The C9's purpose

[Nenya Evenstar]

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I have never quite understood exactly how the C9 is supposed to work. In fact, I do not think anyone really knows what our duties will be. So, this needs figured out. Here's what I've gathered:

We are a link between the membership and the mods.

We are somehow supposed to keep peace when certain "episodes" occur.

We are to come up with neat and innovative ways to improve the community of TTF.


Please continue!

[Anamatar IV]

Well as far as I know, this C9's primary goal is to pave the way for future C9s.

And also, (according to someone in the C9 discussion thread) the C9 is the link between Webmaster and the members.

[YayGollum]

Here's my take on the thing ---> The moderators are dedicated and intelligent and able to help people with just about anything over here. Too bad they scare some people. We gots to be around to hold hands and act harmlessly helpful and whine to some webmaster person when members could do it themselves.

Is that about right? oh well. Sure, since we're the first little council of nine thing, we gots to come up with the plan for the rest of them. You really don't think that we'll have time to do that and be helpful to everyone at the same time? That's just craziness. oh well. How long is one of these council of nine things supposed to go on?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Well, before we can decide what to do, we must decide what needs to be done. There may be several answers to that, each of which would require a "plan of action". So let us look and see why the concept of the Council came about in the first place: I have not been that long on the forum, but I seemed to get the feeling that things had happened in the past that had led certain members to believe that they weren't getting "a fair shake" from the moderators - and maybe from WM himself. If I am wrong about this, I will happily accept correction.

However, I certainly know that during the last unpleasantness (which I need not go into here, I don't believe), there was a very definite expression of a feeling of impotence/powerlessness among some members when dealing with the governing structure of the forum. Again, it was a conclusion that I reached from the postings that I read. I did not understand much of what was being discussed as far as the "facts" of the case were concerned, but more than once, certain members alluded to things that were "unfair" or "arbitrary". And it was in the context of these sentiments that the possibility of this Council was raised more than once.

Therefore, it would seem to me that our primary (or at least our most obvious) duty would be as some sort of "Star Chamber" to which members could petition in the case of some grievance or contested matter. We are not moderators, nor are we part of the forum's governing structure but by virtue of our very existence, we must constitute a decision making body. For if we cannot influence the "powers that be", then our existence is an illusion, a sham, a "sop" to derail disputes - and I have far too much confidence in and respect for our moderators and our webmaster to believe that this is the case!

So, if we are going to be an impartial body looking into disputes, it stands to reason that, as with all arbiters, our "findings" in the matter under dispute will be accepted by both sides, thus bringing any potential cause celeb to an abrupt halt.

Anyway, that is my "take" on our primary duty as a Council. Exactly how we would set up such an arbitration body - whether it would be all of us or only some of us, changing with each new problem - would have to be decided. I have merely "started the ball rolling". In fact, it may be the general concensus that this would not be a function of the Council at all!

I await your comments.

[YayGollum]

Got it. So you think that we're only around so average joe type members can walk up and whine to us so we can whine to the big guy in charge. Even though they could just do that themselves. Hm. Does that scary webmaster person not like paying attention to average joe members? oh well. There we go. Advertise the council of nine thing as ---> "The place for people to run if they're afraid of doing things for themselves." :confused:

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Got it. So you think that we're only around so average joe type members can walk up and whine to us so we can whine to the big guy in charge. Even though they could just do that themselves. Hm. Does that scary webmaster person not like paying attention to average joe members? oh well. There we go. Advertise the council of nine thing as ---> "The place for people to run if they're afraid of doing things for themselves." :confused:
No. I was thinking that in a "dispute" between a forum member and a moderator, we would provide arbitration so that the member did not feel "powerless". Remember, there was quite a bit of paranoia about the moderators "sticking together" against a certain member - which was untrue, happily. The problem is that to many on the forum, there was an appearance of helplessness on the part of the individual involved, and I had hoped that the Council could provide a sort of Arbitration Board where the member or members would feel they could get "a fair hearing" if they no longer believed that they would receive one from the moderators or the webmaster.

Of course, again this may not be what the Council is all about or what the rest of the members wish it to be about. All I know is, what I read about the establishment of this Council seemed to stem from the dispute in question and that alone leads me to believe that what forum members seemed to want from the Council was a place to kvetch and receive a fair hearing.

Again, if I am wrong, I will happily accede to the opinion of my illustrious co-members! I am not pressing this, only bringing it forth as what I perceived to be a very real service that many forum members thought that this kind of Council could provide.

I await your comments regarding the above.

[FoolOfATook]

I'm with Mrs. M here- during the Hurin/Ciryaher debacle (Act I of the debacle), I became so frustrated at what was going on, and the fact that, to paraphrase Auden, all I had was a voice, that I quit going to the forum for a week.

Here's what I think- the office of Commissioner of Major League Baseball (Sorry Aule, but this is the first analogy that comes to mind- we'll do soccer and rugby analogies next ;)) was created in response to the 1919 Chicago "Black Sox" scandal, when gambling nearly destroyed the integrity of the sport, and toyed with the faith of fifty million people, to borrow a phrase from F. Scott Fitzgerald (I'm just feeling all literary tonight, huh? ;)).

Anyway, just like how the position of commisoner was created to prevent there from ever being another scandal like the 1919 World Series, I personaly feel like our purpose is to prevent future debacles like the Cir/Hurin incident. To prevent situations where members feel like justice is being blatantly not served, and that those with power are using it to protect one another. To prevent situations where it seems like the weaker party is being abused by the stronger parties. Basicly, to see that justice is done.

At least, that's my personal vision of what this group is all about, for whatever that's worth.

[YayGollum]

Ah. Got it. So we wouldn't be around for the thing I was talking about? Only being around to work out problems between average joe members and moderators sounds like a lot less work. How often does that happen? Not that I love having as much responsibility as possible. :rolleyes:

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
I'm with Mrs. M here- during the Hurin/Ciryaher debacle (Act I of the debacle), I became so frustrated at what was going on, and the fact that, to paraphrase Auden, all I had was a voice, that I quit going to the forum for a week.

Here's what I think- the office of Commissioner of Major League Baseball (Sorry Aule, but this is the first analogy that comes to mind- we'll do soccer and rugby analogies next ;)) was created in response to the 1919 Chicago "Black Sox" scandal, when gambling nearly destroyed the integrity of the sport, and toyed with the faith of fifty million people, to borrow a phrase from F. Scott Fitzgerald (I'm just feeling all literary tonight, huh? ;)).

Anyway, just like how the position of commisoner was created to prevent there from ever being another scandal like the 1919 World Series, I personaly feel like our purpose is to prevent future debacles like the Cir/Hurin incident. To prevent situations where members feel like justice is being blatantly not served, and that those with power are using it to protect one another. To prevent situations where it seems like the weaker party is being abused by the stronger parties. Basicly, to see that justice is done.

At least, that's my personal vision of what this group is all about, for whatever that's worth.

Yes, this is what I thought was being spoken of when various posters asked about the establishment of the Council. After all, this forum with all its wonders, its many points of interest and flavors of thought doesn't need another source of 'input'. God knows, one would have to be sextuplets to take advantage of all that is presently on the forum. I - who routinely escape Workers Compensation cases by visiting the forum - miss about 90% of what's going on. Indeed, if I hadn't been "snooping" instead of cleaning, I wouldn't even know that the votes had been tallied and I was elected to the Council!

However, for those who felt "disenfranchised" during the above mentioned debacle (not that this is a "democracy" because it isn't!), I would think that an "arbitration board" without direct connections to the management of the forum would provide a sense of representation that otherwise might be absent, especially if that "board" has some say - perhaps even the final say - in the issue under dispute.

And, let me tell you, I believe that this arrangement would be even more useful to the Moderators! After all, they have no recourse when someone says that they are being unfair or that they are "ganging up" on a member. The individuals involved can deny it till the cows come home, but for those who are having a crisis of trust, such reassurances are moot. On the other hand, a "disinterested" third party provides both members and moderators with protection! And best of all, it should provide closure of any dispute that arises, providing of course, that everyone is willing to accept arbitration. It's "no fair" as the kids would say, opting for arbitration to settle a dispute and then rejecting the finding of the third party arbitrators because it isn't what was wanted! Indeed, only a sincere, serious and forum-wide acceptance of a ruling under such circumstances would make the process viable. Otherwise, the Council becomes just one more "party" on this or that side of the dispute.

Of course, first and foremost, the Council itself (after setting up the means of such arbitration) must also vow to accept the majority decision if it is to work because there is no guarantee that we will all arrive at the same conclusion. In fact, to my mind, small groups of three to five - changing members according to some sort of rotation roster - should act as arbiters in any dispute rather than the entire Council. I suggest this just in case it should happen that one of us is somehow involved in a dispute either through a close friendship with one of the disputants or actually being involved ourselves. This way, with only three to five members, we as Council can choose as members of the arbitration board those who have no conflict of interest. It is just a small suggestion regarding the "nuts and bolts" of the Council's activities, but I just thought I would present it for the members' thoughts.

I would say that our greatest service to the forum would be to act as that "court of last resort", the independent arbiters, and, yes, Yea Gollum, the wailing wall for those who need someone to whom to bring their problems - the sort of "Dear Abby" of TTF! if you will. Of course, whatever "power" might be accorded us in matters of arbitration will arise from the one "giver of power" on the forum. Still, like the God whose Name he uses, once he has made a law, he, too, is subject to it!

I await your comments and thoughts on this! God bless.

[Elbereth]

*I see someone beat me to the punch here...well, I'm glad to see we are up and running*

In reference to the question, "What is the purpose of the C9?", I believe that Mrs. Maggot and FoolofATook have got it right. The council purpose is to be mediators between the members and 'powers that be' (ie: the Mods and WM). Ultimately, if a disagreement arises, it is the job of the mods to take care of it. However, often times...we see that members don't understand why they are being called out or disciplined, and rather than discussing it with the mods in PM's, they bring it into the forum to be discussed...which many times brings more ill will than good. That is when we see issues like the Hurin/Ciryaher case happen.

I have always seen the C9 as a place where the membership can come to voice their concerns, and an impartial jury in times of crisis. Whatever, duties or reponsibilities that entails will be up to us to decide upon.

I think it may be best for us to come up with a Mission statement for the council. That way we and anyone else who comes into the Council of 9 will have a clear idea of what their puropse is suppose to be in this role.

[YayGollum]

Okay, fine. I have no problems with any of that craziness. Well, except maybe the part where we get the final say in things. I thought that was the scary webmaster person. oh well. And the part about the council of nine people getting any scary powers at all. I thought that we were just around to have readily available shoulders to cry on and open hands to hold all the time. Sounds like we know exactly what we're around for now, right?

[FoolOfATook]

I have no interest in being a shoulder to cry on. I'm here because there are problems that need to be addressed, and this seems to be my best shot at it.

[YayGollum]

Gasp! Well, helping out with problems that need to be addressed can be done while offering shoulders all over the place. oh well. You know what I mean. Yay for a mission statement type thing!

[Elbereth]

I think you are both right...

The C9 should focus on dealing with the problems on the forum that need to be dealt with. However, as members of the C9, we need to be there for the member...lending our ears and even our shoulders for their problems.

Perhaps if those in the council do not want to lend thier proverbial shoulders to these members, we could appoint certain positions in council...having each member take on a role. That way we all individually have a purpose on the council.

So those who want to be in charge of lending their ears and shoulder will be responsible for that...while other coucil members will be responsible for presenting ideas to the moderators and WM...and so forth.

[YayGollum]

Hm. Sounds scary to me. Dividing this crazy council of nine thingy. oh well. How's about just a list of people with preferences like in that little moderator section?

[Elbereth]

Actually YayG...that is exactly what I mean. ;)

[HLGStrider]

You remember my thread about mediators? (See Entmoot) I see that sort of thing.

I also see a place people can complain if they think something was poorly handled by a mod. If a thread gets closed when someone thinks it should have just been calmed down for instance. . .

I see us running around putting out fires.

I see us mediating arguements.

I see us telling the mods when someone has a beef.

I see me winning the lottery and marrying Shepherd Smith. . .

Where did that one come from? ;)

[Elbereth]

And I see that most of us are pretty much in agreement.

(ok, maybe not about Elgee winning the lottery and marrying Shephard Smith *who is Shephard Smith?*...but hey if she does more power to her I guess...but I digress!)

As I have said in another thread, I believe that we need to gather these thoughts into a concise and carefully worded Mission statement, so that we and other future C9 members will have a clear sense of what this Council is all about.

That should be our first goal.

[YayGollum]

Oh. Okay. Got it. But it seems to me to be that some of the things you people are talking about will be dealt with in that new suggestion box thing. *runs off to write a mission statement thing*

[Lhunithiliel]

Excuse me for intruding myself into this discussion, but ... if you people intend to work mainly as an arbitrage body , then I guess you're missing some other very important points!

Problems between TTF-members and Mods and/or WM have existed and will exist. Yes, you will be the ones to intermediate and try to help the case to settled.

But reading your posts here, have I noticed anyone of you show concern of how C9 will act on TTF-development? Barely if at all!

And I think, this is one of the major role the C9 should play.

[YayGollum]

Yes. sorry about that. I am an evil person. If you have suggestions, toss them. TTF developement. What do you mean by that? sorry for the confusion. *sniff*

[Lhunithiliel]

Sure! :)

How about take care of cleaning up the "roads" for the major TTF-projects, as the TTF-Herald, the TTF-Discussion tournament etc... ?!

How about putting forward ideas of how to popularize TTF ?
etc...
If you you need me for more... I'll be around ;) :D

[Aulë]

Well FoolOfATook and I are personally organizing the TTF-Debating Tournament, and FoolOfATook and HGLStrider are organising the TTF-Herald. I presume that that would be counted as an example of the projects that you are speaking of.

As far as popularizing TTF, do you mean as in promoting it on other sites? For I think that that would be a task for WM and the senior Mods.

[Mrs. Maggott]

As far as any "power" the Council might wield, well, we better have some power granted to us by the webmaster if we expect the forum to take us seriously. If we have no abritration powers (and by that I don't mean that we would have the power to "remove" moderators or "banish" recalcitrant members) then we will be no more than window dressing. Hopefully, we will be permitted to simply to "settle" disputes perhap, for example, by removing warning points that have been adjudged unwarranted or retaining them when ruled otherwise. In other words, some power to effect a concrete resolution of an existing problem.

In the end, once we have "set up" what we believe to be our function and how we would go about it, we will have to see what the webmaster is willing to provide to us in this area. One hopes that as this Council was deemed worthy of creation, that the "powers that be" will go the rest of the way and provide us with whatever is necessary for us to function.

[YayGollum]

Yikes! Why talk about creepy powers for us? We don't need them. Or am I just a crazy person for believing that we can get things done just by deciding them and tossing decisions at the people with the creepy powers? Aren't we around so the average joe members aren't afraid of someone with all kinds of influence since we wouldn't have all of the creepy powers? That's what I thought. Whoops! What you're talking about just sounds like specialized moderators. It seems to me to be that you're wanting the moderators to just be around to clean up and for us to be around to deal with all of the arguements. In a creepily powerful way.

[FoolOfATook]

It seems to me to be that you're wanting the moderators to just be around to clean up and for us to be around to deal with all of the arguements. In a creepily powerful way.

That's very close to my vision of the Council of Nine....

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Yikes! Why talk about creepy powers for us? We don't need them. Or am I just a crazy person for believing that we can get things done just by deciding them and tossing decisions at the people with the creepy powers? Aren't we around so the average joe members aren't afraid of someone with all kinds of influence since we wouldn't have all of the creepy powers? That's what I thought. Whoops! What you're talking about just sounds like specialized moderators. It seems to me to be that you're wanting the moderators to just be around to clean up and for us to be around to deal with all of the arguements. In a creepily powerful way.

Indeed, not! At least as I envision it. Yes, we can come to a conclusion about a dispute and tell the Moderators and the webmaster what we have concluded, but without some influence (read "power"), what are we but another group of members? If the members see that we are as "powerless" as themselves and have nothing going for us as a group, why should they bother to have recourse to us when they have a problem? They could just as easily post it on the forum and look for support among the membership. If I might remind one and all, that's how the idea of a Council started in the first place - and given where that situation was going in the C/H debacle, it is the one thing we most wish to avoid!

It was my belief (erroneous, perhaps) that we were created to be "ombudsmen" who had some standing/influence/power whatever on the forum to prevent the situation developing into an "us" vs. "them" (members v. mods). But I don't think that concept is going to "fly" if we don't have something to use other than our sterling reputations and good looks (yes, YeaGollum, even your good looks)!

[YayGollum]

The problem I have with that is the influence versus power thing. What's wrong with just being around to work problems out, then toss the decision at the big guys in charge? Or are you just saying that since we get to decide some things, that we should be able to go and edit things or stop things if we decide that's what the moderators should be doing? You're saying that we shouldn't have to bother the people with the scary powers to go do what we just decided? But then, we gots to show what we decide to them anyways, right? It doesn't take that long to close a thread or delete some posts or whatever crazy powers you'd want us to use, does it? I don't think so. I'm thinking that just having influence is less scary than influence and creepy powers. That's how we'd be different from moderators. Who I think would still like helping out and might not be fans of being seen as janitors.

[Mrs. Maggott]

I am not speaking of "editing" or doing things that are in the purview of the moderators. All I am speaking about is being able to apply the powers of arbitration. As you know, an arbiter is someone to whom both sides defer in a matter which has been referred to arbitration. That means that whatever final conclusion the Council reaches regarding a particular situation would be accepted by both sides. Say a poster has received several warning points and does not believe that what he has posted is worthy of same. On the other hand, the moderator who gave the points obviously does believe that the post or posts are deserving of warning points. The Council would look at the posts involved and decide among its members whether or not the warning points are valid. Once the decision is made, it is pm'd to the w/m who either retains or eliminates the points depending upon the Council's decision. Both member and moderator have agreed to accept the Council's ruling as the final say in the matter. It is then closed and not to be dragged into any forum in an attempt to garner support pro or con.

That is how I see at least this particular function of the Council. If this is not what the Council has been created to do, then what on earth is its function?

[YayGollum]

Sure, I agree with all of that. I guess that could be called a creepy power. I just thought of it as the influence type stuff. Whoops! oh well. Problem solved. Looks like we know what we're here for now, right? Does this Lhunithiliel person have any other ideas for us? :D

[Lantarion]

C9 = Positively Glorified Suggestion Box! :D :D
Haha, but seriously: I think Mrs. Maggott made it very clear what the Council is here for. To pass out the party hats and organize the music! :D j/k
Haha, sorry I'm feeling a bit crazy.. It is twenty to one in the morning..

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lantarion
C9 = Positively Glorified Suggestion Box! :D :D
Haha, but seriously: I think Mrs. Maggott made it very clear what the Council is here for. To pass out the party hats and organize the music! :D j/k
Haha, sorry I'm feeling a bit crazy.. It is twenty to one in the morning..
I may be very wrong about the function of the Council and have pointed that out several times! If I am incorrect, I have no problem with what the rest of the members see as our function.

However, I will warn you that I have absolutely no experience in performing many of the more technical functions on the internet in general and these forums in particular. Indeed, I turned down a very sincere request to be a moderator on another forum because I had no experience editing, moving threads and other things moderators do on these forums.

However, I am sure that if some function is decided upon for the Council other than the one(s) I have suggested, I will be able to assimilate whatever I as a member am obligated to do - provided it ain't too technical!

[Elbereth]

I hope that I did not alarm or anger any of you, howerver, I have asked a mod to move this thread to the Private section of the C9 threads. I do not feel it is beneficial to have the rest of the forum see us hash out what is exactly the purpose of the C9. As I could see from the few post made by non-C9 members in this thread, this sort of thing only has caused alarm and apprehension for the rest of the membership.

For now let's keep these discussions to ourselves until we've sorted out who we are and what we going be doing as a council.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Elbereth
I hope that I did not alarm or anger any of you, howerver, I have asked a mod to move this thread to the Private section of the C9 threads. I do not feel it is beneficial to have the rest of the forum see us hash out what is exactly the purpose of the C9. As I could see from the few post made by non-C9 members in this thread, this sort of thing only has caused alarm and apprehension for the rest of the membership.

For now let's keep these discussions to ourselves until we've sorted out who we are and what we going be doing as a council.
I had assumed that it was "private" and limited only to those who had been elected. You see, this is the problem for me; I am unable to discern these things and acted as if we were having a private discussion. Why we weren't, frankly, is kind of beyond me! I would have thought that under the circumstances it would have been a wise thing to do. I am sorry if I have caused problems because I would have pm'd my thoughts had I known that the forum was open to all.

Again, my apologies. :rolleyes:

[Elbereth]

I do not think any of us were aware that the 'Discussion threads' were open to the entire forum. I discovered it last night when I saw a non-C9 member was viewing this thread. And after talking to a mod, I decided it was best to move it in here. I only waited until tonight to request to have it moved because I thought it best to consult Nenya first (as she was the thread starter afterall).

Mrs. Maggot: Don't feel bad that you were not aware...none of us were. It is not your fault. I'm just glad I was able to discover it before more members discovered these discussions.

[YayGollum]

Well, it seems to me to be that everyone's agreeing with this Mrs. Maggott person. Why doesn't she write the little mission statement thing? This place will probably have a lot of polls anyways. There's not much more to do in this thread, is there?

[Elbereth]

Yes, I believe you are correct YayG. I do believe that we may have exhausted this thread. If no one else objects (or has anything else to add), lets assign someone to write up the Mission Statement and post it in the discussion thread.

I would also support Yay's suggestion of having Mrs. Maggott write up the aforementioned Mission Statement, since I believe she has a clear grasp of what the C9 is about. However, it would be up to her to decide whether this is something she would like to take on. Otherwise, if anyone else is willing to take on this role, let yourself be known so that we can resolve this issue and move onto the next topic.

[Wonko The Sane]

First of all, I want everyone to take a step back and look at what you're saying.

Are you REALLY listening to eachother? I mean ACTUALLY listening? ACTUALLY considering people's points of view?

I see a lot of APPEARING to listen by acknowledging other members, and then sequeing to your own original ideas without REALLY addressing other people.


I want this to be a place where everyone is heard and everyone discussed. To say, "Yes. Your idea is great. That's why I suggested we do this..." and to continue talking about ones own ideas doesn't accomplish anything.

I think we should take a moment...take a step back and try to remember that this isn't about us, or our own individual ideas.

While our ideas will come into play it is more the concerns of the forum in general that we need to pay attention to. This isn't for our own personal gain, or our own prestige. It isn't to shout the loudest to be heard. This is for the rest of the forum. So people will feel they have a voice.

Granted it will be our own ideas that shape the C9 as it is our responsibility to outline our duties.

HOWEVER, I believe we should appeal to the members. And ask them what they want us to do for them.

That, in my opinion, should be the first step. And then we can discuss how best to go about shaping the C9.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Elbereth
Yes, I believe you are correct YayG. I do believe that we may have exhausted this thread. If no one else objects (or has anything else to add), lets assign someone to write up the Mission Statement and post it in the discussion thread.

I would also support Yay's suggestion of having Mrs. Maggott write up the aforementioned Mission Statement, since I believe she has a clear grasp of what the C9 is about. However, it would be up to her to decide whether this is something she would like to take on. Otherwise, if anyone else is willing to take on this role, let yourself be known so that we can resolve this issue and move onto the next topic.
I don't think we are ready for a mission statement until all nine of us have made clear what we think that mission is and perhaps discussed the various points of view, especially if any of the ideas posted are mutually exclusive. We have only begun these discussions, so we should not "rush to judgment" without giving everyone time to consider the matter and contribute.

I will be happy to assist in crafting the statement when the time comes, but I don't think the time is quite yet. Furthermore, it should be a joing effort of say, three members of the Council working together who will then bring it back to the rest for their input. Slow and steady is the best way to proceed here.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
First of all, I want everyone to take a step back and look at what you're saying.

Are you REALLY listening to eachother? I mean ACTUALLY listening? ACTUALLY considering people's points of view?

I see a lot of APPEARING to listen by acknowledging other members, and then sequeing to your own original ideas without REALLY addressing other people.


I want this to be a place where everyone is heard and everyone discussed. To say, "Yes. Your idea is great. That's why I suggested we do this..." and to continue talking about ones own ideas doesn't accomplish anything.

I think we should take a moment...take a step back and try to remember that this isn't about us, or our own individual ideas.

While our ideas will come into play it is more the concerns of the forum in general that we need to pay attention to. This isn't for our own personal gain, or our own prestige. It isn't to shout the loudest to be heard. This is for the rest of the forum. So people will feel they have a voice.

Granted it will be our own ideas that shape the C9 as it is our responsibility to outline our duties.

HOWEVER, I believe we should appeal to the members. And ask them what they want us to do for them.

That, in my opinion, should be the first step. And then we can discuss how best to go about shaping the C9.
Certainly, a thread should be opened to the membership asking their input about how they see the Council serving the forum. I am sure that someone can set up such a thread and then have the ubermoderator make his little announcement at the beginning of each section so that everyone is apprised of their opportunity to contribute. Perhaps a poll (someone can make up an appropriate one) will give us a quick "oversight" of concerns.

Also, in a discussion forum, it is everone's responsibility to post even if it is only to say that one agrees with previous posts. If one disagrees then it the poster's duty to give a constructive response. It's not enough to say "no" to this or that idea; one must have constructive alternatives to offer if one is going to reject a particular point of view.

Again, this is not going to be a 'quick' process, nor should it be. Everyone must have whatever time he or she needs to contribute without feeling rushed or harried. I have made my own ideas known about what I see as the main function of the Council (not necessarily its only function) but I am more than willing to go to the membership for their input and I eagerly await the comments of the rest of the Council. Until these are forthcoming, I see no need for me to make further comments unless they are solicited. In such a case, perhaps the member who wishes them can pm me for my response.

God bless.

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh! PLLLEEEAAASSSEEE!
Excuse again the intrusion of a non-C9 - member of TTF
but that crazy Yay person :p has asked about my presence so here I am.

First of all I totally agree with Wonko and Yay about the transparency of the C9 opinions and activities.
Of course, you have your private forum and there I very much hope you all actively discuss the purpose of the newly created Council etc. This is the way it should be!

The transparency I'm speaking about, however, definitely does not coincide with the idea of me - one morning, having my coffee reading statements explaining me what I am expected to do for the C9 and what the C9-powers in this forum are that I should be aware of and observe with awe and admiration. Sorry!

I think that the more you talk to the people of this forum the better for all.

Besides, I think that after you have already accepted the idea that yes, you'll be the intermediaries in disputes, it's high time to move on and come up with a list :

NOT a list of your powers but

WITH a list of your particular suggestions and ideas ofwhat is C9 to do FOR the forum-members.... apart from judging of course ;) :D

Please, talk to us! :)
And let the members know about some program of your activities.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Of course we intend to "talk" to members; more importantly, we intend to listen to members! But remember, sometimes members may not want what they are discussing with members of the Council noised about the forum. C9 has to have a private place to discuss matters that should not be spread all over the forum! Otherwise, we might as well have left it as it was with everyone hashing out everything all over the forum!

Let me put it this way: member 'A' has a problem with member 'B' or moderator 'C'. Member 'A' brings the matter to the Council. This is where the privacy comes in! The Council will wish to talk among ourselves about the matter and perhaps speak privately with member 'B' or moderator 'C'. None of this belongs in the forum! In private, things can be asked and/or said that one may not wish to ask and/or say where everyone can see it. This isn't being "sneaky" or establishing some sort of mysterious "power base"; it is merely making it possible for emerging problems to be solved as quickly and quietly as possible without anything being said which is going to stick in someone's craw after the matter is ostensibly "settled". Without some sort of private communication (outside of pm's, of course), the Council is no more than nine forum members discussing matters on the forum like everybody else. For that, one hardly needed a "Council"!

[Lhunithiliel]

I think I expressed myself in a more or less understandable English.
Lhunithiliel: Of course, you have your private forum and there I very much hope you all actively discuss the purpose of the newly created Council etc. This is the way it should be!
But I still think that arbitering disputes is far not enough a task for the C9.
Besides, right now there is a case for you - Nom! Are you dealing with it?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I think I expressed myself in a more or less understandable English.

But I still think that arbitering disputes is far not enough a task for the C9.
Besides, right now there is a case for you - Nom! Are you dealing with it?
What then would you have the Council do? As I have noted, there is so much activity on this forum that you would have to be three people to engage in everything. Indeed there are complaints arising at least in my Guild, that people aren't doing enough with what is being offered! I know that for myself, whatever added duties accrue with membership in the Council is time that will have to be taken from other parts of the forum! I therefore cannot imagine what possible "activities" you believe the Council should sponsor!

But I am willing to hear from members as to what they think we should be doing as a group. Whether we will be able to do it is quite another matter!

[YayGollum]

Well, here's a lot to say. oh well.

To the Wonko The Sane person ---> sorry if I didn't really sound like I was agreeing with some people. oh well. At least this thread is out in the open again. Or should there be a different thread for average joe type people to say whatever they want to us? I think that this would be a great place for the average joe type people to say what they have to say. That scary webmaster person made a nice list for us to get to as soon as we finish coming up with a master of ceremonies for us.

To the Mrs. Maggott person ---> sorry for talking like I thought you should make the little mission statement thingy right now. I think we gots to go for coming up with the master of ceremonies, then getting to the list I already talked about. Good plan? I like the idea for the little announcement at the beginning of each section idea, but I think it should have something for the average joe type people to add their ideas. Or maybe just a link to this place?

To the Lhunithiel person ---> Got it. Yes, ma'am. What's the problem with the Nom person again? She's not a moderator anymore. That was her choice as far as I know. Sure, maybe she wasn't given enough time to think about it. Okay. Should I go talk to her about it?

[Wonko The Sane]

No, Yay, I don't really have a problem with anything you said specifically.

I was just reading posts and it looked like this:

Bob: Hi I have an opinion. This is my opinion-- Blue.

Frank: Hey, Bob. Blue is a good idea, but I think my idea of Green is better.

Lauren: Well, Green might work. But I just think the best way to do this is Red.

And then:

Bob: You guys offer interesting points of view. But: Blue.

Frank: Thanks. But: Red.

Lauren: GREEN!!!



I didn't see anybody actually responding to eachother in anything more than the most basic way. I think it's necessary for us to REALLY engage in dialogue, rather than only appear to. *sigh*

[HLGStrider]

I thought we were discussing things fairly well, but I see that we have some differences which aren't easy to compromise:

the view of whether arguements should be settled privately or not, for instance.

Either things are settled privately or they aren't. . .unless we make every other post private. . . This is something we'll have to decide.

To me it is more sensible to have arguements between members negotiated in private at least in the early stages. This way the fight doesn't spread to other members.

I think we all agree that we are going to mediate fights.

Is there anything else we agree on?

[YayGollum]

Ah. Got it.

To the Wonko The Sane person ---> Blue.

Anyways, sure, I'd go for us fixing things in private, PMing people involved for their take on things, grabbing information for ourselves, then tossing the decision into the thread where the problem started or just at the people with the problem tossed at each other. Things like that, I thought. Also, the mediate fight things was obvious, right? sorry if it wasn't.

[Mrs. Maggott]

I don't know if every dispute must be privately settled; much would, I guess, depend upon the nature of the dispute.

However, what I believe should be kept private is our handling of these matters. After all, does anyone really want the members to read one's innermost thoughts on this things? Suppose someone believes that the member involved is being a colossal pain in the rubber plant? Do you want that person (or a friend) to read that particular opinion? I don't! But by the same token, I don't want to be hamstrung by having to couch my every comment on the matter under consideration in order to avoid anyone being offended simply because the entire forum can read it! And remember, especially as the Council begins to function - that is, feels its way through the process - it might be wiser to keep our fumbling first attempts away from the forum at large. It's one thing to make a fool of oneself before eight other members - and quite another to enlarge the audience by a factor of 10 to the nth. It's kind of like sausage: it's better that one does not discover what is covered over by the outward appearance!

[YayGollum]

Yikes! oh well. I don't mind saying anything I believe in in front of anybody, but oh well. Sure, I can see why some people would like things nice and private. Looks like you're agreeing with what I had to say. Yay! Anything else? I'm not trying to be a hare. just wondering. *hides*

[Wonko The Sane]

Elgee, for the most part these discussions are going tolerably well.
But I have been watching for a while without posting to see how people are functioning, and I see a lot of people APPEARING to be listening to eachother, but not actually listening. And it frustrates me.

As far as the public private debate:

To me it is more sensible to have arguements between members negotiated in private at least in the early stages. This way the fight doesn't spread to other members.

I think we all agree that we are going to mediate fights.

Is there anything else we agree on?

You are right that it is important to have a private area for disputing things. And yes. I do agree with trying to mediate fights.

The early stages should be private, I agree with Els. When a complaint is voiced we should post it in our private forum. Creating a new thread for each new complaint so we can deal with each issue separately. I think that trying to settle the problem through PMs would be a good idea. Yay Said: PMing people involved for their take on things, grabbing information for ourselves, then tossing the decision into the thread where the problem started or just at the people with the problem tossed at each other. Things like that, I thought

That's a good start. We do need to begin with gathering information through PMs or MSN, and by reading the threads involved. In order to know what threads are involved we should start with a sort of "model" PM to a C9 member so that when they have a complaint they know what to tell us, and they can give us the information we need to start discussing it.

Then we can take action by reading the threads, gathering additional info, talking to the "other side" of the argument, etc. If the problem can be solved this way through mediation then we leave it at that. If it is more complex a group discussion involving the C9, and those involved in the dispute may be necessary.
It may be possible to do this on a chat on MSN, but if it is not possible we should have a public discussion to hear all points of view. And to give those not directly involved, but who have opinions nonetheless, a chance to speak their peace.

We should continue a private discussion about the public deliberations and when we decide the public deliberations have served their purpose or that we have learned what we need to learn then we should close the thread.

Then we can return to our private forum, still PMing or MSNing people if necessary to gain more information as we continue, but to ultimately make our final decision.

Then when our decision has been made we can choose a spokesperson to post it public discussion thread as well as to PM those members involved. HOWEVER, I propose we do not simply post the final decision, but also post a synopsis of our reasons and our methods at arriving at our final decision.

This can be collaboratively constructed withinour private discussion, and when the time comes we simply chose a spokesperson to copy and paste our collaborative decision onto the public forum.

How does this sound to you?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Yikes! oh well. I don't mind saying anything I believe in in front of anybody, but oh well. Sure, I can see why some people would like things nice and private. Looks like you're agreeing with what I had to say. Yay! Anything else? I'm not trying to be a hare. just wondering. *hides*
I'm sure that all of us on the Council are willing to voice our opinions openly (and have done often), but there are times when we may have to deliberate about other members and say things that we might not wish everyone to see because we are no longer speaking about ourselves but about other members. That in and of itself should necessitate privacy because I know that I would be hesitant to bring a matter to the Council if it were going to be publicly deliberated.

[YayGollum]

Yes, yes, yes. I already said that I understood why some people would want to keep some things private. oh well. Yay for the Wonko The Sane person's little summary. Sounds good to me. sorry for just saying blue. sorry that my little summary was a little too simple. :rolleyes:

[Wonko The Sane]

Saying blue was funny, Yay. :) Lightened the mood and made me laugh! :)

I agree that at stages we DO need to keep things private. But we need to discuss when those times should be.

Yay, I see you like my summary, but any suggestions or comments on it? I'd like to open this up to dialogue rather than a simple, "Yay for this" that doesn't really say much about your approval, etc.

[YayGollum]

Got it. I'll spell it out.

"That's a good start."

Yay for a compliment directed at me!

"We do need to begin with gathering information through PMs or MSN, and by reading the threads involved. In order to know what threads are involved we should start with a sort of "model" PM to a C9 member so that when they have a complaint they know what to tell us, and they can give us the information we need to start discussing it."

I agree. What else is there to say? How's about ---> Sounds like we'll come up with the model PM soon?

"Then we can take action by reading the threads, gathering additional info, talking to the "other side" of the argument, etc. If the problem can be solved this way through mediation then we leave it at that. If it is more complex a group discussion involving the C9, and those involved in the dispute may be necessary.
It may be possible to do this on a chat on MSN, but if it is not possible we should have a public discussion to hear all points of view. And to give those not directly involved, but who have opinions nonetheless, a chance to speak their peace."

I agree. What else is there to say? How's about ---> You're talking about more complex problems needing a group discussion. The superly small things (common sense to find them) don't need any group discussion at all?

"We should continue a private discussion about the public deliberations and when we decide the public deliberations have served their purpose or that we have learned what we need to learn then we should close the thread."

Sounds good to me. sorry for just being blue there.

"Then we can return to our private forum, still PMing or MSNing people if necessary to gain more information as we continue, but to ultimately make our final decision."

Yay! Wait. Whoops!

"Then when our decision has been made we can choose a spokesperson to post it public discussion thread as well as to PM those members involved. HOWEVER, I propose we do not simply post the final decision, but also post a synopsis of our reasons and our methods at arriving at our final decision."

That makes all kinds of sense to me. I feel bad about not mentioning it before since I already thought of it. I nominate myself to always post the final decision! just to add another comment for you.

"This can be collaboratively constructed within our private discussion, and when the time comes we simply chose a spokesperson to copy and paste our collaborative decision onto the public forum."

I just noticed that you said that twice. Or did I copy things wrong? oh well.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
What then would you have the Council do?
***shrugs***
Ah! Well... I see it's hopeless... I'd rather not bother you any more...
Excuse me for not being able to make you see what I had in mind!

Oh! Just one silly question before I go fo good.

Say, and what if a forum member has a problem with a C9-member? :p Who's going to judge then, members of the jury? ;)

[Idril]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
I'm sure that all of us on the Council are willing to voice our opinions openly (and have done often), but there are times when we may have to deliberate about other members and say things that we might not wish everyone to see because we are no longer speaking about ourselves but about other members. That in and of itself should necessitate privacy because I know that I would be hesitant to bring a matter to the Council if it were going to be publicly deliberated.
If this refers to the parties involved in a dispute, then they should have full access to what is being said about them - I do not mean the entire forum membership. But if I had a problem and brought it to you - I would want to 'see' all that's being said on the issue as should the other party. Now if we are talking about members not directly involved in a situation, I cannot understand why you would want to be 'talking about them' behind their backs.

Mrs Maggott says Indeed, not! At least as I envision it. Yes, we can come to a conclusion about a dispute and tell the Moderators and the webmaster what we have concluded, but without some influence (read "power"), what are we but another group of members? If the members see that we are as "powerless" as themselves and have nothing going for us as a group, why should they bother to have recourse to us when they have a problem? They could just as easily post it on the forum and look for support among the membership. If I might remind one and all, that's how the idea of a Council started in the first place - and given where that situation was going in the C/H debacle, it is the one thing we most wish to avoid!

It was my belief (erroneous, perhaps) that we were created to be "ombudsmen" who had some standing/influence/power whatever on the forum to prevent the situation developing into an "us" vs. "them" (members v. mods). But I don't think that concept is going to "fly" if we don't have something to use other than our sterling reputations and good looks (yes, YeaGollum, even your good looks)!
I didn't realise C9 would have a binding arbitration role. As I understood it, you would mediate and help represent and support a member if a dispute arose ie. with a mod. I always assumed the WM had the final say - the judge so to speak, not C9. If I have misinterpretated this, I apologise in advance.

What happens if the dispute is between 2 members - how would this be dealt with - who would support who? as 9 is an uneven number, what if C9 did not want to support one party ie. because you didn't agree with them or can't see or understand their point of view? I am not expecting immediate answers on this, but it has to be considered for the future.

As for this particular thread being in private - I don't agree. The members voted you in, and I think we should be able to see where C9 is is going and the performance of our representatives in it's development. It's fascinating 'watching' you at work;) If I understand correctly, one of the reasons C9 has come about is because of the 'need for transparency'. If you don't want ordinary members 'joining' in, or 'interferring' on this discussion, perhaps you can set up a thread for us to discuss your discussions.

Since the WM has set up the new suggestion box - I think using C9 as a route for new ideas has now become mute at present, but they may come a time when it is needed again - we seem to be in a period of 'openness' at the moment, with the WM considering ideas and taking some on board.

Lhunithiliel says Say, and what if a forum member has a problem with a C9-member? Who's going to judge then, members of the jury? This is a valid question and I hope in time, we have an answer to this.

One of the other roles of C9 ( as I understood) was to be a 'think tank' for the future and developement of TTF, as Lhunithiliel has pointed out, no one seems to be addressing this aspect thus far.

I appreciate this is all new; the concept of C9, it's roles etc, but it does need to start and then develop in time from there. This is not having a 'go' at the group, but there would appear to be all talk and no action - I may be wrong and this is going on behind closed doors - in which case - sorry. The Mission Statement is a good start - and it can be added to as your role develops. Start small and grow bigger, rather than trying to start big and have it all sorted in the first instance.

These are just my own thought and opinions from reading this thread and the old ones discussion C9's inception. I know you will all do an admirable job on this new venture.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Certainly the reasons the Council - or a majority thereof - reach a decision (and the decision itself, naturally) should be public. But the deliberations leading up to that decision in my opinion, should be private. Deliberations, like the ingredients in sausage, are sometimes not all that appetizing.

Furthermore, public deliberations may seriously constrain Council members from voicing all of their thoughts on the matter under consideration. That means that the Council may present a decision on something that is not reflected in its deliberations simply because Council members did not wish to air their thoughts on a public thread. When that happens, concerns are not addressed (because no one knew that they existed) and members may wind up voting one way whereas had those concerns been addressed, they may have voted differently.

In the end, what is done publicly (maybe everything) or privately (if anything) by the Council is probably in the hands of the Web Master or it may be left to the forum to vote upon it. I really don't know. There are "pros" and "cons" in any situation. My desire for at least a certain amount of privacy (other than pm's) is to permit the Council to "hash out" various matters without the need to be concerned that someone's thoughts might be misunderstood or that a sincere opinion by a Council member may become a "cause celeb" itself on the forum. Frankly, I don't know of anyone who ran for the Council either actively or, such as myself, passively, who wishes to be placed in that kind of position. I know that I don't and I am very careful indeed when I post on personal issues; there are others who are less timid in voicing their opinions.

Frankly, the elevated level of concern that even these fairly harmless deliberations have so far provoked seems to me to be proof enough of a need for some privacy. However, I will abide by whatever is decided in the end.

[Idril]

I'm sorry Mrs Maggott, honestly, I am not having a 'go' at you or any C9 member, I'm just trying to understand what's going on.

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
Certainly the reasons the Council - or a majority thereof - reach a decision (and the decision itself, naturally) should be public. But the deliberations leading up to that decision in my opinion, should be private. Deliberations, like the ingredients in sausage, are sometimes not all that appetizing.


What 'decisions' are you refering too? As for the mediation aspect of C9, it does not require any decisions on the part of the council (and I agree mediation should be in a private area between the involved parties and C9).

Frankly, the elevated level of concern that even these fairly harmless deliberations have so far provoked seems to me to be proof enough of a need for some privacy.

This seems to be a bit harsh; describing forum members having a discussion. I think the mere fact that C9 has been elected by fellow members, equates to some, if not most of your work being in public. I may be wrong, but I've seen nothing on this thread that should have been 'hidden' from other members ( only 2 ordinary members have posted here and that includes myself, so your reference must be directed towards us).

At this point, I think it would be feasible for you (C9) to approach the WM for his opinion and advice.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Idril
( only 2 ordinary members have posted here and that includes myself, so your reference must be directed towards us).


I'm not posting, but I'm watching like a hawk!

:D ;)

Any comments I have will be sent by PM to the concerned C9-er.

[Walter]

Just because members don't "interfer" here, doesn't mean none is paying heed to this section...

Some are watching this closely... ;)

[Mrs. Maggott]

There is a real problem here which has to do with the fact that as of yet, we don't know what the Council has been created to do. However, as noted in the previous post, members are already "watching like hawks". I think that this validates the point I have made about "heightened concerns". I was of the opinion that the Council was created to function as a mediator between forum members and other forum members or moderators when such mediation was deemed necessary by either party. Other than that, I really cannot see a reason for its existence! As I have noted, the forum has a great deal of activity in many different areas available to the membership. It hardly needs another member or body creating still more activities.

As may be noted, I did not seek membership on the Council. Rather, I was asked by someone who was considering nominating me whether or not I would be willing to serve. Having been a (small) part of the H/C matter earlier (a matter in which, I believe, this Council's creation had been brought up), I felt that I could do no less than be available to serve the forum if I were asked to do so. To me, preventing unpleasantness and providing a place where members could go if they felt they had a problem which was not being properly addressed in the ordinary channels - and, by the way, offering a place where moderators could also be heard - was a worthwhile endeavor. If this is not the reason or at least one of the reasons why the Council has been created, then I frankly do not know why it has been brought into existence. I do not know any of the worthy members nominated or elected who didn't have enough to do on the forum before the Council was created.

Now, having said that, let me say that if arbitration is part of the Council's duties, then certainly deliberation among the members of the Council should be private. There is nothing threatening or conspiratorial about that, it is just plain common sense. If we are going to speak about other members (and what else would we be doing in such a situation?) does anyone really want all of that available for everyone to read? I don't! Furthermore, I would feel most constrained under such a situation and would probably carry on whatever information gathering I needed to do or questions I needed to ask through pm's to other Council members rather than on a public thread.

Furthermore, I believe that once the Council has the information it needs to render a decision, then any vote on that decision should also be private. It could even be anonymous (a "poll") so that even we don't know how the other members voted. Then, as in the court system, someone would be chosen to deliver the Council's decision together with the reasoning behind it on a public thread. At least this is how I see it being done with the least amount of ill feeling arising out of the process.

But, as noted, this is my opinion alone. I don't know how others feel about it and there is no sense in getting caught up in creating a process if it may be that the Council won't even be performing that duty! The main thing is to discover what the Council is supposed to do and for that we do need member input as well as input from the "powers that be".

[Idril]

Originally posted by Walter
Just because members don't "interfer" here, doesn't mean none is paying heed to this section...
hehe, you found me out Walter! I'm just an interfering old busy body:D (actually it is kinda funny as it's my surname) hmmm....

But seriously, I didn't mean to interfer. The thread doesn't specify "only C9 member".

As I suggested, a word with WM might be in order for some kind of clarification.

*crawls away to suffer her nicotine withdrawal in misery:(*

[Walter]

Let me throw in one more sentence: There exists a thread from last summer, where (at least some of) the original purpose of the C9 has been discussed at length, maybe that could be of some help...

[Aulë]

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5690
This one?

[Walter]

Originally posted by Aulë
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5690
This one? Yup!

[Nóm]

Besides, right now there is a case for you - Nom! Are you dealing with it?
Thanks for the concern, Lhunithiliel.
I have been talking to Beorn about it though. It seems they now have a plan for the book forums, and they also have ithrynluin now. I do not fully know their plan, but I think I'll just have to wait and see how things turn out. I don't know if there is really a problem outside of I offended some people, and I do not know how the C9 could help with this, unless it is to get me in trouble for insulting the leadership (which included WM very much) or for saying "damn" and whatnot.

One thing you guys might do in the future, and the most important reason I see for even having this C9 thing, is to make sure Webmaster knows what people are saying.

For example, he made a post saying that a mod was lost because of off-topic posts. If he was refering to me he is dead wrong.

I really think people have trouble being heard, and C9 can help them be heard.

To me, the most important thing is that you be a link between WM and members. Hear the members!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Nóm
Thanks for the concern, Lhunithiliel.
I have been talking to Beorn about it though. It seems they now have a plan for the book forums, and they also have ithrynluin now. I do not fully know their plan, but I think I'll just have to wait and see how things turn out. I don't know if there is really a problem outside of I offended some people, and I do not know how the C9 could help with this, unless it is to get me in trouble for insulting the leadership (which included WM very much) or for saying "damn" and whatnot.

One thing you guys might do in the future, and the most important reason I see for even having this C9 thing, is to make sure Webmaster knows what people are saying.

For example, he made a post saying that a mod was lost because of off-topic posts. If he was refering to me he is dead wrong.

I really think people have trouble being heard, and C9 can help them be heard.


To me, the most important thing is that you be a link between WM and members. Hear the members!

Forgive me for asking, but what are the action(s) that can cause a moderator to be removed? It would seem to me given that "mods" are volunteering their time to help on the forum, some considerable "sin" should have to be committed (or the same "sin" committed repeatedly after suitable warnings) for this to happen. I cannot imagine that it would be the result of a mere error, oversight or misunderstanding - at least it would make no sense to me if a moderator could be expelled for such a benign mistake.

I know that this is none of my business, but in these threads there seems to be concern about the Council expanding into duties performed by moderators - and frankly, aside from moving threads to more appropriate sites, responding to complaints and issuing the occasional warning point, I have no idea what moderators do! I certainly don't want to be seen suggesting that the Council undertake something that is in the province of the moderators because as sure as God made little green apples, there will be those who will see some sinister plan in it!

Thanks.

[YayGollum]

Mrs. Maggott person, all of the people that used to be moderators but aren't now aren't because they asked to be let go. No big deal.

Anyways, Yay for this Idril person! Cool! You know what would also be cool? We have all of these creepy private places. Why don't we have a creepy private place just for the people involved in the crazy issues we'll have to deal with? We could always just clean the place out every time we have a new thing to deal with? Sure, I would hope that we'd have more than one thing going on at a time. That's fine. I hope you people know what I mean.

Also, the thing about problems with one of these nine people over here could be dealt with just like any other problem, I would think. The one involved would just sit and defend himself like any other person in one of these crazy problems.

Did I address everything?

[HLGStrider]

The problem with the above mention thread was it never really decided anything. . .blah. . .

Anyway, we're still here.

I like the mediating idea.

[Nóm]

We have all of these creepy private places. Why don't we have a creepy private place just for the people involved in the crazy issues we'll have to deal with?
I've asked Beorn the computer guy about this before. I don't remember exactly what he said but something to the effect of it would be very difficult to do. Maybe he'll reply here and tell us again.

I think something like this would be of great help, but if it is not realistic to do it, then I think maybe a member could contact whichever C9 member they want and just deal with them, and that C9 could go to the rest of the C9 for advice if need be.

So whoever is contacted by the member will be in charge of that specific situation.

[HLGStrider]

What about group pming? I always wondered if that was a possiblity. You know, sending multiple people a pm at once and then have it so everyone can see what everyone is pming? It would be kind of clumsy. . .a lot more so than threads. . .or chat of somesort. . .blah!

Never mind.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Now you are beginning to understand all those old sayings like: "a camel is a horse put together by a committee" and "things get done by committees of one".

The devil is in the details - and the logistics! ;) :rolleyes: :p :eek:

[FoolOfATook]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
It would be kind of clumsy. . .a lot more so than threads. . .or chat of somesort. . .blah!

Never mind.

Nenya and I actually already spoke about the possibility of a Council of Nine chat, but rejected the idea because of time issues-with one member living on Aussie time, and no more than three or four of us online at the same time anyway, it would be a logistical nightmare, I think.

[HLGStrider]

No chat then. . .I think thread is the best way, but there is no way to keep it private. . .so maybe whether or not we want privacy is pointless. .. .

[FoolOfATook]

Well, for privacy we have the private forum, plus PMs and discussions over MSN or AIM. I doubt that we'll be handling issues that require much more secrecy than that. ;)

[HLGStrider]

I need to download my msn again. . .blah. . .

how many of you did I have as contacts? You know, I didn't know who half my contacts were!

[Aulë]

I was wondering why you hadn't been on MSN for a while...
:)
And of the C9, I think that 8 of us have MSN (Myself, FoaT, Anamatar, Nenya, Elbe, Elgee, YayG and Wonks).
I'm not sure about Mrs. M.

And it still may be possible for the chat option.
Of the above, I see most online fairly often.
I'm usually online from 0000GMT to 0600GMT on weekdays, and from 1900GMT to 0800GMT on weekends.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Aulë
I was wondering why you hadn't been on MSN for a while...
:)
And of the C9, I think that 8 of us have MSN (Myself, FoaT, Anamatar, Nenya, Elbe, Elgee, YayG and Wonks).
I'm not sure about Mrs. M.

And it still may be possible for the chat option.
Of the above, I see most online fairly often.
I'm usually online from 0000GMT to 0600GMT on weekdays, and from 1900GMT to 0800GMT on weekends.
Alas, no. All I have is my e-mail and the pm's on this site. My machine is elderly (like its user) and my competency with these matters is limited, so I tend to stick with stuff that hasn't blown up in my face.

I have no problem with those of you who do have this capability discussing matters amongst yourselves and keeping me apprised occasionally as problems arise and/or decisions are reached. I doubt that I would be greatly opposed to most of what the majority concludes. And, of course, if I am brought into the "loop" early on discussions, I can always pm my thoughts to one of you for consideration by the rest.

[Wonko The Sane]

I've been away for a while but I'm back now.

Nenya and I were just discussing this kind of disease of self-importance and ego inflation that's befallen the forum.

People are struggling for power, and bandying their conflicts with eachother all over the forum both here and on MERPG. She and I will both admit our guilt in the past. ;)

However, I see this same thing in the C9. A lot of arguing with not a lot being discussed.

What we really need to do is stop thinking about ourselves, and what our own opinions mean, but to thin about others and their opinions, and the forum in general. We need to start REALLY listening to eachother so that we can work together.

We should be as one body, where we all function in accordance with eachother, and even when one says something contrary to another's opinion we can work it out calmly, rationally, and smoothly. Rather than always grating against eachother and bringing this whole machine to a grinding halt.

[Mrs. Maggott]

I don't think one can compare what we post on other threads wherein we are operating individually with what we do within the Council in which we are supposed to be operating as a group albeit we still may come to individual conclusions on various matters.

The desire to take a leadership position is not "bad" providing one is able to maintain a good perspective regarding similar desires by others under the same circumstances. Certainly it would seem to me that there will be sufficient opportunities for all those who wish to be in a "leadership position" within the Council to occupy that position during their terms so that should put an end for any need for hard feelings in this respect.

[Wonko The Sane]

You're right that it may be unfair to make assumptions about people's motivations in wanting to be leader based on their posts on other threads.

But for a few people at least I'm reasonably certain that personal gain, self-importance and/or notoriety is high on their list of reasons for wanting to be leader.

[HLGStrider]

Personally, I just like to have my hands in everything. . .;)

I thought we were pretty settled. . .everytime I think we're getting settled someone posts that we aren't and I get all confused. . .it isn't fair!

I think I'll go pout.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
You're right that it may be unfair to make assumptions about people's motivations in wanting to be leader based on their posts on other threads.

But for a few people at least I'm reasonably certain that personal gain, self-importance and/or notoriety is high on their list of reasons for wanting to be leader.
As long as they function well, I don't care if they have their picture on a box of Wheaties as Council Chairman! Remember, folks like Winston Churchill and FDR and many notable others were not "thrust" into leadership, they actively sought it and wanted it - badly! Yet they were great leaders! Give me a egotist who does a good job over a modest soul who hasn't a clue any day!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Personally, I just like to have my hands in everything. . .;)

I thought we were pretty settled. . .everytime I think we're getting settled someone posts that we aren't and I get all confused. . .it isn't fair!

I think I'll go pout.
But you're so cute when you pout!

What say we stop "jawboning" (before all our collective terms are up) and pick a Chairman already. I for one nominate Wonko the Sane!:p

The ball is now in all your courts! (Unless of course, this violates the charter which I haven't seen. Has it been posted in its finished state yet?) :eek:

[Wonko The Sane]

*eyes widening*
Why ME?!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
*eyes widening*
Why ME?!
Well, to begin with, you are certainly qualified. Secondly, there really isn't anything for the first Chairman to do since we aren't really set up to engage in the activities for which we were "called into being".

However, having said that, I have great faith that you could direct the set up of these matters (including the "pairing" of the rest of us if the Council decides to adopt that system) and interact with the W.M. and the moderators to get everything ready to "launch" the Council on its way.

Since nothing sinister appears to be brewing on the forum, your term should simply be one of letting the membership know who and what we are and what services we offer to them. You are articulate, non-threatening and "sane", so you won't ruffle any feathers among the members or the "admins". Then having inaugurated the Council in all its glory, you term would be over and you could (like me) retire to blessed anonymity until such time as some crisis arises or some other service to the forum appears to which the Council should respond and then you would do so as a "mere" member and not Chairman.

Of course, if you don't want it, as has been noted, there are others who do, so we won't be "left in the lurch" so to speak!

[Walter]

Wonko would indeed be a good choice, IMHO, but so would you, my dear Mrs. Maggott.

What has never been finally settled in the pervious discussions about the C9, was the question whether the C9 would only become active when appealed, or whether it would become intitiative when the members see fit.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Walter
Wonko would indeed be a good choice, IMHO, but so would you, my dear Mrs. Maggott.

What has never been finally settled in the pervious discussions about the C9, was the question whether the C9 would only become active when appealed, or whether it would become intitiative when the members see fit.
To my mind (sans charter), it should be fluid. It may be that someone on the Council would find a perfect place for us to support a forum initiative or make an important suggestion.

On the other hand, our main focus (again to my mind) should be our service to the membership and that, of course, would require someone to approach us to "activate" our function.

I think (when I do) that the worst thing for us to do as the "first" Council is to try to set everything in stone. When one attempts to "define" everything, the result is usually the need to constantly "amend" and "rewrite" that attempt. We should be a rather amorphous group not in structure (given our finite number, the desire for a "leader" and the possibility of us "pairing off" for efficiency) but in function. As time goes on, we (or our successors) will doubtless find out where we "fit in" on the forum.

Frankly, right now I think our most important contribution to the forum has been nothing more than the knowledge by the members that the W.M. and the moderators have attempted to address a perceived need for such a body. Even if we do nothing but dither about for the next nine months (or less, now), we at least exist and the members will take heart knowing that they have a mediator between themselves and the forum's administration.

[Nenya Evenstar]

First of all, I think the C9 is making progress. The charter is being developed even as we speak and should be available today or soon after.

Second of all, we already have a Chairman and have had a Chairman for a week.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Second of all, we already have a Chairman and have had a Chairman for a week. Hmmm, the posts in this thread, even those of C9 members did't sound like that. Or did just not all members know about this?

[Nenya Evenstar]

The C9 members are not paying attention. :(

But yes, we have a Chairman. We have worked out a system of rotating everyone willing to serve so that everyone gets a chance to be the Chairman.

The Chairman is nothing big and only is a person to keep order and keep things moving within the Council itself. All C9 members are still completely equal. I believe that the C9 is keeping who the chairman is at any given time a secret so that the members of the forum do not think the Chairman has more power.

The Chairman is a private C9 function . . . no one really needs to worry about it at all. All C9 members are still exactly equal.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
The C9 members are not paying attention. :(

But yes, we have a Chairman. We have worked out a system of rotating everyone willing to serve so that everyone gets a chance to be the Chairman.

The Chairman is nothing big and only is a person to keep order and keep things moving within the Council itself. All C9 members are still completely equal. I believe that the C9 is keeping who the chairman is at any given time a secret so that the members of the forum do not think the Chairman has more power.


The Chairman is a private C9 function . . . no one really needs to worry about it at all. All C9 members are still exactly equal. Aha!

[HLGStrider]

At the moment Anamatar is up, and we will rotate every month or so. . . The rest of us will be divided into working pairs, which is being discussed but has not yet been accomplished.

[Bethelarien]

Please excuse my intrusion. I am but a humble writer for the TTF Herald, and it has been suggested that we (I) do a piece on C9, meaning that I interview each of you in turn. This would also, in my opinion, be a wonderful opportunity to let the whole of TTF about your purpose (assuming that you've finally agreed on what it is) and about any plans you have for TTF.

I'd appreciate it if you'd PM me if you're interested. Thank you.

[YayGollum]

I sent a PM that was probably too long-winded. oh well. I am obviously the most fun to talk to council of nine type person. Right? :eek: oh well. Maybe not. *bawls*

[HLGStrider]

I'm game. . .I think you knew that though because of my response in the Herald thread. . .I'll pm you anyway.

[Bethelarien]

YG, your PM was hilarious! Here's my list so far, in order of interview:

1) YayGollum
2) HLGStrider
3) Elbereth

If there are any problems with the order, let me know. I'm working on questions currently.

[Wonko The Sane]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
Well, to begin with, you are certainly qualified. Secondly, there really isn't anything for the first Chairman to do since we aren't really set up to engage in the activities for which we were "called into being".

However, having said that, I have great faith that you could direct the set up of these matters (including the "pairing" of the rest of us if the Council decides to adopt that system) and interact with the W.M. and the moderators to get everything ready to "launch" the Council on its way.

Since nothing sinister appears to be brewing on the forum, your term should simply be one of letting the membership know who and what we are and what services we offer to them. You are articulate, non-threatening and "sane", so you won't ruffle any feathers among the members or the "admins". Then having inaugurated the Council in all its glory, you term would be over and you could (like me) retire to blessed anonymity until such time as some crisis arises or some other service to the forum appears to which the Council should respond and then you would do so as a "mere" member and not Chairman.

Of course, if you don't want it, as has been noted, there are others who do, so we won't be "left in the lurch" so to speak!

Wow...:) That's so nice of you...such a vote of confidence. Thank you. :)
I may take the chairman's seat later on, but right now I'll sit back. I think more can get done this way...I don't need the name of Chairman to work things out, and I don't actually believe the C9 needs a chairman at all. So I want to try to get things done without having to "be in charge"....if that makes sense. :) But I've been devoting a lot of time and energy to things in the past few days, and I think we've gotten a lot done. My next task is to tackle FoaT and see if I can't get him to let me help with the charter. :)

Beth, I think your article is a great idea! :) I'm super eager for my turn to be interviewed! :)