills and sins of the world in such a way, why do we feel it is necessary for us to "fix everything" all at once?

[Athelas]

>I have alot of energy and ideas that would help my church put I dont feel it is right for me to present them to anyone because I dont think I'm strong enough in Christ or a good enough person to get into the church ministry.<

I think you should speak out and trust the heart that god gave you.

> if you look at the character of each, you will see that they're all completely different, as are their followers.<

Quite so. The impulse toward reaching out to the Creator is the very center of our human nature; but the way that different people see god is filtered through their own cultures.

The Indian Upon God

by W. B. Yeats

I PASSED along the water's edge below the humid trees,
My spirit rocked in evening light, the rushes round my knees,
My spirit rocked in sleep and sighs; and saw the moor-fowl pace
All dripping on a grassy slope, and saw them cease to chase
Each other round in circles, and heard the eldest speak:
Who holds the world between His bill and made us strong or weak
Is an undying moorfowl, and He lives beyond the sky.
The rains are from His dripping wing, the moonbeams from
His eye.
I passed a little further on and heard a lotus talk:
Who made the world and ruleth it, He hangeth on a stalk,
For I am in His image made, and all this tinkling tide
Is but a sliding drop of rain between His petals wide.
A little way within the gloom a roebuck raised his eyes
Brimful of starlight, and he said: The Stamper of the Skies,
He is a gentle roebuck; for how else, I pray, could He
Conceive a thing so sad and soft, a gentle thing like me?
I passed a little further on and heard a peacock say:
Who made the grass and made the worms and made my feathers gay,
He is a monstrous peacock, and He waveth all the night
His languid tail above us, lit with myriad spots of light

[Mrs. Maggott]

Oh, and Athelas, re the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit: it is in fact one God in three persons, just as we are one person with three realities: body, soul or mind and spirit. St. Patrick used the shamrock to illustrate how God can be Three in One since the leaf of the shamrock has three lobes, but is still one leaf.

Even more interesting, the original text of what Christians call "The Old Testament" in the phrase, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One", the original Hebrew word for "One" in that context actually meant "Unity", not one in the sense of a "singularity". However, at the end of the 1st or the beginning of the 2nd century, the Jewish religious leaders now in diaspora and fearing that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity might be advanced by the definition of the original Hebrew word (since "unity" denotes more than one individual dwelling in a condition of union), changed the word to the Hebrew word for "one" as in quantity. But it was not always so and many of the prophets of the O.T. spoke of the "Son of God", the Messiah who was to come and therefore the concept that God would take on flesh (become incarnate) and appear on earth to dwell among men was not foreign to Jewish thought of the time - and even some Jewish thought today.

[LOTRfan2]

Originally posted by BranMuffin
I ONLY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD. IF YOU DO NOT THEN YOU PROBABLY DON'T BELONG ON THIS THREAD, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO UPSET PEOPLE THEN DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE PLEASE. NOTICE THE THREAD TITLE, IT IS NOT THE "COME IN AND BASH CHRISTIANS" THREAD. I BELIEVE THIS THREAD WAS FOR CHRISTIANS TO TALK TO EACH OTHER NOT DEFEND OR PROVE OUR BELIEFS.

Thank You. I'm not specifically saying any ONE person was bashing this, I was originially intending on this thread being for Christians, God Kids, ONLY, It wasn't supposed to expand to the Spanish Inquisition or anything like that at all.....Let's try & keep the discussions (meaty ones, specifically) in the Hell thread, or elsewhere.....This is for ppl who believe the same thing, so let's try & not drag other things in for the sake of that. This thread was origininally intended to kinda be a "safehaven" or "getaway" from all the other "secular" discussions......To have a common ground, Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and Creator. Let's try & keep that, rather, get it back :)

Also, God is a spirit. He has no physical being, therefore he can't be black or white. As for Jesus being separate from God, Jesus Christ was God in Human flesh. He came to earth as a man (and being middle eastern he'd have those features, in the FLESH), but God is THREE in ONE. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I think that this is a "take God at His word cuz he's right" issue, not a debatable, so can we pleeeeeease not debate it?? PLEASE! I'll even stop at this point, promise! :) (at least on this thread...heehee)

Thanks, and let's work to keep this thread for it's originial intent; The glory of Jesus!!!!

LOTRfan2

[Athelas]

>re the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit: it is in fact one God in three persons,<

Yes, that is the point I was making. Other examples of Divine trinities would be:

In Witchcraft, the Goddess is seen as having three aspects: Maiden, Mother, and Krone.

In the Greek tradition, she is Kore, Demeter and Hecate.

The Morrigan was a Celtic pagan triple and single goddess. In her triple form, the Morrigan was joined by her sisters Badb and Nemain.

Some Hindus see Bhrama, Shiva, and Vishnu in the same way.

One god, with different aspects, but still one god.

[HLGStrider]

Please let me know when you know for certain.

So you're saying that because we cannot know for sure it cannot be true?
I personally believe that God cannot be proven, but just because it can't be proven doesn't mean it doesn't exist. . .on the same token, just because it cannot be proven not to exist doesn't mean it exists. Either it exists or it doesn't. . .

So the way I would put it is that only one is true, I just can't prove mine is.
The way you put it is because we can't prove one is true all of them are.
Truth is beyond our sight, but it is still truth.

Another question: Why do you love Jesus, as you say you do?

You don't believe he died for you, do you? You don't seem to believe you need a savior (the sin issue), so if he did die for you, it didn't do anything. You don't believe much of what he said, so how do you know he said the things you like to believe he said and didn't say the things you didn't like (that he was the son of God, etc)? Seems to me, with as much as you've thrown out of the Gospels, they can't mean anything to you, so all you have left is a few passages anyone could've said and other people have said.
I know of a lot of great philosophers, but I don't love them the way I loved Jesus.
So why do you love Jesus? Just because he stands for something in some people's minds? Anyone can be a symbol, and if it is just a symbol you love, it seems pretty powerless.

[Mrs. Maggott]

I suppose it might be said that unless God appeared in the heavens and said, "Here I am!", that the existence of God cannot be proven, but frankly that is not altogether true. Albert Einstein and many other scientists believed in God if for no other reason than their understanding of the creation was such that they could not envision that it simple "happened", that in fact, there must be a "Creator" to explain its existence.

Let's look at a few "scientific facts": there are accepted scientific parameters for what is called "randomness", that is, something simply "happening" for no reason other than random elements got together and produced it. Terrestrially (on earth), this parameter is 10 raised to the 15th power (if I could do things on this computer, it would show a 10 with a small 15 to its upper right, but I can't do it, blast it!). Anyway, as you all know, this means 10 times 10 times 10 fifteen times. This is a good sized number. If something has a chance of happening randomly on earth in anything less than 10 to the 15th, it is considered "possible" that in fact it was a "random happening". Out in the cosmos, this number rises significantly to 10 to the 50th power! You can imagine that this is a considerably larger number.

Now, having established the parameters within which science (not religion) is willing to accept that something could arise randomly, let us look at life on earth and see if this can be calculated into that "random chance" category. The chances of a single protein arising randomly (and remember, amino acids, the"building blocks" of life itself contains many such proteins) is 10 to the 40,000th power! - Think about it!

As an anectdotal note, British Dr. Francis Crick(?sp?), co-discoverer of DNA with American Dr. James Watson, when questioned about the incredible complexities of this basic molecule of life, admitted that it simply could NOT have arisen "ramdomly". Dr. Crick is an atheist and when his questioner asked how then did DNA make its appearance on earth, the good Doctor noted that probably "aliens" came and deposited it on earth! Unfortunately for Dr. Crick, there was an English minister in the audience who then had the temerity to inquire of him where the aliens came from! Alas, the good Doctor had no answer to that one!

[Athelas]

>So you're saying that because we cannot know for sure it cannot be true?<

Nope. All your idea.

>The way you put it is because we can't prove one is true all of them are.<

I never said that either, did I?

>Why do you love Jesus, as you say you do?<

I've met Jesus face to face, and we have a personal relationship. I love him because I love him, not just because he loves me or because he might exalt or condemn me. He is an Avatar of god who has shown me a loving path to god. I know that he is a son of god like all of us. I know that his path requires that I always work on my own spiritual development. No, I don't believe every word in any one particular version of the Bible. Yes, I believe in Original Grace, so although he was crucified, it was not necessary to redeem or "save" anyone. At sometime in our lives, we all meet our own crucifixion. Some things you just have to learn and experience yourself.

I will not say that Jesus is in my heart, but rather that I am in the heart of Jesus.

[LOTRfan2]

God's existance is proven in Creation. The organization of it, the beauty, and the amazing features/characteristics of humans/animals/plants all point toward an amazing almighty, organized Creator!!!

LOTRfan2 PS-there's a few verses in Romans that talk about this, but I'll post them later

[HLGStrider]

I never said that either, did I?

No, but it seemed implied, and if it wasn't, there needs to be more clarity in your writing. . .my writing teacher talked about that a lot. . .more than he should've. Got the idea the first time. . .got to be clear in where you stand and what you mean to write well. . .course, this isn't about writing.

So you do believe in Jesus as a symbol (Avatar of God, or am I misreading you again), but as a living one. . .I suppose sort of like Martin Luther King Jr. being a human symbol of the Civil Rights movement. Is my analogy close?

So, you weren't saying that all of them are true because we can't prove them? Then why did you give us not being able to know for sure as a reason for all of them being true?
Another thing, Athelas, how can we as humens determine truth?<

Please let me know when you know for certain.

Or am I misreading you again? Really, I know it looks good to make vague, short posts, but you could be a lot clearer.

My teacher always said it was better to over explain than under explain. . . I didn't get along well with him, but he had a point in that one.

[Athelas]

>So you do believe in Jesus as a symbol (Avatar of God, or am I misreading you again), but as a living one. . .I suppose sort of like Martin Luther King Jr. being a human symbol of the Civil Rights movement. Is my analogy close?<

No, an Avatar is not a symbol, an Avatar is god in a human body.

> So, you weren't saying that all of them are true because we can't prove them? Then why did you give us not being able to know for sure as a reason for all of them being true?<

You have completely lost me.:confused:

[Eriol]

I'll open a thread about Incarnation to avoid cluttering LotRfan2's thread.

I want to address this "God in a human body" matter...

[Kailita]

Please post a link when you get it up, Eriol. I'd like to take a look at it.

Originally posted by Athelas
I've met Jesus face to face, and we have a personal relationship. I love him because I love him, not just because he loves me or because he might exalt or condemn me. He is an Avatar of god who has shown me a loving path to god. I know that he is a son of god like all of us. I know that his path requires that I always work on my own spiritual development. No, I don't believe every word in any one particular version of the Bible. Yes, I believe in Original Grace, so although he was crucified, it was not necessary to redeem or "save" anyone. At sometime in our lives, we all meet our own crucifixion. Some things you just have to learn and experience yourself.

Wait a minute. You're saying that Jesus was crucified...just because. That He didn't do it to save us or for any specific purpose...right? Then why in the world would God allow his Son to go through that? Why not bring Him down off the cross and display His glory for everyone to see and know that He is God? A specific verse comes to mind:

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

I don't think it gets much clearer. You say you "don't believe every word in any one particular version of the Bible". Can you clarify that a bit? Because if you decide that some parts of the Bible are not true, what's to say that it's not all false? The Bible is an all or nothing deal - it's either the greatest Truth the world has ever known, or the most hideous lie and deception. It cannot be a little of both.

[Eriol]

This is it:

Incarnation thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=12048)

[Athelas]

Remember, this isn't just god's son. This is god himself being crucified.

Why would he do that to himself?

In order to be completely human and completely god at the same time. Being human means the trauma of birth and death. I also believe that Jesus did indeed have a moment of doubt and fear, forgetting who he really was long enough to personally experience that essential, HUMAN moment. If he had walked through life without knowing hunger, loneliness, pain, tears, he would not really have lived as a man. He died as a man as well. Perhaps he died so dramatically to demonstrate that a loving self sacrifice can ignite that same love in the heart of every other human being, and so bring them home to him, to god.

I believe that god can be seen both as "perfect" and as constantly growing, learning, and evolving into himself. This is a paradox, but if you want to really know god, get used to it; god is a lot bigger than human understanding can emcompass.

>The Bible is an all or nothing deal - it's either the greatest Truth the world has ever known, or the most hideous lie and deception. It cannot be a little of both.<

Absurd. First of all, which version of the bible are you referring to? This book is the work of many different human authors. Over the centuries, scriptures have been removed as "heretical," others added and edited.

[HLGStrider]

You have completely lost me

When I first asked how humans could determine truth, you said, tell me when you know for sure. So what does that mean? Tell me when I know for sure that humans determine truth? Well, I know for sure that they don't. I'm not sure I could prove it (in the material realm, yes, spiritual no), but I know that they don't. So, I figured you were telling me what I figured you were telling me in earlier posts. . .So try again. Clarity in writing and all that. ;)

[Athelas]

>When I first asked how humans could determine truth, you said, tell me when you know for sure.<

How can we really "know" anything.

Read, Descartes, Berkeley, and Hume, then get back to me, but frankly these guys bored the hell out of me. That is the best that I can answer your question. Good luck and godspeed.;)

[Eriol]

Do you think epistemological considerations such as the "Cogito" apply to God, Athelas? Is He hindered in the search for truth as much as we are?

You see, if you answer "no", then there is no impediment for God to make us see the truth.

[HLGStrider]

Read, Descartes, Berkeley, and Hume, then get back to me, but frankly these guys bored the hell out of me. That is the best that I can answer your question. Good luck and godspeed

I prefer to argue with you than someone who is dead. The response is quicker.

Even if I did read them, why should I take their word for it anymore than yours?

Have you read C.S. Lewis? You probably have. He's a very good writer. Not at all boring. . .

Ever heard this one: Descartes walks into a bar and the bartender asks, "Do you want a beer?" Descartes replies, "I think not." Then he disapears.

[Athelas]

>Do you think epistemological considerations such as the "Cogito" apply to God, Athelas?<

No, they belong to dreary parlor debates over "How can one really "know" anything," i.e. Western Philosophy 101, which I have best heard described as "talk about talk." Not at all interested. I'll sit this one out.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Athelas
>Do you think epistemological considerations such as the "Cogito" apply to God, Athelas?<

No, they belong to dreary parlor debates over "How can one really "know" anything," i.e. Western Philosophy 101, which I have best heard described as "talk about talk." Not at all interested. I'll sit this one out.

And how do you know that they belong to dreary parlor debates?

:D

But go ahead, sit it out. Only don't come back claiming to "know" anything, then, if the foundation of your faith is that truth is unknowable.

It is not the foundation of my faith...

[Athelas]

>Only don't come back claiming to "know" anything, then, if the foundation of your faith is that truth is unknowable.<

*Edited by Tal*


**Knock it off, Athelas. You can debate nice, or don't debate at all -- Tal**

[Eriol]

Nicely spoken, Athelas. Show me how not to be a jerk, then.

I thought that when you said that Elgee should read Hume and Descartes to understand why we can't know anything, you were saying that truth is unknowable. Correct me, please, explain what you really believe.

[Athelas]

I operate under the assumption that truth is knowable. I avoid debates about whether truth is knowable or not because I find them tedious and, in a practical sense, utterly pointless.

"I know what I know, if you know what I mean."~Edie Brickell

[HLGStrider]

No, they belong to dreary parlor debates
I've always wanted a parlor. . .sounds so much nicer than living room. . .

Boy, Ath, you can give it but you can't take it. ;)

Don't I get my questions answered?



Even if I did read them, why should I take their word for it anymore than yours?
A serious question.

Have you read C.S. Lewis?
A musing question not so serious but still want to know the answer.

Ever heard this one: Descartes walks into a bar and the bartender asks, "Do you want a beer?" Descartes replies, "I think not." Then he disapears. ?
A very serious question. . .actually, no, but I did want to know if you heard it. . .or at least getting a laugh out of it. . .trying to lighten things up and all that rot.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Athelas
I operate under the assumption that truth is knowable. I avoid debates about whether truth is knowable or not because I find them tedious and, in a practical sense, utterly pointless.

"I know what I know, if you know what I mean."~Edie Brickell

Thanks! And so I leave you and Elgee where you first were -- since truth is knowable, two contradictory versions of God can't coexist. One of them is false.

(note, I don't mean complex or paradoxical, I mean contradictory)

[Talierin]

Athelas, knock it off with the insults... you can debate nice, or don't debate at all

[Athelas]

>two contradictory versions of God can't coexist. One of them is false.<

OMG, you're right. I...I guess I really need to rethink my life...

[Mrs. Maggott]

As to knowing things: we certainly can "know things". For those who believe that life is nothing more than an illusion still live their lives as if it were reality (they try not to stub their toes because it hurts!) The same applies to those who believe that this physical existence is everything; that is, that there is no "hereafter" or higher power or anything other than that which can be physically experienced. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle. We believe that the physical universe is real, but we also believe that there is more to life than the merely material. But whichever way one's philosophy goes, we do encounter basic things that we can "know". You "know" that if you don't have enough money to pay your bill at the store, they aren't going to let you go home with all the groceries you have picked out. You "know" that if it's raining someplace west of where you are that's 20 minutes away, the chances are good that in 20 minutes it's going to be raining where you are! And so forth.

However, our ability to "know" is limited. It's limited to our intellect whether individually or as a species and where God is concerned, it is limited to what He has chosen to make known to us. If we could fully comprehend God, then He wouldn't be God, just something or someone else perhaps more powerful and even greater than man, but not the Creator of the Universe, the Eternal, omniescient, omnipotent, all good God. He is as far beyond our comprehension as quantum physics is beyond the comprehension of a virus. The most that we can hope to do is to learn as much about Him as He in His goodness has deemed to make known to us. If we do this, we will indeed be blessed.

[Eriol]

Absolutely right, Mrs. M. We surely know Him "as if through a dark glass" only...

But the dark glass allows some glimpses of Him. Truth itself is one of them.

[Athelas]

I swear, I was about to quote 1Corinthians13, and then I read your post. Great minds think alike. I read that for my Baccalaureate.
:D

[Eriol]

Yes, great minds think alike ;).

St. Paul was a great mind... the more we think like him the better.

:)

[Athelas]

posting this:

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 13:10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. 13:13

http://www.ebible.org/bible/ASV/1Cor.htm

When somone says THE BIBLE is either all true or none of it is true, my first question is, which one?

English Bible translations available on the Internet:
American Standard Version
Amplified Bible
Bible in Basic English
Children's Bible
Darby Bible
Douay-Rheims Bible (Catholic)
God's Word
Grail Psalter: The Book of Psalms
King James Version
King James Version (Additional)
Message Bible
Net Bible
New American Bible
New American Standard Version
New English Translation
New International Version
New King James Version
New Living Translation
New Revised Standard Version
Revised Standard Version
Young's Literal Translation
Weymouth New Testament
World English Bible (Hebrew Names Version)
Wycliffe New Testament




:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Eriol]

Why, of course the Catholic -- which I believe is the same used in the Orthodox Church, Mrs. Maggott can help us with that.

:D

*Eriol ducks -- and not from Athelas ;)*

[Firawyn]

All those Bibles are just translations. They all say the same thing, with the exception of the thees and thows and some word order. Look up any verse in ten different bibles if you want, and it will say the same thing give or take a few words.:)

[LOTRfan2]

WHAT r we talkin' about now?? I'm lost.......

LOTRfan2

[Firawyn]

I was replying to this:

Originally posted by Athelas

When somone says THE BIBLE is either all true or none of it is true, my first question is, which one?

English Bible translations available on the Internet:
American Standard Version
Amplified Bible
Bible in Basic English
Children's Bible
Darby Bible
Douay-Rheims Bible (Catholic)
God's Word
Grail Psalter: The Book of Psalms
King James Version
King James Version (Additional)
Message Bible
Net Bible
New American Bible
New American Standard Version
New English Translation
New International Version
New King James Version
New Living Translation
New Revised Standard Version
Revised Standard Version
Young's Literal Translation
Weymouth New Testament
World English Bible (Hebrew Names Version)
Wycliffe New Testament

[Mrs. Maggott]

The Bible used by the Orthodox Church is a translation from the Greek rather than the Latin Vulgate used by the Catholic Church. The Old Testament translation is called the Septuagint and the New is called "The Received" (this was the Greek text from which the King James was translated). There are of course, some differences in translation and often they do impact meaning, but generally most translations are relatively uniform. Of course, translations like the King James suffer from the natural changes brought about by the evolution of language usage. For instance, "charity" has been translated into "love" although that is not an altogether accurate translation. "Suffer" - as in "suffer the little children to come to Me" - is frequently misunderstood in this archaic usage of the word "permit" or "allow".

Worse still, far too many people use Scripture out of context to prove points or illustrate opinions. Scripture must be understood in context or it can be made to justify the most "ungodly" things.

The reader of Scripture must always say a prayer to The Holy Spirit that he be guided in reading God's word lest he be led astray by those beings who have a vested interest in preventing God's interaction with men.

[Eriol]

Thanks Mrs. M., especially for the last paragraph of your post, very important indeed.

[Athelas]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
Worse still, far too many people use Scripture out of context to prove points or illustrate opinions. Scripture must be understood in context or it can be made to justify the most "ungodly" things.

The reader of Scripture must always say a prayer to The Holy Spirit that he be guided in reading God's word lest he be led astray by those beings who have a vested interest in preventing God's interaction with men.

These devils and demons are so clever; they disguise themselves as otherwise normal people who disagree with my religious views.:eek: ;)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Athelas
These devils and demons are so clever; they disguise themselves as otherwise normal people who disagree with my religious views.:eek: ;)
When Pilate attempts to prevent Christ's crucifixion, he tells the Sanhedrin and the mob they have gathered that, "I am not guilty of the blood of this innocent Man." The mob replies, "His blood be on us and our children!" And thus did many in medieval times and even till today justify persecution of the Jews. The comment is taken out of context in order to justify a particular mindset.

Another of my favorites are the little kids quoting Scripture: "And Judas went and hanged himself. - Go thou and do likewise." Somehow, I don't think those two verses were supposed to be read together! :p

[HLGStrider]

The church I was going to when I was six or so (as opposed to the one when I was one or so as opposed to the one when I was three or so as opposed to the one when I was ten or so. . .) once had a talent night where a church elder did an act to illustrate that. He got up and he read that story about the guy who falls from a wall when he falls asleep during one of Jesus's sermons. He read the whole thing word for word and then he just stopped where the guy fell from the wall and was picked up dead . . .then he said, "That's what happens if you fall asleep in church" and left the stage. Of course, the rest of the story is that the guy was brought back to life, I think, but it was really funny. . .

You're Greek Orthodox, Mrs. M? That's cool. . .but you know I think anyone who hears that you are from now on is going to start thinking "Big Fat Greek Wedding. . ." He he. . .

Occassionally a word will be off, but not dramatically. The Bible is probably the purest text of any near that age.

I like literal translation Bibles. They may be a little harder to read, but they are harder to misread as well.

[Mrs. Maggott]

No. Actually, my husband and I belong to a parish of the Orthodox Church in America. The United States has had its own autocephalous Orthodox Church since 1970. The Greeks want to be Greek more than they want to be Orthodox most of the time and my husband (the Greek in the family) preferred the Church to his ethnic background and wanted the liturgical services to be in English. As a Anglo-Celt myself, I was strongly inclined to English and couldn't wait to be in the OCA. Of course, the OCA comes out of the Russo/Slavic tradition. The Russians were the first Orthodox in the United States coming into Alaska (then a Russian-owned province) in the 1700s and migrating down first into San Francisco and then across country to New York where the Metropolia (the ruling Bishop and the Synod) had a residence in Syosset in a small "gold coast" estate donated to the Church in the 1900s (it's 10 minutes driving distance from my house). Up until the early 20th century, all Orthodox national churches - including the Greeks - were under the Metropolia.

However, when the Metropolia was cut off from the Moscow Patriarchate (the "Mother Church" in America) at the time of the Russian Revolution, the other ethnic jurisdictions "set up" on their own (which is a heresy) and when rapproachment was re-established between the Metropolia and the Moscow Patriarch in 1970 as the first step in establishing an autocephalous (independent) Orthodox Church in the United States, the Greeks were not happy, preferring their "Hellenic heritage" to having a Church in the United States that was for Americans as well as for immigrants from Orthodox cultures. But despite the Greeks, the OCA is doing well and is slowly being joined by other ethnic jurisdictions - Serbian, Albanian, Romanian, Antiochean and others who though not yet under our present Metropolitan and still connected to the Patriarch in their own homeland, work in concert with the OCA. Hopefully, in another decade or two (really rapid for the Orthodox!) we might see the beginning of the end of the "jurisdictional heresy" which plagues this country as well as Canada and Mexico.

It's interesting history, but it does not affect the doctrines of the Church. It is just how the Eastern Christian Church developed as opposed to how the Church developed in the West. In the West, there was one Apostolic See (established by the Apostles) and that was Rome. In the East, there were four (Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople/Istambul). So the Church in the East developed as a single Church but jurisdictionally and culturally along national lines with the liturgy and religious writings (including Scripture) translated into the language of the country whereas in the West, it remained in Latin throughout all the countries in Europe. But the Church was still one Church despite its different national institutions. Things only got sticky in the United States because of the tremendous immigrant populations and the Russian Revolution. Otherwise, we might have simply developed a National Church in the same way everybody else did!

[Elendil3119]

I normally read the Bible (New Testament) in its original Greek, so I'm not a huge fan of translations, because they always lose some of the accuracy and meaning no matter how good they are. From my experience, the KJV (my favorite English translation), NASB, and NKJV are the most accurate. However, in its attempt to be very accurate, the NASB often has quite clumsy grammer. Another good translation that's out there is the ESV. It preserves both the meaning of the text, and the beauty of the original languages. The best thing about it is that its easier to read than most other translations. The NIV is also easy to read, but it falls into grievous exegetical errors in places.:(

[Talierin]

I like the NKJV.... I would read the KJV, but all the thee and thous are just too much for me. Sometimes though if I don't understand something in the NKJV I'll dig out my KJV study bible with all the little notes at the bottom and read what it has to say about it.

[LOTRfan2]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Athelas
These devils and demons are so clever; they disguise themselves as otherwise normal people who disagree with my religious views.


R u saying that ppl who disagree w/ u are evil?? If so, that's quite rude........Don't mind me if I'm wrong on this, tho....After a full day of exam after exam, I tend 2 be a bit edgy.......But if that'z what ur saying, I tink it's mean cuz ppl disagree w/ me all the time.


LOTRfan2 *like I said, if I'm wrong, don't mind me* ;P

[Athelas]

Once upon a time, people who disagreed over religion or politics could accuse each other of being "in league with ye Devil," or worse, an actual DEMON or DEVIL disguised as a human in order to lead their minds away from god with sinful ideas. (Science for example.) Up until a few centuries ago, such an accusation could get you hanged or burned to death.

Lame, but some folk will stoop to anything to keep from losing an argument.

Fortunately nowadays, when somebody starts screaming stuff like "I SAW GOODY PROCTOR WITH THE DEVIL!" they are usually medicated and put somewhere where they can't hurt themselves or others.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Athelas
Once upon a time, people who disagreed over religion or politics could accuse each other of being "in league with ye Devil," or worse, an actual DEMON or DEVIL disguised as a human in order to lead their minds away from god with sinful ideas. (Science for example.) Up until a few centuries ago, such an accusation could get you hanged or burned to death.

Lame, but some folk will stoop to anything to keep from losing an argument.

Fortunately nowadays, when somebody starts screaming stuff like "I SAW GOODY PROCTOR WITH THE DEVIL!" they are usually medicated and put somewhere where they can't hurt themselves or others.
Ah, yes! Please if you have not done so, read Lewis' Screwtape Letters. They will certainly show you just how the devil does his work in these days of skeptics and materialists (although, of course, when Lewis wrote the work, it wasn't as bad as it is now!). But it's a great book, short and funny and well worth reading.

[HLGStrider]

Very funny. . .try to get a version that includes Screwtapes Toast. . .he he. . .As a homeschooler I don't mind having the school system bashed. . .

[Firawyn]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Very funny. . .try to get a version that includes Screwtapes Toast. . .he he. . .As a homeschooler I don't mind having the school system bashed. . .

Homeschooler huh? Me too!

[HLGStrider]

Which explains why thou art plagued by the evilness of the 60 second rule! Thou art my sister in the fast typing mucho posting homeschoolers family!

[Elendil3119]

I'm a homeschooler too, but I don't have problems getting on the computer enough. I've got my own computer, and it's at the desk where I do my school...;) BTW how fast do you type, Elgee?

[BranMuffin]

Home-schoolers.........

[~ArwenEstel~]

WOW! I leave for a few days and you get 5 new pages! :eek:

Originally posted by FREEDOM!
Ok, Jesus is THE Son of God, He also IS God, and the Holy Spirit.

Actually, Jesus is the Son of God, God is God, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit! They are 3 different beings!!

[Lifeling]

Wow... the trinity... I dont think we should get into an argument cuz noone really knows how it works... my belief is that it is like a clover... 3 leaves yet one plant...

[Sarah]

I've heard it described as one cherry pie. 3 slices on the outside, but on the inside it's all still one pie.

[Athelas]

That reminds me of this scene from "American Pie."

[Angoreth]

I Might be a little late in the thread. But I am a Toatl Jesus freak!




I get closer to God through each trial I go through, weither I am right or wronge, he helps me through my pain.

[HLGStrider]

BTW how fast do you type, Elgee?

It alternates with mood, what I'm typing, and the goodness of the keyboard, but on average 55. On a good day I can achieve more than 60, but normally when I do the typing instructor it measures me at 55 (I don't do as well on the typing instructor because I normally type from my mind and the typing instructor just gives you silly sentences to type which I don't like to think about).

My mom taught me the Trinity with an egg. . .shell, white, yolk=egg, you know. . .She told me that's why we use eggs for Easter, despite what that big pink rabbit says. . .The Easter Bunny's real name is Harvey, as we all know.

Where was I?

My spiritual relationship is more with God than with Jesus, though I pray in Jesus's name, it is always very much a conversation with God. I believe Jesus is what enables me to talk to God and Jesus is what makes God see me as his child, and so Jesus is very important to me, but I think I love God more than I love Jesus, which seems to be the opposite of most people. . .I suppose, since they are one, it doesn't really make a difference which one you care for the most. Loving the Father is loving the son. . .

Anyway, I was thinking about a really odd analogy about Christianity this morning, but first, to make sure I'm understood. . .

Has anyone hear ever watched Deep Space Nine?

[Sarah]

Originally posted by HLGStrider


My spiritual relationship is more with God than with Jesus, though I pray in Jesus's name, it is always very much a conversation with God. I believe Jesus is what enables me to talk to God and Jesus is what makes God see me as his child, and so Jesus is very important to me, but I think I love God more than I love Jesus, which seems to be the opposite of most people. . .I suppose, since they are one, it doesn't really make a difference which one you care for the most. Loving the Father is loving the son. . .



Whew, now I feel better, I thought I was going about it in the wrong way or something, cuz that's how I see it. Thanks Elgee

[HLGStrider]

I seriously think it is a fatherhood issue. . .I see God very much as a father, a perfect father. I've spent hours crying practically in His lap, telling Him my problems (I pray very informally).

There was this song by Chris Rice. .. Belong, I think. I almost got into a theological arguement with my sister over it because there is a line in there, "Father love prepares a place, brother Jesus leads the way." and she thought it was sacreligious to refer to Jesus as Brother Jesus (my sister RLG is very formal in everything). I didn't think it was and said I didn't think it was and that's as far as it went. RLG never changes HLG's opinions and visa versa. . .
Anyone listen to Chris Rice? I find a lot of people really don't like him, but his lyrics are amazing.

[LOTRfan2]

Originally posted by ~ArwenEstel~
WOW! I leave for a few days and you get 5 new pages! :eek:



Actually, Jesus is the Son of God, God is God, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit! They are 3 different beings!!


Matthew 28:19 says: ..."baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" And in John Jesus said many times that He and the Father were ONE.
Mark 1:10-11 says: " As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open, and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased"
Here we see all 3 members of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All are ONE. It's something that is scriptural, even though it isn't easy for the human mind to comprehend...Check out the 17th chapter (I believe it's 17......should be) of John (not 1st John, John as in the 4 gospels) & read it. Jesus makes it clear that him, the Father, & the Holy Spirit (mentioned in Mark 1:10-11) are ONE.

LOTRfan2

[Mrs. Maggott]

Christian Biblical and theological scholars also posit that the "Three Angels" who visited Abraham were in fact, God in His Three Persons and that Abraham speaks to only One of those Persons (when he pleads for the "innocent" in Sodom and Gomorrah). Most probably, that Person was, in fact, what we call "the Son" or the Second Person of the Trinity.

Of course, these are all anthropomorphic descriptive illusions to something that is beyond our understanding. However, God did appear as Three "Angelic Beings" to Abraham just as Jacob wrestled with another such Being who is called an Angel, but in fact, is God Himself.

[LOTRfan2]

Maggot-I'm not sure what your point is or where you're going with this post.......Are you saying that u believe that the Trinity is three separate beings??


LOTRfan2

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by LOTRfan2
Maggot-I'm not sure what your point is or where you're going with this post.......Are you saying that u believe that the Trinity is three separate beings??


LOTRfan2
No, indeed. God is one God in Three Persons. However, (being God and therefore able to do as He wishes with "reality"), He "appeared" to Abraham in the Guise of Three Angelic Beings. But Abraham was not "fooled" and immediately recognized Whom he was "entertaining". We know this not only because he knelt before his "Visitors" in adoration (which he would not have done with a mere angelic messenger) but because he then went on to attempt to "argue" on behalf of whatever innocent persons might have lived in the Cities of the Plain and, in doing so, he addressed the One to whom he spoke as God rather than a mere angelic messenger. There was no doubt in the conversation that Abraham knew he was speaking to God and that God knew it as well.

The point I am making here is that God has manifested Himself in Time in His Trinitarian nature, firstly with Abraham and then later at the Epiphany (the Baptism of Christ in the Jordan).

[HLGStrider]

The Trinity is a hard point to grasp. I've never really had a problem with it, however. . .though that is probably because I have a bad habit of only thinking of two of the personalities in the mix (the big two). I don't think about the Holy Spirit much or about what he is really "there" for. . .Probably because we Baptists get into arguements with the Penecostal types there. . .

Home-schoolers

Just a side note. . .

I, Elgee, am on a one woman crusade to make Homeschool spelt with no space an official word. . .that's the way we homeschoolers like it. . . he he. . .

[Elendil3119]

There's a lot of good stuff in Romans about how the Holy Spirit was sent to be "our Helper". It's all to easy just to think about the Father and Son, and to forget about how the Holy Spirit works in our lives. :)
I, Elgee, am on a one woman crusade to make Homeschool spelt with no space an official word. . .that's the way we homeschoolers like it. . . he he. . .
I don't know why people think homeschooled has to be spelled "home-schooled". You'd think it was some made-up foreign concept...I guess it is to most people. :D

[HLGStrider]

I know . . .my spell checker won't acknowledge it. . .evil thing! I'll have to teach it!
Elgee sits in front of computer brandishing a rubber mallet and plotting evil things towards her spell checker.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Admittedly, the Third Person of the Trinity is more difficult to grasp and yet, He is the Person of God who moved primarily in both the Old Testament and in the post-Pentacostal Church. In the original Creed adopted by the Church in the Fourth Century, the Holy Spirit is said to have "spoken through the prophets" in the Old Testament and at Pentecost "descended upon" the Apostles and disciples in the upper room granting them knowledge and power far beyond what they had previously possessed.

After that time, all baptism into the Church was not John's baptism of water (for the cleansing of sin), but baptism in Christ's name which bestowed upon the receiver, the gift of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, it was the fact that Gentiles as well as Jews received the Holy Spirit upon their conversion and baptism that it became known to the early Church that the separation of the peoples was over and the Gentiles as well were being gathered by God into His Kingdom.

[LOTRfan2]

Let'z see if I understand your point now...

So, ur saying that God is one, but he's kind of divided himself up into three beings?? I'm sry if I'm buggin' u, my brain kinda went on summer vacation along w/ the rest of me....

LOTRfan2

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by LOTRfan2
Let'z see if I understand your point now...

So, ur saying that God is one, but he's kind of divided himself up into three beings?? I'm sry if I'm buggin' u, my brain kinda went on summer vacation along w/ the rest of me....

LOTRfan2
Say rather that He permitted Himself to "appear" to Abraham as three Individuals rather than in some other guise. Since He is the Creator and omnipotent, I suppose He could have appeared as a field mouse had that been His desire. After all, He did appear to Jacob - and even wrestled with him - as one "angelic being".

I simply brought up that particular point referable to the other Trinitarian manifestation in Scripture, that of Christ's Theophany when the Voice of the Father is heard from heaven, the Son appears in the Jordan and the Holy Spirit appears in the form of a Dove. It was really only supposed to be an "aside" to the conversation taking place and not intended to confuse anyone. Sorry if my inadequate explanatory ability led to exactly the opposite.

[HLGStrider]

You guys got me thinking about it. . .so I had to go get the lyrics for that song I mentioned. . .I typed these up all by myself.

"Belong"
Fading memories ignored
I crawl across the forest floor.
Pool reflects an orphan child,
Dirty, lost, alone and wild.
Fatherless and nameless still
Fallen heart and broken, will
there ever be a place where I belong.
I cower 'neath the monster trees
And try to stand on tired feet.
But gravity knocks me to the ground
Where I give up, and tears roll down.
I law the dust and beg the end
Curse the day that I began
To hope there'd be a place where I belong.
I heard a sound I recognize
You lift my chin and seek my eyes
Song of love You sing to me
I ache to sing it back to Thee
"Father Love prepares a place
Brother Jesus leads the way
Follow to the place where you belong!"
How did I miss this wondrous song?
The forest sang it all along
"River rinses all your shame
Father offers you his name
Father Love prepares a home
Brother Jesus leads you on
Follow to the place where you belong."
"Father love prepares a place
Brother Jesus leads the way
Follow to the place where you belong
Follow to the place where you belong!"

I love this guy. . .(Chris Rice). He's more of a poet then a musician, I think. My sister thinks he's a little immature, but she likes his stuff occasionally (She'll never forgive him for that 'Cartoon Song.' I don't think she can accept the concept of just goofing off. . . If she saw me typing about her like this she would claw my eyes out. .. and she has LONG fingernails!).

[e.Blackstar]

Yay! i'm listening to 'jesus is still alright' by DC Talk right now! yay!
in...lesee...27 days i will be leaving Duluth MN with several friends to go see Reliant K, Newsboys, Michel(sp) W.Smith, TobyMac, Superchic[k], Third day, etc for THREE DAYS!!!!!! Yay!

Failure to Excommunicate
Reliant K
It's the principle, it's the issue, that your principal would dismiss you.
Because you don't fit into that All-American box.
That coffin created for creative thought.
It's disgusting, his priorities.
And we're entrusting him with authority.
His gavel's gone down before he looked in your heart.
He finished this race(ism) before he reached the start.

CHORUS
Jesus loved the outcasts.
He loves the ones the world just loves to hate.
And as long as there's a heaven, there'll be a failure to excommunicate.

The world just keeps you at an arm's length.
Every week you work up the strength,
To fight the flames that are hurled.
Let your faith shine right through.
You know it's the world versus Jesus and you.

It's disgusting, their priorities.
And how we're entrusting them with authority.
Their gavel's gone down before they looked in your heart.
They finished this race(ism) before they reached the start.
(Wonderful Song, this)

[LOTRfan2]

Sorry if my inadequate explanatory ability led to exactly the opposite. [/B][/QUOTE]


No prob! :)

LOTRfan2