Who or what am I - Discussion Thread!

[Ancalagon]

The idea of this thread is to allow members of the Guild and the forum at large, to pose a question using descriptive form, either in prose poetry, verse or even limerick if it suits you.

Select a subject matter, create a description for others to guess and once complete another can take up the challenge. Anything from Tolkiens work can be used either a location, character, item or building.

Any actual discussion on the subject matter can be added in here. Have fun:)

[Chymaera]

Riddles!:cool:

Born in the north,
exiled I was,
raised as a prince,
betrayed it is told.

Friends they were few,
Enemeies aplenty.
Outlaw, a name of honour.
Names taken and given.

Enchantments and curses
my daily fair.
Beware my friendship
it will do you ill.

===================================
I will put a little more time into the next one:)
I is very very hard to do. but fun to try.
and hard not to give it all away;)
I never claimed to be a poet.

[Ancalagon]

Chymaera, I will not hazard a guess as this should really go in the thread Who or What am I? This one is for discussion only;)

Eriol, I am sorry, you were of course correct though I should have made it clear that the thread was open to all members of the forum, not just the Guild!

[Ancalagon]

Thank God you got that Lhun, the riddle was driving me insane;)

[Turgon]

Walter - can you explain the Niordis thing? I thought briefly of Aldarion and of Niord from the Norse legends.

'But she chose not the young,
Decieved by my feet.'

Just couldn't make the connection with Middle-earth. Is there something in a footnote somewhere? Because bells are ringing in my head...:D

[Walter]

Once I was a god of old,
Niordis/Njörd was a god of the vanir

not at home, all on my own,
he was in his youth given as a hostage to the Aesir (in exchange for Haenir)

seafarer for many a year
master of wind, sea and fire,
he was ruling over the wind, sea and fire, the seafarers were worshipping him.


until I was chosen from the mountain girl,
a young spouse she wanted
and not an old f*rt,
but she chose not the young
deceived by my feet
Skadi was a giantess from the mountains, the Aesir had slain her father Thiassi and she went to Asgard to avenge her father, but the Aesir offered her atonement and compensation and she asked to choose herself a husband from the Aesir. Her request was granted, but she was to choose by the feet and see nothing else of them. And she choose the one with the most beautiful feet, hoping this would be Balder, but it was Niordis, the old f*rt :D

our "luck" begun.
It did not last long
for to different we were.
They married, but neither could Niordis stand to live in the mountains nor Skadi to live by the sea, so they eventually decided to live apart from each other.

Forsaken I was then for ages long
until I was "remembered",
as a mortal's son
to seafare once more
and anew the cycle began
a new love I found
but my lot was the same
parted once more,
a prodigal son
estranged to my wife
we could not fare well.
Here begins the account of Aldarion, Tolkien had evidently taken this idea as a base for his tale: "The Mariner's Wife"

I am son of a god
and son of a king,
First line refers to Niordis, second to Aldarion

my daughter goddess,
the other a queen
the first line refers to Freyja, the goddess of love and daughter of Niordis & Skathi, the second to Ancalimë


two names I was given
and yet I am one
now tell me good sir,
canst thou give me but one?

S, the right answer was either Niordis or Aldarion, I hope the riddle wasn't too mean...

As a sidenote: As another compensation for Thiassi's death, Odin took the eyes of the giant and threw them up into the sky and they became stars! Oh and Freyja had a beautiful necklace, made by Dwarves: Brisingamen...

Sources: Gylfaginning, Skaldskaparmal and Unfinished Tales

[Walter]

Turgon, I tried to explain my path of thoughts in the Discussion thread here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=310387#post310387).

I recently re-read some of those old nordic myths and that provided me with quite a few ideas about Tolkien's sources...

[Turgon]

A great riddle Walter - and well done Lhun! I guess we can all sleep easy tonight!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
Aldarion/Niordis is correct!

How did you guess? ;)
Ah!
Wraiths read minds and souls, you know! ;) :p :D

Seriously, things like the seafaring, the wife - thing and about the daughter, the two names... some other words and hints... All spoke about Aldarion.

I don't know anything about this Niordis....but I love the tale about Aldarion and Erendis.

[Lhunithiliel]

Anc: Thank God you got that Lhun, the riddle was driving me insane
Turgon:A great riddle Walter - and well done Lhun! I guess we can all sleep easy tonight!
You're welcome, boys! :D Hope you all really slept well.

But Walt, that was mean! :p How many of us know about all those Nordic and Scandinavian sagas and tales?!!!

But, truly - a great riddle!

Now....am I expected to post the next one? :rolleyes:

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
But Walt, that was mean! :p How many of us know about all those Nordic and Scandinavian sagas and tales?!!!Well sometimes I do tell a little about these tales, my dear Lhun, and those who occasionally listen to my idle chatter might catch a thing or two... ;)

Now....am I expected to post the next one? :rolleyes: [/B] We are waiting with bated breath... :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Ooops! I did not see this! :o

But first, let me tell you M'Lord, that I do read your "bits" of information on that so foreign to me folklore and I find it most interesting!

Second, if I am to post a riddle, then I'd better prepare myself better and give you a couple of sleepless nights as well... ;) :p :D

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Chymaera, I will not hazard a guess as this should really go in the thread Who or What am I? This one is for discussion only;)

My humblest apologies Ancalagon:o, but you had not yet started the other thread or at least I saw this thread first:o and no I do not think that my first from the hip attempt really belongs anywhere:)

[Beleg]

My humblest apologies Ancalagon, but you had not yet started the other thread or at least I saw this thread first and no I do not think that my first from the hip attempt really belongs anywhere

Atleast...one can always venture a Guess....

Turin?

[Chymaera]

You got me again Beleg:) but it really was from the hip. I congratulate you on decyphering that nonsense


Now here is the break down on my Poem/riddle Sirion.

I was born in the vale of Ered Wethin,
I passed down the edge of Ard-galen.
Rejecting the North my jouney is southward

Sirion starts at Ethel Sirion on the east slope of Ered Wethin and flows south along the edge of Ard-galen

My brothers all join me in my quest,
with tales of kingdoms from afar.
of Gondolin, and Thingol's realm,
and Túrin Turambar.

The tributaries of Sirion. Dry river and Mindeb river(Gondolin), River Esgaldiun and River Amos (Thingol's realm), and River Teiglin (Túrin Turambar found Nienor Niniel at the Crossing of Teiglin, near where Túrin defeated Glaurung)

In fens I fear I lost my way
I stumbled then I fell
but throught the gate I finally passed
to reach the light of day.

The Fens of Sirion, and Falls of Sirion, and the Gates of Sirion.

At last I reached the Willow lands
my journey almost done.
The sea, the sea it waits for me
My Lord Ulmo at last is found.

Sirion flows through Nan-tathren (the Land of the Willows) and into the sea.

[Lhunithiliel]

Having the time of your life trying to guess my riddle. boys? :p :D

Anc, don't you now start smoking again while trying to solve the riddle! :p

Common! It is not that difficult and one or two of you were very close!
You just have to read the words. I have said it all there!

[Chymaera]

All are welcome here Elendil3119 this is too good not to share.:)

Who knows you might be right!;)

Only Lhun knows for sure. I can't even think of anything else. good luck to all who fall into Lhun's web :D

[Idril]

Arghhh.... This.. is...driving...me ...crazy!

Don't know about Anc smoking again - everytime I look at it - I feel the need....:D

[Chymaera]

You must be strong Idril

I am sure that the fault is in the verse:D :p

What gets me is even her hints are in verse adding insult to injury. :(

[Arvedui]

I understand your feelings.
*Ponders whether or not to add Lhun to his ignore-list*:D

[Chymaera]

Lhun is not one who can be ignored easily.

I am sure that it come from her wraith-like powers to bend mens minds ;) :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, my Lord!
Have I now become a persona non-grata?! :(
Ah! But why... Wraiths have always been that way...

But please, Chymaera, Arvedui, Idril, I am not trying to insult you or anything... :eek:
I'm just ...playing....:rolleyes:

I wonder...am I allowed to give more hints?

OK - here is some mor DIRECT help:
NOT spiders (they're my "sisters" )
NOT Balrogs (they're my "brothers")
NOT Sauron (he is my Father/Mother/Master)
NOT mortals or elves (they're my monions, whose minds and flesh I can control and devour)

AND!!!!!!
I was taken down by light not by hand.

Well? :confused:

[Arvedui]

Did you see the reply from that Elendil fellow?
He suggested Evil or Darkness.

[Lhunithiliel]

I did, but he is wrong to suggest that my character is not "material" He IS! How then would he bring destruction? Devour flesh?... :eek:

My character IS material.

[Idril]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Oh, my Lord!
Have I now become a persona non-grata?! :(
Ah! But why... Wraiths have always been that way...

But please, Chymaera, Arvedui, Idril, I am not trying to insult you or anything... :eek:
I'm just ...playing....:rolleyes:


hehe, so are we - that is such a good riddle, arghh!! - I was dreaming of it last night:D

[Walter]

Dreaming of Middle-earth? What a crazy thing... :p

I dreamt of Eressea...

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel OK - here is some mor DIRECT help:
NOT spiders (they're my "sisters" )
NOT Balrogs (they're my "brothers")
NOT Sauron (he is my Father/Mother/Master)
NOT mortals or elves (they're my monions, whose minds and flesh I can control and devour)

AND!!!!!!
I was taken down by light not by hand.

Well? :confused: [/B]Well the problem is that there either exist some misconceptions or Lhun is purposely choosing a very misleading word-set.

If Balrogs are the "brothers" and Ungoliant is a "sister" it ought to be a spirit of the order of a Maia (though there is room for debate concerning Ungoliant). But unfortunatley Sauron is unable to create those, hence he cannot be really considered Father/Mother.

According to - my understanding of - logic, hence it cannot possibly be a "spirit" or a "creature". That was why I guessed the One Ring (despite the fact that there already would be some contradictions as to how someone/something can be a "brother"/"sister" without being of the same category)

It cannot be an "item" either because as such it cannot get to "the Void" (at least not as long as the creation exists)

Next problem: It has been "destroyed" - or at least sort of - by light . Here "darkness" or "evil" comes to my mind, but that certainly cannot join Sauron in the Void for 1) IMO Sauron - unlike Melkor - didn't get there after he was destroyed and 2) the "darkness" or "evil" within Eä must be something different than the "darkness" of the void, 3) "darkness" (even if considerd evil per se it must be evil in the Boethian sense: "absence of light") cannot be "Master" of anything or anybody and 4) darkness (per se or in the sense of "evil") did not cease to exist when Sauron was destroyed...

So - to sum it up, Lhun - you've lost me with your riddle, my imagination has come to its confines here, I shall just wait for the solution to come out and then either start worrying about my lack of imagination or start analyzing where my logic went astray...

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, I guess, now that the character of my riddle has been guessed, I shall have to give some explanations.
......though Walter has literally thrown me into confusion myself about whether or could I have misled you....

If so, I ask you all for mercy!:(
Yet.....I think I did not.

Let's see.

So:

"The Dark Lord was my Father.
The Dark Lord was my Mother.
The Dark Lord was my Master.
And born I was to bring grief and disaster.

The dungeons deep and the caverns vast
my halls were, where I was to last.
But hungry I grew for beauty and blood
and came out in the lit open world.

Its fields and its woods,
its skies and deep rivers
I conquered with lust
And my name all whispered and shivered.

And valiant heroes and kings of that world
Came challenging ME – the Master of Death!
And death was what I gave for reward
to those who dared stand in my path.

And minions many I held in my power
Their flesh and minds I mastered or devoured
to my desire. With their fates I played as I pleased
for words I had always found at ease
to enslave my foes or my servants to death!"
***
Up untill this point I described a dragon - a flying dragon.
The words in red point out to it IMO.

Then, in order to specify which dragon in particular, I put this:

"But gone now I am! The black Master of Death
fell dead and defeated – but not by a hand!

By the light I was beaten, to the light a battle I lost! "
Here was the strongest hint and at first I had written a "star" instead of "light" But then I thought that if I was to leave the "star"-word, it'd have been too easy to guess, so I changed to "light". And this extract I quoted again as a hint.
For Black Ancalagon was defeated by Earenil = the "Evening-star and Morning-star (=Venus) " (credits to TolkienWiki knowledge-base).


Then I put this:

"And the Dark Lord – my Father
The Dark Lord- my Mother
The Dark Lord – my Master
I joined in the Void."

I admit here I speculated a bit, based on an existing speculative opinion about the origin of dragons, being creatures made out from the Eagles, which in their turn are often thought of as spirits from Manwe's host. And being a spirit, but already - from the host of Evil, I suggested Ancalagon's spirit would have returned to the Void where it once had come from.
I let myself this wild speculation, because I was sure that the above words would have clearly pointed out to a dragon, so such a speculative assumption could do no harm to guessing the riddle.

In my next posted "hints" I tried to draw your attention to some facts that were pointing out to dragons and I tried to exclude the suggestions about Balrogs, spiders....and I thought that after:

OK - here is some mor DIRECT help:
NOT spiders (they're my "sisters" )
NOT Balrogs (they're my "brothers")
NOT Sauron (he is my Father/Mother/Master)
NOT mortals or elves (they're my monions, whose minds and flesh I can control and devour)"

...the answer would come out that I was speaking of dragons. From there it was one step only to guess that it was Ancalagon, for he was beaten by "light" = "star"and not by a hand.

I even "bugged" Anc, trying to draw your attention to his name! :p

Now, some of you suggested the "One Ring", but the whole first part of the riddle spoke about a living breathing creature, an evil creature ready to kill and destruct. The One Ring - though powerfull enough, had somewhat "other" powers - not that "brutal"

Well? :o

Did I melead you? :confused:

[Arvedui]

Did you mislead us?
Yes! Because ithrynluin answered "Glaurung or Ancalagon" rather early on.

grumble - grumble :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Ah, Arvedui, my King, but Ithy did not chose one of them.
And if I had said "yes" - "yes" to which one would it have been?:confused:

Please, people, do not hate me that much!
:o :( :( :(

[Arvedui]

Hate you? Au contrare.
It was a great verse, and it surely made us think. A lot!

I am already looking forward to your next attempt.:)

[Walter]

Sauron the Father/Mother/Master of Ancalagon?

Ancalagon the brother of the Balrogs and Ungoliant?

Ancalagon joining Sauron in the Void?

Ancalagon taken down by light?

Oh dear!

No wonder I was dead stuck!

P.S.: But yes, the "taken down by light" was somewhat misleading..." ;)

[Idril]

Whew! am I glad thats over - that riddle was really eating away at me:confused: . But I don't get it, Itchy named Ancalagon, but you then saidI still hold you in my spell!
There is only one who could almost tell
and who came close to my renowed name.

following on from that, I disregarded Anc from that point:(

[Inderjit S]

The only thing that made sense, for me, was Ancalgon's coming back, which was predicted by Andreth in the Athrabeth and later re-iterated in the Problem of Ros. But that whole sister brother father thingy-VERY CONFUSING

[Walter]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
The only thing that made sense, for me, was Ancalgon's coming back, which was predicted by Andreth in the Athrabeth and later re-iterated in the Problem of Ros. But that whole sister brother father thingy-VERY CONFUSING I must've missed that part in the riddle, but then again it would've had to be Turin slaying the dragon, I think...

Aaah, well let's move on to the next one...

Who's gonna post that, ithryn or you?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
Sauron the Father/Mother/Master of Ancalagon?

Ancalagon the brother of the Balrogs and Ungoliant?

Ancalagon joining Sauron in the Void?

Ancalagon taken down by light?

Oh dear!

No wonder I was dead stuck!

P.S.: But yes, the "taken down by light" was somewhat misleading..." ;)
All right! All right! :mad:
Blame it on me!
The name of Sauron I mistakengly put in that final hint instead of Morgoth... But in the riddle itself, it WAS the "Dark Lord" who is considered to be the right creator of Ancalagon .
CHECK THIS OUT!!!!!!! (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Ancalagon)
And I don't see why I can't call the Balrogs or Ungoliant siblings to Ancalagon! Yes, they were - creatures created by the Evil, creatures to bring disaster and demolition and death... Yes, they were brothers and sisters in EVIL.
As for Ancalagon joining his creator in the Void ..... I already explained that. And in fact it was not the most important point in the riddle!
Besides, CHECK THIS OUT !!!!!!!!! (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?The__Origin__of__Dragons)

And yes! Ancalagon was taken down by "light" - the light of Eärendil in his flying ship Vingilot.

So... OK! Blame it on me now for having given you wrong facts!
I still don't think I have misled you!:mad:

And Inder, if that was so 'confusing"...how could you then recognize Ancalagon, FGS!? ;)

[Idril]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
So... OK! Blame it on me now for having given you wrong facts!
I still don't think I have misled you!:mad:

No one thinks you misled us on purpose, I guess it comes down to interpretation of the material. It was a wonderful riddle and verse and had us all well & truly scratching our heads, and 'thinking' really hard.:D

I look forward to your next effort:).

[Walter]

Actually, Lhun, I don't think that you purposely misled us, I believe you, when you say you mistook Sauron for Morgoth and hold dragons for "siblings" of Balrogs and Ungoliant.

What I've been trying to explain in my former posts, was my path of thoughts and why I was stuck with your riddle.

And I have to admit I still don't see quite through. If you consider dragons spirits from outside why Melko can then be their father/mother is beyond my comprehension (because he cannot have created those), and if they arent, how then can they join Melko in the Void (remember Melko was the only one who was "seen outta the doors" of Eä prematurely, all other spirits in the Ainur category were bound within until its end). But the ways I apply logic to such riddles rather than just letting my "fantasy" flow freely, is MY problem, not yours, I'm not putting any blame on you for this...

Now let's calm down again and move on to the next riddle.

[Lhunithiliel]

Walt: If you consider dragons spirits from outside why Melko can then be their father/mother is beyond my comprehension (because he cannot have created those), and if they arent, how then can they join Melko in the Void (remember Melko was the only one who was "seen outta the doors" of Eä prematurely, all other spirits in the Ainur category were bound within until its end).
I admit it, Master Walt. ;)
BUT!!!!!
I take Melkor as "Father/Mother/Master" of dragons in the way that even the assumption of them being "good" spirits is true, HE was the one to twist them into evil spirits.
Besides, (though I now can't find the exact quote) Melkor came to Middle-earth accompnaied by a host of his "squires" = lesser spirits.
However, I take him as a creator of the dargons in the only one understanding - he created evil creatures, and the dragons were some of the most ferrocious. He could not create in the sense Eru did - he could only use and twist and mar the existing. But isn't it another form of "creation"? ;)

Now, about Ithy's mentioning Ancalagon - I have already given my answer. Yes! He was so close! Yet he just did NOT chose! He said Glaurung OR Ancalagon... I had to wait until he or someone else gave one name.


Uf! Boy, I have never thought that could turn into such a discussion! :eek:

If I ever dare post another riddle, I'll give you sth. less confusing. I promise! :D

[Inderjit S]

And Inder, if that was so 'confusing"...how could you then recognize Ancalagon, FGS!?

I was like Walter confused about some of the topics in it. Though you have now explained it.

As I said, the reference to him 'coming back' the only evil creatures credited with 'coming back' were him and Morgoth. Also the point of being throw down by the light, again this could apply to Morgoth or Ancalagon, as Morgoth was chased away by Arien's light when he tried to ravish her and forced to flee by Earendil's light in the Dagorath-but he wasn't killed. Ancalagon was.

Oh dear it's time for me to post a poem.
:( It will be about as 'good' as my last one. In other words not very.

[Ithrynluin]

But I did say Ancalagon in my previous post:

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Hmm...one of the Dragons - Glaurung or Ancalagon?

I didn't say only Ancalagon if that's what you mean. :D

But it doesn't matter. I'm not very good with coming up with my own riddles anyway. :rolleyes:

[Ancalagon]

Is there a discussion thread associated with this or is it a free for all?

[Idril]

Yes, it's here http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11694&perpage=15&pagenumber=3 .

Maybe Itchy can shifty these sideways:).

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

If I ever dare post another riddle, I'll give you sth. less confusing. I promise! :D [/B]

No, you will not!
It was a very good riddle!!!!

Don't you dare giving something less difficult if it's you again later.:)

[Lhunithiliel]

Hehe!
And then ...what?!
Let you 'crucify" me again!

But....we'll live and see! ;) :D

Common, Ithy, Indy....???:confused:

[Ithrynluin]

Pah, no fair...I tipped Inder off. He couldn't have done it without my enlightening comment. :rolleyes: :D

And Lhun, it was a nice riddle!

P.S. I moved some posts from the other thread in here, so as to prevent Anc from being grumpy. :D

[Inderjit S]

Pah, no fair...I tipped Inder off. He couldn't have done it without my enlightening comment.

Tipped me off? Gah! I have already explained my reasonings. Why would I want to re-iterate a answer that has already been given? :confused: :p

Just though I'd explain my riddle:

First to wake I was

Durin was the first of all the Dwarf fathers to wake, at Gundabad.

And long I wondered alone

He was the only one who wasn't given a mate by Aule. I think there is a reference to his wandering alone in Gimli's Song in FoTR.

No name have I that is known amongst mortal men

I though this line and the one below may cause some confusion. Of Dwarves and Men (HoME 12) talks about NO Khudzdul name had ever been given to a foreign race.

Yet befittingly they named me 'king'......

'Durin' was mannish (Or whichever tounge the Marachian tribes of Rhovanion used, early Adunic possibly, since the latter House of Hador was a group of Marachians who entered Beleriand and Aduinac was derived from the language of Hador, though in the Published Silmarillion Tolkien mentions how the royal house of Hador, and I think the rest of Dor-lomin used Sindarin, though they still kept their old tounge. Like the Noldor using Sindarin and keeping Quenya, perhaps).

Though, as C.T, notes Durin was a name translated from Old Norse and a 'translation'.

[Chymaera]

Would it not be better if the person who has a poem ready to post just post it. Unless the person who guess the last poem correctly has a poem ready.

Does that make sense. Only one poem at a time but hopefully a new poem would be on-line quickly for the next round.

That way the correct guesser is not stressed out by the pressure of having to produce a poem.

The guesser would have the option to post or yield the floor to another.

[Elendil3119]

Is it legal to use a poem/riddle from somewhere else, or does the correct guesser have to make up his/her own?

[Chymaera]

I think a little originallity is what we are looking for.

I am sure that you could come up with a very good riddle with not too much effort.:)

[chrysophalax]

Right now I'm trying desperately NOT to pull my face off...RRRRRRRRRRR, Turgon!

[Turgon]

'One within One' the Elf-king says,

That was my feeble attempt at a clue, the Elf-king was me, Turgon, and 'One within One' was a book within a book. I guess the clue was harder than the riddle huh?

:eek:

[Lhunithiliel]

My first thought was "the Red book"... But then I said..."No, it can't be ..."
I guess, I should learn to follow my instincts and first thoughts... :p Too much thinking and reasoning leads to greater confusion!

Well done Nom! :D