Which threads, which forums?

[Nóm]

Do threads that are a series of posts where people tell who their favorite this or that is with very little or no discussion, belong in The Works of J.R.R. Tolkien forum?

Would these be better in Bag End, where the "lighter matters" are to be discussed, or elsewhere?

It would prefer that only discussions be in The Works of J.R.R. Tolkien, and I wonder is this a minority opinion?

If it is not, then perhaps we can do something about it. If so, then chalk it up to me being a jerk. :eek:

What are your opinions on the content in the various book forums (LotR, Bag End, Hall of Fire... and so on)?
Are they organized enough for you?

How might they be improved?

[Ithrynluin]

Personally, I would like to see all (or most of) those "Favourite this, and favourite that" threads moved to Bag End. In most cases they get a bunch of responses (and quite a few of these tend to turn to chit chat) and have little discussionary value.:)

[YayGollum]

But it matters to the people that post there! :eek: :( :rolleyes: oh well. It's not a huge deal. It's easy to move the things. just PM whoever started the thread. Why, is that Bag End section one of the ones that don't mess with the little post count thing?

[Nóm]

Originally posted by YayGollum
But it matters to the people that post there! :eek: :( :rolleyes: oh well. It's not a huge deal. It's easy to move the things. just PM whoever started the thread. Why, is that Bag End section one of the ones that don't mess with the little post count thing?
What matters? That the theads remain in The Works of J.R.R. Tolkien forum?

If so, why?

The Bag End posts do count. I would never wish any Tolkien related thread no matter how light-hearted not go towards post counts so long as we have post counts. I even think it is unfitting that the Debate Bar posts do not count. If anyone has looked into this thread they will see how Tolkien related that place is.

As someone who takes part in serious and light-hearted threads, I would prefer they be seperated. Would anyone not?

This thread has over 25 views now, and though 3 or 4 are mine, we only have 2 others posting here. What of those that read the thread but haven't posted? Indifferent about it? It is fine to post and say so.

I think this is an important topic here, as it will effect the way I moderate.
I have already had an issue over moving things to Bag End, and ended up moving some threads back out of there.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Nóm
I have already had an issue over moving things to Bag End, and ended up moving some threads back out of there.

Are you referring to the Quote games in the Hobbit, the Lotr and the Sil forums? I think those should remain where they are, because these "games" further one's knowledge of the books, and helps a person become more skilled in finding a particular quote when you need it. It's fun, but also educational.

[Niniel]

I think that treads specifically concerned with a certain work of JRRT should be in the forum dedicated to that work, otherwise it would get confusing where you can find these threads. So anything that has to do with LOTR should be in the LOTR section, unless it's complete nonsense and just for fun. Threads about 'your favorite...' sometimes do have discussion, so I don't think it would be a good idea to move them to Bag End.

[Nóm]

I was not reffering to them, but to some "who is your favorite" threads.

Though I did move the quote games to Bag End and back.

Quote Games are games none the less, and I moved them back to the book forums only because someone was upset that I moved them to Bag End and I had no hard reason for having done so and was not about to argue over it with someone who uses the threads when I do not. Now I suppose the matter of the quote games is closed... they get to stay in the orginal forums.


Some of the 'favorite' threads do have some serious discussion and I do think they should stay.

However, I do not get it when people speak of some threads being 'just for fun'. To me, if a thread is enjoyed it is for fun. Serious threads that I chose to post in, are fun to me and that is why I do it. I assume this is so for everyone else?

[Some stuff removed as it no longer applies since I am not a mod now]

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Nóm
I think some of the forums look very messy and I took this position to take care of them. If people do not like how I do that, then I am not right for the job. I guess we will see what happens.

Some of the "serious" forums look very very messy right now - and very "not-serious", and I'm not too fond of visiting them. Order should be maintained by the moderators, and while the "ordinary" members of the forum should (and do) have a say in this, the final decision ultimately lies with the moderator who was appointed to this position for a reason.

[Idril]

Originally posted by Niniel
I think that treads specifically concerned with a certain work of JRRT should be in the forum dedicated to that work, otherwise it would get confusing where you can find these threads. So anything that has to do with LOTR should be in the LOTR section, unless it's complete nonsense and just for fun. Threads about 'your favorite...' sometimes do have discussion, so I don't think it would be a good idea to move them to Bag End.

I agree with Niniel - at the risk of being unpopular with the Mods (but then I'm too old to be worrying about that and it's never stopped me in anything I've done:))

Bag End sounds like the local dump. Not everyone who enjoys Tolkien's work is 'scholarly' and into indepth discussions and debates - they are actually kinda scary to a newbie, (this, I am ashamed to say includes me:() The extensive knowledge some folks have - wow!

A sugestion - in the book section - we can have two sections per book - eg. 'The Lord of the Rings - Light-hearted discussions' and directly beneath there is, 'The Lord of the Rings - Serious Discussion'. That way, the 'offending' threads remain in the relevant book section. I have to admit to being petrified of posting a thread for something which I believe important or not understand and then have the veterans 'slag' you of because of it.

By the way Nom, I wasn't upset about the 'Quotable Quotes' move - vaguely irritated perhaps:) and you are not a jerk, just trying to find your way around a new job.

ps - 'slag' local British slang for being 'told off' and also a 'loose woman'.

[Nóm]

A sugestion - in the book section - we can have two sections per book - eg. 'The Lord of the Rings - Light-hearted discussions' and directly beneath there is, 'The Lord of the Rings - Serious Discussion'.
What do others think of this type of thing?

I am all for another forum, maybe even more than one more. I was thinking awhile back that maybe we could have something that when you Click on the LotR forum, a page is opened that has links to two forums. Sort of the way the guild forums used to be. Your idea would fit with this. I don't know how many will want this, or if Webmaster will want to add more book forums.
As I said in my post in the other thread: I posted about the addition of forums in the mod area a few days ago, and no replies yet.

That way, the 'offending' threads remain in the relevant book section. I have to admit to being petrified of posting a thread for something which I believe important or not understand and then have the veterans 'slag' you of because of it.
Has anyone slagged you?

Now I wouldn't say they are offensive, just that I would rather they be in their own area. I take part plenty light-hearted type threads over in Bag End... should be eveident that I do not look down at them as being "less"... only less serious.

I also do not want Bag End being used as a dump, which is why I think we should get another forum. I would rather use Bag End like a dump though, than see the other forums full of non-discussion threads. I have not used it as a dump, as I do not think that would be right... but I am tempted to put certain threads there, not being they are light-hearted but because they have been answered and are in the way now.

I mean threads like:

"Hello, I neeed help... which chapter did this happen in?" That have been answered, and that's it for them.

So far I have only moved threads there that I think are more light-hearted and by rights belong in Bag End. But what do I do with threads like the example I just gave above? I guess I just have to leave them in place.

[Idril]

Originally posted by Nóm
Has anyone slagged you? off
Yep, once, but to tell the honest truth, I can't remember when or about what. But I've notice a couple a 'apprentices' on the receiving end of what I think is 'inappropriate tone'. had to comfort one, he/she felt they had to even apologise for 'offending' the wiser member, when they had done nothing to warrant it:(.

I hate to admit it, but to newer members and may be others, there is an air of 'intellectual snobbery' about (mostly unintentional I believe. This discussion about 'lighter and serious' discussion, sorta has that feel. Please, please Nom, I am not accusing you of being that way inclined - but others may perceive it as such. How's the search for dragon hide coming;).

Sticking mostly to the lighter stuff has led me to carry on and read Sil and I'm now on UT - something I probably would not
have done before joining the forum - (fpound accidently in a search) looking for the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen - it's so obvious to me now, but back then, it was a vague query which was bugging me. I notice it has come up again.

Perhaps we can have a section for the most popular (recurring) questions/threads - the one which come up over and over, with every new batch of members eg- Aragorn/Arwen etc. and keep it to the front so they it can be seen early on. New members are not going to search for old threads, which may answer their question.

What's the chance of getting 'spell check' within the forum?:D

[Nóm]

Oh geeez... I had no idea I might be perceived by some as a snob. I thought I was more of a common-man type. :D

I do understand about being affraid to post things though. I joined a year ago, but I joined a couple weeks after reading LotR and knew very little, and felt like an idiot compared to most everyone else.

As for your idea about a new members questions forum... I do not know if we need that if the idea I have in mind will work. I'll see what you all think...

I have been saving a few links to threads here and there, so that we might open a sticky thread in the LotR forum that has links to threads that deal with the frequent asked questions. Such as:

Do mortals live forever when they go to the undying lands?

How old is Aragorn?

... That type of thing.

IMO this forum is in need of a FAQ.

If others like this idea, and would like to help, that would be great.

Now, if anyone likes Idril's idea of a forum for this, please post to let us know.

Though, if we do something like the idea suggested earlier, that is have Two forums for LotR or the books in general... instead of 'light-hearted' and 'serious' we could name one for people who are very new to reading Tolkien, and this could also be used for threads created by people who are not new to Tolkien, but want to start a less serious thread. Or, perhaps it would be best not to mix the two?

What do you think of the sticky FAQ thread Idril? Anyone? With this would a forum just for new readers be needed?

Also, A FAQ thread could go into The Silmarillion and Hobbit forums too. I do not think HoME needs one, since a thread all about the HoME books has been made sticky.



*******************************

Ok...
Webmaster opened a forum for suggestions.
I suggest that anyone interested in the idea of additional forum(s) can discuss that here... we can come up with something that sounds good, and then stick it in that suggestion box. For those who do not know it, Walter also brought up an interesting and related idea here. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=11360&perpage=15&pagenumber=5)

I started this thread so any concerns about the book forums concerns or suggestions about the book forums can be posted and discussed. So ideas other than additional forums are still good here. They can be shaped into perfection here and then sumitted to the Suggestion Box.. I think.

ithrynluin is a now a mod for the book forums... so what do you say ithrynluin, about the need for additional forum? Take your time now... no hurry... setttle in a little. ;)

[Idril]

Originally posted by Nóm
IMO this forum is in need of a FAQ.

Though, if we do something like the idea suggested earlier, that is have Two forums for LotR or the books in general... instead of 'light-hearted' and 'serious' we could name one for people who are very new to reading Tolkien, and this could also be used for threads created by people who are not new to Tolkien, but want to start a less serious thread. Or, perhaps it would be best not to mix the two?

What do you think of the sticky FAQ thread Idril? Anyone? With this would a forum just for new readers be needed?

Also, a FAQ thread could go into The Silmarillion and Hobbit forums too. I do not think HoME needs one, since a thread all about the HoME books has been made sticky.[/B]

I see the FAQ as being useful as it would be quick access to these questions and it would hopefully stop some of the recurrent threads. It needs to be made sticky so it can be seen immediately. (I'll be happy to help with that if you'd like:))

I'm not too sure about the name or sugestion, 'new readers section' as it I feel it would isolate them from the rest of the forum. I personally prefer - 'lighter discusions and matters' - or something along those lines. That way we have the experienced mixing with new eg the 'quotable quotes'. I would suggest the 'light' section goes before or gets listed before the 'serious' section.

I consider myself still new to the forum and my ideas are from that view. I didn't discover Hall of Fire, Bag End and Stuff & Bother for ages after. The first 2 of these forums seems very chaotic as they have Tolkien related threads mixed with non- Tolkien stuff (one reason is because S&B doesn't add to your post count - so these topics gets shoved into other forums).

[dapence]

A "Common Questions FAQ" would be a great idea!!! In fact, it's such a great idea, that I've setup a sub site just for it at http://www.thetolkienforum.com/faqs-common-questions/ for those interested to help develop.

I can 'dress it up' later.

What I would suggest, is to start a thread, and begin to outline and fill in the FAQ. Take your time, allow it to grow, and send me updates to the page when needed. Maybe you could form a FAQ committee, and could create other FAQs we could setup as well.

For those who may not be aware of how FAQs are laid out, it's pretty simple.

Question 01 : ...

Question 02 : ...

Question 03 : ...

(Each question is hyperlinked to its answer below)

Answer 01 : ...

Answer 02 : ...

Answer 03 : ...

Most FAQs grow, and are frequently modified. Sort of ongoing projects.

So, there you go, something constructive we can do. :)

[Idril]

Wow! that was a quick developement:) and a good one - I'll now go have a look.

[Niniel]

It think a FAQ is agreat idea, the FAQ there is now doesn't really answer many questions. Maybe you could also include in the FAQ the announcements that are made by the mods in different places on the site, since these give sometimes important 'rules' of TTF, but are difficult to find.

[Idril]

The general forun FAQ needs updating with info like, when a member goes from being an apprentice to being a Guildsman etc and number of posts to get an Avatar etc. New member regularly set up threads to ask theses questions. Or perhaps Beorn and make that part of the registration process - 'you must read this before you can start posting' sorta thing. I don't think I noticed the FAQ button at the top till later on.

The book FAQ's, will we have one per book - which I am in favour of, or just one big one, with all the books mixed up?

[dapence]

Well, here you go. This is as official a project as I can make it. :)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11539

[Nenya Evenstar]

I just wanted to say that I am against the idea of splitting up the book forums into lighthearted and deeper discussion. If the forums are split up, newbies will no longer join in the deeper discussions because they will concentrating mainly on the more lighthearted fora. Considering how scary and big the discussions carried on by people like Anc, Gothmog, Grond, etc. looked to me when I first joined, I would never even venture into a forum that was dedicated to threads that all looked like that. When I first joined it took me forever to venture into The Silmarillion forum simply because the discussions looked a lot "scarier" there than they did in the Lord of the Rings fora. In those fora, I was drawn into the deeper discussions because they were right alongside the more lighthearted ones. It was in this way that I got drawn in and inspired to read and learn more. I am afraid that if you split the book sections into two sections, that newbies will feel uncomfortable joining in the deeper discussions.

I also think that we have more than enough fora at the moment. Is there anything wrong with simply utilizing what we have in a way that is more advantageous to everyone?

[Idril]

I totally agree with you Nenya, I felt the same way at first, but if it comes about that a split is needed, I would rather it stays in the book fora than be lost in Halls of Fire or somewhere less obvious. If a split has to come about, hopefully a newbie would gain enough confidence to venture out (and it wouldn't be to far away) as we did:)

[dapence]

I agree! Spliting the book fora would not be a good idea.

[Walter]

I understand your concerns, Nenya! And since there are a handful people around at TTF, that can - unlike us "dilettanti" - be considered "real Tolkien scholars" (I'm not referring to the three you mentioned) I imagine how strange it must feel for a newbie to read the contributions of those people.

But I think you will agree, that - after a while of dealing with Tolkien's works on a more serious level - there might be things of more interest than "Legolas is way kewl..." and "Do Elves have really pointed ears?" or maybe "Who is the greater Elf: Finrod or Felagund?" ;)

And in order to provide some space where such "advanced level" discussions can be held without having to dig through two dozen of such - abovementioned - threads, I would even go as far as suggesting some form of limited write access or at least more rigorous "moderating" for these book fora, in trying to make sure people have at least some knowledge (other than having seen the movie) before they join in those discussions there...

[Walter]

Originally posted by Webmaster
I agree! Spliting the book fora would not be a good idea. Well I started to write my post before this was posted or I wouldn't have bothered to reply when the issue seems already "settled"...

Oh well....the idea was worth a shot, I think....

[Lantarion]

Well I think it should still be discussed!
It's true that to completely new membres the 'Serious Discussion' threads will seem to (and indeed probably do) deal with subjects and topics only known to people who have read more of Tolkien's works. But why shouldn't they start in the 'Light Discussions'? They can discuss about what they do know about, deeply or not.* When they have chalked up some more reading-experience of Tolkien's works, and when they know more of the complexities of Arda, they can join in the 'Serious Discussions'.

*Actually the names and outlines of these two theoretically seperate Book fora are not very all-encompassing. I mean, members can discuss 'lightly' about the fëa/hröa questions, and they can discuss 'seriously' about things like 'Why did people not like Aragorn at first?' Perhaps the 'split' (still theoretical!) should be more like "Less In Depth Discussions" [not with that name], for members who, e.g., have only read the Hobbit and the LotR and perhaps the Sil once, but would like to discuss them; and the other might be "In Depth Discussions" [again not with that name], for people who want to discuss the Silmarillion, HoME and Unfinished Tales, and perhaps the more unknown points about the LotR.
It does seema little nasty to split fora up by the Members' knowledge of Tolkien's works, but I think that might be a reasonable split (yes, still theoretical).

[Nenya Evenstar]

Yes, newbies may wish to discuss something more than "Legolas is kewl" after a while, but I still think it would take a lot of guts for them to post in the more serious forum. Here's what I think would happen: The forum would become split between the "serious" posters and the "lighthearted" posters. The serious posters would stop visiting the lighthearted sections and would grow into these semi-scary god-like figures who appear snotty to the newer membership. I know that not all serious posters would stop visiting the lighthearted section, but I can guarantee that a good deal probably would. As a result you would end up with factions and forums kind of like what we saw in the RP sections. The lighthearted section was shunned and turned into spam, and none of the serious RPers even wanted to visit there. As a result, none of the newer RPers got to play with the older RPers, and a good deal of the older RPers came off as snobbs.

So basically I think you'd see a split in the membership into those who want nothing to do with the more lighthearted discussions and those who think that those who want nothing to do with lighthearted discussions are either Gods or snobbs. :p

I think the best solution to this problem is simply to utilize what forums we have in a better and more efficient manner. If the off topic post problem is addressed, there should be an increase in the quality of the book forums no matter what. Also, if we keep the forums together, this will encourage the newbies to look into the "deeper" threads and will encourage the oldies to be interested in helping the newbies along.

The last thing this forum needs is more classifications and more "groups."

[Ancalagon]

Why not have an added section in above 'The Hobbit' in the books section, that all members should post their new threads in? You can call it whatever you wish, whereby it would be the starting point of all book related threads, then either by the descretion of the mods, a nomination process or by request, each thread can be redirected to their specific section of the books forum, or elsewhere depending on what it was?!

Alternatively, you could leave things as they are and have a few good moderators manage it more effectively! The current formula I think works when it has dedicated Mods looking after it, tending it etc. Discussion is the point of this forum, Tolkien is the primary reason we all gravitate towards a forum such as this, and rightly so, fora dedicated to him should take pride of place. While it wasnt broke, nobody suggested fixing it, so why all the issues now?