Mortality: Irrevocable?

[Elfarmari]

One question which has always troubled me is this: why were the children of Elrond allowed to choose which kindred they wished to belong to, but the children of Elros were bound by their father's choice? Was this choice given only to Elrond's children, or had Elladen (sp?) or Elrohir chosen to be Eldar and had children, would these children have been given the same choice?

My impression from the information given is that Tolkien saw mortality as irrevocable, once chosen the Gift of Men could not be withdrawn. This is evidenced by the mortality of the descendents of Elros and Arwen. The main question is this: why is immortality revocable?

Any thoughts? I do not have the Letters of JRRT, perhaps he wrote on this topic?

note: immortality = the immortality of the Eldar, their fea is immortal within the life of the world.

[Celebthôl]

I was thinking this just today, and how unfair it was, but if Men (as they had proven) were scared of death they would all chhose to be immortal, wouldnt you?! therefore making the race of Men even less likely to survive and less likely to exist after an age or so....

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Elfarmari
One question which has always troubled me is this: why were the children of Elrond allowed to choose which kindred they wished to belong to, but the children of Elros were bound by their father's choice?

Wouldn't it be rather uncomfortable if one of the Kings of Numenor decided to 'become' immortal and rule his people forever, while they pass away? Just a thought.

[Anamatar IV]

The Kings of Numenor (Sons of Elros) were allowed to choose the hour of their death. I suppose this is compensating for the lack of choice?

[Celebthôl]

k i dont think they could choose their time like that, i mean if they could why were all the kings especially Ar-pharazon scared to die if he could decide when he would die?!

[Anamatar IV]

Because most the kings, though fearful, were honorable. As Gandalf said, only the heathen kings of old clung to life. Many laid themselves to rest just as Aragorn did when they saw the time fit.

Also, Ar-Pharazon DID hold on to life until he was old and crippled.

[Inderjit S]

The time in which they *chose* to die was at a set time limit at say 300 years. They could go out peacefully, or just live further then their natural course in life, which would've been somehwhere like 10 years and the death and life after the natural course would be painful, with the person becoming a dotard of sorts and they would die anyway. It's better to go the easier way then the hard one....

[Celebthôl]

well that makes sence, seems proper aswell :) alrighty ta

[YayGollum]

I would have thought that only certain people got to choose immortality or not just because they were a certain amount of elf and human. The people you're talking about were more of one type, right?

[Elfarmari]

I did not mean the question to be "should the Numenorean kings have been able to choose immortality?" The thing which made me confused was why Elrond's children were granted the choice. As I understand it, when the choice was made by Elros, he became as if he were 100% mortal. Likewise, Elrond became 100% Eldar. If this is true, Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir would have been 100% Eldar, so why would they have been able to choose immortality? Was this choice given only to Elrond's children, or had Elladan or Elrohir chosen to be Eldar and had children, would these children have been given the same choice? I agree that giving the Numenorean kings the choice to be immortal would not have been beneficial, but are there not also disadvantages to being immortal? Mortals can leave this world forever, while the Eldar must linger, whether they will or no, and see the world around them change. Tolkien wrote that with the wearing of Time even the Valar would envy the Gift of Men, so perhaps descendents of Elrond granted this choice would have had an 'advantage' over other Elves as immortal Numenoreans would over other men?

[Ithrynluin]

Tolkien wrote that with the wearing of Time even the Valar would envy the Gift of Men, so perhaps descendents of Elrond granted this choice would have had an 'advantage' over other Elves as immortal Numenoreans would over other men?

I thought about this also, but I cannot comment on it further. It certainly seems like in the end, the fate of men is more favourable or desirable than that of Elves (and the Ainur in Arda).

As I understand it, when the choice was made by Elros, he became as if he were 100% mortal. Likewise, Elrond became 100% Eldar. If this is true, Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir would have been 100% Eldar, so why would they have been able to choose immortality?

Only their fates were changed or even 'sealed'. Their blood remained 'mingled'. I'm sure that's what you meant though.

[YayGollum]

Oh. Got it. Well, it seems to me to be that any elf can choose to be a human. The gods just gots to agree with them. Looks like they did with Arwen. Humans aren't allowed to become elves for some reason. oh well.

[Elfarmari]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Well, it seems to me to be that any elf can choose to be a human. The gods just gots to agree with them. Looks like they did with Arwen.
Arwen was given the choice as were her brothers because they were the children of Elrond, and the Valar gave them the choice also. I could be wrong, but I don't think the Elves could choose mortality.

[YayGollum]

Uh, huh. Well, it's just a bunch of unfairness. Everybody likes elves better. Looks like the gods do, too. They only give options to their favorites. Too bad. Or maybe there were always thinking ---> "Oh, the gift of mortality is just so great that we'd never want to take that from them even if the little humans feel like they're being treated unfairly! Boy, I wish I could be mortal!"

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
Because most the kings, though fearful, were honorable. As Gandalf said, only the heathen kings of old clung to life. Many laid themselves to rest just as Aragorn did when they saw the time fit.
Also, Ar-Pharazon DID hold on to life until he was old and crippled.

Anamatar, I am not sure what you mean in your statement? Is the comparison derived from Gandalf's words to Denethor upon his pyre?; 'Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,' answered Gandalf. 'And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.' If so, I am unsure where the relationship between the two can be found!

[Turgon]

Just been reading through this thread and Tuor's fate immediately sprang into my mind - here we see a mortal man being granted a place amongst the Eldar. If we take this to be true (as I do) how then can mortality be irrevocable? It is possible that Sauron used this precedent in his corruption of Ar-Pharazôn, who after all was a decendant of Tuor and must have been familiar with his fate.

Man it seems can become immortal, though surely this must be a gift from Eru himself, for no Valar had the power to revoke a man's mortality.

[Elfarmari]

I had completely forgotten about the fate of Tuor. . . good point! That leaves me more confused about the apparent favoritism towards Elrond's children rather than Elros'.

[Celebthôl]

Well maybe it was granted to those in "true love" or so it appears.

If all those who loved a man from the race of Men could become Man then why shoud those who love an Elve enough not become Elven? i.e. in Tuor case he just appeared to "up anchor" to Valinor with the woman he loved and it appears that he was made Elven, correct me if im wrong...

"...but feeling old age coming upon him, he built the great ship Eärrámë and sailed into the West with Idril."

What happens here?

[Elfarmari]

The idea of true love does make sense, but it does not help the decision making. How is it decided who 'changes' race? Tuor, a man, loved Idril, an elf; but Idril, an elf, loved Tuor, a man. So should Idril be mortal or Tuor immortal? The same thing applies to Beren and Luthien (albeit their situation was different due to the Silmaril, Beren's death etc.) and to Aragorn and Arwen. Why should Arwen be the one to choose mortality rather than Aragorn choosing immortality?

[Celebthôl]

Because Aragorn had a duty, Arwen saw this, she saw it was her duty to provide a new heir of Isildúr and if Aragorn left ME then Men would fail and all would go into ruin...

[Tar-Elenion]

In Letter 153 JRRT writes:
"In the primary story of Lúthien and Beren, Lúthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immortality' and become 'mortal'...".
As an "absolute exception" Lúthien is the only 'Elf' who was allowed a change in fate.
JRRT goes onto write:
"Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way."
Thus no other Men were allowed to change their fate.
JRRT also wrote:
"Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."
Eru alone could allow a change in fate, and he allowed it only in those two cases.

[Elfarmari]

I just found
this thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1343) which is pretty much the same subject. . .

[Elfarmari]

This is a question I still think about occasionally; does anyone know if Tolkien explained why Arwen and her brothers were allowed to choose which race to belong to? This doesn't seem logical to me; I understand the choice of whether to stay in Middle-earth or sail to the West, but why do the children of an Elf and another who for all intents and purposes is now an Elf get to choose?

[Gothmog]

There is some information in Tolkien's Letters. Letter 153 To Peter Hastings (draft) has the following:

Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.
So it seems that although Elrond chose to be numbered among the Eldar this did not automatically make his children Eldar but rather they too were Half-Elven. We do not know if this would have continued through the generations as after Elrond left Middle-earth the time of the Eldar had ended and his children either stayed in M-e and married Men or went to the West (possibly Elrohir and Elladan) and could only be numbered among the Eldar.