Of The Flight of The Noldor (Chapter discussion)

[Nóm]

Then Manwe spoke and said:'Hearest thou, Feanor son of Finwe, the word of Yavanna? Wilt thou grant what she would ask?'
There was long silence, but Feanor answred no word. Then Tulkas cried:'Speak O Noldo, yea or nay! But who shall deny Yavanaa? And did not the light of the Silmarils come from her work in the beginning?'
But Aule the Maker said: ; Be no hasty! We ask a greater thing than thou knowest. Let him have peace yet awhile.'

What do you suppose was going through Feanor's mind right then?
Might he have been angry, and recalling the words of Morgoth?

Might he have been considering unlocking the silmarils, but decided not to because the apparant impatience of the Valar might have sounded over greedy to Feanor?



... for Finwe alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

Was this just because Finwe was couragious and would not be frightened away from his own home? Or was there more to it... was he protecting the Silmarils?


...all one it may seem wheher Feanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were.

Well how might they have been? And why?

And thus the fear of Yavanna that the Silmarils would be swallowed and fall into nothingness did not come to pass...
Why'd she fear that?

But when we have conquered and have regained the Silmarils, then we and we alone shall be lords of the unsullied Light, and the masters of the bliss and beauty of Arda. No other race shall oust us!

Did Feanor have anything in mind for men? How do you suppose Feanor and his people would have ruled if they could have defeated Morgoth? Would Feanor have become a dark lord? Might it have been best that Feanor did not defeat Morgoth?


...by no means all were of a mind to take Feanor as King. greater love was given to Fingolfin and his sons, and his household and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him, if he would go with them...

How is that Feanor had such power with words to sway the Noldor into folly of haste, and even to sway them against the counsel of the one they would take as their leader, and yet not sway them to take him as King?

Isn't it rotten of the people of Tirion to refuse to renounce Fingolfin only if he would go with them?
"I will follow, only if you will do what I want"?

Didn't they love him and want him as their king? Then why would they renounce him if he would do what his wisdom told him was right?

Were the Teleri right to refuse aid? What do you think of the fact they would not go into Middle-earth and fight beside their kin that they loved?

I think Fingon was very influencial in the whole mess. Had he spoke against Feanor as did his father, and his brother then Fingolfin would have had one less reason to go along with Feanor.

Fingolfin went because Fingon urged him, because of his earlier words to Feanor, and because he did not want to foresake his people, leaving them to the rash counsel of Feanor... even though they would have foresaken him!

Which of these reasons do you think was the biggest for Fingolfin?


Should Maedhros have tried to talk some sense into his father about the abandoning of Fingolfin's people?

I will bring up The Shibboleth of Feanor later, it is in Peoples of Middle-earth.

[Celebthôl]

K this is a lot lets start

1) My guess would be that Feanor was thinking, "No!" and "Why should I?!" as they were the greatest works of anything (save maybe the trees), and that as he said later it would kill him if they were unmade, (though i dont see what would stop him from making them again),

2) I think his stand was due to both coragiousness and his love for the Silmarils maybe he knew how his son would react if the Silmarils were taken,

3) Well if Feanor was on a different mind altogether then he would not have attempted to regain the Silmarils by force and he would have doomed much of the Noldor and Teleri, this brongs rise to the question, if Feanor didnt charge into ME to regain the Silmarils would the Valar have done? and this in turn would have stopped much of the horrors of Morgoth and Sauron and peace would have been swifter! (just something to think on),

4) I guess she feared because the light in the Silmarils was the last light left on Arda from the great trees, and with them again she could rebuild the trees when all the world was unmade at the very end,

5) I dont think Feanor know of Men, only the Valar and Maia and Eru did as far as i can remember, and maybe he had a thought to dominate them aswell (if he DID know of them)

6) im not to sure how to answer the last bit...

[Nóm]

Did Yavanna know that the light of the Trees had been swallowed and was lost forever?

If so, did she know about Ungoliant, and how? Manwe can see a darkness beynd dark, but there is no mention that the Valar knew Ungoliant, one who could swallow light forever, was there.

If there was a chance of the silmarils being swallowed forever, and there must have been in Yavanna's mind, since she feared it; why didn't everyone get up and search until they were found?

Why risk such a big thing, by taking counsel and mourning first?

[Theoden_king]

Originally posted by Nóm
Well how might they have been? And why?


I think that if Feanor had agreed to give up the silmarils, even tought they were taken, the Valar might have helped Feanor wage a war on Morgoth to reclaim the silmarils, after all if he was willing to give up his greatest work to them why should they not help get them back?

Originally posted by Nóm
Did Feanor have anything in mind for men? How do you suppose Feanor and his people would have ruled if they could have defeated Morgoth? Would Feanor have become a dark lord? Might it have been best that Feanor did not defeat Morgoth?


I don't think that Feanor would have been pleased at the coming of men, he seems very selfish and we know he doesn't fear fighting against anyone (or anything) so I think he would have lied to men and turned them against the Valar

[Nóm]

...it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were.
When Feanor denied the silmarils to the Valar... and Valinor in general, he placed himself on his own team against them.
If Feanor had gave up the silmarils, I think he might have viewed the theft as Melkor taking from the Valar too, instead of just from himself and his followers. He may have been more inclined to trust the Valar and listen to their counsel.

It could also be that the Valar would have taken more action against Morgoth, and if this is the case I do not understand it. If they would have hunted Morgoth down to regain them, this just goes to show that they would have been doing so for more selfish reasons. Feanor denying the silmarils might have been an error that bad things came of, but why punish the Noldor for his mistake? It stinks to me, if they would have fought for their own jewels, but not for those of the Noldor who they allegedly loved.

I'd rather think that Feanor would have behaved differently. If it is the Valar who would have, how can we see that as being a good thing?

[Theoden_king]

Originally posted by Nóm
It could also be that the Valar would have taken more action against Morgoth, and if this is the case I do not understand it. If they would have hunted Morgoth down to regain them, this just goes to show that they would have been doing so for more selfish reasons.

No I have to disagree with this statement,the Valar wanted the silmarils to heal the trees which elves loved also, therefore I don't see this as a selfish action at all.

[soltan gris]

The trees are the symbol of Valinor, which is the symbol of Paradise. Anything is justifiable when you try to safe the paradise - even to sacrifice your greatest work. I think that's what Feanor was thinking in the beginning. Finally, he loved the trees too. Now, WAS he really going to give up the Silmarils is another question.

[Grond]

What do you suppose was going through Feanor's mind right then? Might he have been angry, and recalling the words of Morgoth?
Might he have been considering unlocking the silmarils, but decided not to because the apparant impatience of the Valar might have sounded over greedy to Feanor?That is exactly what he was doing. He was weighing his options and seeking to make some sense out of all. His arrogant conclusion was that HE could certainly do a better job of handling Melkor than they and he was willing to sacrifice his sons and all of his people in the process. I doubt he ever even considered breaking the Silmarils. His lust and greed for them was too great. Heck!! He hardly ever brought them out in public just because he was so jealous of anyone else even getting a glimpse of their splendour.
Was this just because Finwe was couragious and would not be frightened away from his own home? Or was there more to it... was he protecting the Silmaril?Finwe was protecting his home and also showing his greatness. He didn't run from Melkor, he didn't fear Melkor... as a matter of fact, he saw Melkor for what he was and was willing to die in defense of his home.Well how might they have been? And why?The narrator/story teller (Tolkien) is giving us a hint that had the two trees been restored that many things would have been different. For one, the Valar would not have been preoccupied with the Noldor and their flight. They would have been able to concentrate on the real problem of Melkor. Once Feanor made his pact, responsibility for dealing with Melkor in Arda fell to the Noldor. The Valar were determined to let the Curse run its course and would not interfere in the affairs of Arda. Why'd she fear that?Because she could not make the Two Trees again. If the light were to have faded forever, she doubted she could restore it. At that moment, it appears Yavanna felt that the only hope for the restoration of the Light was through the recovery of the Silmarils. It wasn't until Manwe requested that both Yavanna and Nienna to put forth their powers of growth and healing that the fruits of the Sun and Moon were borne.Did Feanor have anything in mind for men? How do you suppose Feanor and his people would have ruled if they could have defeated Morgoth? Would Feanor have become a dark lord? Might it have been best that Feanor did not defeat Morgoth?Who cares. Ask a question about Fingolfin!!
How is that Feanor had such power with words to sway the Noldor into folly of haste, and even to sway them against the counsel of the one they would take as their leader, and yet not sway them to take him as King?They liked the message but not the messenger.
Isn't it rotten of the people of Tirion to refuse to renounce Fingolfin only if he would go with them? "I will follow, only if you will do what I want"?
Didn't they love him and want him as their king? Then why would they renounce him if he would do what his wisdom told him was right?The Noldor weren't acting rationally at this time. A mass hysteria had swept over the Race and the lies of Melkor were coming to fruition. It stunk that they wouldn't follow him unless he left. Just a guess, but I still believe that the bulk of the Noldor would still not have followed Feanor. I feel they would have followed Fingon instead had Fingolfin stayed behind. Just my humble opinion.
Were the Teleri right to refuse aid? What do you think of the fact they would not go into Middle-earth and fight beside their kin that they loved?The Teleri were not under the mass hysteria stirred up by the lies of Melkor and the madness of Feanor. They saw things through clearer eyes and were loyal to the Valar. I admire them mightily for their loyalty to the Rulers of Valinor.
I think Fingon was very influencial in the whole mess. Had he spoke against Feanor as did his father, and his brother then Fingolfin would have had one less reason to go along with Feanor.You are absolutley right. Were it not for Fingon, Fingolfin would likely not have left Valinor... but you know how young kids are... always wanting to delve off into new adventures and never listening to their parent's advice...

Should Maedhros have tried to talk some sense into his father about the abandoning of Fingolfin's people?He did... just later... right before Feanor set the ships on fire. ;)

[Artanis]

What do you suppose was going through Feanor's mind right then?
Might he have been angry, and recalling the words of Morgoth?I think he was just overwhelmed by the thought of breaking the jewels that he cherished so much. The words of Aulë here is interesting: "We ask a greater thing than thou knowest." How so? Aulë was a craftsman, as was Fëanor, and he knew by own experience what great offer it was to destroy a magnificent selfmade piece of art, something that could never be made again. Aulë however passed the test, Fëanor did not.
Well how might they have been? And why?If Fëanor had known of his father's death before he was asked to submit the Silmarils, he might have been able to give them up. For though he loved his jewels, he loved his father far more. Maybe the pain from the loss of the Silmarils would have seen little to him compared to the anguish of the death of his father.

Should Maedhros have tried to talk some sense into his father about the abandoning of Fingolfin's people?Didn't he do just that? At Losgar, before the ships were burned.

[Artanis]

Were it not for Fingon, Fingolfin would likely not have left Valinor...Oh yes he would. He would still honourably have kept his word to his brother, and he would have followed his people out of love and loyalty. Even Finarfin, the wisest of the brothers, went along through the first kinslaying and as far as Araman. Not until the Doom of Mandos were uttered did he turn back.

[Ingwë]

What do you suppose was going through Feanor's mind right then?Might he have been angry, and recalling the words of Morgoth?[/COLOR]
Might he have been considering unlocking the silmarils, but decided not to because the apparant impatience of the Valar might have sounded over greedy to Feanor?I think that Feanor thought about the dead of his father. I agree that he was angry because he knew that Melkor is a Vala, an evil Vala in addition, and Manwe and co. didn’t stop him. Then he recalled Melkor’s words. I think that he could give the Jewels to the Valar but they were impatient and he changed his mind, so he refused to give the Silmarils.
Was this just because Finwe was couragious and would not be frightened away from his own home? Or was there more to it... was he protecting the Silmarils?Finwe knew that his son loves the Jewels. They are his precious. Probably he decided to protect the Silmarils. Finwe is The King of the Noldor; he left his home and dwelled in Feanor’s. He had nothing left to loose. I’m sure that Feanor wouldn’t leave the Silmarils to Morgoth. Finwe, who loved his son, knew that and he decided to keep the Jewels
Well how might they have been? And why?At first he said yes. But later he changed his mind to no. If he didn’t do that I think that he would ask the Valar to help him and so there won’t be so much death. My opinion is that the Valar would help him if he’s patient. Or if they don’t help him at least they won’t kick him out of Valinor. But if he’s impatient and the Valar refuse to help him I think that he will go to Middle-earth to destroy Melkor.Why'd she fear that?I think she feared because the Silmarils are the light, the last light in Arda. She could save the Trees with that light.Well, The Laurelin and Telperion kept the last glimmer of hope but it wasn’t enough to resurrect them. She said that even the Valar cannot recreate the Trees again. Did Feanor have anything in mind for men? How do you suppose Feanor and his people would have ruled if they could have defeated Morgoth? Would Feanor have become a dark lord? Might it have been best that Feanor did not defeat Morgoth?I don’t think that Feanor knew much about the Men. I think he spoke of the Valar. Didn’t Melkor tell him that the Valar keep the Elves in prison, because the Children of Eru are very powerful (or something like that). Fingolfin and the sons of Finarfin went to Middle earth. I think that they disliked Feanor and if Feanor overthrew Morgoth he would have problems with the other Elven lords. He cannot rule. However, I don’t think he would become a Dark Lord. He is like the nationalists of our time, I think. He just loves his people and wants the best for them but he doesn’t care about the other races. He wouldn’t be happy when he saw the Men, the Secondborn, and he would try to kill them all. Then he would have great problems with the Valar. Hm… I don’t think that they will allow him to kill even one Man I think that Feanor was doomed to die and to see the fruits of his deeds: death, blood, sorrow…

How is that Feanor had such power with words to sway the Noldor into folly of haste, and even to sway them against the counsel of the one they would take as their leader, and yet not sway them to take him as KingWell, did he speak about King? Did he say that he wants to be a King? No, I think he didn’t.
Were the Teleri right to refuse aid? What do you think of the fact they would not go into Middle-earth and fight beside their kin that they loved?I think that the War against Melkor is not their war. They were blessed because they lived in Valinor, they had all they want. Why would they go to kill and to be killed? Their King wasn’t slain. They just didn’t have good reason to go to war. They refused aid because they knew what happened in Valimar with Feanor and the Valar but they couldn’t stop the Noldor because they were told not to stop themto go wherever they want.
Which of these reasons do you think was the biggest for Fingolfin?
I think the reason is this: Fingolfin went because Fingon urged him, because of his earlier words to Feanor, and because he did not want to foresake his people, leaving them to the rash counsel of Feanor... even though they would have foresaken him!Fingolfin loved his son and his people. He knew that Feanor is mad because of their fathers’ death and he didn’t want to leave them to a leader like Feanor. Should Maedhros have tried to talk some sense into his father about the abandoning of Fingolfin's people?
Well, I think he should but I would say that his words wouldn’t have affected Feanor. He would rather say that his son is a traitor. I think that Feanor forget about everything save Melkor, the Silmarils and his father when he was told that Morgoth kill Finwe and took the Jewels. And that lasted till the end of his life. He knew that Fingolfin’s people may have make problems and he decided to leave them. That was a mistake. Feanor almost entered Morgoth’s keep with his people. What would happen if all Noldor were together. I think they were powerful enough to overthrow Morgoth.