The Council of Five

[Lhunithiliel]

This will be the "service" thread for the members of the Council of Five at our Guild to:

>> express their opinions
>> promote new ideas
>> discuss the matters of the Guild

and whatever necessary to run the Guild smoothly!

You are welcome! :D

It is going to be an open thread, so all the members of the Guild will have access to it and will be also very much welcome to post comments.

[Beleg]

erm, what exactly is the Council of Five? :(

[Lhunithiliel]

Ah, Beleg! Read the "New Guild Master" thread! :D
*******

However, let me present the

Council of Five:

Grond - Honourable Chairman of the Council of Five

Honourable Members:

Lhunithiliel - Co-Chairman (to act in the absence of the ONE and ONLY! :D)
FoolOfATook
Hirila
Gil-Galad
Mrs.Maggott

Honourable Squires:

Finduilas
Beleg-strongbow
Eol
********

Any suggestions and opinions - gladly accepted.

I would also like to say that I have applied with the WM to be the person to take care of moderating within the Guild.

[FoolOfATook]

I would also like to say that I have applied with the WM to be the person to take care of moderating within the Guild.

Sounds good.

So, is their anything on the immediate agenda for this most honourable council? I'd reccomed that we coordinate a team for the upcoming debate tournament (note to self: talk to the former Pippin Took to make sure that, with both of us busy with C9 and other such things that it's still on ;)).

[Lhunithiliel]

:D Don't ask!!!

SUGGEST! :p :D

******

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
So, is their anything on the immediate agenda for this most honourable council?
Here are a few things for a start:

1/ Membership - IMO the Guild needs "fresh blood" ASAP. We need to invite more members and I hope Hirila will do this fine. Right, Hirila? :)

2/ The Debate Tournament - serious organization!
Check here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=308955#post308955) The Tournament is coming!
G-G?!?

3/ I also invite Beleg as my Honourable Squire ;) :D in the "Education" activities!
Beleg, just tell me if you agree and we'll then discuss.

All of the Deputies may follow my "example" and invite a Squire to assist.

4/ We also need to think of some form of organization concerning the activity of the members. The testing-ranking should be taken up very seriously.

(***duck to avoid FoaT's rotten tomatoes thrown at me***But don't worry! I'm studying! I'll take it! ;) :D)

But still, I think the testing is not ALL and it is not ENOUGH. Master Took? Ideas?

5/ I would also like to tell the members of the Council this:

From YOU I expect the utmost activity!!!!
If YOU are not active, what to expect from the other members of the Guild?!
So, whatever your duties in R/L may be, (don't think I have none!) I count on your responsibility.

Otherwise, it is ridiculous to have a Council of 5 and so many people in the Guild's administration body, when they do NOT show active attitude.

Lhun
/waiting for a "boom" of opinions/

[Hirila]

My first idea on becoming Deputy Guildmaster went into the same lines as Lhun's.

We need new members. What is going on in the Guild lately smells like (Sorry for that, don't take me seriously) old feet.

Therefore I invite any non-member who reads this and desperately wants to become a member but has never seen a chance of becoming one: PM me and everything will be fine. We have open positions we would very much like to fill.

Additionally I will go on a recruiting tour through the forum and perhaps do some PR work in the Announcements. Might be I will need some assistant recruiters, but I'll come back and ask for them. This won't happen before next week, but then, my friends, *rubs her hands* I'm ready for anything.

[Gil-Galad]

Having in mind that we need a serious preparation in order to make a strong team I'll suggest a plan tonight,concerning members who wants to participate.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Just a thought for speculative purposes: (that is, something we don't have to "act on" right away - a/k/a another opportunity to procrastinate!)

We are the Guild of Tolkienology which means, of course, that we study the Master's works. However, it should also mean that we at least have a "working knowledge" of those things which influenced Tolkien as well. He most assuredly didn't write in a vacuum. Further, he never pretended that everything he wrote sprang directly from his fertile brain as did Athena from the forehead of Zeus. Tolkien was a deeply and intelligently religious man, yet he was fixated by fantasy, a situation which frequently caused him no little amount of anxiety. He repeatedly informed his fellow Catholics (especially the clergy) that LOTR was a "Christian" tale, yet he also categorically stated that it contained "no religion". His "Valar" bear many of the qualities of the old gods of Valhalla and Olympus. Indeed, in the beginning he even called them "gods" (small "g") rather than angels or valar. He believed that "fairy tales" represented far more than mere children's stories although much of their original context had been lost or changed since their arising. He felt that pagan myth frequently contained "racial memories" of man's interaction with God - the true God and not mere mythological entities - and that they contained truths too large for their believers to recognize; eternal truths which came to fruition in the Incarnation.

In short, Tolkien's works are an odd admixture of Christian moral and ethical principles, his understanding of Creation (Christian) and, at the same time, the urgent and poignant desire to incorporate the myths he loved so well into modern England (and modern English). In effect, as an author (and if the polls are to be believed, the greatest author of the 20th Century) he is rather unique. He raised the genre of "fantasy" from the level of comic books to true art. He created a world whose "history" has attracted more followers and interest than does much of the history of the real world. In this way, he is unlike most authors of this, the last or any other century and it might be wise and prudent to see if it is possible to at least lay the groundwork showing those influences that produced both the author and his works.

[Eöl]

and it might be wise and prudent to see if it is possible to at least lay the groundwork showing those influences that produced both the author and his works.

Definitely worth it, IMO!:) I think a study of HoME may be in order, or possible a look at The Tolkien Reader.

[Beleg]

3/ I also invite Beleg as my Honourable Squire in the "Education" activities!

Sure, the honorary square feels honored. What do you want me to do?:)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Sure, the honorary square feels honored. What do you want me to do?:)
:D
Good!

Well, my SqIre, I need you to take good care of three threads - The "Event Game" the "Trivia" and most of all of the "Study".
I need your active assistance in reviving the activities in these threads.

Agree? :D

[FoolOfATook]

I think a study of The Tolkien Reader could be interesting, and probably more people could get into it than a study of the HoMe.

All of the Deputies may follow my "example" and invite a Squire to assist.

Interested, Eol? ;)

4/ We also need to think of some form of organization concerning the activity of the members. The testing-ranking should be taken up very seriously.

I take the testing more seriously than SOME members of the Council who were just made Guild Masters..... ;) :D

But still, I think the testing is not ALL and it is not ENOUGH. Master Took? Ideas?

I don't quite follow what you mean? Do you want MORE testing, or more ranking, or what?

Right now, I think we should focus on getting ready for the debate tournament, but all of the points brought up are very valid, particularily membership. It seems that I'm seeing more people with "Scholars" tags in their sigs than I used to, while I can tell you that we've had fewer new members than even when I first became a deputy. Probably a short term trend, but it still should be addressed, in my opinion.

[Gil-Galad]

If I can invite a Squire to assist me I would like to invite Finduilas.
She is very clever,ambitious and her way of thinking is more mature than that of other 15 years old girls.
Fin,would you like to assist me?:)

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
If I can invite a Squire to assist me I would like to invite Finduilas.
She is very clever,ambitious and her way of thinking is more mature than that of other 15 years old girls.
Fin,would you like to assist me?:)

:o Thanks GG for the kind words!!!Of course, I'd like to! It'll be an honour!;) :) :)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook

It seems that I'm seeing more people with "Scholars" tags in their sigs than I used to, while I can tell you that we've had fewer new members than even when I first became a deputy. Probably a short term trend, but it still should be addressed, in my opinion.
I've seen that too.The fact that we are about 25 members and we were more than 50 makes me think that we should work very hard in the future to change that negative tendency.:(

[Eöl]

Interested, Eol?

You betcha!:)

About the membership issue, I would gladly advertise in Ost Tel' Eldalie over at M-e RPG, as well as here at the Guild Of Elves.

[Gil-Galad]

That's a good idea Eol!

[Lhunithiliel]

About membership -
The thing here is not JUST invite people BUT invvite those, who would really be and ARE interested in the books. Which means - look carefully who posts what and how much knowledge s/he shows and then invite. :)

About ranking & testing (this is becoming such a fixed combination like "bread & butter" :p:D) -
I meant that I have seen a lot of people asking: "How soon shall I take the test after applying in the Guild?" or "How do I get a rank?"
I mean, we should make some short and clear statment about it.

Before the testing system (Oh! WHY did I ever suggest it?! :eek) it was - get a rank only by stating what books one has read and how many times. Now it is a matter of defending your knowledge.

I know, it is important to welcome new members and explain to them how this system works.
But for me personally the most important thing is to see GoT members in ACTION!

[Beleg]

About the membership, a personal experience.

The thing is that many new members have joined our side too, but they are not consistant enough. That's the problem, while the Scholars boast members like Idril, Elendil, baragund and Feanorian, jallan etc, who are very active, not only in their Guild but in all fora's. I don't know why people just don't participate in the Guild Activities, the lack of time might be a factor but one can reserve one or two hours a week for the Guild.

[Eöl]

The thing is that many new members have joined our side too, but they are not consistant enough. That's the problem, while the Scholars boast members like Idril, Elendil, baragund and Feanorian, jallan etc, who are very active, not only in their Guild but in all fora's. I don't know why people just don't participate in the Guild Activities, the lack of time might be a factor but one can reserve one or two hours a week for the Guild.

Certainly, that is the thing I worry about most when asking new people to join. Lack of participation is not a good thing, and it also leads to unnecessary clutter and confusion of the member list. That is a very big problem at the Guild Of Elves, members who do not participate. That is why the testing system is such a good idea, IMO. If you want to join this guild, some proof of your knowledge needs to be shown, and also some participation.

[Gil-Galad]

Lack of interest!!.........
We should give an impetus to the new members to participate in the activities.FOAT told me about discussins about Hobbit-a place where new members can write and participate.Something easy and ligght-hearted.

[Beleg]

G-G, it was a project that had to be supervised and prepared by Samjor, but Samjor seems to have vanished and I have seen neither head nor tale of him from many a days.
And as for lack of interest, the problem is not with the lack of activities, the activities are many and interesting, but the problem is with the lack of participation on Member's part.

[Lhunithiliel]

And I think we just need "fresh blood" :D
We have a few active members who are doing wonderful job....let's find some more like them ;)

[Mrs. Maggott]

You know, as I became "reinterested" in Tolkien after years of neglect and joined the forum, I have read quite a few books on the author. Let's face it, when I first was interested, only the Carpenter book was available and that was a more or less straight biography (as I remember it). Now there are the Shippey books and others which talk about Tolkien's "roots", the things that motivated him, that inspired him and that caused him concern (such as this "disconnect" between his love of pagan myth and his faith). I had suggested earlier (somewhere, perhaps on this thread) that we should do some more work into the myths that form the foundation of his works (and they are all inter-related: Greek, Norse etc.) and seek out the threads that Tolkien developed and what he did to "Christianize" them or "Anglicize" them to make his "English" myth. It might be very enlightening to see how they were crafted into what came to be Middle-earth.

[Lhunithiliel]

Definitely!
This is sure to be done! :)
And it will be so much useful and so interesting!!!

[FoolOfATook]

G-G, it was a project that had to be supervised and prepared by Samjor, but Samjor seems to have vanished and I have seen neither head nor tale of him from many a days.

I've actually spoken with samjor recently about this project, and he told me that he was too busy to work on it right now, and asked me if I would look after it. Now, I don't really have the time to take on another project here at TTF, but I would like to see this project take fruit.

[Anamatar IV]

I'd be happy to take over this project for Samjor. Don't worry about time...Summer Vacation is just around corner?;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Good, Anamatar! :)

You can read a lot about the project in the "Study", but there are also two separate threads - on in the "Announcement" forum and another one here in the Guild. You just shall have to find them and if you have any questions, ask me or Took - we both know all about it...
Well, if you ask why neither of us have undertaken it so far, I'll tell that Took has too much on his head - so many projects to take care of....while I ... I think that when someone comes up with a project (which I often call "baby") one should take care of it personally! One cannot just throw out an idea and let only other people do it ,without paying any more attention!
I understand that sth. seriously must have happened to samjor to not be able to continue his participation in TTF, but I was right beside him when this project started and I did quite some organizational work on it and .....unfortunately saw no much interest shown, so .... I think he just let it be.

Anyway, I hope that you now can come up with some fresh ideas and try to bring this project to life! :)

[Gil-Galad]

OOOOO I see that a wonderful idea is going to be started!Go Anamatar!!!!And how will we find out "fresh blood"?

[Eöl]

A while back, I was always meaning to talk to Lhun or FoaT about this, but I could never seem to find the time.:( I talked to Beorn on AIM, and he said that he would post an announcement for us. You know, like the kind they made when C-9 was getting started, the ones that appear at the top of every forum.:) However, I figured I should ask the guild what to write. So what do you guys think? We'd best make sure everything is well organized when the announcement is given, because I'm sure we will have a large response! My summer break is coming too Anamatar. I'm glad to help out in any way I can.:)

[FoolOfATook]

Eöl- that's awesome. I'll try to put something together tonight or tommorrow, and then post it here so we can all re-write everything that the rest of you hate. ;)

[Finduilas]

Right,I think that the discussion of the Hobbit has started already or hasn't it?

Anyway,I wanted to suggest an idea which would probably be quite intresting for everybody.I'd like to initiate a course concerning more or less Tolkien again.:) However,the difference is that the main point of the course would be:

1.Teach us about the history,geography,culture,literature ,etc. of Great Britain.
2.Compare and contrast the English and Nordic myths and tales with the ones by Tolkien.
3.By learning about Britain's towns,etc., try to track where Tolkien lived,taught.

Actually, these are the main purposes of the course-to both teach us something more about Britain and in parallel about Tolkien.
I suggest that we find some nice teachers here who are from Britain or are very interested in English culture and have a lot of knowledge.So I invite you here to offer your vast knowledge to the less educated...:)
Any teachers?

[Gil-Galad]

That can concern every country.Every country has something in coommon with Tolkien's world and every culture's mythology too.So I would loike to suggest something.After we finish the task about GB,we make it for the countries of the other members of GoT,countries like Bulgaria,Pakistan,USA,etc........

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
That can concern every country.Every country has something in coommon with Tolkien's world and every culture's mythology too.So I would loike to suggest something.After we finish the task about GB,we make it for the countries of the other members of GoT,countries like Bulgaria,Pakistan,USA,etc........

Yeah,you're absolutely right!
However,I wanted it to be Great Britain because it has much more relatiotion with Tolkien's works than any other country.That's why it would probably be better if it is the first as GG offered.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Yeah,you're absolutely right!
However,I wanted it to be Great Britain because it has much more relatiotion with Tolkien's works than any other country.That's why it would probably be better if it is the first as GG offered.
yeah,I agree GB should be the first one cause many alegories are made with it and Tolkiens' world.

[Finduilas]

OK,then about the teachers...
Well,I suggest that one of them would be Mrs.Maggort if she sgrees of course.:)
And the other may be joxy.However,I've sent him two pms but he doesn't answer me soI'd like to ask if anyone knows or is able to contact him,well,do it and tell him that he's invited to be a teacher in the Guild of Tolkienology.:)
So any other volunteers?

[Gil-Galad]

Mrs.Maggott in an excellent choice,because of her real life experience and cognition!I'm glad to be taught by Mrs.Maggott.

[Eöl]

Don't you all think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves here? The Hobbit Study has not even started yet, and what with the Debate Tourney I'm sure our guild will be absolutely busy for the next few weeks. Also, nearly everyone is participating in the Hall of Characters. This should probably be put on hold.

[Gil-Galad]

hmhhmhmh..............you are right.Even these days I have lots of difficulties to particiapate in the first round of the debate,to take part in other activities and to have personal life............I imagine how difficult it will be when we start that activity too.:eek:

[Beleg]

I agree with both of you. Inter and Intra Guild activities are keeping most of the Members busy and some of the members have their own personal responsibilties.

[Lhunithiliel]

Findi's idea is very good!
We have discussed it with her and I like it a lot.
However, it needs a thorough organization and well being thought of.

However:

First - New ideas are to be posted and discussed in the "Round Table"-thread, which is open precisely for this! ...You know me... ;) I like organization and seeing such discussions not in their place...makes me uneasy :p :D

Second - there is a great thread right here in the Guild, dealing with myths and history of other nations mirrored in T's works. Walter has done and is doing quite a job in reading and analysing this subject. Some of us may participate and others - just read, but in both cases it is here.

Third - the thing that the Guild is quite busy at the moment is true...true...true... :D

But this does not impede us from starting thinking over and discussing the best way such History course can be organized, what it should include (exact titles of the "lectures" etc.)

*****

I will ask a Mod to transfer this discussion to te Round Table and there we'll continue this talk .

All right? :cool:

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
I agree with both of you. Inter and Intra Guild activities are keeping most of the Members busy and some of the members have their own personal responsibilties.
We can the discussion about the Hobbite only for new members,and "greenies",thus they will participate too in the Guild's activities.We,the older members will not take part in it,cause we have some things of greater importance to do (like the debates,the Gallery etc.).In that way there would be better chance for new members too participate in discussion which is more light-hearted.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Findi's idea is very good!
We have discussed it with her and I like it a lot.
However, it needs a thorough organization and well being thought of.

However:

First - New ideas are to be posted and discussed in the "Round Table"-thread, which is open precisely for this! ...You know me... ;) I like organization and seeing such discussions not in their place...makes me uneasy :p :D

Second - there is a great thread right here in the Guild, dealing with myths and history of other nations mirrored in T's works. Walter has done and is doing quite a job in reading and analysing this subject. Some of us may participate and others - just read, but in both cases it is here.

Third - the thing that the Guild is quite busy at the moment is true...true...true... :D

But this does not impede us from starting thinking over and discussing the best way such History course can be organized, what it should include (exact titles of the "lectures" etc.)



Let me quote from "A Guide to Old English"People have now-a-days, said he, got a strange opinion that everything should be taught by lectures. Now, I cannot see that lectures can do so much good as reading the books from which the lectures are taken...

DrJohnson to Boswell; 1766Anyone looking for a - somewhat - deeper understanding of Tolkiens mythological and historical background should first read what T. himself has written (c.f. http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?John__Ronald__Reuel__Tolkien/Bibliography) and then start to explore the literary "Sources" which influenced Tolkien (c.f. http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?TolkiensSources).

Particularly helpful when trying to explore the mythological aspects of T's creation - aside from the primary sources mentioned above - I have found the books of Prof. T. Shippey (which represent IMO the most accurate and thorough examination of T's background), J. Grimm's "Teutonic Mythology", G. Ashe's "Mythology of the British Isles" and L.E. Jones' "Myths and Middle-earth" (the latter NOT because of its flawlessness, but mainly because it is the only book I know of that covers some of T's celtic influences in greater detail)

P.S.: If you're not aiming at a detailed and thorough knowledge, but rather interested to appear as a "Master Tolkienologist" around here, reading either one of Shippey books should provide you with sufficient material to toss in an educated remark here and there... ;)

[Eöl]

P.S.: If you're not aiming at a detailed and thorough knowledge, but rather interested to appear as a "Master Tolkienologist" around here, reading either one of Shippey books should provide you with sufficient material to toss in an educated remark here and there...

This is spam, but...lol!:D

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
This will be the "service" thread for the members of the Council of Five at our Guild to:

>> express their opinions
>> promote new ideas
>> discuss the matters of the Guild

and whatever necessary to run the Guild smoothly!

Now.... Do we have this Council still running?:confused: :eek: :eek:

Let's not forget that it is not some title that we are so very flattered to have, but it is a RESPONSIBILITY we have to take for the smooth running of the Guild affairs and for making the Guild activities active, live and interesting!

So,

WHERE ARE YOUR ACTIVE CONTRIBUTIONS?

WOULD IT BE TOO MUCH IF I ASKED FOR YOUR ACTIVE ATTITUDE?

[FoolOfATook]

My active attitude? My attitude is that the Guild is busy right now with the debate tournament, in which it is doing well. My attitude is that we're attracting top quality new members. My attitude is that right now most of the Guild is either taking exams or has just finished them, and that a lot of brains are tired. ;) I'd like to see the Hobbit project for "newbies" get up and running, and if I can help with it, I'm willing to try to fit it into my schedule. Overall, my attitude towards the Guild is that it is an exciting time for us, and I'm pretty happy with the way things are going.

[Mrs. Maggott]

After everyone's brain is a little less "stressed", I would like to see the Guild undertake a "Tolkien himself" thread (which may already have been done in the past) for only by understanding the author can we hope to reach a deeper understanding of his works. For instance, consider his "lovers" - Beren and Luthien, Aragorn and Arwen and even the more tragic ones - in connection with Tolkien's own relationship with his wife when they were young and even after their marriage and also with the difficult courtship and tragic and short lived marriage of his parents. These are the sort of life situations that were bound to influence him quite as much as his more intellectual pursuits. As an author, one cannot divorce deeply traumatic emotional events in one's life from one's creative writings.

However, as I said, this sort of thing might already have been accomplished by the Guild prior to my membership. ;)

[Gil-Galad]

...hm I must say some things about the activities I'm responsible for.
First of all .The Gallery of Characters -I think it develops very good,though I expected more persons outside the Guild to wish to participate.But it probably need some more advertising.I must confess that the biographies so far are really amazing and WILL contribute a lot for the future education of new members or such who doesnot know much about some characters.
-The Hall of Essays -well,it has a regress in a way but many people just don't have enough time to participate.The other problem is that some of the judges are not able to take decision on time.But the things will be changed very soon.
The Great Debates -I think that our Guild is the most organized one in terms of preparing teams for the next rounds,suggesting ideas,and participation.The "greeny" program is working and I must notice that the first "greeny"-Finduilas did a great job and I'm sure the others will give their best in Rounds 5 and 6 till the end of the tournament.
I'm thinkin of new activities,but to be honest I do not think we all have time for more and more activities.Don't we have some more important thigns to do(The Tournament?)

[FoolOfATook]

I would like to see the Guild undertake a "Tolkien himself" thread

I think this is a terrific idea- I'd like to help work on this one, since I find Tolkien the man to be every bit as interesting as his works.

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey! I'm glad that you did not throw rotten eggs at me for pushing you again! :p :D

I love the idea, M.M.! Just like the one suggested at the Round Table! :D

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
I think this is a terrific idea- I'd like to help work on this one, since I find Tolkien the man to be every bit as interesting as his works.
hey,hey I want to help too........that seems to be one of the most interesting threads in the future.

[Mrs. Maggott]

One thing I'd like to develop is the "orphan syndrome". Tolkien lost his father when he was very young and had "father figures" as he grew up, some of whom caused him great pain when they financially and emotionally abandoned his mother (whom he also lost at an extremely impressionable age) upon her conversion to Catholicism. Of course, he then gained the father figure of Fr. Francis, but he also was problematic in his granite refusal to permit Tolkien even to write to Edith after they fell in love, keeping the young people quite apart until Tolkien reached his majority of 21.

Two of Tolkien's major characters in LOTR - Frodo and Aragorn - are orphans although Aragorn (like Tolkien) did not lose his mother at the same time as his father (Frodo did). Aragorn's "foster father" - Elrond - also stood between his foster son and the woman he loved and placed upon him great strictures and caveats regarding their eventual marriage. Actually, Fr. Francis stands for both characters' father figures in my opinion: he was quite a comedian and very unconventional (Bilbo), but in his role as priest and an intecessory before God - and Tolkien's confessor - he was "more than man" (Elrond) in the view of the boy Tolkien was and the man he became.

I don't think there can be any doubt that Tolkien's own family situation appears at least in LOTR and possibly other works as well.

[Eöl]

Hey! I'm glad that you did not throw rotten eggs at me for pushing you again!

*throws a bunch of rotten eggs at Lhun*:p


The problem we had with the Hobbit activity is that no one was interested. There must be some way of getting more students!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Eöl
*throws a bunch of rotten eggs at Lhun*:p

The problem we had with the Hobbit activity is that no one was interested. There must be some way of getting more students!
**Lhun ducks and avoids the eggs :p :p :D***

AND!!!!!! I don't want to hear ANY MORE EXCUSES!!!

[Gil-Galad]

And all the students for the Hobbit activity should be new members,cause it is easier than many others activities in the Guild.Thus they will have the chance to gain some experience before they enter the real Guild life.

[Finduilas]

I think that Hobbit project has died out...:rolleyes:
So won't we take some actions...

[Gil-Galad]

well... at the moment I think we are not able to start anything about the Hobbit,let's say that we have some more important problems to solve.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
well... at the moment I think we are not able to start anything about the Hobbit,let's say that we have some more important problems to solve.
It is very difficult to "solve" that of which one is ignorant. Something is obviously going on - first FoAT and the Beleg - but no one will say anything - or at least anything that makes sense. On the other hand, obviously people within the Guild are conferring via pm's and perhaps e-mails, but that does nothing to enlighten the Guild at large - and so, the Guild at large can do nothing to help or even to offer suggestions.

If we are going to have smaller "guilds" functioning within larger "Guilds", then it makes no sense to have the larger group at all since many within it will be forever cut off from a great many things that are happening but of which they know nothing.

[Gil-Galad]

I see your point Mrs.Maggott.Let's first see what will happen with Beleg and then I promise I'll personally (with the help of Finduilas of course)will develop the Study of the Hobbit.

[Mrs. Maggott]

You misunderstand me. It is not the activity to which I refer, but the problem with Beleg. I have no idea why he has left the Guild, but apparently others do - and that is the problem. It does not appear to be a simple matter of a lack of time to participate nor do I think that FoAT left under such benign circumstances either.

The simple fact is that [1] we all know what's going on, or [2] we don't have a Guild but a collection of cliques whose members are the only ones "in the know" about what's going on within them. If that is indeed the case, then there really is no "Guild" at all and Beleg has "left" a particular group within the Guild which in his mind (and others, I guess), constitutes "The Guild" while "outsiders" like myself haven't the foggiest idea of what's going on!

[Gil-Galad]

MM,I personally don't know what's happening,and why is happening so.
I know only that FOAT left without saying anything and some time later Beleg did the same thing.What should I think?!I hope only that Beleg did not leave us because of other people's influence.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Frankly, if either Guild member left for reasons other than a matter of simple personal constraints (that is, if they were upset, angry or hurt by someone in the Guild and this caused them to leave) then they should have told the person or persons involved. It is grossly unfair to simply "leave" without some sort of explanation. It leads to the very type of speculation that is happening here and possibly recriminations and blame.

Our two former members had a reason for leaving the Guild and they should have had the courtesy of stating that reason(s) for the sake of those who remain. Otherwise, they are sowing discord and suspicion and that is frankly unacceptable. If it is purely personal - something going on at home - then they need only say that it has nothing to do with anyone in the Guild or the forum. That is simple enough, surely. If it does have to do with someone in the Guild or they have acted at the behest of someone on the forum, they owe us that much information at least.

[Lhunithiliel]

Mrs.Maggott, I can understand how you feel and I can assure you that there is no a clique or anything around here!

Last year there was such a case once - of several of the best members of the Guild left. Then I got almost "sick" although not even a Deputy! But at least they had a noble purpose - Maedhros had formed a new Guild , so they went to support him!

But YES, they DID explain their reasons for leaving the Guild.

And I can also understand people who are too much busy in real life and can't participate.

Now... whatever the reason Took and Beleg had to leave the Guild, it seems it was a strong one. And if they don't want to comment on it... Fine!
It's a free community here. One may come in and one may come out....
Of course, it is always sad when someone is leaving!!!

The rest of us who stay in, we should better think about the wellbeing of this community and its future.

:rolleyes:

[Mrs. Maggott]

You are, of course, correct in saying that people may do as they please. However, it would seem to me that if one is leaving a group with which one has had rather close ties over a considerable period of time, then courtesy alone dictates that one gives the reason for one's actions. In the case of M. and the new Guild, that reason was made quite clear not only in his case but in the cases of those who followed him in support. No one had to scratch his or her head and wonder why these members had departed.

In the instant cases, however, too active members have just "left" without even so much as a "by your leave" as the old saying goes. Of course, they are free to act in such a way, but I am sorry to say that I find it rather rude and certainly lacking in consideration for those members with whom they have supposedly had a congenial relationship for a considerable period of time. Furthermore, such actions prompt the speculation that the reasons for their departure are such that they are constrained from imparting them to the rest of the Guild. That would mean that these reasons can hardly be "benign" for if they were, what would be the problem in telling the rest of us?

As for the "clique" comment, I am sorry if I misunderstood that certain members of the Guild possessed the above knowledge and were attempting to negotiate with these members personally while leaving the rest of us "out of the loop". Obviously, you have no more knowledge of why these members have left than do I and so I apologize for advancing that particular theory. However, that does not change my opinion of the actions of those individuals who have chosen to depart the Guild in such a mysterious and frankly rather hostile and contentious manner.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
You are, of course, correct in saying that people may do as they please. However, it would seem to me that if one is leaving a group with which one has had rather close ties over a considerable period of time, then courtesy alone dictates that one gives the reason for one's actions. In the case of M. and the new Guild, that reason was made quite clear not only in his case but in the cases of those who followed him in support. No one had to scratch his or her head and wonder why these members had departed.

In the instant cases, however, too active members have just "left" without even so much as a "by your leave" as the old saying goes. Of course, they are free to act in such a way, but I am sorry to say that I find it rather rude and certainly lacking in consideration for those members with whom they have supposedly had a congenial relationship for a considerable period of time. Furthermore, such actions prompt the speculation that the reasons for their departure are such that they are constrained from imparting them to the rest of the Guild. That would mean that these reasons can hardly be "benign" for if they were, what would be the problem in telling the rest of us?

As for the "clique" comment, I am sorry if I misunderstood that certain members of the Guild possessed the above knowledge and were attempting to negotiate with these members personally while leaving the rest of us "out of the loop". Obviously, you have no more knowledge of why these members have left than do I and so I apologize for advancing that particular theory. However, that does not change my opinion of the actions of those individuals who have chosen to depart the Guild in such a mysterious and frankly rather hostile and contentious manner.
Dear Mrs. Maggott, believe me , there was no "behind the scenes" talks or any explanations given in private.
I myself was as much surprised as the rest of us!
But as I said, everyone here is a personality and has her/his own free will of acting this way or the other.
I personally am sad when someone dear to me leaves the Guild.

But, sad as I might be, I will never impose my own opinion or demand from them to saty if they feel they don't want to. I guess they might have had strong reasons to leave the community and equally strong reasons to not give any explanations why they had done so.

I highly appreciate free will in doing what we are doing. I consider our Guild as a community and I care a lot about it.

People say, I'm taking it all very seriously and personally...

Perhaps... But this is how I am! :rolleyes:

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Dear Mrs. Maggott, believe me , there was no "behind the scenes" talks or any explanations given in private.
I myself was as much surprised as the rest of us!
But as I said, everyone here is a personality and has her/his own free will of acting this way or the other.
I personally am sad when someone dear to me leaves the Guild.

But, sad as I might be, I will never impose my own opinion or demand from them to saty if they feel they don't want to. I guess they might have had strong reasons to leave the community and equally strong reasons to not give any explanations why they had done so.

I highly appreciate free will in doing what we are doing. I consider our Guild as a community and I care a lot about it.

People say, I'm taking it all very seriously and personally...

Perhaps... But this is how I am! :rolleyes:
Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding regarding any "behind the scenes" activities.

However, as for you taking it seriously and personally, as you can appreciate by my posts, you are not the only one.

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, now, THIS is something so kind and good to hear! :D

Thank you! !!!!! :D

I am glad to know that there are people in our Guild who think the same way I do...

[Mrs. Maggott]

Well, the only thing I can suggest is that the above two ex-members be approached and asked to either post their reasons for leaving to the entire membership or at least be willing to state publicly that those reasons have nothing to do with the Guild or its present members. In that way, any and all speculation can cease at once and the Guild can go on in apparent harmony.

On the other hand, if they are unwilling to do at least that much for the peace of mind of their friends who remain in the Guild, the I fear that speculation regarding their reasons for leaving will remain rife and center on a problem within the Guild itself. This, to my mind at least, is troubling since if that problem is not addressed and solved we could find more members "leaving" without those of us remaining knowing why.

Perhaps those who were closest to the individuals involved could "pm" them and make this request? It seems a small favor to ask under the circumstances.

[Beleg]

I can't vouch for FOAT, but I personally left because things were happening which were against my ways and I felt that I could no longer try to live with them and still at the same time be happy.

Satisfied Mrs. Maggot?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
I can't vouch for FOAT, but I personally left because things were happening which were against my ways and I felt that I could no longer try to live with them and still at the same time be happy.

Satisfied Mrs. Maggot?
Thank you for your most courteous reply. But surely, whatever these "things" are, can they not be addressed among all of us in the Guild? I cannot imagine anything that could not be resolved with a conciliation process proceeding from mutual respect and good will! Are you willing to concede "defeat" and the need to distance yourself from the situation so quickly?

Of course, if you do not believe that the matter is worth pursuing, that is entirely up to you but it would seem that so many members are upset and aggrieved at your departure that that alone should give you pause to consider the wisdom of your decision. I certainly will miss your insight, expertise and kindness, but in view of same I would not attempt to force you to remain against you will.

Again, thank you for providing at least some answer to the question I posited.

[Beleg]

I don't think I can explain my reasoning here in public, without breaking some rules. Besides I am trying to talk with those I have a problem and am trying to solve it. But until It is solved I can't say I will return to the Guild. It will be fair neither for me or the Guild.
I appreciate you're advice and concern but not all things can be adressed in public.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
I don't think I can explain my reasoning here in public, without breaking some rules. Besides I am trying to talk with those I have a problem and am trying to solve it. But until It is solved I can't say I will return to the Guild. It will be fair neither for me or the Guild.
I appreciate you're advice and concern but not all things can be adressed in public.
I fully understand that not everything benefits from a public airing. However, if a "rule" is a problem (and they can be), then certainly such a thing can be publicly addressed in a "neutral" manner; that is, looking at the wisdom of such a rule existing and how under perhaps previously unconsidered circumstances it might redound to a negative rather than a positive result. I am reminded of the time when I was about two years old and wanted something of mine that was on the dining room table. I decided that if I pulled the tablecloth, the object would eventually fall off the table and I could retrieve it. Fortunately, my beloved grandfather - and physical engineer - arrived in time to explain to me that not only would my toy fall off the table, but so would everything else! I had not forseen that particular result (and who, after all, would expect a two year old to be able to do so)! Sometimes rules are made in the same way; that is, we do not foresee a particular result which is less than positive!

In any event, if I can be of assistance, publicly or privately, I stand ready to help. I hope that something can be worked out because when this sort of reaction begins, it can become widespread because those in conflict do not know how to address matters in such a way as to reach a harmonious conclusion to a dispute and the answer becomes simply to "leave". Unfortunately, that solves nothing because it leaves the original problem still in existence and ready to cause more "desertions" until everything and everyone is fragmented past resolution.

God bless.

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, now.... Am I not a true "wraith"! :D

Beleg, I thought this might be the problem...
All right! I hope it will be soon settled.

Meanwhile, let us just think for a bit of how very different as personalities we all are! We have our opinions, we agree or disagree, we like and dislike things...

But this variety, IMO, should only help the general development and improvement of every one of our attempt.

If one suggests sth. and gets only "Yes" for an answer, then I personally get suspicious! I really do! An opinion should be and must be put to criticism and only the majority of votes on the discussed issue must eventually decide.

To put it in other words - I personally am not against any constructive criticism!

The criticism I am against is the one like : "[i] I don't like this! But I can't offer an alternative!"
One should offer an alternative when disagreeing with a matter discussed!

[Mrs. Maggott]

I might be entirely wrong, but I do believe that a lot of people were "burned" in past disputes and therefore are chary about publicly disagreeing with anything. As a result, they find things being put into motion with which they disagree and feeling somewhat impotent, they simply become angry or disgusted and "opt out" of the process. Well, this is entirely counter-productive. We should not be afraid to disagree with one another nor should anyone take as a personal attack another person voicing his or her disagreement with a position or suggestion. If I think the Guild should perhaps "do" Project "A" and someone else thinks it is not the way we should be going, that doesn't mean that that person is "against" me. It only means that he or she disagrees with my suggestion - and that's fine!

However, at the same time, we should all be willing to compromise and perhaps accept various Guild activities in which other members might wish to participate that do not interest us in return for those members awarding us the same courtesy. Not everyone is going to want to participate in every activity, nor is it necessary that each and every member "sign on" to each and every Guild activity. There should be enough things of interest for us all and those things that don't interest us should not be a problem. Only when an activity is of virtually no interest, should it be considered as having run its course and a candidate for termination.

The same thing can be said about "rules". If a "rule" causes more trouble than it prevents, it should be seriously considered as a candidate for termination. Rules are only supposed to permit the Guild to function efficiently and provide everyone with a "level playingfield" upon which to act. They are not supposed to be barriers to participation nor are they there to cause discord and any rule that does either should be quickly removed.

My dear friends in the Guild! If we cannot work together in an environment in which each one of us has chosen to participate, then I must ask what hope is there? Heavens! If we who agree on so much cannot find common ground here, then where in the name of all that's good is there common ground to be found - short of the grave??

[Beleg]

*The prodiagal Son enter's the settlement cautiously, his manner's tentative, beads of prespiration falling for his forehead periodically. He stops, stutters and looks around for the power's that be. He tries to speak, to utter out something, but his voice sticks in his throat and his face turns purple as vivid thoughts of the past relay in his head.
Summing up all his courage and willpower, he straigthens himself,
and in an almost unaudible voice chokes out,

'I am back'.*

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
*The prodiagal Son enter's the settlement cautiously, his manner's tentative, beads of prespiration falling for his forehead periodically. He stops, stutters and looks around for the power's that be. He tries to speak, to utter out something, but his voice sticks in his throat and his face turns purple as vivid thoughts of the past relay in his head.
Summing up all his courage and willpower, he straigthens himself,
and in an almost unaudible voice chokes out,

'I am back'.*
Oh, my dear Beleg! NEVER a prodigal! Just a friend welcomed back with open arms and heart! We are as enriched by your presence as we were impoverished by your absence. Whatever has happened, let all who have been involved remove the memory thereof as far as the East is from the West and gather once more in harmony and joy!

Hip hip hoorah for all of us in the Guild and all who come to her to honor the man whose gifts bring us together in the wonder that such talent and vision exist. And into the darkness and void let us cast all past injuries and slights, looking only to the light of a future of friendship.

[Finduilas]

Welcome back, Beleg!:)
You just can't imagine how happy I and every member of this honourable Guild is!!! You certainly will continue to be of great value to the Guild and of course to us!
Welcome back, Beleg Strongbow! Welcome back!:)

[Lhunithiliel]

See, my friend?

I am happy to see you back! :D

WELCOME BACK !!!!

:D :D :D :D :D

**********

Whatever the misunderstandings were, we are happy that the Guild has you again!

We all have to learn to live in a community and respect eah other's opinions and concerns.

And problems are IMO to be always discussed in a friendly manner and then the right solutions will be taken.

Right?

I am happy you're back!

[Gil-Galad]

Welcome back Beleg.You can't imagine how happy I am.I just can't believe you are back.I'm so glad to see you again in the Guild.

[FoolOfATook]

It does not appear to be a simple matter of a lack of time to participate nor do I think that FoAT left under such benign circumstances either.

Our two former members had a reason for leaving the Guild and they should have had the courtesy of stating that reason(s) for the sake of those who remain. Otherwise, they are sowing discord and suspicion and that is frankly unacceptable. If it is purely personal - something going on at home - then they need only say that it has nothing to do with anyone in the Guild or the forum. That is simple enough, surely. If it does have to do with someone in the Guild or they have acted at the behest of someone on the forum, they owe us that much information at least.

I was bored, and decided to check up on the old stomping grounds, and came across this. I think that perhaps Mrs. M is being a bit too savage in her criticism of me, but perhaps she's right. I suppose an explanation for my departure is in order.

I decided to leave the Guild for a few reasons, but the central factor was that I was no longer having fun. The Guild was simply stressing me out to the point where I realized that it was no longer worth it. Basicly, that's it. Nothing sinister, no juicy details of behind-the-scenes feuding, nothing particularily interesting, really. Did I like the direction that I saw the Guild going in? No, I didn't, and that was one of the stressors. However, who am I to say that various changes I saw coming (and now see taking place) are not for the better? Rather than sow discord and cause trouble, I chose to simply walk away.

Hoom, as I re-read this, I honestly can't say that I feel I "owe" this explanation to the Guild. I believe that the countless hours I devoted to the Guild give me the right to leave quietly if I so choose.

By the by, if the Guild is looking for a Tolkien scholar to study, it's worth noting that both of Tom Shippey's books are now in print and widely available. I realize that he's not an internet personality, but I guess that teaching at Oxford at the same time as Our Favorite Philologist probably counts for a little. Just a thought.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
I was bored, and decided to check up on the old stomping grounds, and came across this. I think that perhaps Mrs. M is being a bit too savage in her criticism of me, but perhaps she's right. I suppose an explanation for my departure is in order.

I decided to leave the Guild for a few reasons, but the central factor was that I was no longer having fun. The Guild was simply stressing me out to the point where I realized that it was no longer worth it. Basicly, that's it. Nothing sinister, no juicy details of behind-the-scenes feuding, nothing particularily interesting, really. Did I like the direction that I saw the Guild going in? No, I didn't, and that was one of the stressors. However, who am I to say that various changes I saw coming (and now see taking place) are not for the better? Rather than sow discord and cause trouble, I chose to simply walk away.

Hoom, as I re-read this, I honestly can't say that I feel I "owe" this explanation to the Guild. I believe that the countless hours I devoted to the Guild give me the right to leave quietly if I so choose.

By the by, if the Guild is looking for a Tolkien scholar to study, it's worth noting that both of Tom Shippey's books are now in print and widely available. I realize that he's not an internet personality, but I guess that teaching at Oxford at the same time as Our Favorite Philologist probably counts for a little. Just a thought.
The reason I suggested that an explanation was "owed" was that it is very hard to correct something if the individual or individuals involved don't know what it is! You say you were "stressed" by involvement with the Guild. Fine! If you had said that and then what form this "stress" was taking, then it could have been corrected or at least an attempt to rectify the situation could have been made. As it was, no one knew why you left and therefore, all that happened was useless (and perhaps even counter-productive) speculation. Thus, your concerns were not met and the rest of us had no idea what to do to help matters.

And that is all that I meant when I said that an explanation is "owed" to the Guild when a member leaves. If it is for personal reasons having nothing to do with the Guild, we can bit him or her a "farewell" and hope to see that person in the future when things calm down. However, if the problem does arise in the Guild, it is hardly fair not to give us an opportunity to do something about it.

[Lhunithiliel]

For being inactive and because several of the members have left this Council is dismissed.

At least untill the Guild members find it again necessary to have such a body. Only then we may again comment on the issue of having or not having it.

For the moment, the Guild will be aministered by:

A Guild - Master - Lhunithiliel
A Deputy on Inra/Inter Activities - Gil-Galad

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
For being inactive and because several of the members have left this Council is dismissed.

At least untill the Guild members find it again necessary to have such a body. Only then we may again comment on the issue of having or not having it.

For the moment, the Guild will be aministered by:

A Guild - Master - Lhunithiliel
A Deputy on Inra/Inter Activities - Gil-Galad
Sounds good to me. After all, we are hardly so great in numbers that "concensus" is a problem. Furthermore, I am of the firm belief that "less is often more" under most circumstances.

[Gil-Galad]

"less is often more"...........I hope this will not describe our Guild someday.:( :( :(

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
"less is often more"...........I hope this will not describe our Guild someday.:( :( :(
Better by far a few good projects and contributions than a host of mediocre ones. Volume is not always a good critera for excellence.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
Better by far a few good projects and contributions than a host of mediocre ones. Volume is not always a good critera for excellence.
You are right,but the more,the better!So I'll be glad if the old time returns,when some great members were here and did some great threads and posts.