The Silmarillion Ch.#8: Of the Darkening of Valinor

[Walter]

Further Readings

The Book of Lost Tales I: "The Theft of Melko"
The Shaping of Middle-earth: "The Earliest 'Silmarillion'" - Ch. 4
The Shaping of Middle-earth: "The Quenta" - Ch. 4
Shaping of Middle-earth: "The Earliest Annals of Valinor" - MMCMDI (p288) ;)
Shaping of Middle-earth: "The Annals of Aman" §105-§116
Morgoth's Ring: "The Later Quenta Silmarillion" - "Of the Darkening of Valinor"

[Ithrynluin]

But why would Melkor do that? I mean, they both were spiritual beings, or were they not? Or is this sort of a remnant of the early version where the origin of Ungoliant is unknown and Melkor could hope to make more impression on her?

Perhaps he was tired of pretending and being in a "goody two shoes" form.;) I can relate to how he felt. :D

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Thus did the great thief set his lure for the lesser.

Is Tolkien already pre-telling here or why else would he call Melkor the “great thief”?

An odd thought:
Melkor stole the Silmarils, which contained the light of the Two Trees. Ungoliant "stole" the very light of the Trees.
Melkor did not destroy his prize, and it could still be recovered (as proved to be the case), whereas Ungoliant's loot was lost forever.
Who is the bigger thief?;)

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Interesting, and IMO worth mentioning, are also the narrative skills of Tolkien, e.g. the slow and tedious ascending, Ungoliant leading: ’Then slowly she wrought her webs: rope by rope from cleft to cleft, from jutting rock to pinnacle of stone, ever climbing upwards, crawling and clinging, until at last she reached the very summit…’, almost like a rope of climbers: and she made a ladder of woven ropes and cast it down, and Melkor climbed upon it… (but somehow I’m also reminded of Rapunzel-Lúthien letting her hair down for the prince), and then the “effortless” descent, Melko ahead: ’Then Melkor laughed aloud, and leapt swiftly down the long western slopes; and Ungoliant was at his side, and her darkness covered them.’


What an excellent observation, Walter! But Melkor is not being very gentleman-ish in descending down the rope first - he should have let Lady Ungoliant do it before him.:p

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Another interesting passage! Why would Finwë refuse to come, when the two of his sons were to make peace, a reconciliation on orders from above? But then again, already in the previous chapter, when he had witnessed the dispute between his sons he had made no attempt to part them or to mediate in the dispute...

And why would Fëanor come, after being forced to leave Tirion shamefully? Sure Manwë ordered him, but it is a bit out of character for him to comply with the wishes of the Valar.
As for Finwë, did he know that Fëanor and Fingolfin would make peace? Did Fëanor know the purpose of his being summoned? And did Manwë plan for it to happen?
Finwë seemed to favour his eldest son, perhaps to cherish the memory of Miriel, or/and perhaps because he felt that Fëanor was misunderstood by the Valar and wrongly punished.

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And an observation of my own:

Thus unseen he came at last to the dark region of Avathar. That narrow land lay south of the Bay of Eldamar, beneath the eastern feet of the Pelóri, and its long and mournful shores stretched away into the south, lightless and unexplored. There, beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea, the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world;

Isn't it strange and a bit ironic that the darkest place in Arda was so close to that place which had most light?

[Lhunithiliel]

1/
Or were the Valar just being too lazy to contemplate about Melkor’s possible intentions and hence could be easily tricked - once again - by Melkor?
You know, the Ainur of Eru did a great job at first - so much enthusiasm, so much will to create, to protect the created and to go on creating...! .... Up to one point...when they had settled down, had "distributed" their duties, had built their beautifu/appropriate mansions ....and then what?... The enthusiasm - gone! Replaced by some form of blissful laziness and carelessness.
I just cannot but not think of the Gods on Olympus!! They say Tolkien hated allegories and analogies! But then why are they so obvious? Or...is it just us that see them ? ...I don't think so!

As for the Valar's attitude towards Melkor's actions - I'd say that Gods in all religions seem to be strongly endowed with "human" qualities and the Valar could not escape the same "doom"
What is so human? Well, think of it! When one lives in bliss and prosperity on the "sunny side", why would he ever care too much what is going on on the "dark side of the street"?!!!
I'd say - Yes, the Valar did show quite an amazing carelessness and total irresponsibility - a process, which IMHO, can be traced as deepening further on in the story.

2/ quote:
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For he was yet as one of the Valar, and could change his form, or walk unclad, as could his brethren; though that power he was soon to lose for ever.
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This “power” is nagging me ever since

This "power" has been nagging me not only in this extract, not only in this chapter or book... but in the whole story!
Just, let's analyse....
An Ainu - a heavenly creature, descends into a meterial world >> still preserves its ability to take up any form it desires BUT may also stay in that initial "cosmic" form it had up there in the Void.
The most interesting thing is that as an ex-Ainu each Vala or/and Maia could change form! Now.... I'm asking myself...:
WHY on ME would a Vala/Maia walk, jump, ride, climb, fall, crawl, kneel.... etc. ??!!?? Why these human movements?????

This has been nagging me so seriously that in one of my "What if?-games I made Melkor move like a true Vala!

Ah! But what do I know about the Valar?!!!

3/ A "black hole" ?????

Thief of ideas!!!!!!!!
...though I know that I was still walking under the table when you were already reading Tolkien![/size] :p ... so....
This idea must have come to you first! :D

But, idf seriously speaking... yes, reading about Ungoliant (esp. in the earlier versions of the Silm. - at least these that I've been lucky to read so far!) she really looks like a black hole!
I guess, howeve, that as Tolkien created a mythology, starting (as each "decent" mythology should!) with the creation of the world etc... , then he surely had to provide a "mythological" image to most of the known cosmic phenomena - the Universe and space (the Void); the Galaxy (Arda), which is often considered to be the image of our Solar System; the planet Earth (Middle-earth....etc. .... though I know that these issues are some of the most discussed concerning Tolkien's works. ButI'm not some "schollar from above" who could provide even a brief review of these discussions!
These are just my own perceptions and observations. :cool:

4/ Interesting, and IMO worth mentioning, are also the narrative skills of Tolkien, e.g. the slow and tedious ascending, Ungoliant leading: ’Then slowly she wrought her webs: rope by rope from cleft to cleft, from jutting rock to pinnacle of stone, ever climbing upwards, crawling and clinging, until at last she reached the very summit…’, almost like a rope of climbers: and she made a ladder of woven ropes and cast it down, and Melkor climbed upon it… (but somehow I’m also reminded of Rapunzel-Lúthien letting her hair down for the prince), and then the “effortless” descent, Melko ahead: ’Then Melkor laughed aloud, and leapt swiftly down the long western slopes; and Ungoliant was at his side, and her darkness covered them.’
Ah! How can a man understand that a a female (of any form) is ready to sacrifice everything for a single word of a male?! And Melkor had his speech!!! ;) :D
Seriously, however, .... Someone once has said: "By every great man stands a great woman".... Could it be that Tolkien wished to somehow emphasize on this? - maybe not the exact words, but on the idea itself... After all, it is one of those universal truths that are all around us and it takes a great mind in order to recognize them and wrap them up in material form so that everyone could then see them...
Besides, female creatures, when evil, can be the most dangerous and the evillest thing that can ever exist in the world! ;) :D

5/ the "Finwe - Feanor" - issue

The way you observed it, Walter, reminded me of an opinion that I have built up, though haven't put too much effort in seriously thinking it over... Which makes my opinion/observation well open to criticism.
Anyway....
Am I wrong to say that the fathers in Tolkien's books seem to most often be weaker than their sons?!!!
At least I have got such an impression...
****
As for the other issues offered for discussion, I wouldn't dare to join any discussion , because I haven't read enough .... yet! ;)

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Walter
I was aiming at the fact, that - in the published Sil - Melkor's theft had not yet happened at this point...


I know you were, and I was commenting on Melkor being called "the great thief" (in contrast to Shelob being called the "lesser" thief"), which is not as obvious as one might think. I did not attempt to answer your question (I'll leave that to the more learned ones), I only analyzed the sentence.

by Lhunithiliel
WHY on ME would a Vala/Maia walk, jump, ride, climb, fall, crawl, kneel.... etc. ??!!?? Why these human movements?????

Lhun, I was also wondering about this on several occasions. Why didn't the Valar and Maiar just fly for crying out loud.:rolleyes: But maybe they did this to be more like the Children, to "suffer" or go through at least some of the things that the Children go through...

by Lhunithiliel
Am I wrong to say that the fathers in Tolkien's books seem to most often be weaker than their sons?!!!

I think you may be on to something here - Aragorn, Beren, Fëanor, Fingolfin, Finrod...
The only exceptions I can think of would be Húrin, who is more or less equal than his son in achievements (at least to my mind); and Elendil.

[Lhunithiliel]

Ithy:Lhun, I was also wondering about this on several occasions. Why didn't the Valar and Maiar just fly for crying out loud. But maybe they did this to be more like the Children, to "suffer" or go through at least some of the things that the Children go through...
No, I wouldn't buy it!
I somehow don't ....feel these characters to be ready to suffer for the "children"! Every bit of the story tells me that the Gods of Arda did what they did ...for their own sake! NOT for the sake of the "children"!

Ithy:I think you may be on to something here - Aragorn, Beren, Fëanor, Fingolfin, Finrod...
... and Elrond, and Elros, and Aldarion ... :D
Oh! The list could become very long!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
...so, you were still walking under the table about 1 & 1/2 years ago? Interesting... ;) :D :p
Yea! I'm still a suckling ... as far as T is concerned of course! :p :D

A - somewhat ;) - more serious reply to your thoughts later...
Common! I'm waiting! 'been a while that I haven't had a good T-discussion! :rolleyes:

[Lhunithiliel]

But, Master!
If you agree on my views, then what a discussion could we have?! :p :D

All right, here is a Q:

Why did the Valar lament so much the destruction of the trees?

I mean, they came from a region of darkness (the Void), and wasn't Arda at first dark?
And the trees with their light enlighted only Aman and part of Tol Eressea... The rest of the world was in darkness. And the Valar seemed to show not too much care of that fact.
So, with or without the trees the Valar could perfetly well exist.

Why then so much grief over their destruction?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Walter
Well, we three could just say we're done discussing here and have a beer together. I can pick up ithryn and we meet somewhere in the middle...ummmm...how about Vis, Korcula or Lastovo (three nice islands in the Adriatic)? We could even charter a sailing boat and have fun...


Great idea Walt, and some excellent holiday destinations! Though I know for a fact that the sea is lovely on the Bulgarian coasts...plus it would save the lady the trouble of packing.:D ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Great idea Walt, and some excellent holiday destinations! Though I know for a fact that the sea is lovely on the Bulgarian coasts...plus it would save the lady the trouble of packing.:D ;)
Oh! But, Ithy, Walter hasn't said anything about picking me up for that holiday! :p :D
So, I am not to be taken into consideration! :p

*****
Walter: Yes, but then sailing there is no longer an option, I suppose...
Uh????!!!!
And WHY, may I ask?
******
Walter: I would try to answer if you could explain to me first how a purely spiritual (and hence invisible) being would be able to "see"at all ...
What "spiritual (and hence invisible)" being are we talking about, Master? ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
Would you be so kind as to read my former post once again, pls! Yes, the one that starts with We three.... I mean, since we're just three people who participated here we might even continue the discussion under a shady pine in the sun with whatever beverage one prefers...
So, I am invited after all! Cool!
Am all for it! ;) :D
As for the beverage... cold tonic will be just fine, thank you! :D

Well the sailing boat can go with an average speed of 6 knots (nautical miles/hour) let's see...down the Adriatic, Ionic, Gulf of Korinth, Aegeic, Marmara, Dardanelles, Black Sea...expect us in... let's say ummm 3 months? ;)
If YOU say so, M'Lord!
You are the "sea-wolf" here! What does a woman know of sailings!?!

Valar & Maiar, M'lady, were, if I'm not mistaken (purely - when walking "unclad") spiritual beings, hence they must have been invisible and according to "mondane" (or "earthly") physics it is - generally speaking - impossible to "see" when you are "invisible", and when you cannot "see" what then, would you need light for? (that is - roughly speaking - the path of my thoughts...)
...which means, IF I follow correctly the "path of your thoughts", that you again agree with me that in fact the Valar made a great fuss about ... nothing of too much of importance... :p
Or ... did I get you wrong? :rolleyes:

[Beleg]

quote:



When Manwë heard of the ways that Melkor had taken, it seemed plain to him that he purposed to escape to his old strongholds in the north of Middle-earth;…



The chapter begins with a somehow “unexpected” move of Melkor, he turned south instead of proceeding to the north, but was this move really so unpredictable? Or were the Valar just being too lazy to contemplate about Melkor’s possible intentions and hence could be easily tricked - once again - by Melkor?

I have also thought that. But as we know that South of Middle Earth is much underdeveloped then the North. Here is a Quote from the shapping of Middle Earth. That to the North is Eruman, and that to the South is Arvalin; and there is only a narrow strait between them and the corners of the Middle-earth, but these straits are filled with ice.


So in the south their was the minimum chance of Morgoth of descending and all previous experiences pointed that Morgoth was most likely to take refuge in the Northern Waste.

quote:



For he was yet as one of the Valar, and could change his form, or walk unclad, as could his brethren; though that power he was soon to lose for ever.



This “power” is nagging me ever since I first read the Sil! Sometimes Tolkien makes it appear as if Valar and Maiar could assume “humanoid” forms ad libidum, yet Melkor looses this ability at some point and so does Sauron. And why did the Istari have to be even more troubled by “having been given” the bodies of old men, no longer able to change that. Elves could be re-housed easily after hving been slain, and yet for Gandalf we need the “direct intervention” of the big boss himself, Eru? Sure we can say that’s an entirely different story, but isn’t Tolkien being a wee bit inconsistent on this issue?

I agree.

There she sucked up all light that she could find, and spun it forth again in dark nets of strangling gloom, until no light more could come to her abode; and she was famished.



I can’t help but that the description of Ungoliant – and even more so in the previous versions where the until no light more could come to her abode,... part is not yet introduced, reminds me of a “black hole”...

Well, I have always been fascinated by Tolkien's idea that "she finally devoured herself". A blackhole can't do that...

quote:



Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible.



But why would Melkor do that? I mean, they both were spiritual beings, or were they not? Or is this sort of a remnant of the early version where the origin of Ungoliant is unknown and Melkor could hope to make more impression on her?

Morgoth is above the level of Ungolient, and since Melkor is not offically a Tyrant, he no longer needs to wear the "cunning" raiment he wore in Aman, presumbly both to decieve the Noldo and some of the Vala. And since Melkor is above Ungoliant, well he needs to keep the hideous beast in check...has to make an impression...

quote:



’… and at each first gathering of fruits Manwë made a high feast for the praising of Eru,…



Thanksgiving?

Isn't Thanksgiving a Custom of USA only?

The destruction of the trees itself is IMO less “thrilling” than in the earliest version in “The Theft of Melko” (BoLT I), but – again IMO – better than in the “Earliest Silmarillion” or “The Quenta”.

I have to disagree here. I think this version is better written then the one in BOLT1, and better still then the one in the Quenta. Here idea's are clearer in Tolkien's mind, which allows him to present a more comprohensive narrative.

In the latter clearly a “darkness” or “evil” in the Boethian sense, this is changed significantly towards a Manichaean “darkness” or “evil” in the published Sil (as already in the Later Quenta §59 – in slightly different form)...

Erm, what is a Boethian sense and what is a Manichaean sense?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
I don't even faintly resemble Raimund Harmsdorf and as for women & sailing: maybe ask Isabelle Autissier... ;)
Hey!
Don't forget I'm living in an another world....somewhere "on the other side of a black hole" ;)... How could I know who these people are!?! :p

......but then again, the "inner consistency" of Tolkien's mythology is still higher developed than those of most other comparable epi...
I suppose yes. And when one reads T for the first (...second and even third ;) ) time it all seems so.. logical and so cosistent.
It's only later when one starts looking deeper and starts asking questions.... and becomes a bit dissatisfied with finding no logic.

But I guess myths are just this - NOT reality, therefore one wouldn't find in a mythological world the same reason and/or forms of logic that are to rule the real world...:rolleyes:

Perhaps... I think... this is the foundation of religion too.

[Beorn]

What caused Melkor to loose the power to 'walk unclad'?

[Nóm]

Well based on what I've read I'd say he became bound to his body because of excessive and evil use of it. He was lessened to such an extent in mind and spirit because he sent so much of his power out into the fabric of Arda (his servants, and the substance of Arda), that he could no longer control the shape of his physical body. In an Essay in HoME X, Tolkien says that Morgoth intentionally incarnated himself permanently, and that this was done so that he could have control over the physical world.


HoME X, Myth's Transformed,Notes on motives in the Silmarillion

Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings.
And...

But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world.


His [Morgoth's] sole ultimate object was their destruction. Elves, and still more Men, he despised because of their 'weakness': that is their lack of physical force, or power over 'matter'; but he was also afraid of them. He was aware, at any rate originally when still capable of rational thought, that he could not 'annihilate' them: that is, destroy their being; but their physical life', and incarnate form became increasingly to his mind the only thing that was worth considering.
Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwe and Namo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void.