Why did the Valar grieve so much about the Trees?

[Lhunithiliel]

This question came up into a discussion on Chapter 8 of the Silmarillion.

Really...!

Think of it - the Valar came from darkness, lived in darknes, the most part of the world lived in darkness even when the Trees existed, the Elves woke up in darkness and long lived in it and never stopped to love or fear it...

Yet the light of the Trees was so immensly cherished and when they were destroyed - such a grief and misfortune!

Besides, as one of the participants in the above mantioned Silmarillion discussion noted, why would a spiritual - hence non-material creature (a Vala or Maia) need light?

Well, what do you think of all that?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

Think of it - the Valar came from darkness, lived in darknes, the most part of the world lived in darkness even when the Trees existed, the Elves woke up in darkness and long lived in it and never stopped to love or fear it...

Yet the light of the Trees was so immensly cherished and when they were destroyed - such a grief and misfortune!



Perhaps they found out that living in light was even more enjoyable and blissful than living in darkness? That would explain why they grieved at the loss of it.;)

[Lhunithiliel]

It may be so... Yet was the light meant for them?
Or was it meant to be created for the race of Men according to those "secret" plans of Eru?

[Nóm]

I think Aman came to be the Valar's doorway into the physical world. That is where they would sometimes take shape and enjoy the bodily form. The light was unmarred and had a power to heal the hurts of Morgoth and it sort of slowed down time. This did effect the spirit type beings that the Valar are.

To ask why the light effected them we may as well ask why Melkor desired light in the beginning?

I think that light is a closeness with Iluvatar, being in the light of the trees might have been like having him near. Holiness, at least.

I doubt it was the fact that Valinor was dark, so much as the lack of the holy light.

Also, the in the writings about the new Sun and Moon idea the Valar shut out the light of the Sun from their realm because it was stained by Melkor.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Nóm
To ask why the light effected them we may as well ask why Melkor desired light in the beginning?

I think that light is a closeness with Iluvatar, being in the light of the trees might have been like having him near. Holiness, at least.

Mhm.. This is an interesting thought! :rolleyes:

[Feanorian]

Well they were also beautiful things, some of the most creative works in the world really. Without them Feanor could never have created the Silmarils because they were filled with the light of the trees. They were the works of Yvanna, she really poured her heart into the trees and the Valar loved and respected both her and her creations. The trees were so pure they represent everything that was good in Valinor.

[Celebthôl]

exaclty what Feanorian wrote, they were the biggest work of any Valar ever and they were loved accordingly, so when they were destroyed it was a terrible blow to them physcologically i feel...

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
exaclty what Feanorian wrote, they were the biggest work of any Valar ever and they were loved accordingly, so when they were destroyed it was a terrible blow to them physcologically i feel...
I agree with this,but... I however still think that the greatest work of the Valar (ex-Ainur) was the creation of Arda.

[Celebthôl]

Well there is no denying that, for without Arda there would be nothing else. So lets say the trees, were their best consious (sp) creation (as they were not aware that they had created Arda until Ilúvatar showed them after their great song).

[Lhunithiliel]

There is a point in what you're saying ..
Still... I am trying to understand the reason.
Why were the trees created? I feel there must have been some very important reason... so great, that their destruction brought even the mighty Gods to a state of despair!

Opinions? :rolleyes: :D

[Celebthôl]

oh i see where you headed, thats a good point, (sorry takes me a while to catch up with stuff ;)) anywho, well nothing can see in total darkness so maybe (just a thought) they were created for Men, as Men have worse eye sight (for the most part) than Elves so they may possibly have been created in advance for the waking ok Men...(this is very preliminary)

[Eriol]

Light is considered a good thing in itself in most religious traditions (in fact, all that I know of). Why? Well, because it shines, enligthens, illuminates :D...

Seriously, though, see how the verbs associated with it have a good feeling around them. Light allows us to enjoy and appreciate the works of God.

The same happens in M-E with Ilúvatar. Light made Arda more enjoyable for the Valar since they could better appreciate its wonder with light.

Back to M-E. Light was especially important for Yavanna's creatures. The Spring of Aman was not extended to M-E, it happened only where the light of the trees reached. Light was a 'motor' behind life, both the light of the trees, the earlier light of the lamps and, today, the light of the sun. And the Valar really enjoyed Yavanna's creatures. I think there were no flowers outside of Aman before the Sun (except in Beleriand due to Melian's power...)

I think that the fact that they are spiritual beings has no bearing on how they enjoy matter. It is clear, to me, that they enjoyed Aman in its heyday, and one of the reasons was the light. The objection that light is material and, therefore, 'beneath' them as spiritual creatures, is open to question. Also, light as a material thing is not the 'default opinion' of myths, they always treat light as something spiritual -- perhaps it is material too, but it is mainly spiritual. Einstein would shock the Valar ;).

As to why they despaired over the death fo the Trees, it is just that they knew well enough that Yavanna and Nienna would not be able to create new trees. It was a deep grief that things so beautiful and important were destroyed, for ever, by Melkor's malice... I think they were grieving for Arda Marred, not because of the death of the Trees particularly. They could always produce light in some other way, as they did with the lamps.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Eriol
Light is considered a good thing in itself in most religious traditions (in fact, all that I know of). Why? Well, because it shines, enligthens, illuminates :D...
A! But... isn't it just a pattern that our human minds follow? ;)
Ask Melkor about the beauty of the Void and Darkness!
Though... as Nom has poined out, even he did what he did for the lust of having light!...
Or was it that as Illuvatar only had it and together with it - he had the ultimate power, that Melkor wanted the light so badly?
Was it the light or the power that he sought for?
For...if light brings the good out in every creature... then it all contradicts... Melkor was created evil! Evil and Dark! In contrast with Eru - light and power.... Why would then Melkor seek for light, if light is meant to bring good?

Am I making sense? :rolleyes:

Seriously, though, see how the verbs associated with it have a good feeling around them. Light allows us to enjoy and appreciate the works of God.

The same happens in M-E with Ilúvatar. Light made Arda more enjoyable for the Valar since they could better appreciate its wonder with light.
Close to Nom's theory... I like it... It sounds ...reasonable IF there is a firm reason and logic in mythological worlds :rolleyes:

Back to M-E. Light was especially important for Yavanna's creatures. The Spring of Aman was not extended to M-E, it happened only where the light of the trees reached. Light was a 'motor' behind life, both the light of the trees, the earlier light of the lamps and, today, the light of the sun. And the Valar really enjoyed Yavanna's creatures. I think there were no flowers outside of Aman before the Sun (except in Beleriand due to Melian's power...)
Which leads to a question... if the Valar wished to implement Eru's grand design... why did they always stop being "active" the moment their own surroundings got well enough convenient for them?
I mean... they had the light (the lamps, the trees)... OK! They had Valinor... Ok... but for them! The Elves woke up in the wild of the darkness of Middle-earth... Why hadn't the Valar care about spreading the light earlier, so that the Firstborn could wake up in a place full of beauty and splendour like the one the Gods live in?

Why? ...Why?... Because...then I suppose the whole story would have been different... :p

Yet, why do I feel as if there is sth. behind those two trees? Valar's grief is only a result of the loss of sth. extremely important... Was it after all so very much important for them only?

[Eriol]

Evil wants good things. It wants beauty. In fact, the 'desirability' of things is a measure of how good they are. Melkor was not like Ungoliant, who wanted to devour the world -- he just wanted to have it for himself, to dominate it, so that his will would be the only one really acting. He hated interference, but not creation itself.

(Ungoliant also wanted a good thing -- pleasure out of devouring things. Pleasure is good.)

It is impossible to want a totally evil thing, most especially because there is no such thing. Melkor was most definitely not created Evil. He is not the enemy of Eru, he is the enemy of Manwë. Sure he hates Eru, but he knows better than trying to compare himself with Eru -- though he does that, lying (and aware that he is lying), to men. His motive is always domination and power, but he wants to dominate other things -- good things. (Note that he -- later on -- shuns light, hating the Sun, staying underground, etc. Light had lost its 'illuminating' characteristic, as Morgoth -- no longer Melkor -- embraced more and more nihilism. But his nihilism was still a craving for absolute domination, not a self-destructing wish).

In that connection I found a very interesting quote of Milton's recently:

Fall’n Cherube, to be weak is miserable
Doing or Suffering:but of this be sure,
To do ought good never will be our task,
But ever to do ill our sole delight,
As being the contrary to his high will
Whom we resist. If then his Providence
Out of our evil seek to bring forth good,
Our labour must be to pervert that end,
And out of good still to find means of evil.

I don't know if it supports my argument or not, I just liked it ;).

As for the 'timing' of the Valar's actions, they were really following the script, as it were -- according to the Song. They knew that the Elves should appear under the stars. They only refrained from open battle against Melkor, fencing themselves in Valinor, because they feared the effects of a second battle (the first one, over the lamps, had been very destuctive).

Sure, if they knew what Old Nibs (:D) would do to mankind in the meantime they would probably think twice about leaving him loose. But the Valar never gave much thought to men, men were always a bit alien to them.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Eriol
Evil wants good things. It wants beauty. In fact, the 'desirability' of things is a measure of how good they are. Melkor was not like Ungoliant, who wanted to devour the world -- he just wanted to have it for himself, to dominate it, so that his will would be the only one really acting. He hated interference, but not creation itself.
So it is all about power after all! "Good" can be observed in many things and I suppose light is just one of "good"'s "faces"! Therefore, it comes right to say that it's not beauty or good that Melkor or/and Ungoliant wanted. Melkor wanted to destroy in order to show his might and will to dominate; Ungoliant - just out of greediness (is there such a word? :D)
So, there we have it >>>> the ever-present confrontation between "good" vs."bad", "perfection" vs. "uglibness"; "creativity" vs. "destructability"...

And if one is to seek for some "hidden" phylosophy in the act of the destruction of the tress, at leas I find it here - it is to show how fragile beauty is when and if not well guarded (beauty in any sense; and I think Tolkien had in mind beauty and good mostly in their spiritual values)

It is impossible to want a totally evil thing, most especially because there is no such thing.
Oh! There it comes again - the eternal qustion of "good" and "bad" - the two inseparable sides of life itself....I guess....

Melkor was most definitely not created Evil. He is not the enemy of Eru, he is the enemy of Manwë.
Here I stand corrected! :o

Sure he hates Eru, but he knows better than trying to compare himself with Eru -- though he does that, lying (and aware that he is lying), to men. His motive is always domination and power, but he wants to dominate other things -- good things. (Note that he -- later on -- shuns light, hating the Sun, staying underground, etc. Light had lost its 'illuminating' characteristic, as Morgoth -- no longer Melkor -- embraced more and more nihilism. But his nihilism was still a craving for absolute domination, not a self-destructing wish).
Another bit of phylosophy, I guess, revealed masterfully by Tolkien! Nihillism is the path to soul-destruction.

In that connection I found a very interesting quote of Milton's recently:

I don't know if it supports my argument or not, I just liked it ;).
And you have full right to like it! It is beautiful and makes one think ...

As for the 'timing' of the Valar's actions, they were really following the script, as it were -- according to the Song. They knew that the Elves should appear under the stars. They only refrained from open battle against Melkor, fencing themselves in Valinor, because they feared the effects of a second battle (the first one, over the lamps, had been very destuctive).

Sure, if they knew what Old Nibs (:D) would do to mankind in the meantime they would probably think twice about leaving him loose. But the Valar never gave much thought to men, men were always a bit alien to them.
As for this, I still hold reproach against the Gods! And I am trying to understand ... I guess it has to do with some cannons of the Christian religion... but I, though being an Orthodox Christian, don't know much about it....

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

As for this, I still hold reproach against the Gods! And I am trying to understand ... I guess it has to do with some cannons of the Christian religion... but I, though being an Orthodox Christian, don't know much about it....

I guess one of the major lessons of Tolkien in his work is that the Valar are imperfect. They may make mistakes, and in fact they do it all the time. They are the Powers of The World, not of Free Peoples... otherwise people would not be free.

I think the only friendly Valar (friendly to free people, I mean) were Ulmo and Oromë. Come to think of it, if that silly Manwë always followed Ulmo it would have been much easier!

... and who said easy is best? ;)

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
So it is all about power after all! "Good" can be observed in many things and I suppose light is just one of "good"'s "faces"!

I thought I'd do a little "bumping" of my own...

:D

Lhun, I don't get what you mean here. (reread the thread to "get back into the swing...). "Good" = "Power"? Power, to me, is Power to do something -- it is in a completely different category than "Good", or "Beautiful".

Can you define "Power"?

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, you seem to have been very well bored to dig up some of the old "bones" of these boards ;) :D

Lo, ( ;) )
I too reread the thread.... Well what I meant by "good" = "power" was referring to Melkor's motives only! Not in general! I would not say that "good" is "power" in general understanding! It's in the case of Melkor that wanting the Flame Imperishable = light and good in itself, he in fact wanted power.

I do agree with you that "good" is "beauty".

As for the specific topic of the thread... I am rereading BOLT 1 and there it came again - after the destruction of the two lamps, the Valar started to build their dwellings but as Aule wanted light for his grand construction sites ( ;) ) he asked for it and ... well we know the story, as it is in this early conception about the trees...

I feel as if Tolkien himself at one point decided that to introduce the trees - one of the greatest creations in Arda - for the simple reason to have just two new sources of light, was not very much correct.... so he changed it later.... :rolleyes:

Now, when I think about the topic of this thread, and having read a bit more after the time I opened it.... I find it now silly! :o
I'd better have it deleted!