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Ithrynluin
05-13-2003, 01:24 AM
This is a one on one debate between BlackCaptain and Elendil3119.

The question is 'Was Boromir evil' - let's see how they go about it, especially the one who will defend the 'Boromir was evil' stance.

Good luck and good debating!

BlackCaptain
05-13-2003, 01:45 AM
Boromir WAS Evil
BlackCaptain

Boromir WAS NOT Evil
Elendil3119

Just for everyone's info

Elendil3119
05-15-2003, 02:35 AM
Opening statement:

Was Boromir evil? In a word, no. He simply succumbed to the lure of the Ring, and was taken by a momentary fit when he tried to take the Ring from Frodo. Boromir was a proud man, but he simply wanted the best for his country in distress. I am interested, BC, to hear your arguments, and I will eagerly await your post.

BlackCaptain
05-15-2003, 03:30 AM
Well It's quite simple... Evil, by definition, is being Moraly bad or wrong. Also, causing ruin, injury, or pain. Boromir, caused ruin, injury, and pain upon himself. That would make him evil. But that's all technical, but strong techincal points.

Yes, Boromir was taken by the Ring. Yes, Boromir was a great man. Yes, it was the Rings fault that Boromir tried to kill Frodo. But, the bottom line, is that Boromir did try to kill Frodo, knowing how much depended on Frodo's survival. It doesnt matter that the Ring made Boromir an evil person, it matters that the Ring made Boromir evil.

So besides that major techincality with the 'causing ruin, injury, or pain' argument, the 'The Ring Made Boromir a bad person, even if it was only temporarily' arguement can also be looked at.

Elendil3119
05-16-2003, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by BlackCaptain
Well It's quite simple... Evil, by definition, is being Moraly bad or wrong. Also, causing ruin, injury, or pain. Boromir, caused ruin, injury, and pain upon himself. That would make him evil. But that's all technical, but strong techincal points.
First of all, let's clearly define "evil". Webster says:
1. a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a man of evil reputation>
This is the definition that we are debating. Was Boromir morally and inherently bad? No, he was not. He failed morally when he tried to take the Ring from Frodo, but it was not such a failure as to indicate a completely corrupt character. Even Frodo was overcome by the Ring at the Cracks of Doom! He endangered the whole future of Middle-earth, but I'm sure that we would agree that Frodo was not completely "evil". He failed once, as did Boromir. After all, Boromir did repent and redeem himself in the end, did he not?

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
Yes, Boromir was taken by the Ring. Yes, Boromir was a great man. Yes, it was the Rings fault that Boromir tried to kill Frodo. But, the bottom line, is that Boromir did try to kill Frodo, knowing how much depended on Frodo's survival.

So besides that major techincality with the 'causing ruin, injury, or pain' argument, the 'The Ring Made Boromir a bad person, even if it was only temporarily' arguement can also be looked at.
Now, am I just confused or did Boromir only try to take the Ring from Frodo, not kill him. The Ring did not make Boromir a completely evil person. What the Ring did was essentially make him go out of his mind for a short period of time. It did not make him completely morally evil and corrupt, as you seem to think.

BlackCaptain
05-16-2003, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by Elendil3119
First of all, let's clearly define "evil". Webster says:
[b]1. a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a man of evil reputation>
This is the definition that we are debating.
There's more than one definition to a word. Granted, you posted two, but theres more than two in many situations also.


Originally posted by Elendil3119 Now, am I just confused or did Boromir only try to take the Ring from Frodo, not kill him. The Ring did not make Boromir a completely evil person. What the Ring did was essentially make him go out of his mind for a short period of time. It did not make him completely morally evil and corrupt, as you seem to think.

Yes, exactly. The Ring drove him to go out of his mind and take the Ring from Frodo. You're right, not kill. This would make him temporarily evil, would it not? The Ring had to be destroyed. That was the whole quest to save ME. Boromir knew that. But he still tried to stop this anti-evil quest. Which would make him evil, even if it was only for a short period of time. Hitler probly wasn't born an evil person. He was turned evil though, probly by the influence of his parents. It's possible to not be evil for however long a time and still be an evil person, for no matter how long. The time that he was an evil person shouldn't matter. He was evil when he tried to take the Ring. The question was:

Was Boromir Evil?

He was at one point. Was can be applied to any point in the past, so repenting or not, he was evil at one point.

And I know that Boromir wasn't completely morraly evil and corrupt. But he was some moraly evil and corrupt, which makes him an at least somewhat evil person, and being a somewhat happy person for example, still makes you a happy person, no matter how much.

Elendil3119
05-17-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by BlackCaptain
And I know that Boromir wasn't completely morraly evil and corrupt. But he was some moraly evil and corrupt, which makes him an at least somewhat evil person, and being a somewhat happy person for example, still makes you a happy person, no matter how much.
Good. Debate over. ;) Boromir was not completely evil, which is the topic we are/were debating.

BlackCaptain
05-19-2003, 03:57 AM
No, I could be kind of happy that I got a B on my test, I'd still be happy. Did you hear the happy part? The question wasn't ''Was Boromir completely evil?". Nope, it was "Was Boromir evil?".

Heck, I'm evil. I don't clean my room, and still expect allowance. Now is that morraly right? No! I should clean my room and then ask for allowance! And Boromir was even evil on a greater scale! Yes, the Ring caused him to try and stop Frodo from acheiving his quest. It caused him to be morraly wrong. IT CAUSED HIM TO BE EVIL!

Elendil3119
05-20-2003, 05:17 AM
Does commiting one evil act make you morally corrupt, even for a time? Evilness is always in the act, and never in the character. Boromir's act was evil, but his character was not tainted.

BlackCaptain
05-20-2003, 09:25 PM
Like you said, Boromir's act was evil. You are what you do. Melkor had a ton of evil acts. Yes, I agree, He wasn't evil his whole life. But he was evil during the small time when he tried to take the Ring from Frodo. It was an act that no noble-man of Gondor would do. It was an evil act, and a person's actions reflect the person.