Selecting New Moderators

[Ancalagon]

Hello Mr WM,

I was wondering about your selection process for new moderators within the forum. As I know you are trying to keep a watchful eye on the forum as a whole, the fact remains you don't know too much about the individuals themselves, so it would seem you must seek the advice of your SuperMod or Mods, in which case the fear might be that the selection could be rather biased.
In such a large, thriving forum, do you not think it would be prudent to allow either members or the C9 (or both) to have more influence on selection, proposal, voting and implementation of new moderators, rather than simply telling us who they are. I know you are a keen political animal yourself, which is why a democratic process seems the most practical and just option...either that or it is simply 'jobs for the boys' among an inner circle of close friends, which may already be apparent, or at least, about to be!
I think that would be a dreadful shame in a forum of 2000+ members.

[YayGollum]

Yes, I was just talking about this with one of those other council of nine type people. I thought that it made all kinds of sense for the council of nine to get to nominate and vote on new moderators coming in. You know. Like that electoral college type thing. It's faster than letting everyone decide. Or am I just being too evil and we should always let everyone decide? I don't know. just tossing ideas out there. *hides*

[Ancalagon]

I guess the bottom line is that WM doesnt need worry as his forum is being well looked after by people who are chosen by the C9, whom as we know are 'just and true!'

Then at least people arent overlooked because they may have had a petty squabble in the past with a mod, or they arent someones 'special friend' or such nonsence as that!

[YayGollum]

There we go! Makes all kinds of sense to me! Except maybe that 'just and true' thing. :rolleyes: oh well. I can't wait to see what people have to say about this. I would have thought that this would obviously and already be a great job for the council of nine type people, but oh well. *runs away*

[Idril]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
it is simply 'jobs for the boys' among an inner circle of close friends, which may already be apparent, or at least, about to be!
I think that would be a dreadful shame in a forum of 2000+ members.

I does already appear as this is the case :( - (with a couple of exceptions).

My concern with YayGollum's idea of involving C9 in the selection process, is that it may lead to the same sort of thing - jobs of the boys, amongst friends.

My only idea on this subject is - persons should be able to volunteer themselves as possible candidates, which I understand from other posts in another thread, this is 'frown upon', and lowers your chances - and rather than it turn into a just a popularity contest by voting - allow members to voice any serious objections regarding that person's suitability (privately to the WM - we don't want to upset anyone publically ) and he would make the decision. WM can then explain (privately) to anyone not chosen, the reason for the decision.

[YayGollum]

Hm? Why do you think that the council of nine type people would end up doing the same thing? just wondering. I thought that we were pretty diversified. Silly me. oh well. sorry if a few of these little councelor type people are friends with any of the moderator types. I'm not, though! No need to worry there! :rolleyes: oh well. Whatever you people decide. I also suggested just letting everyone decide, though. *hides*

[Idril]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Hm? Why do you think that the council of nine type people would end up doing the same thing? just wondering. I thought that we were pretty diversified.

At the moment - but chances are that over time, C9 will become a bit of a clique. I didn't mean to disparage anyone on C9 (I apologise if it came across as such) - I think out of the 9 elected, I voted for 7 - so C9 is pretty much my choice. But as within any group /organisation, this tends to happen. There may be a very capable and suitable person for Mod and because you don't know them or have had no contact with that person, should they be discounted? Popularity with the masses and the 'powers that be' seem to be the trick.

[YayGollum]

Oh. Got it. sorry about that. Yes, that makes all kinds of sense to me. Sure, I guess that it could just so happen that sometime, some group of nine people that get into the council of nine thing will turn out to be achingly evil and they'll try to only get good friends to be moderators, but only because they're good friends and not because they'd be especially and achingly good at the job. oh well. How often do you think we won't run into a superly diversified group? How often do we actually have to find new moderators? just wondering. oh well. I gots to go to bed!

[Idril]

Originally posted by YayGollum
some group of nine people that get into the council of nine thing will turn out to be achingly evil and they'll try to only get good friends to be moderators, but only because they're good friends and not because they'd be especially and achingly good at the job.

*sighs* - a very long one at that:) That's not what I said or implied. I'm going to leave it at that for now - I thought this thread was set up for suggestions:confused:


edited spelling error:(

[dapence]

Okay, hears the deal.

I've decided that, rather than have a general group of Moderators, each covering the entire site, that each forum and/or category will have their own group of Moderators. Members interested only in the 'book fora,' would moderate those, movie fans would moderate the 'movie fora,' et cetera.

The RP fora are in the process of moving to the new site, as well as a few of the RP guilds. Now before some of you start to complain, that's the way it was, so deal with it. ;)

How to choose. Due to the fact that any single moderator is functionally capable of doing a great deal of damage to the site, I will always have the final say in who will, or will not be a moderator. That being said, I would like to open the process up a bit. It's been pointed out that a simple election would be nothing more than a popularity contest, and popularity, in and of its self, is not a measure for who would make a good moderator. Its tough. Its not all pomp and parade being a TTF moderator. We average anywhere around 500 to 1,000 posts per day, divided into some 50 fora. We also have somewhere around 1,000 to 1,500 relatively active members. It's no easy task keeping all this in line. I really think that most members don't have a clue as to just how hard the Guild of Moderators work.

With all that being said, what I can do is this.

Any member, who would truly like to help keep TTF running smooth by joining the Guild of Moderators, to send me a private message, detailing which fora they would like to 'moderate,' and perhaps a short sentence or two telling me why? After I have a decent list of candidates, I will personally check to see how each candidate has interacted on the site, and discuss their standing with the other moderators, as well as the C9. Candidates who survive this process, could then be the subject of a poll. A little drawn out, but this may be the best approach.

We can fine tune the selection process a bit. Maybe we won't need to bother the C9 with it after all. In the mean time, members wishing to be a Moderator, please let me know using the guidelines above.

[Ancalagon]

Sounds like rather a cunning yet fantastic plan David, and by jove it might just work!

[Lantarion]

I have seen this on many other (non-Tolkien) fora; next to each Section there is a space, which reads "Moderated by:" and the names of the Mods there.
It seems like a very good idea; that way due concentration can be given to each specific forum. But I would have to see it in action before actually dubbing it a 'Good' or 'Bad' idea.

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Sounds like rather a cunning yet fantastic plan David, and by jove it might just work!

Yes Baldric. A plan so cunning you can brush your teeth with it

YES! I finally found a use for my favorite Blackadder quote

RD

[Ancalagon]

My personal favourite was; I'm afraid not. Unfortunately, most of the infantry think you're a prat. Ask them who they'd prefer to meet: Squadron Commander Flasheart or the man who cleans out the public toilets in Aberdeen, and they'd go for Wee Jock
"Poo-Pong" McPlop, every time.

In saying that, it is good to see that the democratic process will prevail, to a point;)

[Walter]

You know what...I didn't think I'd live to see that happen: A C9 alive and kicking, members getting some saying here and now we're pondering to have moderators - more or less - democratically chosen...

I think I'll go and faint some! ;)


...but then, what shall I have to complain about in the future, when all my wishes are going to come true... :D

[dapence]

Well, then, that's what we're going to do.

I've already had a couple members offer their services, and hope to see more.

Remember to tell me which areas of the site you would like to moderate.

[BlackCaptain]

Do we do this through private message? If we don't I'd really like the Bag End or General Discusions section. I hang out in there ALOT nowadays...


But I know it's not my decision, I can only hope for the best!

[BlackCaptain]

Ohhh wait a tick... I think I've just realised you already HAVE to be a moderator... HAha my bad

[Idril]

No BlackCaptain - you volunteer yourself, via PM to WM to become a mod - say abit about yourself and which fora you're interested in - then he'll go through the applicants and discuss it with others and maybe get a vote from the members.

[Lantarion]

But the truly excellent Mods are hand-picked by the WM.. Like glorious, wonderful, perfect ME! :D ;)
In case you're wondering, I'm j/k. :)
OMG, I totally cracked up at those Black Adder quotes.. I have to watch them over on tape..! :D

[Wonko The Sane]

To paraphrase Robert Heinlein, it is those who wish to rule that are the least qualified to do so, and those who have no desire to rule that will make the best leaders.

Or something to that effect. I'd quote it directly as I have the whole thing bookmarked but my illustrious book collection is imprisioned somewhere deep in the cracks of Mt. Doom. Otherwise known as my mum's house.


ANYway, I don't know if people suggesting themselves for mod positions is necessarily a good idea. As people tend to want to do things for the wrong reasons.

I suppose, however, that it's not practical to ask that people nominate those other than themselves, and put forth the names of people they think would make good mods and the reasons wherefore.

But to me it just seems preferable. I don't think people really appreciate or understand how much work is involved and how hard it actually is to be a mod. They may nominate themselves, not realising what they're getting themselves into, because they want the recognition, and the "power" and they think it would be "fun" and "cool." However, if we have people nominating other people and giving legitimate reasons this is eliminated in a way.
People aren't just asking to be a mod because they want to be one. People who are actually qualified get nominated.

However, this may lead to problems with popularity contests. Though if there is no actual race or election I think we could avoid this almost entirely.
It also might cause some poeple to begin to "campaign." ie- Hey, would you put in a good word to WM about why you'd think I'd make a good mod.
But that too can be avoided.

I just have to refer to the quote I paraphrased above...

Really...the people who nominate themselves probably aren't going to be the ones who would do the best job.

In MY opinion if somebody wants to be a mod they should strive to acheive "modly" qualities, they should try to behave as they think mods should behave. They should mature, and take a greater interest in the forum in general, etc. etc. etc. I think you understand what I mean.

I can't stop people from wanting to mod. But as I said the ones that offer there names may not be the best qualified. Instead they should strive to be noticed as mod-material by their peers, and perhaps the C9. It's actually far more admirable to display the qualities necessary, either by nature or by changing one's nature if being a mod is one's goal, rather than just promoting oneself to WM via PM.

I dunno...I may be way off base here. What do you think?

[Nóm]

Well that is true in some cases and maybe more than not, Wonko... but not always.

I didn't think I'd make a good mod (unhappy with many things, and affraid of messing up), while a lot of others did... and behold: Just look at how it turned out! I didn't want the "power" or "leadership" of it... in truth I did in great part out of fear that someone worse than me would be picked for the job.

I think people know better than others how well they might do at this job.

[Lantarion]

I think you're basically correct, Wonko.. And thanks for the catchy quote! :D
But then again, eagerness is also a very valid qualification for the position of Moderator, and asking to be one certainly shows this.
And as it is ultimately up to the WM who actually becomes a Mod, it really doesn't make any difference whether a member actually 'campaigns' to become one. If he or she is qualified for the job, and if there are open Moderator positions, I don't see why that person should not be a Mod. But the criteria are very severe, as they should be, and a decent amount of experience at TTF is required.

Nóm I thought you were one of the greatest Moderators we've ever had.. Your dedication and care for the whole of TTF is exactly what I, for one, have not bene showing enough of. And to say that you did not do any valuable acts as a Mod is incorrect.. I was goggling at the enormous list of Moved/Merged threads that you processed just yesterday, and it made me the more sad to see you go.
And let m tell you, there are plenty of poeple who would have done a far, far worse job in the short period of time that you were a Mod.

[Walter]

Another suggestion:

What if the C9 and the GM compile each a list of people they think to be qualified for this task. In a next step these people could be asked whether they would want to be moderators or not (in case they have not yet done so already via PM to WM). As a next step a voting could be set up (like the C9 voting) and finally the WM would have to give his final approval of those people...

Of course every single step of this process could be ommited, except for the last one, the approval of WM, but it just wouldn't feel the same...

[Idril]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
ANYway, I don't know if people suggesting themselves for mod positions is necessarily a good idea. As people tend to want to do things for the wrong reasons.
Well you just managed to wipe out the entire worldwide volunteer corps in one fell swoop:) Not to mention all the employees around the world - since they needed to 'apply' for the post in the first instance.

I don't think people really appreciate or understand how much work is involved and how hard it actually is to be a mod. They may nominate themselves, not realising what they're getting themselves into, because they want the recognition, and the "power" and they think it would be "fun" and "cool." In light of recent events in the forum, I don't see how any member can fail to see how 'involved' and 'hard' the job is.
You also do a great dis-service to the integrity of those members who have already volunteered themselves.

I just have to refer to the quote I paraphrased above...
Really...the people who nominate themselves probably aren't going to be the ones who would do the best job.
I find this presumption, which you are directing towards those members who have put themselves forward as extremely insulting and demeaning.

In MY opinion if somebody wants to be a mod they should strive to acheive "modly" qualities, they should try to behave as they think mods should behave. They should mature, and take a greater interest in the forum in general, etc. etc. etc. I think you understand what I mean.
You are again, assuming these members are not mature or take an interest in the forum and do not have 'modly' qualities.

I can't stop people from wanting to mod. But as I said the ones that offer there names may not be the best qualified. Instead they should strive to be noticed as mod-material by their peers, and perhaps the C9. It's actually far more admirable to display the qualities necessary, either by nature or by changing one's nature if being a mod is one's goal, rather than just promoting oneself to WM via PM.
The WM has made a decision and has asked for willing volunteers - please remember this. He has said he will vet each member for suitability and I am certain if he finds anyone not 'best qualified' or does not have 'mod' material', that person will not proceed to the next stage - whatever that maybe.

Generalisation is a dangerous thing - I would not presume because murderer 'A' is black, all blacks are probably murderers - a harsh example but it shows my point.

I appreciate this is your opinion, but I actually find it offensive in light that the WM has already stated some members have come forward and he wanted more possible volunteers.

Perhaps if the WM allows members to also nominate candidates this may resolve this issue, but remember the final decisions rests with the WM.

[Elendil3119]

Very good post, Idril, and I agree completely. There ARE some of us who are NOT after "power", but really care about the good of this forum and want to help. WM asked for people to step forward, and I don't think there is any more to be said.

[Wolfshead]

Originally posted by Rangerdave
Yes Baldric. A plan so cunning you can brush your teeth with it

YES! I finally found a use for my favorite Blackadder quote
But the big question, RD, is whether or not the plan is as "cunning as a fox who's just been appointed professor of cunning at Oxford University?". As said by the infamous Captain Blackadder before going "over the top" in the final episode :D

And Baldrick has a 'k' on the end :p

Now, to get on subject... I think WM's plan is the best suggested. It's true that some people will nominate themselves because they want the power and status, but I think we can trust WM and the C9 to decipher these individuals from the ones who truly want to help the forum. Enough said, I think.

[Walter]

I can very much relate to Wonks post above, I too feel, that quite a few members who will gladly volunteer for such a "job" are having an eye at the "reputation" and "power" of a moderator status, rather than the "responsibility" and the "future of TTF".

Of course I can understand that - especially younger and youngest members, as we have recently seen - seem rather keen to become a moderator and being able to play "police-officers" of some sorts...

I have always been for some age-balance among the moderators and with the recently opened gap in the GM (Ancalagon, Gothmog, Grond, Turgon), I feel that a few more moderators in their age range (30+), who know TTF well and have some visions for its future development, would suit our forum well at this point...

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Walter

I have always been for some age-balance among the moderators and with the recently opened gap in the GM (Ancalagon, Gothmog, Grond, Turgon), I feel that a few more moderators in their age range (30+), who know TTF well and have some visions for its future development, would suit our forum well at this point...



So what you are saying is that old age and treachery will overcome youth and enthusiasm.
Stand tall my fellow Greybeards.

But I see nothing wrong with having a moderator corps that reflects the median age of the membership. Provided they are of good determined, intelligent and free of moral turpitude

RD

[Walter]

Originally posted by Rangerdave
So what you are saying is that old age and treachery will overcome youth and enthusiasm.
Stand tall my fellow Greybeards.I don't quite seem to understand, do you implicitly equal old age with a tendency to treachery? Or is there a certain issue you are trying to address here? If so, since I'm a simple mind, I would appreciate a less veiled hint, so that I'm able to understand what you are trying to say here. As much as I appreciate youth and enthusiasm, as much do I believe that an advanced age has also some merits.

What I am thinking is: If this forum aims at the "advanced age groups" as well as at the teens and twens, those age groups should - IMO - be also represented in the composition of the Guild of Moderators. Or else the young ones will flock, but the "older ones" might feel less attracted. And an outstanding quality of a BBS like TTF would - again IMO - only be possible when the age of the members is as widely spread as possible. I wonder if you have noticed, Rangerdave, that even among the 30+ members are some enthusiastic and valuable "on-topic" posters...

[YayGollum]

Am I the only one that doesn't actively seek out the ages of everyone over here? I had all kinds of crazy half thought up ideas of people's ages over here. It wasn't a huge deal to me. You know. The same old ---> There are plenty of achingly mature type kidses just like there are plenty of achingly immature adults. oh well. It sounded like the scary webmaster person already decided on the answer to this question. *hides*

[Aerin]

I think it is very true that most of the members of TTF do not understand the responsibility and seriousness of the position of moderator. On the same note, I will say that there definitely are many mature enough to handle the job.

However, I am not sure about recommending one's self to become a moderator. Perhaps it is due to shyness, but I would not want to make my case to WM, because I am not very good at complimenting myself or saying things that make me look better than everyone else. I realize, in today's society (in America, at least), that trumpeting your achievements is not only praised, but it becomes necessary, sometimes, in the work world. That I cannot understand. Why would someone believe what you say about yourself rather than look at your history and actions? Personally, if I were chosen for a job, I would rather it be for my abilities, and not for how well I can make myself look good. :rolleyes:

Then again, if that is the way WM has chosen to choose the new moderators, then more power to those who have the confidence to put themselves up front. :)

[Rangerdave]

Ok Walter.
Here's the scoop

The old age and treachery line is what I tell my students when they jokingly present a challange to my authority. I only put it her to lighten up the mood a bit.

But the after bit about the not considering age for staff is serious.
I think that age, like gender, nationality or creed, should be a non issue. And as such, age should not be a factor in considering a canidate.

Using any demographic factor for basing a appointment reeks of a quota based system. Something I am very adamantly against.

Any decision should be based on an indivuals metits and abilities. A moderator should be choosen by who he/she is, not what he/she is.


RD

[Walter]

Originally posted by Rangerdave
Ok Walter.
Here's the scoop

The old age and treachery line is what I tell my students when they jokingly present a challange to my authority. I only put it her to lighten up the mood a bit.

But the after bit about the not considering age for staff is serious.
I think that age, like gender, nationality or creed, should be a non issue. And as such, age should not be a factor in considering a canidate.

Using any demographic factor for basing a appointment reeks of a quota based system. Something I am very adamantly against.

Any decision should be based on an indivuals metits and abilities. A moderator should be choosen by who he/she is, not what he/she is.


RD Let me see if I get that right...

Let's say you are reading posts of a member that are full of typing errors and misspellings. To you it makes no difference whether this posts are made by - let's say - a 40 y.o. teacher, with English as his first language, or a 15 y.o. student who has English as second or maybe third language? Well to me it does, I tend to think the teacher could/should do better than this, the student will probably improve his writing abilities sooner or later...

Anotherone: Let's assume a debate gets out of hand and develops into an argument and one of the "opponents" has a tantrum and starts to - verbally - attack the oher and do some name-calling in the event. To you it makes no difference if this is done by a teenager or a grown-up? You - as moderator - would deal the same way with both?

This makes me wonder why in many cultures the laws are different for people "of age" than for children and teenager? Or why in some cultures there was a counsil of the old? Or why Tolkien chose his Istari as old men rather than boys?

I am sorry, RD, I do not agree with you on that issue, plus this statement of yours makes me wonder if you have already forgotten your own words or if they were just another joke:

Originally posted by Rangerdave
I may be a decade younger than Grond, but I would think I classify as an old **** on this forum. So let me make a smart-alec comment here.

Age does not necessarily bring wisdom, but it does bring experience.

So we Oldies may not be wise but were devious and crafty.
(insert scary laughter here)

RD Or have you changed your mind and you are telling us now, that some life experience does not count? Not at all or just not for a moderator?

---

Edit: My point is that TTF's development - IMO - will be more prosperous if there is some balance between younger and older members and that the GoM should represent that somehow.

RD: Maybe ignore the question marks in my post, or consider the questions just as rhetorical ones, I think it might be better if we don't delve any deeper, let's just agree to disagree on that issue...

[Robin]

I just want to bring something up when there is a discussion about if members should have any influence at all. Húrin Thalion is still banned without recieving no official notification of why, does this look like fair to you? He spoke to one moderator that I will leave unnamed who said that he should apologize for the mess and all that. I ask you, what mess ahs he caused except demanding an apology for an insult and then leaving the forum because Beorn kept talking **** about him? What followed due to all this was because the actions of the moderators and WM, not because of Húrin's actions. He said he has e-mailed Webmaster about it but that "He has not had the politeness to answer me at all." Is this justice?

And BTW Wonko, Plato had the same idea as Heinlein but not as developed, if I am not mistaken. CS Lewis used that in his books about Narnia too.

[Idril]

C9 has been set up to deal with such situations you described, and hopefully we can avoid the unfortunate fallout this matter created, and it doesn't matter who was at fault. A lot of damage has been done at TTF because of that conflict, we are recovering and changes/improvements have taken place and still are, and will continue to do so as long as the forum exist (I hope;)). I don't see how dragging this particular situation to the fore here, helps this discussion. I thought we had move on (not forgotten)and passed this.

[Robin]

Maybe you have. But may I remind you that this is exactly what can hapen when the "wrong" people become moderators. And since Húrin is still banned and Webmaster refuses to answer him which is by the way, very impolite and cowardous, this forum ahs not moved on.

[Walter]

Welcome to our Tolkien-forum, Robin.

It appears that of the 9 posts you have made within the 5 months of your presence here, not a single one is Tolkien-related and 4 are bringing up the HT issue once again.

If you feel you have something Tolkien-related to contribute here, then I suggest you browse the fora and participate in the proper threads. You will be very welcome.

If all you intend to do here is stir up more trouble about the HT issue and discuss politics and religion and eventually start making offensive or insulting remarks, this forum might not be the right place for you, because we - the members - will not believe that your interest in Tolkien has brought you here...

[Idril]

Robin, I don't think this is the place to be insulting the WM - take it to him personnally. Moderators (as I see it anyway) aren't there to be your friends - it's like being a parent - sometimes you have fun and it all runs smoothly and then other times, the 'authority' part needs to step in. Everyone makes mistakes - we are all human - it's an inherrent fault in us . As I stated before C9 will hopefully provide a balance in the event of a conflict and the situation can be sorted to the satisfaction of both parties. It might be wise to leave this here, as I said - you have a problem take it to the WM or to C9, that's what they are there for.

[Robin]

Then tell me who have I insulted? I have quoted a friend of mine who thinks that he has been treated unjustly. And as for Tolkien knowlege, you speak of what you know nothing Walter. I just want an answer and since this seemed like a thread where you could discuss member's rights, I chose this one.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Robin
Then tell me who have I insulted? I have quoted a friend of mine who thinks that he has been treated unjustly. And as for Tolkien knowlege, you speak of what you know nothing Walter. I just want an answer and since this seemed like a thread where you could discuss member's rights, I chose this one. Well, if accusing someone of "cowardous" behavior isn't an insult...

I do not know how much you do or do not know about Tolkien, Robin, you haven't made any Tolkien-related statements in this incarnation (and I haven't read the contributions of what I think was your former "incarnation" on this forum carefully enough) so I cannot judge, neither did I so, in my former post...

[Beorn]

Robin: I can't answer you this instant, but I will later on in the day. For now, this thread is closed. I would think that you would learn from HT's example: don't make everything public.

I'll reopen it sometime later on today.

[dapence]

Okay, Robin, here's an official notification for you to copy and send your friend.

Húrin Thalion was banned because of two reasons.

1. He refused to drop the issue dealing with Ciryaher, after a promise to do so, which had alleviated a previous ban.

2. He gave every indication that he would continue to press his luck, and stir up as much trouble as possible, until Ciryaher is removed.

I strongly suspect Húrin Thalion to be an angry young man, and seeks to vent this anger at any venue made available to him. TTF is not a sounding board for such people. If Húrin Thalion ever wishes to be a member of this site again, I'd suggest he place his life into better focus, and convince me that he no longer has any deleterious intentions towards this site.

As to you, the situation with Ciryaher is closed, and no longer subject to review. I invite you to explore the site, and see if you would like to continue to be a contributing member. If not, if your only purpose here is to sling insults and baseless accusations, then I suggest you find another site to do so.