Where'z all my Jesus Freaks!??!

[LOTRfan2]

Hey! Where's all my fellow God's kids!?? Let's start an awesome thread, ya'll!!!!!! What has God done in ur lives? How r u growing/learning???! Post here!!!!

LOTRfan2

**God taught me that he loves me no matter what I do to him, or anyone else!!**

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by LOTRfan2
**God taught me that he loves me no matter what I do to him, or anyone else!!**

Umm...and what have you done to him and everyone else?

[HLGStrider]

We have a prayer request thread, if you're interested, though it is interfaith. It's in Member Announcements.

Welcome to the forum.

Love,
Elgee

[LOTRfan2]

ok, awesome!

Our pastor taught a pretty good sermon this morning...Thank u Lord for an AWESOME pastor!!

LOTRfan2 **JESUS FREAK**

[Link]

I'm agnostic.

Jesus freaks and bible thumpers annoy me.

[LOTRfan2]

Sorry, there buddy! You're stuck w/ a total sold out Jesus freak! :)

Still luv ya tho ;)

LOTRfan2 *PS, does everyone understand that I'm a girl!?!*

[Lossengondiel]

Originally posted by LOTRfan2
*PS, does everyone understand that I'm a girl!?!*

I guess we do now :p hey pm me will ya ? :)

[HLGStrider]

Um, Link, then why did you come into this thread. I think what you said was rather rude, and I think you would be offended if I'd posted something similar to it referring to your religious (Or non religious) group.

I guess you have a right to be annoyed, but it's no reason to mess up a LF2's thread.

[Lifeling]

Hey I'm a Jesus freak! yeah I try to live everyday like Jesus was returning tommorow.

So LOTRF2... what do you do, besides get on forums and say you're a Jesus freak?... It sound like you have alot of pasion and energy... What do you do with it?

[spirit]

Are there any wiccans here...?

(nah..i dint think so)

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by Link
I'm agnostic.

Jesus freaks and bible thumpers annoy me.

I consider myself agnostic as well, but that doesn't give me the right to judge those who think/believe differently from me. And you dang near earned yourself some Warning points with that comment. It was condescending and rude; as Elgee said, if the nature of the thread does not appeal to you, suck it up and try to write something civilized, or stay away from it.

[LOTRfan2]

Yup, I have a TON of passion/energy 4 Jesus!!!!!!!!! :)

I try & give my energy 2 God.....just kinda be active @ church & help out. I just had surgery on my shoulder, so I can't be too active physically, but I use my energy 4 my Savior!

LOTRfan2

[Kementari]

Originally posted by Lantarion
I consider myself agnostic as well, but that doesn't give me the right to judge those who think/believe differently from me. And you dang near earned yourself some Warning points with that comment. It was condescending and rude; as Elgee said, if the nature of the thread does not appeal to you, suck it up and try to write something civilized, or stay away from it.

What HE and HLG said! If you dont like Jesus freaks why the heck did you click on the thread "where are my Jesus freaks" it would have been easier to pass it over

[LOTRfan2]

I agree! ;) This was originally intended for true God kids! If you don't like it, you don't have to be a part of it, but you can hang out if you wish.....But just remember, it was originally intended for God Kids, so you probably have no point in hanging out here.

LOTRfan2

[e.Blackstar]

Jesus Freaks! Yeah!
(Hi LOTRfan2. Welcome!)

Where do u live? I go to a yearly youth retreat in Wisconson(sp) USA every year. V.fun!

:D :D :D :D :D

[spirit]

Originally posted by LOTRfan2
I agree! ;) This was originally intended for true God kids! If you don't like it, you don't have to be a part of it, but you can hang out if you wish.....But just remember, it was originally intended for God Kids, so you probably have no point in hanging out here.
LOTRfan2

What about Wiccans? Can we hang around here too? But i am not gonna diss Jesus... so dont worry! :D :D :D

[BranMuffin]

ITS PROBABLY NOT MY SAY BUT I WELCOME EVERYONE!!!
THE MORE THE MERRIER, SHARE THE LOVE!!
JESUS FREAK FOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!

[Link]

you people are offended waaay to easily.


I'm not here to p*ss in everyone's soup, all I did was give a statement.

[LOTRfan2]

Originally posted by Link
you people are offended waaay to easily.


I'm not here to p*ss in everyone's soup, all I did was give a statement.

2 things; One: Would you mind not using that kind of language on this thread? It's kind of offensive. Thanks! :)
And 2, what do u mean: you people are offended waaay to easily.
????????? U mean Christians? Jesus Freaks??


LOTRFan2

[HLGStrider]

Well, Link, you were coming in basically for the purpose of throwing a wet blanket on LF's bonfire. . .unless you had some reasonable intention I didn't know about?

[spirit]

i think he might have ment Jesus Freaks...

[HLGStrider]

I think he might've been referring to those who objected in general. . .it would make more sense. ..oh well. It's over.

Did you check out the prayer request thread, LF?

[LOTRfan2]

For the 50th time......I AM A GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm a female, woman, girl........pleease don't call me a he! It'z funny & everything, but get the gender right! LOL

LOTRfan2 nope, haven't checked it out yet

[Lossengondiel]

Hey hey lotrfan2 pm me!

[Gandalf_White]

I am a really big Jesus freak! God has done so much for me. He helped me get through several surgies (many of them before I was 2 years old) I had one when I was 6 and most recently last August. It was hardest for me because I actually remember it unlike when I was very young and didn't know what was going on. Thank you Jesus!
Welcome to the forum LOTRfan2!

Originally posted by Treyar
Jesus Freaks! Yeah!
(Hi LOTRfan2. Welcome!)

Where do u live? I go to a yearly youth retreat in Wisconson(sp) USA every year. V.fun!

:D :D :D :D :D

Hey Treyar where is that youth retreat. And it's Wisconsin.

[LOTRfan2]

How awesome! :) God is SO good!!!!!!

SO, what has God been teaching ya'll this week??
I asked for prayer in youth group last nite about an oral report I did this morning.....I always get SO nervous, and so I did it this morning, & I did really good! :) YAY!

LOTRfan2

[Ithilin]

Link, it sure sounded negative, the way you said "Jesus freaks and bible thumpers annoy me."

that's like..somebody saying "LotR fans annoy me", except it's worse than that...

ok, I think this subject is closed, so I'll shut up now...sorry, I just get angry when people say unnessesary things >.<

[LOTRfan2]

thanks! I think......LOL

LOTRfan2

[spirit]

Originally posted by LOTRfan2
For the 50th time......I AM A GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm a female, woman, girl........pleease don't call me a he! It'z funny & everything, but get the gender right! LOL

LOTRfan2 nope, haven't checked it out yet

sorry dudette!

[Ithilin]

spirit---what exactly do wiccans believe in? just wanted to hear it from a real wiccan's point of view...

[tookish-girl]

Can I just say I hate the fact you're all calling yourselves "Jesus freaks" I spent a year and a half in high school being bullied for being a Christian and the words Jesus freak inspires such bad memories in me. I had to change schools, you see. And besides it's so negative.

Don't run yourself down people! I always prefered the words "God squad" myself.

By the way, on the Wiccan thing, several of my frineds is Wiccan, she follows the beliefs and rituals of the Ancient Egyptian Alchemists.

[HLGStrider]

I think the phrase got a somewhat nicer conotation in America. There is a Christian band called DC talk which basically made the phrase their own and have a song, album, and book by the title. I don't know if the positive conotation predates that, however.

[Elendil3119]

I much prefer simple "Christian". :)

[LOTRfan2]

I'm sry that u got bullied in H.S about being a Jesus Freak. I was actually persecuted this year for being a Jesus Freak. The "name" is really awesome to me, cuz ppl claim 2 be Christians that aren't, and that has kind of become a widespread term....which is unfortuneate. God Squad just doesn't fit w/ me, but Jesus Freak is perfect!! :)

Rejoice that u were suffering for Jesus! What an incredible honor! I'd go through every single thing I went through this year again just for the joy of knowing HE was there and comforting, and loving me.I have grown SO MUCH because of that. PRAISE GOD!

*I love u, Jesus!*

LOTFan2 PS- Again, I originally intended the thread for God's kids to talk about how they are growing, and to share experiances w/ eachother. I'm not saying not everyone can post here, but God's kids and their personal growth stories/experiances and stuff like that are more appreciated and prefered. Thanks! (this is why I said "Where'z all my Jesus freaks!?!?")

[Gandalf_White]

Does anyone here listen to Christian music? I listen to it a lot. Music has had a very big impact on my life. I had been having suicidal thoughts, but when I listen to positive music it help me find my strength in Jesus.

[LOTRfan2]

YEEEEEEES!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a HUGE, PSYCHOTIC, devoted Steven Curtis Chapman fan! Ppl actually call me SCC Psycho! :) I'm a just totally NUTZ about Stevie C. Chapman!!!!!

LIVE OUT LOUD, ya'll!

LOTRfan2

[Talierin]

I'm gonna go see the OC Supertones, Relient k, Sanctus Real, Pillar, and some guy I don't listen to next saturday, woohoo! I am soooo excited!:D

I like Audio Adrenaline, Tait, Newsboys, couple others too, though the Supertones are definitely my favorites

and Lotrfan, can you please speak in english, and not chatspeak? It's really hard to read, and rather annoying

[HLGStrider]

OOOOOOOOOH ANOTHER SCC FAN!

He he he. . .

Si, mucho grande fan of SCC. . .si si si.

[LOTRfan2]

STEVIE C. CHAPMAN ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In fact- I'm wearing the All About Love shirt right now! LOL

LOTRfan2 PS-I think that post was in pretty plain english, only using "ppl", which is short for "people" I have this incurable internet language thing......sry! I'm not tryin' 2 confuse ne1 but it's this obsessive compulsive disorder I have too ;)

[Khamul]

Originally posted by Talierin
I'm gonna go see the OC Supertones, Relient k, Sanctus Real, Pillar, and some guy I don't listen to next saturday, woohoo! I am soooo excited!:D

Just go for the Pillar concert. ;)

[Talierin]

Heheh, I think not, me dear khamul... macaddict's already made me a huge supertones fan ;)


*doubts that you HAVE to use chatspeak*

[Aragorn*9]

"Hey you, I'm into Jesus
Hey you, I'm into Jesus, oh yeah
Hey you, I'm into Jesus
Hey you, I've seen the truth and I believe"


Jesus Freak

[What will people think
When they hear that I'm a Jesus Freak?
What will people do
When they find that's it's true?]
Separated, I cut myself clean
From a past that comes back in my darkest of dreams
Been apprehended by a spiritual force
And a grace that replaced all the me I've divorced

I saw a man with tat on his big fat belly
It wiggled around like marmalade jelly
It took me a while to catch what it said
Cause I had to match the rhythm
Of his belly with my head
'Jesus Saves' is what it raved in a typical tattoo green
He stood on a box in the middle of the city
And claimed he had a dream

(chorus)
What will people think
When they hear that I'm a Jesus freak
What will people do when they find that it's true
I don't really care if they label me a Jesus freak
There ain't no disguising the truth

Kamikaze, my death is gain
I've been marked by my Maker
A peculiar display
The high and lofty, they see me as weak
Cause I won't live and die for the power they seek

There was a man from the desert with naps in his head
The sand that he walked was also his bed
The words that he spoke made the people assume
There wasn't too much left in the upper room
With skins on his back and hair on his face
They thought he was strange by the locusts he ate
The Pharisees tripped when they heard him speak
Until the king took the head of this Jesus freak

(repeat chorus 2x)

People say I'm strange, does it make me a stranger
That my best friend was born in a manger
People say I'm strange, does it make me a stranger
That my best friend was born in a manger

(repeat chorus 2x)

What will people think
[What will people think]
What will people do
[What will people do]
I don't really care
[What else can I say]
There ain't no disguising the truth
[Jesus is the way]


It think that about sums it up! lol Cause there ain't no disgusing the truth y'all.. we were put here to do one thing and one thing only.. and that's why I'm proud to call myself a Jesus Freak! Where's my freaks at?! :D

[LOTRfan2]

That'z basically my theme song! LOL Thanx, sis! ;)

LOTRfan2

[Gandalf_White]

Yeah Jesus Freak is one of the coolest songs ever! I listen to just about any kind of Christian music. SCC rocks! I like Stacie Orrico (look at my sig), Relient K, POD, Rachael Lampa, Supertones. Just to mention of few of my faves.

[HLGStrider]

I like 4-HIM and Chris Rice. . .

Chris Rice just has such odd lyrics. . .

I like lyrics more than music a lot, I think. I can't sing a note, but I can memorize lyrics like crazy.

[tookish-girl]

I knew that it was a song. I own DC Talk's album (Though I think All Stars United are much the better group, Bright Red Carpet and Saviour of my Universe absolutely rock!)

I just don't think the people who were bullying me realised that it was a song!
Another thing, I really don't mean to sound all cynical and bitter etc, but when I left my school and went to another one, I was told off by some of the other kids at my church because it was such an "honour" being bullied for my faith I should have stayed there, like Jonah running away from Ninevah, but to be really honest, it's horrible and after 15 months of it everyday, I wasn't in the mood for rejoicing!

P.S A few more vowels would be nice, LOTRfan2 ;)

[BranMuffin]

I like all the bands everyone mentioned previously, but I really like the harder bands that most everyone probably has never heard of.

[Aragorn*9]

I haven't read through most this thread (my computer's being weird) but it looks like y'all are talking about what music ya like? I've got a really long list..

Michael W. Smith
Steven Curtis Chapman
Kevin Max
Toby Mac
Tait
dcTalk
Matchbox Twenty
12 Stones
Lifehouse
Relient k
Audio Adrenaline
Newsboys
Delirious?
Switchfoot
U2
Tim McGraw
Shaun Groves
Jars Of Clay
Chris Rice
Third Day

and so many more!

[Khamul]

Originally posted by BranMuffin
I like all the bands everyone mentioned previously, but I really like the harder bands that most everyone probably has never heard of.
Like which ones? Luti-Kriss(Norma Jean), Underoath?

[LOTRfan2]

STEVEN CURTIS CHAPMAN IS NUMBA ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm HUGE SCC Psycho, ya'll!!!!!!

LOTRfan2

[BranMuffin]

Khamul you should know what bands I like(you do know who I am right?), but yes those type of bands.
WOOHOO I'm going to Cornerstone music festival in Florida!!!!!! Oh yeah, 45 bands in one day i'm gonna be dead tired afterward, and actually both Norma Jean and Underoath are playing there.

[spirit]

Originally posted by Ithilin
spirit---what exactly do wiccans believe in? just wanted to hear it from a real wiccan's point of view...

pm it to you...:)

[Elendil3119]

Doesn't anyone listen to music like Steve Green, Michael Card, and Wes King? Or is everyone into the new popular stuff.

[LOTRfan2]

I'm sure that sum ppl listen 2 stuff like that......Altho I prefer the BEST, Steven Curtis Chapman!!!! It'z all about what kinda music/personality, etc u like!! Ok, this soundz mean, but my pastor is a reeeally kewl guy! I beleive he listens 2 Steve Green or Michael Card......I'm pretty sure of that. But my pastor is reeeally awesome!

LOTRfan2 *STEVEN CURTIS CHAPMAN FAN 4 LIFE!!!!!!*

[Elendil3119]

You appear to consider listening to artists like Michael Card as a strike against someone? True?:eek:

[LOTRfan2]

Holy honkin' cow! Jeeze, I don't tink that liking those ppl is bad, I'm just tellin' u that I don't! Hey, no diss on my pastor! He'z awesome! I'm just tryin' 2 make u feel better by tellin' u that I know sum1 who listens 2 them!! No "strikes", and I do beleive SCC is the BEST!!!!!!

LOTRfan2 *SCC NUMBA ONE FAN 4 LIFE*

[Vixen Evenstar]

Hey hey! Jesus rocks my socks!!!:D I don't go in big for SCC...

*hides from the very enthusiastic LOTRfan person*

...I like the punk scene. I love Relient K, Ace Trouble Shooter, FIF, MXPX, Switchfoot, and all that other good stuff! :)

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by LOTRfan2
Holy honkin' cow! Jeeze, I don't tink that liking those ppl is bad, I'm just tellin' u that I don't! Hey, no diss on my pastor! He'z awesome! I'm just tryin' 2 make u feel better by tellin' u that I know sum1 who listens 2 them!! No "strikes", and I do beleive SCC is the BEST!!!!!!

LOTRfan2 *SCC NUMBA ONE FAN 4 LIFE*
Must...find...chatspeak...interpreter....;)*faints *:D

[HLGStrider]

Wes Kings all right. . .he wrote a song dedicated to Bilbo Baggins, I think. . .that's why I like him.

[Gandalf_White]

Hey I really like Michael Card! My mom listens to him a lot and even though we don't always agree on the same music we definitely agree on Michael Card.

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Wes Kings all right. . .he wrote a song dedicated to Bilbo Baggins, I think. . .that's why I like him.
Really?:eek: Which one's that?

[spirit]

Has anyone seen the movie called Jonny English?
one of the the guy has a tatoo on his bach sayin 'Quick, look busy! Jesus is commig'

[LOTRfan2]

*chatspeak interpreter* LOL

Naw, I LOOOOOOOOOOVE SCC!!!!!!!! HE ROCKS!!!!!!!!!! *whew....feels a little better*

LOTRfan2 ******SCC'S NUMBA ONE FAN 4 LIFE!!!!!!********

[Smeagol_06]

Awesome song. :) :) :) Dc talk is a great group. But there best song in my opinion not Jesus Freak it is "Hardway" the remix, the last song on "free at last", Theten year aniverary edition!!!

[HLGStrider]

The name of the song was Simplify. The album was (I think) Room Full of Stories. . .It has a lot of Hobbit references.

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Smeagol_06
Awesome song. :) :) :) Dc talk is a great group. But there best song in my opinion not Jesus Freak it is "Hardway" the remix, the last song on "free at last", Theten year aniverary edition!!! Eich! I'm sure that DC Talk is no longer a band. (Or I'm going a bit loony). DON'T ANSWER THAT!

Surely they all split off to their own bands. Kevin Max, Michael Tait (sp?) and, errr, Toby Mack. I really haven't listened to any DC Talk, but I think my sister's into them. At least I know she has their book.

I'm more along the lines of KJ-52 and P.O.D. myself.

[Talierin]

Just got back from the Supertones concert! :D SOOOOOOOO AWESOOOOOME!!!!!! Just dead now from so much bouncing around, heehee! :D

[LOTRfan2]

*STILL a SCC fan 4 life*.........doesn't NE1 else like Stevie!?! He'z da BEST!!!


LOTRfan2

[Thomas Baggins]

Hey I'm a christian, of the more liberal type ya might say. Well i was just searching the forum's when I saw this thread, great idea LOTRF2!!!

P.S. My brother and sister are in Mich. LOTRf2, I will be too, next weekend.

[LOTRfan2]

Have fun in MI!

LOTRfan2

STEVEN CURTIS CHAPMAN: NUMBA ONE!!!!!!

[Athelas]

Originally posted by spirit
Are there any wiccans here...?

(nah..i dint think so)

I'm a Gnostic Christian and a Witch, with a liberal helping of Zen and Hinduism.

[Elendil3119]

I don't think that someone can claim to be a Christian who takes aspects from other religions and combines them to form his/her own religion. Also, on the subject of witchcraft:
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. (NIV)

[Maedhros]

What is a jesus freak?

[Athelas]

I wonder just who you think you are to judge who can call themselves a Christian and who cannot. Why don't you just leave that to Jesus, K? I wont tell you what you believe, and you don't tell me what I believe. I hope that is clear.A lifetime of experience has shown me how the faiths I mentioned are in complete harmony and agreement. Pray, enlighten us on exactly how Zen contradicts Jesus...

>a Christian who takes aspects from other religions and combines them to form his/her own religion.<

What passes for modern mainstream "Christianity" is a rehash of Zorastrianism and aspects of many other Messianic Martyr cults that existed centuries before Jesus.

BTW, I don't know any Witches who sacrifice their children, do you?

I find your bile quote detestable and insulting. Have anything you'd like to offer about Jews or any other religions, while you're busy condemning, your holiness?

[Elendil3119]

I am sorry if my post sounded rude or offending. It was not meant in that way; perhaps I should have inserted a smiley somewhere in there? :)

What I am saying is that why is Christianity not good enough? If you claim to be a Christian, why do you feel the need to gather from other cults or religions? If you do not believe in Christianity as a full and complete religion in itself, and not lacking anything, then I don't think you can claim to be a Christian. I think you need to explain yourself a little better. Do you believe everything the Bible has to say?
What passes for modern mainstream "Christianity" is a rehash of Zorastrianism and aspects of many other Messianic Martyr cults that existed centuries before Jesus.
So you think that Christianity is a derived religion?
BTW, I don't know any Witches who sacrifice their children, do you?
I think you are misunderstanding this passage. It is not requiring someone to do ALL of these things to be "detestable to the Lord"; rather, it is listing certain practices that the Lord does not approve of, particularly witchcraft and the casting of spells.
I find your bile quote detestable and insulting. Have anything you'd like to offer about Jews or any other religions, while you're busy condemning, your holiness?
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

[Athelas]

>If you do not believe in Christianity as a full and complete religion in itself, and not lacking anything, then I don't think you can claim to be a Christian.<:rolleyes:

Ah, a Fundie.

If you took the time to study the specific religions I mentioned you would discover the parallels for yourself.

I ask again, How exactly does Zen contradict Jesus? Take your time.

[Lifeling]

Why aren't you listening to him ethelas? He asked you several questions which you ignored... Also you did not answer to his quote on the verse which states that whitchcraft is detestable to God... How can you justify being a witch when it so clearly states that all witchcraft is evil...

It's sad how someone can say "Ah a fundie", like it's rare to find someone who follows the teachings of the bible and only those teachings... Why are so many people trying to compromise the bible, the word of God?

[Athelas]

"it's rare to find someone who follows the teachings of the bible and only those teachings... "

No, they are as common as cattle, but once you know that you're dealing with a closed mind, some discussions become a waste of time.

"Deuteronomy 18:10-12 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consul the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. (NIV)"

Firt of all, the author makes the perennial mistake of lumping spiritual mediums, psychics, and spellcasters of ANY faith under the name "Witch." Witches do not worship an evil god, they worship the Goddess as the creator. Christian accusations that they were worshipping the Christian being Satan led to the torture and burnings of nine million men women and children. You can love Jesus and follow him without following the hateful and bloodthirsty Israeli war-and-storm god Jehovah. Detestable indeed. The Bible also commands "Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live," so since you swallow the bible hook, line and sinker, do you not feel obliged to hunt down and murder Witches? I believe Jehovah ordered quite a lot of genocide, individual murders and a fistful of abominations against non-Jews. So think twice before you assume the moral high ground around Witches; you're doing so from atop the pile of corpses of nine million victims of "Christianity."

"My law is love unto all beings. Mine is the secret door that opens upon the land of youth, and Mine is the cup of the wine of life, that is the Cauldron of Cerridwen, that is the Holy Grail of Immortality. I give the knowledge of the spirit eternal, and beyond death, I give peace, freedom and reunion with those who have gone before. Nor do I demand aught in sacrifice, for behold, I am the Mother of all things, and My love is poured out upon the Earth."

Hear now the words of the Star Goddess, the dust of whose feet are the hosts of Heaven, whose body encircles the universe:

"I who am the beauty of the green earth, and the white moon among the stars, do call upon your souls...arise, and come unto Me. For I am the soul of nature that gives life to the universe. From Me all things proceed, and unto Me they must return. Let My worship be in the heart that rejoiceth, for behold - all acts of love and pleasure are My rituals. Let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honour and humility, mirth and reverence within you. And you who seek to know Me, know that thy seeking and yearning will avail thee not, unless thou knowest this mystery: that if that which you seek you findest not within thee, you will never find it without, for behold - I have been with thee from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire."
~from The Charge of the Goddess

Any god or mortal who has a problem with the above is beneath my concern.

http://witchvox.com/

This is an excellent source of information about Witches.

[Thomas Baggins]

Well it seems that some people have good discusions going on in here so I'll leave them be. I just wanted to rephrase my earlies statment about being a "more liberal type Christian" Cause that's not exactly what I am.

I do believe witchcraft is agains't what the Bible teaches though so I will say this:

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.(AV)
That verse is under the subject of Old Testament Christians, and if I belive corectly the Old Testament teachings do not usually apply to modern day Christians, so if true that verse would not apply anyway.

[Athelas]

Since the beginning, there has ever been only one quest: union with the Creator. This has manifested as different religions; some on a more direct path than others. Some religions teach that the journey ends at a state of being in the presence of the Creator. Hinduism, Zen (a method, not a religion), Buddhism, Witchcraft, and Gnostic Christianity all share the higher goal of Union. There may be other religions that also aspire to this union that could be just as valid. The simplest practice is to approach the Creator with a clear mind and a loving heart. Jesus described this union when he said ?I and my father are one.? Tibetan Buddhism describes the state of union with the creator as the Chikai Bardo: the Primary Clear Light seen at the moment of death. In Witchcraft, Lesser magic deals with spells and influencing the material world. Higher Magic is the Witch name for the quest.

[Thomas Baggins]

Well I don't know about 'one quest' but the reason God put us on earth was for His Glory, so that should be our one quest, to glorify God! "The end for which all things were created was God's Glory"

[Talierin]

First of all, the author makes the perennial mistake of lumping spiritual mediums, psychics, and spellcasters of ANY faith under the name "Witch."

Read it again, he is not lumping them all together under "witch", it is a list of practices God finds detestable.

Witches do not worship an evil god, they worship the Goddess as the creator. Christian accusations that they were worshipping the Christian (I think you mean the Goddess?) being Satan led to the torture and burnings of nine million men women and children. You can love Jesus and follow him without following the hateful and bloodthirsty Israeli war-and-storm god Jehovah.

Jehovah in the OT is not hateful, nor is he bloodthirsty... He was dealing with his chosen children as any father might when they disobeyed. The Israelis were to be a holy people in the midst of a very unholy world, so they might pave the way for Jesus, who was (and is) to save the world from our sins. But they, of course, being human, strayed from the path quite often, and God was forced to deal with them, as a father would. If you read through the OT, you can see He always gave them a second, and a third, and a fourth, and so on chances to redeem themselves, instead of just wiping them all out. To just wipe them out would have been the mark of a bloodthirsty god. And as for the non-israelis, I believe God made a way in jewish law for them to become part of the chosen people, if they chose, so it's not like He didn't care about them. I don't think God WANTS to kill or hurt people, but it's His only option when they refuse and reject Him. A good father punishes his children when they are bad, so that they will learn the correct way to behave.

And you cannot believe in the true Jesus if you deny Jehovah, for they are one and the same. You either believe in God as having three parts, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or you don't believe in any of them at all.

The Bible also commands "Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live," so since you swallow the bible hook, line and sinker, do you not feel obliged to hunt down and murder Witches? I believe Jehovah ordered quite a lot of genocide, individual murders and a fistful of abominations against non-Jews. So think twice before you assume the moral high ground around Witches; you're doing so from atop the pile of corpses of nine million victims of "Christianity."

Again, that verse is in the OT, and the israelis then were being taught to be holy, and the only way for that was for them to cut every bad and evil influence out of their nation, and that included witches. Nowadays Christians would not kill witches, even though we do think your religion is false (I will not hold it against you, because God tells me to love all people, nor will I say I am more holy than you, because I know I still have a long ways to go). And yes, I do know about Salem, and I am sad about it, for it should not have happened... but I think people need to stop holding the past on other people. Following Christianity is an incredibly hard path, and we often falter.

Oh and Thomas, yes, some of the OT laws do not apply anymore, because Jesus has come to remove the law from us and become the law Himself, so we may find holiness in Him and not by following the law. But that doesn't mean the law is irrelavent, it is still a good guidebook for morality. You must look into the context of each law, and think about why God gave the Israelites that particular law (such as the killing witches one), in order to determine its worth nowadays. Much of the NT has done this, especially in the teachings of Paul and Peter. They, through God, have set down moral guidelines for us to follow now on our journey to God.

No, they are as common as cattle, but once you know that you're dealing with a closed mind, some discussions become a waste of time.

I do not have a closed mind, I simply know where I stand, and I have enough courage in God to stand up for what I believe.
And when you say "Any god or mortal who has a problem with the above is beneath my concern." , you are showing yourself to have a closed mind.

One last thing, I don't know a whole lot about Zen or Zorastrianism, so a explanation of what exactly they teach, why you think they're compatible with Christianity would be nice...

[LOTRfan2]

Talierin- from what I'm reading of ur posts- ur a God kid, 2! Awesome!! Let'z PM sometime & talk! :)

Also, *from reading ur posts* I beleive that ur totally right!! Never be afraid 2 stand up 4 Jesus!! N yes, witches are on God's list of "detestables".....That doesn't mean He doesn't still love you, but it does mean that he hates what you're practicing. He (being God) says it's of Satan and is wrong. (While I agree with this, I'm not condemning you for practicing this) I hope that you'll accept Jesus Christ someday,Atheles!

LOTRfan2

[Athelas]

>I hope that you'll accept Jesus Christ someday,Atheles!<

And here we are back at the start again.

I AM A GNOSTIC CHRISTIAN! I love Jesus, I have an intimate personal relationship with Jesus, and we accept one another.

>why you think they're compatible with Christianity would be nice...<

Please see my previous post.

Anyone who wishes to learn more about other world religions mentioned in this thread can get a good thumbnail from

http://beliefnet.com

Blessed Be

[HLGStrider]

Christianity believes in a personal God. Zen doesn't really. Buddah is not a god. God is not a person, God is a state of being (Nirvana). In Christianity God is a personality, not human, a spiritual being, not a state of being.
While you can be godlike and you can become a son of god and therefore become immortal, you can't become god in Christianity.


You can't really believe in both. One is right and one is wrong. . .I have no proof of which is and which isn't. If I did witnessing would be a whole lot easier. . .

I agree with Talierin. If you read the Bible in the Old Testament, Adultry is to be punished by death. Then one day they bring an adultress to Jesus and he says "Let the one who hasn't sinned throw the first stone."

I always took this scene to mark the begining of a very new age.

Similarly, a person cannot be a Christian and certain things at the same time, though I think they could be saved by grace. What I mean by Christian is a practicing Christian. If you really became a Christian once and truly believed, I believe it sticks as for being saved. If you afterwards reject it, I don't think you can truly expell Christ from your heart . He'll be there, but He won't be helping you much if you are doing things that go against his way.

So I wouldn't say that a witch can't be saved but I would say she can't be a witch and a practicing Christian at the same time.

I also believe there are paralels in religion because religion is the search for truth and human beings will sometimes find portions of truth in their search.

I believe the Bible is perfect. I believe that there is some truth in other religions, but not enough to really accept them.

I could say I am a lot of different religions because I believe in "Love thy neighbor" which is stated in several. However, only in Christianity is Jesus stated to be the son of God, so I believe in Christianity. Several other religions directly contradict this statement. So. . .some religions are wrong. . .I wouldn't want to believe in a religion that I thought was wrong.

[HLGStrider]

Let's take it another way, Athelas. . . You seem to have a problem with us doubting your Christianity. . . Well, let's view it as something similar but very different. . .

You and I are sitting together in a waiting room near Nov. 04 and I decide to strike up a typical conversation (This does not reflect your political beliefs, which I know little of. It's just por ejemplo).

Me: So, are you a republican or a democrat.
You: Republican.
Me: So am I. Cool. . .I'm very highly pro-life.
You: Well, actually I am pro-choice.
Me: Oh. . .well, at least we can agree on tax cuts.
You: Actually, I don't think they do any good and are only for the rich.
Me: Huh. . .School vouchers?
You: Basically a bad idea.
Me: Drug laws?
You: I'm for legalization.
Me: Huh. . .what's your stand on immigration?
You: Well, I side a lot with the democrats with that one but I don't really believe that makes me unworthy of being a republican.
Me: Well. . .envirnomental issues?
You: As Ralph Nadar once said. . .
Me: Never mind. . .Do you support the war on Terrorism?
You: I thought the whole Iraq thing was a bit premature. . .
Me: You said you were what?
You: Republican.
Me: Uh. . .why?
You: Well, I thought Ronald Reagan had a nice smile. . .

You see our thinking? Maybe you aren't that far off from the Christian base and political parties are a far cry from religion in most cases. . .so it comes down to, if you don't believe what Christianity says, why are you a Christian?

[Athelas]

I hope you realize what an apples/oranges, weak analogy that is.

I believe in Gnostic Christianity. Why don't you try reading up on it so that you can at least form an educated opinion? Better yet, if you just want to bash Gnostic Christians, why don't you open a thread for it?

Do you also inform Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists, etc that they aren't REAL Christians? Every denomination of Christianity thinks that they are the REAL Christians. I'm sure there are Catholics who KNOW that Protestants are not REAL Christians and vice versa. Look how many have killed each other over those little differences. Whether or not someone believes that I am a Christian has absolutely no effect on my relationship with Jesus.

[Eriol]

What is a Christian? I think a common ground definition would help here. I offer this: someone who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Now, Jesus taught that he was the Son of God. He taught that he was existing before the world was created, and that he would always exist. So you can't very much say he is a "wise man" in the likes of Confucius, Buddha, etc. If you believe in his teachings, you have to believe he is the Son of God.

The same goes for Gnostic Christianity, which means a "closed, secret, only for initiates" Christianity. Christ thanked God for "hiding these truths from the proud and showing them to the small and weak" (paraphrase). So it can't be said he endorsed Gnostic Christianity. Unless you have another meaning for the expression "Gnostic Christianity".

It would help if we knew what our words mean before arguing.

You can say you have other books, other traditions, contradicting the Bible and showing that Christ did, in fact, teach Gnostic Christianity. But then we would get into the question of authenticity. The Gospel and other books of the New Testament were accepted as reliable and correct immediately, by people who had seen and talked with Christ. All other books written about Christ in that period were rejected.

A lot of very convincing evidence will be needed to prove that contemporary Christians were wrong and present-day Gnostics are right regarding Christ's teachings.

So, there is another option left: to abandon the claim to believe in Christ's teachings and to uphold "Gnostic Christianity" even if Christ did not teach that. But then the name "Christian" does not apply to anyone who believes in that, since they would not be believing in Christ's teachings.

There is one issue: What is the truth? -- which is philosophical; and another: what did Christ teach? -- which is historical. You can believe that killing (or loving) cats is correct, but you can't say that Christ taught that, with the evidence we have.

By the way, I thought Elgee's analogy was perfect -- it highlighted the problem of definition. One's person definition of "Republican" was different from another. The same goes for "Christian" in this argument.

To argue about words is interesting, but time-consuming. It's better to argue about concepts. And so we must make our words conform to the same definition. Otherwise you can claim you are a "Christian", Athelas, and we can claim you're not, and we will be both right, since each will be attaching a different concept to the word. Not really conducive to understanding. Imagine if our words meant something different for every person we met...

And please, don't adopt this "hurt" attitude. We are trying to help you; we believe we are right. I assume you believe you are right and therefore you want to help us, to make us agree with you. There is no need to make ad hominem attacks, generalizations, and emotional statements (I'm thinking about "Ah, a Fundie" here, "get an educated opinion", etc.).

I realize that people can get upset or even angry when their beliefs are questioned -- but it is only by surviving the questioning that the belief gets stronger. You should welcome so many people wanting to test your faith.

[Athelas]

Well so much for Christian fellowship. Is there a thread here where Catholics point out how Protestants are not REAL Christians and vice versa? How can anyone call themselves a Christian if they deny the authority of the Pope, given directly by Jesus to Peter? To do so is to reject Jesus himself (I don't believe that, I use it as an example.) That is in the same spirit as these rumours and conjecture you are vomiting up out of ignorance. Ignorance is forgivable. Eriol, your "insights" into Gnostic Christianity are vapid and just completely false. Here is a helpful link if you would like to actually learn about my religion:

http://www.gnosis.org/

You will find the Nag Hammadi texts and the Gospel of Thomas especially enlightening.

Namaste

[Eriol]

My friend Athelas, I carefully refrained from any insight about what Gnostic Christianity is about. I just gave the definition of the word "gnostic". I did not address anything contained in the Gospel of Thomas (of which I am aware), nor in any other texts.

Sorry for the vomit.

Enlighten me, by all means. Cure me of my ignorance. But at the same time, please answer to my points.

As for Catholics and Protestants, I fail to see the relevance here. We all accept the same texts as gospel -- you accept some other texts. So it is not really a similar position. We are not talking about the interpretation of Paul's epistles, or about the nature of Hell -- we are talking about which texts are acceptable as gospel. No disagreement between Protestants and Catholics here.

[LOTRfan2]

Colossians 1:9-4

"For this reason, since the day we heard about you we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the kowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. We pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, gorwing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might sot hat you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you to share in the inheiritance of the saints in the kingdom fo light. FOr he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

The Heresy:
Spirit is good, matter is evil
Ref: Colossians 1:15-20
Paul's answer: God created heaven and earth for his (God's) glory. ***evil CANNOT glorify God***

Heresy:
One must follow ceremonies, rituals, & restrictions in order to be saved or perfected.
Ref: Colossians 2:11, 16-23, 3:11.
Paul's answer: These were only shadows that ended when Christ came. He is ALL you need to be saved.

Heresy:
One must deny the body and live in strict asceticism.
Ref: Colossians 2:20-23
Paul's Answer: Asceticism is no help in conquering evil thoughts, and desires. Instead, it leads to pride.

Heresy:
Angels must be worshipped.
Ref: Colossians 2:18
Paul's Answer: Angels are NOT to be worshipped. Christ ALONE is worthy of worship.

Heresy:
Christ could not be both human and divine.
Ref: 1:15-20, 2:2,3.
Paul's Answer: Christ is GOd, in the flesh; he is the eternal One. One head of the body, first in everything, supreme.

Heresy:
One must obtain "secret knowledge" in order to be saved/perfected- and this was not available to everyone.
Ref: Colossians 2:2,18
Paul's Answer: God's secret is Christ, and he's been revealed to all.

Heresy: One must adhere to human wisdom, traditon, and philosophies.
Ref: 2:4,8-10; 3:15-17
Paul's Answer: By themselves, these can be misleading, and shallow b/c they have human origin; instead we should remember what Christ taught and follow his words as our ultimate authority.

Heresy:
It is even better to combine aspects of several religions.
Ref: 2:10.
Paul's answer: You have everything when you have CHrist; he is all-sufficient.

There's nothing wrong with immorality.
Ref: 3:1-11
Paul's Answer:Get rid of sin and evil b/c you have been chosen by God to live a NEW life as a representative of the Lord Jesus.

I'm not sure if all of these have something to do w/ gnosticism, but I know some of them do. ALL of Paul's answers are based on GOD's word and what Jesus Christ taught. You cannot beleive in gnosticism and go to Heaven.

LOTRfan2

[HLGStrider]

Christian if they deny the authority of the Pope, given directly by Jesus to Peter?

I assume you are referring to the part where Jesus calls Simon Peter and says upon this rock I will base my church. The Catholic and protestant churches do interpet this differently.
As a protestant I believe the protestant interpetation. It makes sense to me.
A verse or two before this Jesus had asked Peter "Who am I?" or "Who do you believe I am?" and Peter answered, "You are the Christ the son of the living God." (I don't have my Bible on hand right now, so I can't give references and exact quotes). According to the Protestant view, Jesus was referring to Peter's statement, the rock of his faith, not the rock of the man. The catholic's take it literally to refer to the man. . .

There is a similar arguement over communion, whether or not it is really his body and blood or whether he was speaking figuratively (and there is no denying that Christ occasionally spoke figuratively, using parables. We are by no means made of salt, though he did call us the salt of the earth. We don't have wool, though he called us his sheep.).

I told you my analogy wasn't perfect. No analogy is. . . but there are definitely similar conotations. A religions is a beliefs system. A politcal party is made up of similar political beliefs (policies. . .). If you disagree with the beliefs of a political system, why are you a member of that party? If you disagree with the beliefs of a religion, why are you of that religion?

Would you like to explain where I was wrong in this judgement, that you do disagree with many of the main beliefs of Christianity. . .

and in my arguement I wasn't dealing with gnostic Christianity, which I have never researched. You asked for where Zen went against Christianity, and I told you. I will leave gnostic Christianity up to one of the members who doesn't have my schedule and has time to research it (I'd already read a little bit on Buddism about a month ago, so I felt all right with answering that queary).

[syongstar]

When Jesus was in the garden,he felt sadness yet pardon.
He knew all the evil that ever was,so whatever we've know pales in comparison.When he was whipped so cruelly at the post, he knew perserverience with the holy ghost.When a crown of thorns peirced his holy head, he knew no anger but courage instead.So, when problems peirce your brain, let his courage heal the pain.As he pulled the cross along patience was the holy song.When we quote "father I commit myself to thee" we rise above problems and become truly free.

[Gandalf_White]

Wow you guys are really getting into some big discussion here. I am a Catholic and I thought I would clear up some of this Catholic/Protestant belief.

I assume you are referring to the part where Jesus calls Simon Peter and says upon this rock I will base my church. The Catholic and protestant churches do interpet this differently.
As a protestant I believe the protestant interpetation. It makes sense to me.
A verse or two before this Jesus had asked Peter "Who am I?" or "Who do you believe I am?" and Peter answered, "You are the Christ the son of the living God." (I don't have my Bible on hand right now, so I can't give references and exact quotes). According to the Protestant view, Jesus was referring to Peter's statement, the rock of his faith, not the rock of the man. The catholic's take it literally to refer to the man. . .

Jesus did say to Peter in Matthew 16:17-18
"Blessed are you Simon! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it."

The name Peter means rock which is why Jesus changed his name from Simon to Peter. Jesus was to build his church upon Peter himself. Peter being the first leader of the church, the pope.

There is a similar arguement over communion, whether or not it is really his body and blood or whether he was speaking figuratively (and there is no denying that Christ occasionally spoke figuratively, using parables. We are by no means made of salt, though he did call us the salt of the earth. We don't have wool, though he called us his sheep.).

I know that Jesus often speak with parables and analogies and does not literally mean what he says sometimes but look at John 6:53-55
"Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed."

Jesus clearly states here that he was not speaking in analogy "my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed" He tells us that in order to have a life in Him we must eat of his body and blood.

[Lifeling]

Athelas, I am not questioning your christianity that is not for me to judge... I am trying to understand why you think witchcraft (and the compromise of God's word) is acceptable. As shown through scripture in earlier posts it is an abomination to God... I am a christian, and although it is commanded in scripture not to lie, sometimes I lie... But I do not embrace this and become a liar... I ask forgiveness and move on. It is clear that lying and witchcraft are sins... for you to say you are a witch, is denying the power of Jesus over sin in your life... which in turn is denying his sacrifice on the cross, which in turn sets you outside the boundaries of his grace...

I John 5:18 "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him."

One more issue...
you imply that Jesus is a replacement of the old testament God (the father).. and yet Jesus's main purpose was not to replace God but to destroy the sin that seperates us from God so that we could be with him...

John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Gandalf_White
I know that Jesus often speak with parables and analogies and does not literally mean what he says sometimes but look at John 6:53-55
"Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed."

Jesus clearly states here that he was not speaking in analogy "my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed" He tells us that in order to have a life in Him we must eat of his body and blood.

First, I agree with HLG on the Peter and rock issue. As far as New Testament Christians are concerned, Paul was more the leader of the early Christian church, not Peter and Peter never really took a commanding stance as leader of the church at all. The biggest reason for popes was to establish a leader at a main center of Christianity (at first, Jerusalem, then Rome).

Second, transubstantiation has always been questioned by good Catholics throughout all the Middle Ages and I have yet to meet a Catholic who partakes in mass that believes the actual substance of the host and wine become body and blood. The fact that the host is still a white, melt in your mouth wafer from before the priest's blessing to when it pops in your mouth shows that it is all symbolic. The exact way that Christ intended it to be. Jesus established the communion service as a symbolic way to remember the sacrifice of Christ, and what He did for us, "do this in remembrance of me". Were Christ not to have it taken symbolically, then the disciples should have been eating His body when He was taken off the cross. There is no dictate in the scriptures to support transubstantiation as far as the communion service goes, but to eat and remember Christ's sacrifice and treat the bread and wine as symbols that we can remember it by.

[Athelas]

>Spirit is good, matter is evil

One must follow ceremonies, rituals, & restrictions in order to be saved or perfected.

One must deny the body and live in strict asceticism.

Angels must be worshipped.

Christ could not be both human and divine.

One must obtain "secret knowledge" in order to be saved/perfected- and this was not available to everyone.

One must adhere to human wisdom, traditon, and philosophies.

It is even better to combine aspects of several religions.

There's nothing wrong with immorality.<

Not a single one of these has anything remotely to do with Gnostic Christianity. I think you will find that Protestants, Catholics, Gnostic Christians and many other denominations do adhere to different scriptures; those chapters in the Catholic Bible, Judith and Tobit, do not appear in the King James Bible; the Gospel of Thomas which the Gnostics believe does not appear in Protestant or Catholic bibles. Arguments over the validity of this sacrament or that scripture have caused incredible human suffering and death, none of which I think Jesus had in mind when he told us to LOVE one another. Everyone is oh so proprietary and adamant about asserting their definition of AUTHENTIC Christianity that fellowship is forgotten. All of you who have so kindly informed that my religion is an abomination can go abominate yourselves. You condemn what you know nothing about; you're the worst kind of liars, and I shove that lie right back down your filthy throats.

[syongstar]

I was raised a babtist,and I hated looking at a cruxifix.Recently a person found my post on the internet seeking wisdom and sent me a rosary.I noticed that the mysteries of the rosary relate to the spheres of cabala if you see Kether as ain,aine soph,& ain sopher,and Malkuth as elements.When you relate the mysteries to the spheres like the nativity=tiperah,the cruxifixion=malkuth,then the moment of death would be yesod,the sphere of moon energy.When you look at a cross it'slike a new moon ,empty but when you think about the inner meaning behind it you glow with inner light like the moon.I wrote this about the sorrowful mysteries because it healed me;
When Jesus was in the Garden,he felt sadness yet pardon.
He knew all the evil that ever was, so whatever we've know pales in comparison.When he was whipped so cruelly at the post he knew perserverense witht he holy ghost.When a crown of thorns peirced his holy head he knew no anger but courage instead.So when problems peirce your brain let his courage heal the pain.When we quote "father I commit myself to thee" we rise above problems and become truly free.
In Thomas Merton wrote about his teacher saying to change the word "charity" for "gentlemenly" in the 13th chaper of Corrinthians and I wonder if we are merly being gentlymenly

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Athelas
Arguments over the validity of this sacrament or that scripture have caused incredible human suffering and death, none of which I think Jesus had in mind when he told us to LOVE one another. Everyone is oh so proprietary and adamant about asserting their definition of AUTHENTIC Christianity that fellowship is forgotten. All of you who have so kindly informed that my religion is an abomination can go abominate yourselves. You condemn what you know nothing about; you're the worst kind of liars, and I shove that lie right back down your filthy throats.

I find it interesting that you love us even as you insult us, Athelas. For you love us, right? I mean, you just said that Christ wanted us to love one another, and that you accept his teachings by claiming to be a Christian.

Insults aside, you are quite correct in addressing the issue of authenticity -- it is the way out of this conundrum. Take the Gospel of Thomas. It is there in one of the links you posted, and I read it. There, some words are said to have been spoken by Christ. How can we be sure that it is authentic? I mean, I can write a text and claim to have been inspired by God, and to be registering the actual words of Christ.

This is a not a religious issue, but a historical one. I am not attacking or defending Gnostic Christianity, or the contents of the Gospel of Thomas. But I can state that one of the two things happened:

(a) The Gospel of Thomas was rejected by the early Church. If you accept that, you are bound to ask yourself why. Why, indeed? Why did the Church choose some books over others and claimed that those particular books were most accurate? Remember, we are dealing with people who met Christ, talked with him, learned from him... the people who are in the best position to judge the authenticity of any book. These people rejected the Gospel of Thomas, and therefore it is not authentic. It is quite enough for me. If it is not quite enough for you, it is because you are attracted to the concepts espoused in that book, and not in the history behind it. Any unbiased person should agree that if the Church, people who knew Christ, objected to it, then it is not accurate.

(b) The Gospel of Thomas was kept hidden from the Church and therefore was never 'rejected'. But if you accept that you are accepting Gnosticism as a religion of secrets, where only the instructed persons can achieve the truth and the others must remain ignorant. I agree that this can be what Christ taught. When I quote Christ as thanking God for revealing this truth to the little ones and keeping it from the wise, I am just quoting a book, and my source can be faulty. So I guess it comes to individual belief at this point. Why would God create a religion of secrets? Why would only a few people be allowed to learn of it, if it is supposed to save all? Perhaps, indeed, the early Church, down to the other 11 Apostles, were wickedly trying to keep this truth from reaching the world -- or were ignorant of what Christ really meant, even after living with him and listening to him for years.

To address that we would have to study our conception of God, the Old Testament, etc. etc. I think it is not "in character" with the Old Testament God, but then again you do not believe in Him. (By the way, the Gospel of Thomas talks about the Father... how can you not believe in God -- Jehovah -- if it is in that book?). And, in any way, I think option (a) is correct.

God bless you.

[Éomond]

"What will people think when they here that I'm a Jesus Freak?
What will people do when they find that it's true?
I don't really care if they label me a Jesus Freak,
There 'aint no desipe in the truth"

dc Talk

[Link]

Jesus was black.

[Talierin]

Originally posted by Link
Jesus was black.

Actually, He prolly would have looked Jewish or middle-eastern, with light brown skin ;)

[HLGStrider]

There's a new musical about Jesus where Micheal Tait, a black man, plays Jesus, however. He's a good singer, so it should be interesting. . .

I typed all this up last night because I didn't have time to deal with GW's post before I had to get off. . .it is kind of a side track, so you can ignore it if you want to.


As I don't know that much about Catholic theology, I don't like to debate Catholic/Protestant issues all that much. I was just stating where the Protestants have room for dissent in this particular situation. This could get us into a very round about side track, but I don't mind doing that for a few posts. . .You've stated your side of the arguement, and I will more completely state mine. . .If you want to go further, that's what debates are for, but it will be distracting.

I was not intending to convert anyone to my Protestant views, just to state that they are not unfounded. I know that some Catholics believe that Protestants will not be saved because of these differences, but I think that is the minority. Basically, this is one case that, while I believe myself to be right, I don't mind if others do not believe the way I do. If someone who is unsure about it asks, I will try to convince them I'm right, but if someone who is sure brings this up in order to convert me to their belief, I will not try all too dramatically to convince them.

I have two reasons of dissent from the Peter/Pope issue. The first I have already stated. Let's take that a verse back from where GW took it.
Matthew 16:15-19
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you loose on earth with be loosed in heaven."


According to Protestant theology the crux of the matter is "for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you. . ." This is referring to "You are the Christ." This is Peter's faith. Peter's faith is what makes him a rock. I think the Church, not the rock, is what the gates of Hades will not prevail against, so this doesn't have much to do with our arugement. . .I think you would say that the last verse. . ."And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . ." refers to Peter. I believe it refers to all believers, all who abide by that faith. It is a promise to all who believe that Christ is the Son of the Living God.
In my Bible (A New King James) it is cross referenced to John 1:12 "But as many as received Him to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believed in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (I went into 13 because they seemed connected) and Ephesians 2:20, (Speaking of the household of God) "having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone." This would seem to suggest more than just Peter being the rock.

In fact, this arguement is furthered by the fact that Jesus uses the exact same phrasing in Matthew 18:18 when speaking to all twelve of the disciples, not just Peter:
"Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." It goes on to say "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven."

This is not a promise just to Peter, but to all followers of Christ. At the very least it was to all of the twelve.

My other means of dissent is that Peter's "authority" was not accepted by a man of the time I view to be just as holy, i.e. Paul. Paul publicly rebuked Peter in at least one case and argued with him on other occassions. I don't remember a section of scripture where God punishes Paul for denying Peter is rightful authority over him.

Also, Peter was not celibate (he had a mother-in-law which to me suggests he would have had a wife) and didn't seem to rule as Pope's seem to, though he undeniably took a leadership position among the the disciples.

I personally have found more comfort in Paul's words than I ever found in Peter's, but that is probably the way I was raised. I started out most of my religous "training " with a group called Christ Life which I am not really a member of anymore (Considering the age I went to the meetings at, I was never really a "member."). It's based mostly on the part of Galations that states "It is no longer I that live but Christ who lives in me" and most of the talks the speaker used to give were based in Paul's epistles. I think it was the unorthodoxy of that movement which had made my family always a tad bit uncomfortable in conventional church settings. I think I will eventually over come this. I often feel a need to fellowship past what I am getting now. I actually fulfil this need by going on this website in some ways.

Where was I? Ah, yes. . .

The communion issue is a controversial one that it would be nice if we could settle, but it hasn't been settled since Wycliff first stated that even the mice who ate the crumbs knew it to be bread, not flesh. I truthfully wish that Protestants were more ceremonial about this ceremony. The grape juice and wafers seem a bit cavielier to me. It is one of the things I prefer about Catholics. However, I don't believe I could partake in this ceremony, because deep inside me I would always believe that it was bread and wine, not flesh and blood. This is why I respect that the Catholics will not have communion with a non-Catholic. There is a difference of beliefs there that would make for a clash. It has to mean something. To me it would be a little irreverant to claim that we were dealing with Christ's actual flesh when I beieve it to be purely symbolic.

My Bible crossreferences that portion of John to Hebrews 10:5 "Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
'Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me."
Truthfully, Jesus's flesh did save us. It was Christ's body that was sacrificed to make our salvation possible. It says the bread which he shall give the world is his flesh. . .this does sound very metaphorical to me, not on the flesh part, but on the bread part. I think he was making the point that we need bread to survive (hence comparing it to the manna that saved the Isrealites from starvation), and to survive eternally we need his flesh, his sacrifice.

It's similar to the living water story, with the Samaritan woman. The difference being we don't have a living water ceremony because he never told us to drink water in remembrance of him. Again, we need water to survive. Again, we need Christ. Again, he makes the comparison, the linking. Again, I don't think this necessarily means that Christ is water nor does it necessarily mean to me that the bread is flesh.

I'm going to actually try to use the concordance my mom got me and check out the original word for something here and see if it backs up my side or yours or just confuses me. . .

(On a side note, other people could argue this much better than me. I am only a protestant because I agree with them on a few issues like this. I really am not very learned in their theology, having not been associated with a "real" church since I was six. . .my family doesn't stick with churches for long. I call myself a Baptist, but only because I agree with them on the speaking in tongues bit and have a lot of Baptist roots).

Ok. . .all of that word in that section are refered to as number 5415. .. I hope you don't mind me typing my thinking this way. . .I wonder what that means. . .I've never used this book before. . .he he. . .I was wondering why that didn't make sense. ..looked up the number in the Hebrew section when I needed the Greek. . .blah. . .Ok. . .the word is Phago. . .which does seem on your side because it means to eat, literally, meat. But it says it is used as an alternative to 2068 in certain tenses. . .so I have to check that out as well. . .this one is on my side, esthio, strengthened for a primary. I'd like to know what this definition means more clearly. . I don't like having to have a definition defined, but I can't figure out what strengthened for a primary means.

I looked it up in a dictionary. .. convinced that just means something about the way it is used gramatically and it can be cut down just to strengthened.

The reason I think Esthio would go for my side in this arguement would be because it would come out more like "Unless you take strength from the Son of man" or "are sustained by."However, I am not sure if this is one of the cases where Phago means esthio, so I think I just spent about twenty minutes on research which led to nothing. . .

[HLGStrider]

My other point to this is a little less complicated. I believe it refers only to Christ's sacrifice because I don't believe that it is necessary to take communion to be saved. For one thing, I don't believe God is tied down by our ceremonies in that way, even if He initiated them. For another, the thief on the cross was obviously saved without communion. However, he DID accept Christ's sacrifice (Christ's flesh, if you will).

Also, Christ states(Luke 22:19) "do this in rememberance of me" not, do this in order that you might be saved. . .

I just saw a place in Corinthians on this subject. . .I'll see what it says. . . 1st Corin. 11:26 "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes."

Nothing is said here about it literally being flesh and blood. . .though of course, negative evidence is a reasoning fallacy, so this doesn't prove anything. ..but it does seem to leave it open and undecided.

As I said, I don't plan to try and convince you, but I think there is room for debate on this issue, serious debate, not just one person stating the other to be wrong. This was one of the points of the reformation.

I think I can live without ever knowing the answer to this question and be saved without ever knowing the answer to this question. I am not a theologian. I haven't yet really researched it. However, I know my mother is of this opinion, and she has. I know that John Wycliff was of this opinion and he had. I know that the Protestant theologians for centuries believed it and they had. I don't think they were protesting this point just to be difficult or set themselves apart from the Catholics in another way. I think they really believed it, and for reasons.

I'm sure someone else can debate this better than I.

I know not all Christians agree on all subjects. The method of rapture, for instance. What exactly is speaking in tongues and how is it implemented? Can you lose your salvation or is it forever?

I'm sure the Bible has these answers, at least some of them, but we are crippled by the fact that the Bible was written in another langauge (more like three other languages) and some things are different in translation, and that some of it is hard to understand. Experts can disagree on it. I think that we can. Some of these issues are very important (Eternal security, for instance. I belive in it. I know many Christians who don't.). Others don't really do any good for us to argue about one way or the other (I personally would put the rapture/end of the world questions on this list. I really don't care all that much how I get taken up. It's going to happen the way it is going to happen, no matter how I believe it is going to happen.).

I would like to see theologians keep debating these things. If I get into a conversation with someone else about them, I will examine my beliefs more closesly (I really don't have any beliefs on the rapture one and my belief in the speaking of tongues one is fairly denominational though I think I could back it up in a pinch).

I don't prefer to have these debates in front of non-believers because they are confusing, not for baby-christians, let alone unchrisians. They are the meat not the milk. While they need to be discussed, they should not become heated, and I would prefer for them not to divide. Some of the denominations of Christianity were founded because people disagreed on one thing. . .while others were huge splits over things that really mattered. It is always sad when we start to say "I am of Paul or I am of Apollos or I am of Cephus" if you get my meaning. However, I think denominations do help keep the fighting down, even if they do divide. Human debates are not always pretty, and as long as we respect each other's right to disagree (Even if we believe each other to be wrong and try to convince each other that they are wrong...), and treat each other with love, we are still acting as Christians.

[Thorin]

Nice job on the posts, LG. Your logic and reasoning is to be admired, as well as your desire to go back and understand the original language. One way that we were taught in Studies in the Pentateuch was to take that word and read it into the English translation of all the places it occured and get a picture from its surroundings as to what that word means. It works pretty good and it erases the (sometimes wrong) english translation of the word from your memory and replaces it only with the Hebrew or Greek word which gives you a better understanding.

Seeing as I've exhausted the "hell" issue (or said as much as I can say without repeating myself (except maybe for LOTRfan2, I like repeating myself for her, over and over and over.....:rolleyes: ), so another topic to discuss would be nice. The secret rapture and second coming of Christ are other misunderstood topics by quite a few Christians and the basis of fallacy for books such as the"Left Behind" series. If anyone wants to study what the scriptures say, I would be more than happy to do that. Eriol and I are getting into some good stuff about what happens when we die and the state of the dead in the OT and the NT.

[Elendil3119]

As a student of the Greek language, I've experienced how much theological significance and meaning is lost in the English translations. For instance, the one passage that says "Anyone in Jesus does not sin..." (to paraphrase; I couldn't find the passage:rolleyes: ) really is saying "Anyone in Jesus will not continue in sin." There is a huge difference. The Greek present tense usually conveys a continuous aspect, which is not always easy to translate into understandable English.

Thorin, I think the issue of eschatology would be a good one to bring up. There is much misunderstanding and misinterpretation on the subject in the Church. I am more than willing to participate in a discussion on the topic, but we should probably start a new thread, and give this "hi-jacked" one back to its original inhabitants. ;)

[HLGStrider]

I'm glad Thorin likes my reasoning. . .I didn't think that was an especially well written post. . .a tad bit chaotic. . .oh well.

[LOTRfan2]

Hey, take Jesus' words for what they say. Those who are in Him will NOT continue in sin.

LOTRfan2

[LOTRfan2]

I hope you know, (whomever the gnostic is, can't remember user names that well) that I'm praying for you.

LOTRfan2

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by LOTRfan2
I hope you know, (whomever the gnostic is, can't remember user names that well) that I'm praying for you.


You are praying for Athelas...why? Because his beliefs are other than your own? :confused:

[Eriol]

I suppose she's praying for Athelas because it is a good thing to do, both for Athelas's sake and for her own. At least this is why I pray for Athelas. After all this is not a matter of 'taste', we all believe we are right here. And therefore we want others to share in the truth. it is only when we are not sure that it is the truth that we see other beliefs as just that, "other beliefs".

Thank God we can trust in our reason (?) to find the truth. Otherwise we would not be able to talk at all about anything, and not only religion.

But this is not what I wanted to post, I wanted to post about Catholics x Protestants, as this thread seems to be going in that direction. The matter of Peter as the head of the early Church.

Well, we can interpret the Bible in many ways, but one thing is for sure -- Peter was considered by all involved to be the head of the Church. All "sees" (spelling?) in Europe deferred to Rome, both during Peter's life and after his death. And this remained so for a long time. It is noteworthy that Rome was not the only see founded by Peter, he also founded Antioch's (at least), and so more than one bishop could claim to be "Peter's successor" -- but they never did. It was always Rome.

And this means that when we interpret the Bible to mean that Peter and his successors were not supposed to be the head of the Church, we are refusing the interpretation that was accepted by the early Church, again, people who lived with Christ, spoke with Him, etc. etc. We are going against the interpretation of the Apostles -- including Paul.

(Paul's mention of his rebuking of Peter is, if anything, indicative of the high regard that he had for Peter. We don't hear him speaking about everyone he rebuked. Why would he single out Peter? Because Peter was the leader of the Church, and therefore he was disagreeing with the leader of the Church -- something worthy of mention as startling. Peter was not the first Pope to be rebuked publicly, not the first to err, not the first to sin... the contents of the rebuking are not really important when you think of that).

EDIT: What a funny sentence, "Peter was not the first Pope to..." hehe. What I mean is, of course, he was not the only Pope to...

We must remember that the writings in the Bible were not the only thing Jesus ever said, and perhaps not even the most important as seen from the point of view of his contemporaries. The New Testament had not even been written, much less organized. There are many indications in the Bible itself that Jesus said much more than what we read there (The opening of Luke, the end of John...). So when we disagree with these people regarding Peter's primacy, we must also remember that we are disagreeing with people who not only had lived through what we know only in writing, but also knew more -- much more! -- about Jesus and the Church than we do today.

[LOTRfan2]

I'm praying for everyone on these boards, whether ur saved or not. I'm praying especially for Athelas b/c of reasons that none of you would understand, and because it seems like when I go against something someone else believes in that I get penalized for it (no, I'm not complaining, just observing), I'm not really gonna get into why I'm praying for Athelas. Jesus knows my heart motives, Athelas knows I'm praying, and that's all that matters. To GOD be the glory!

LOTRfan2

[Kailita]

*Pokes her head in*

Am I allowed to say that I love Jesus, too?

Wow. This thread has come a long way. From shout outs about Christian music and Jesus Freaks to deep discussions over Catholic/Protestant issues and the like. Hmm.

Well, all I have to say is that there are some great people in this thread who I have a lot of respect for, many with different views...and all these different views have some good points to back them up, though it can be mind-boggling sometimes (:confused:...:rolleyes: )...but in the end, if you're a Christian and fully trusting Jesus and Jesus alone for the salvation of your soul, then the little issues won't matter so much. As the body of Christ, we shouldn't let trivial things divide us, but we should be united under Him. But I don't sense a spirit of division here, just a hunger to fully understand the truths of His word and the way it should be followed, and that's good. :) God bless.

[HLGStrider]

It's basically a good idea, if a little impractical, to pray for everyone. . .it probably could be done. . .there have been times I just felt like praying for someone at random and I did. Once I was lying in bed at night and I started just going down the list of people that I know and praying for them, which felt really odd and wasn't really my idea. . .not something I usually do.

[LOTRfan2]

U can definitly pray 4 everyone! :P U don't have 2 mention every single person by name, I just say "for the Tolkien Board Members", God knows each and every person so much more than they know themselves, and He knows everything b4 u think it....ya'll get my point! :P I will continue 2 pray, and hopefully God will raise up other true Christians & prayer warriors!

-LOTRfan2-

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Eriol
I suppose she's praying for Athelas because it is a good thing to do, both for Athelas's sake and for her own. At least this is why I pray for Athelas. After all this is not a matter of 'taste', we all believe we are right here. And therefore we want others to share in the truth. it is only when we are not sure that it is the truth that we see other beliefs as just that, "other beliefs".


While I find nothing wrong with praying for every human being, I do think it is rather 'unflattering' to single out an individual and pray for them in order to 'enlighten' them or 'set them on the right path'. Such altruism stinks of fallacy - in my humble opinion.

[Eriol]

I'll be praying for you then, ithrynluin :D

hehe.

Sorry if I sounded cranky. My point was simply that prayer is good in itself. Reasons behind the prayer are not important. Even if you pray to gain "good points" with Santa Claus, it is a good thing.

I also wanted to say something nice in favor of LotRfan2...

Of course, the way you put it, it is fallacious. We should pray for ourselves also, we are never sure that we are "in the right path". The prayer is not "Lord, make him believe what I believe", but rather "Lord, show me the truth, and show him the truth as well". In the case in point, it is not between LotR and Athelas, it is between LotR and God.

But we should not be arguing over this. Sorry again.

[HLGStrider]

I think there are some people who try to use "I'm praying for you" as an insult, but I think they are few and far between. However, I have noticed that some atheist/agnostic types tend to take it as an insult no matter how you mean it. I mean, some of them could say, "I have cancer." and then when you tell them your praying for them they get annoyed. . .which is sad. I have personally stated that I wouldn't mind a Muslim or follower of religion other than Christianity praying for me, though I would doubt that it would do any good. I don't see why atheists can't take that the same way. . .

[LOTRfan2]

I tink Eriol is kinda right.......not sure tho cuz my brain's not workin' 2 gr8 2day so I cna't really think 2 well.......heehee

I'm definitly not tryin' 2 insult anyone at all by praying for them! Like I said, the reasons are gravy as long as God knows! :)

LOTRfan2

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Eriol

My point was simply that prayer is good in itself. Reasons behind the prayer are not important. Even if you pray to gain "good points" with Santa Claus, it is a good thing.


I never questioned or had an issue with praying being good in itself. The reasons, however, do matter. I don't think someone praying 'please let that man die, I hate him' is such a good thing.

Originally posted by HLGStrider
I have personally stated that I wouldn't mind a Muslim or follower of religion other than Christianity praying for me, though I would doubt that it would do any good. I don't see why atheists can't take that the same way. . .

Would you care to elaborate please?

By 'I would doubt that it would do any good' do you mean that:

1. Prayer is really worthless, but believers of any religion do it nonetheless

OR

2. Since religions other than your own are 'obviously' at fault, their followers' prayers are also meaningless and futile ...

[Inderjit S]

will continue 2 pray, and hopefully God will raise up other true Christians & prayer warriors! posted by LOTR_fan2

Yes...but since I'm a non-Christian and therefore a Satanist (As you implied in the 'Hell' thread) why are you praying for me and others?

Why are you so stubbornly preaching for one religion discounting others as Satanists? Quite frankly I don't want YOURE prayers. If you indeed are right, and I am worshiping Hell or whatever then I'm GLAD that I'm worshipping a leader that doesn't discriminate-Satan. So save your prayers.

(My 'Satanic religion' BTW is Sikhism, a Indian religion, quite large, but not in comparison to Hinduism and Islam and we accept other peoples beliefs of god.)

Elgee why is the prayer of people of a different religion innefective for you? :confused:

[Elendil3119]

Ithy, each religion believes in their own god or supreme being of some sort. Christianity is not an exception. We believe in the God of the Bible, and therefore hold that He is the one and only true God. From our perspective, those who worship different god(s) are not correct in their thinking and practices. From your perspective, all religions are wrong, and there is no god. None of us are trying to impress our views on you, and you don't need to take it that way. If you don't want to become a Christian and/or don't like Christianity, there's really no reason to post in a thread like this.

[Ithrynluin]

each religion believes in their own god or supreme being of some sort. Christianity is not an exception.

I am not making Christianity an exception - there are both those religions that preach 'better' and those that preach 'worse' things from my point of view. But since this thread was so aptly named Where'z all my Jesus Freaks!??! Christianity is what we are discussing.

If you don't want to become a Christian and/or don't like Christianity, there's really no reason to post in a thread like this.

As long as things are discussed in an intelligent, mature and peaceful manner, no one member of this forum is going to attempt to tell another off, however subtle the suggestion may be. I hope this is quite clear to everyone.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
I never questioned or had an issue with praying being good in itself. The reasons, however, do matter. I don't think someone praying 'please let that man die, I hate him' is such a good thing.

Aren't you confusing reasons with content? This would not be a prayer "for you", quite the contrary. It would be a specific request from God, like praying to win the lotto or praying to get the girl. It is not that we are not supposed to make "request" prayers, it is just that there are other kinds of prayer. When I say "I'll pray for you", the contents of that prayer are usually something like "Lord, please help him".

I don't see how this can be bad, and it is not a statement that I am better than him or that I don't need God's help. It is just that I would like God to help him. There is no relation to my own status or religion in that prayer.

I wish I could pray more... though I'm getting better on that respect. Prayer "for others" -- meaning we wish their happiness and blessing -- can never be wrong, and can never be "too much".

EDIT: I posted simultaneously with ithrynluin, and I would like to say that I agree with him on the matter of non-Christians posting in this thread. I heartily welcome all satanists, atheists, agnostics, muslims, sikhs, hinduists, etc. etc. In fact I hope to reach an agreement with him on this matter of prayer after this post ;) .

[HLGStrider]

Would you care to elaborate please?

Two is right, but I wouldn't put the obvious in there. I have nothing that I would consider proof that Christianity is the correct religion. I don't consider those of other religions to be denying the obvious or foolish.

However, if you assume that Christianity is true and that the God of Christianity is the true God, it follows that Allah is not God. Therefore, praying to him would do no good. I'd expect a Muslim to believe visa versa, that my God is a false God. I am not offended by this. One of us is wrong, and there is a chance both of us are, but I believe I am right. I belive the God of the Bible is God and the only God. I believe that praying to false Gods won't due any good, unless you go for the meditative power of thinking on something above yourself. . .

The only problem I have with Inj. getting into this is that he is bringing in the Hell thread which I am not involved in and don't have time to read through, so if he has a problem with what is being said there he should discuss it there, not here. If he wants to discuss what is being said here he can discuss what is being said here, but his statements are just confusing me at the moment, so he could clarify a bit. He says that LotR's implied something and I don't know what her words are so I can't defend or disagree with them. . .which is a highly frustrating position for anyone who wants to argue well.

I think with the original intent of this thread, it would be nice if people who disagreed stayed away, but we have strayed away from the original intent (which was basically just a get together for Christians).

[Kailita]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Yes...but since I'm a non-Christian and therefore a Satanist (As you implied in the 'Hell' thread) why are you praying for me and others?

Why are you so stubbornly preaching for one religion discounting others as Satanists?
Whoa whoa whoa...:confused:...I don't remember anything like that ever being said. Just because you're not a Christian does not mean that you worship Satan. How would you get that idea?

[HLGStrider]

Was anything said about false religions being lies of Satan or something like that? (I'm just asking because I'd like to discuss it without having to go combing through pages upon pages trying to guess what he meant)

Anyway, I think there'd be greater reason to pray for a Satanist if you believe Satan to be evil, therefore a Satanist would be someone in the grasp of something evil, so you'd want the delivered from evil so you'd want to pray for them. . .just a side note, as it seems what happened was Inj. taking something either LotR or Kalita said in a wrong way. . .

[Athelas]

No, apparently only if you love Jesus the correct way as pointed out by Jesus' personal thought police right here on this board.

"Everyone else's god is really the Devil"

Did it ever occur to anyone that God might have more than one name?

"I'm praying for you." Translation: "I pray that the blindfold of ignorance be removed from your eyes and you become a saved, enlightened being like myself."

Amazing how you can say something seemingly so full of charity and humility and come across as snotty and condescending.

[Inderjit S]

well, that's horrible, and I don't agree with it at all.....I will not accept any other "religion" or teachings other than of the one TRUE God, Jesus Christ!!!!!!!! Satan is behind every singe other "religion" in the world, no matter how many ppl r in it or how good it seems........JESUS IS LIFE!!!!!!!!!! posted by LoTR fan2

Jesus luvs ya'll! He so doesn't wanna see u go 2 hell, but he is a PERFECT God (praise God!!) and he will send those who haven't accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior to Hell to be with Satan and his demons.....HELL IS REAL, GUYS! DON'T IGNORE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Found in pages 8/9 in 'Hell' thread. I'm sure there are more examples of such views. I respect people who believe and love god, it is a admirable thing, to admire and love someone yet LOTRfan's and some others views on God sicken me. Sorry. Thank you for your welcoming words, BTW Eriol. :)

posted simultaneously with ithrynluin, and I would like to say that I agree with him on the matter of non-Christians posting in this thread. I heartily welcome all satanists, atheists, agnostics, muslims, sikhs, hinduists, etc. etc. In fact I hope to reach an agreement with him on this matter of prayer after this post . posted by Eriol.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Athelas
"I'm praying for you." Translation: "I pray that the blindfold of ignorance be removed from your eyes and you become a saved, enlightened being like myself."


Not really. It's more like "I'm praying for you". This is one prayer. Another is "I'm praying for the blindfold of ignorance to be removed from my eyes".

And in that respect, I'd like to keep on discussing the matter of authenticity of the Gospels... or did you concede my points Athelas?

Let us make an attempt to discuss it without any sneering comments, as if we were typing words into a computer :D.

[Athelas]

The only point I concede you is the one between your shoulders, Zippy.

I originally just posted to see if there was a good old Maranatha love fest here, but I see that it's become nothing but petty squabbling and people attacking each other's denominations and scriptures. How sad.

[Eriol]

Yes... that's right.

[Kailita]

Originally posted by Athelas
The only point I concede you is the one between your shoulders, Zippy.

I originally just posted to see if there was a good old Maranatha love fest here, but I see that it's become nothing but petty squabbling and people attacking each other's denominations and scriptures. How sad.
Very sad, indeed. However, I think you're taking discussions over the truth and turning them into attacks. Christians are called to build other up...we are not trying to "attack" your beliefs (or if some are, they are not behaving like Christians)...but we are also called to help and correct each other. We are - or should be - trying to help each other grow and better understand God's words and the way He wants us to be. And no offense meant, but you seem to be adding to arguments quite a bit with the condescending words I've seen in some of your posts. There is a way to discuss these things without becoming rude or insensitive.

[LOTRfan2]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
posted by LOTR_fan2

Yes...but since I'm a non-Christian and therefore a Satanist (As you implied in the 'Hell' thread) why are you praying for me and others?

Why are you so stubbornly preaching for one religion discounting others as Satanists? Quite frankly I don't want YOURE prayers. If you indeed are right, and I am worshiping Hell or whatever then I'm GLAD that I'm worshipping a leader that doesn't discriminate-Satan. So save your prayers.

(My 'Satanic religion' BTW is Sikhism, a Indian religion, quite large, but not in comparison to Hinduism and Islam and we accept other peoples beliefs of god.)

Elgee why is the prayer of people of a different religion innefective for you? :confused:

I didn't mean that in a mean way, and if it came across as that, I'm very sorry. I'm not saying that you're a satanist at all!! I promise you that'z not what I mean. I don't think that you're worshipping hell or satan. I'm just praying for youguys. I don't understand why that's such a big deal.....And also, Athelas, I'm not trying to upset you, and I'm veery soory if any of my beliefs have come across cruely.....I didn't realize I was being so mean until a close friend pointed out my faults, and I'm sorry.

LOTRFan2

[HLGStrider]

What she said is mostly on the topic of the Hell thread and probably should be kept there or else we'll have two threads arguing the same thing. . .won't we? As for the Satan issue, I don't believe all other religions to be Satanic, though some are. I also believe that there have been religions that were inately evil. . .any religion that involves human sacrifices (such a thing has existed but I think they don't exist anymore in most areas though I am sure that some places they still happen). There are Satan worshipers for sure.

My basic take on other gods is that they just don't exist so they would be lies, and as Satan is called the father of lies, I suppose you could say he's behind them, but I don't think that makes them Satanic. I have lied before without being Satanic. It wasn't good for me to lie. . .

And Athelas can say whatever she wants. . .wait. .. are you a he? I've seen you refered to by both pronouns. I was going for she based on something or other, but I forget what now, and I hate making that mistake.

Anyway, we can say what we want. Athelas can say what he/she wants, as long as the mods don't decide it is too insulting. . . and they are going to soon about some of the things he/she has posted, so I wish he/she would calm down a bit.

[Athelas]

There are the sad little heavy metal poseurs who believe in their album covers and wear an inverted pentagram without really knowing what it means because it's cool and rebellious. Mostly harmless.

Then there are, yes, there really are Satanists who, no matter what they say about being "merely pragmatic," really are deeply Evil sociopaths and muderers. Some of them hide behind high ranking authority. It rankles Witches, (Goddess worshippers) when these creeps call themselves "Witches," This is about as accurate as a Muslim calling himself a Jew.

[Gandalf_White]

Whoa I haven't been on in a while so forgive me for not keeping up on this stuff.

One thing I want to say is just because you're not Christian doesn't necessarily mean that you are following Satan.
_________________________________
Something I find funny/strange about Wiccans/Witches is that they deny the existance of Satan. Hard to believe but that is one way that Satan trys to manipulate people. He wants them not to believe in him so that he can snare them even more easily. You have to realize that Satan does exist. He is evil itself. Pure evil.

[Athelas]

I'm amazed at the number of Christians who deny the existance of Cernunnos, but what can you do?

Satan is part of the Christian mythology and has nothing to do with Witchcraft or the Goddess, so why should we believe in him any more than Ymir the Frost Giant or Quetzlcoatl.

[elf boy]

I'm to scared not to believe it really.... *nod* (although thaz not the basis of my faith...)

[LOTRfan2]

Actually, Atheles (not tryin' 2 be rude r nethang), Satan is part of Christian REALITY. There's honestly no MYTHology in Christianity.

LOTRfan2

PS-I'd have 2 agree....let'z keep the Hell thread stuff on that thread...Don't wanna get 2 confused!

[Athelas]

Mythology, Cosmology, however you want to word it, every religion has a different pantheon or group of beings. Satan is a being from the Christian pantheon, not Wiccan, RIGHT?

Ergo, this statement:

>Something I find funny/strange about Wiccans/Witches is that they deny the existance of Satan.<

makes no sense. It's like saying : "I find it funny/strange that Christians deny the existance of Thor." Thor is from Norse Asatru, therefore it is absurd to assume that Christians would even know who Thor is, much less fret about denying him.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Athelas
Mythology, Cosmology, however you want to word it, every religion has a different pantheon or group of beings. Satan is a being from the Christian pantheon, not Wiccan, RIGHT?


er... aren't you Christian? Should not Christians believe in the Christian 'pantheon', as you put it?

I guess it is safe to say you believe in Satan then...