Debating Tournament: Guild of Eruhíni Debate Team

[Aulë]

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10805

The 2003 TTF Debating Tournament is almost here!!!
The above thread is the discussion thread for the tournament, and if you wish to add something to what you think should happen in the tournament, please go make yourself heard.

OK, here's the deal.
The Guild of Elves are going to be forming a team with the Guild of Dwarves for the tournament.

Currently, 2 GoD debators have signed up, But we'll need at least another 3 or 4 debators from the GoE.

Now, the first Debate starts on Sunday, so we need people to sign up quickly.
Please, please, please, please, please come support your guild and sign up!!


~Guild of Dwarves/Elves Debate Team~

-The_Swordmaster
-Gamil Zirak
-Bethelarien
-Glorfindel1187
-Ledreanne313
-Omnipotent_elf

[Bethelarien]

This is a thread specifically dedicated to discussing the upcoming debate, and the debate team. As of right now, I am the only GoE debate team member, so we need at least one more member from GoE. Experience is not necessary. We just need another person.

Address any comments/questions/ concerns about the debate tournament/the joint team here.

[omnipotent_elf]

I'll join

or is this a debate of GoE vs GoD


i thought i heard someone mention it was a GoE/GoD team, and as such, i qualify for both guilds :D

[Maeglin]

Hello my inferiors:D ....... oh Omnipotent one it's a GoE/GoD joint debate team, so you were right about that. And I'm on it too now, due to pressure applied by Aule.:rolleyes:

[Aulë]

I shall be starting the debate now.
Issue your team of 4 before commencing.

This debate shall be held in the OiE Guild.
Here: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11780

[Aulë]

Please be quick about this: Otherwise you may have to forfeit!

Your squad:
-The_Swordmaster
-Gamil Zirak
-Bethelarien
-Glorfindel1187
-Ledreanne313
-Omnipotent_elf


You need to make up a team of four.

[Aulë]

OK, Gamil and Omni won't be debating this round
So the Team is:

-The_Swordmaster
-Bethelarien
-Glorfindel1187
-Ledreanne313

The debate has begun. :D

[Aulë]

OK,
OiE have just posted.
So it's time to make yourselves heard, Swordmaster, Glorfindel, Beth and Ledreanne. :)

[Ancalagon]

Is anybody actually debating against the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil? C'mon, lets be having a response guys, you are more than capable of matching us!

[Bethelarien]

Erm...you sure about that? I've never even debated before. I don't suppose we could have started with an easier question? Cause this one is really hard, and I have no clue how to respond. Any suggestions would be very welcome.

And Anc? Go easy on us, please.

[Aulë]

Well you can blame Maedhros for the topic ;)
And that's just the hand that you've been dealt: you can't change it.
Either start posting, or concede the debate. Ost-in-Edhil would then receive a 5-0 win.

[Beleg]

Erm...you sure about that? I've never even debated before. I don't suppose we could have started with an easier question? Cause this one is really hard, and I have no clue how to respond. Any suggestions would be very welcome.

Well you have to start somewhere and I believe this is the easiest topic you'd find to start with. For anyone who has read the Silmarillion it is just the matter of providing opinions and backing them up with facts. Qutations regarding the topic are many and plenty, and you can easily counter the topic.

If you haven't read the relevant topic then that's another problem.

[Aulë]

Glorf! Beth! Ledre!
I thought that you guys would at least try and participate in the Tournament. This Guild is the only Guild not to do anything in the Tournement, and I'm disappointed in all of you.:(

[Bethelarien]

Dude, chill out. It's not like what's-his-name from GoD is doing anything either. And it's not all that easy, especially since none of the three of us have ever debated. I have no idea what I'm doing, and the people we're up against have debated before and are very good at it.

I'm working on it.

[Ancalagon]

Well done Bethelarien, you posted well and are seemingly debating alone for Guild of Elves and Dwarves, for that you should be commended:) Great start, keep it up!

[Aulë]

Yes, good work Beth. :D
Keep it up

Now I have to start bugging the rest of your team...
*Eyes off Glorf, SM and Ledre* ;)

[Bethelarien]

Alright, I would just like to say...

Where the hell was everyone else?!?

[Aulë]

I don't know....

Here's the Judging thread for the debate: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11904

All team members (Beth, Ledre, Glorf, SM) need to check in.

[Bethelarien]

I'm sorry. That just really ticked me off. If you guys aren't going to debate, don't sign up and then leave others to do all the work. That's just really rude, especially since I have finals and everything else that I'm supposed to be doing. Really rude.

As it stands, though, I won't be here starting tomorrow until next Wednesday, as I'll be visiting relatives in Minnesota and probably won't have access to the Internet. So I really hope there isn't a debate between now and then, because the way it's going, you'll be screwed over majorly.

[Aulë]

OK, we need a team of 4 put forward for the debate against the Outcasts which starts on Sunday.
We also need someone to host the OiE vs. Scholars debate.

Hopefully we can doo better this round :)

[Scatha]

I do believe the OiE vs Scholars debate can be hosted right here.
I'd be happy to do it. :)

[Aulë]

Excellent :)

All you have to do is:

1/ i) Come up with your own topic, and PM it to Maedhros for him to check, OR
ii) PM Maedhros, asking him to give you a topic

2/ Make sure that both Guilds have teams of 4 ready

3/ Start a debate thread in the Ost-in-Edhil Guild on Sunday

4/ Keep an eye on the debate

5/ Select 3 other judges (1 from Periaur, 1 from Outcasts and 1 from Tolkienologists)

6/ Close the debate 7 days after the first active post, and start up a judging thread with a poll.

7/ Report the result in the Tournament thread in Member Announcements

That's all.


OK, now all we need are 4 debators. :)

[Anamatar IV]

Hi, I'm hosting the next debate the Guild of Elves/Dwarves are involved in against the Guild of Outcasts. Could you guys have a team of 4 ready to go by Sunday? Thanks.:)

[Ledreanne313]

I am so sorry! I am so confused with this debate thing and Anamatar is helping me and now reading this thread got me more comfused!

Okay, I thought that when Anamatar PMed me about joining, I would debate in the the topic about the Nazgul and Merry and Eowyn...not this other one! I just want to do the one Anamatar told me about...that's it! Is that possible? If I sign up for one...do I have to be in all of them? Sorry Beth for not joining you. I never thought to look in this thread for it wasn't about the debate I wanted to be in. Since I do not want to do this one...someone else can rake my place...and if I do not take part in this one and can't take part in the one I want...fine. Sorry for that, Beth.

Anne

[Anamatar IV]

Anne, round two, the debate you have agreed to participate in yesterday, is the one about the Witch-King, Eowyn, and Merry, yes.

Speaking of this debate, I have both teams ready and starting the debate.

[Bethelarien]

The other members of my team had better participate this time. That means Ledreanne and Sword_Master need to post sometime soon. Don't worry, I will as well.

Omni (and others), I would ask that from now on, whoever decides to open the debate (when we open) discusses with the rest of the team which side of the debate we'll take. In this case, it would have been easier to debate on Merry's side. So please, check with the rest of us first. Thanks.

[Ancalagon]

Beth, wouldn't you feel more at home back in The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil...back where you belong;)

[Ledreanne313]

Can I withdraw?

[Bethelarien]

Um....no. No, you can't. It's not that difficult, and you'll get better just by posting. It doesn't have to be anything monumental, but at least post something, preferably supporting our side. ;)

Beth, wouldn't you feel more at home back in The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil...back where you belong;)
LOL. Maybe so, Anc. Maybe so.

[Bethelarien]

Hmmm...see, THIS (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11782&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) is how a debate team should really be run.

[Scatha]

I agree with you Beth, that is how a debate team should be run.
Are you interested in picking up the role of Debate-Captain?

As for round three. I am willing to try and support you in it, Beth.

[Ledreanne313]

Yet I wish not to be apart of this. Is there any way I can withdraw?

[Nóm]

Good grief.

First of all, you guys can easily come back and argue that it was Eowyn who was the primary factor.

Second, is this Guild even serious about the tournament?

It is enough to make me want to drop out of it and work with the Debate Guild.

How damned hard is it to get a debate at this forum!?!?!?!

Does no one take me or GoO seriousy? Surely that must be so because we're pretty obviously not feared.

[Scatha]

Whoa, easy there, Nom.


If Anne desperately wants out, is there anyone having a problem with me picking this up?

[Ledreanne313]

Sheesh. If it really makes you that made, I won't quit! Yet, I really do not want to and would rather not if it is possible. I terribley sorry.

Anne

[Elendil3119]

Maybe a little more thought should have been put into this matter before you guys decided to participate in the tournament! Why did anyone volunteer in the first place if they didn't plan to participate in the actual debates?!?! The only one here who seems to have any courage or interest is Beth, and I commend her for her efforts. My advice to the rest of you: participate, or resign the Guild from the tournament. Those are your two choices.

[Scatha]

Need I remind the gentlemen, that this is the first time anyone of us entered the debates and a little more patience would be welcomed.

Secondly, you cannot make demands for the entire guild to drop out of the tournament, because one of it's members decides not to wish to participate.

I do agree that we have some trouble here, but not one for the two of you to decide on. ( Nom and Elendil) Should it be needed to resign from the debate, we will contact Maedhros or a Mod to accomplish that.

Now kindly stop attacking this guild. :mad:

[Ancalagon]

Fear not Scatha, not all is an attack on the Guild, nor the individuals within it. If Anne feels unable to contend, then she should not be ridiculed nor brow-beaten into participating. Debates are quite frightening, especially when opposing those who are well travelled in such circles. My concern is only that the entire Guild should be supporting those who can and will make the effort. To get behind the team, congratulate them on their efforts for representing the Guild.

I do not agree with talk of withdrawal from the tournament, for you have good members, prepared to work hard and who know their limitations. If one feels unready for a debate, then they should be free to step aside and allow another into their place. But, you must get the Guild working as a unit, supporting each other and taking pride in your best efforts. Personally, I am proud of the attempts to become involved so far, it just needs more work and more support. You have my support and my respect for what it is worth;)

[Scatha]

Thanks Anc, I appreciate the support. (and you know you already had my respect) :)


The debates can be quite frightening, especially to first time participants. We see quotes being sprawled all over the place, while most of us have only read the books in our native language. This is one of the reasons that the debates can be quite scary.


I already volunteered to take Anne's place in the debate, since she is uncomfortable with it.

[Bethelarien]

Scatha, your help is very much welcome. Anne, just so you don't think I'm angry with you (which I'm not for any reason), I simply meant you can't drop out, as we need four members on our team. But since Scatha is willing to switch with you, that is perfectly fine.

Are you interested in picking up the role of Debate-Captain?
LOL, Scatha, that role was already sort of thrown at me. ;)

[Nóm]

Didn't mean my last post to be an attack on your guild. I'm just deeply offended by my failure to get certain debate challenges taken serious by anyone that I wanted to debate against - which is why I ranted. But this:
Second, is this Guild even serious about the tournament?

Was a genuine question, not an accusation.

[Ledreanne313]

Thank you Scatha for taking my place! I am very sorry for the confusion! Now I feel bad...

[Scatha]

It's ok Nom, now lets get you that debate shall we?

Anne, it's ok. You just don't feel comfy with it, perhaps another time.

[Bethelarien]

Genuine question for my team:

Does anyone mind me officially filling the role of Debate Captain for our team?

[Scatha]

On the contrary, you have my full blessing for it.

[omnipotent_elf]

by the way, sorry for my team if I picked the harder side of the argument. At the time i thought it was easier.......


and no i dont mind, as long as i actually GET NOTIFIED about things, if i ampart of the team now. Am I?

[Ancalagon]

Don't worry Omnipotent, you are doing a sterling job defending your position and working much better as a team;) Keep it up, some of us are interested in you and want the GoE&D to do well after having such a difficult start to the tournament!

It's nice to have friends in low places, like me:)

[Beleg]

It's nice to have friends in low places, like me

Look who is saying! :p Generally if Anc says you are doing good, you are doing good.:)

By the way Owe, You can't say that you have choosen the wrong side of the topic...You people seem to be doing okay...:)
Keep up your good work and remember people are always there, lurking off in the far corners, but always keeping an eye on what is happening in this prestigious part of TTF. :)

Besides G0D is also supposed to be a part of the Debating team (but due to the lack of advent of its members It isn't.) so I should be rooting for you guys....

[Bethelarien]

Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf
by the way, sorry for my team if I picked the harder side of the argument. At the time i thought it was easier.......


and no i dont mind, as long as i actually GET NOTIFIED about things, if i ampart of the team now. Am I?

Omni, there's nothing to apologize for. You're doing wonderfully, especially for your first debate.

And I apologize for not notifying you. Things have been crazy, and since I wasn't officially the captain, I didn't know if I needed to or not. But you are certainly a part of this team, and you will certainly be notified in the future. Again, my apologies.

[Bethelarien]

Well, I suppose I can put up our closing post tonight. Unless someone else *cough*Scatha*cough* wants to.;)

[Scatha]

Nopes, the ballpark is yours, Beth. You are our Captain and earned that priviledge by a long shot. :)

For once we did a good job as a team, I'm proud of you all.

[Bethelarien]

Same here. Simply beautiful.

I'll post our closing post later tonight.

[Bethelarien]

Crisis averted. Last night my mom turned off the computer before I could get on. I freaked out! Of course, she doesn't know that I'm on message boards, so I couldn't tell her that I needed to post a closing argument for a debate. But in the end I convinced her how important it was that I "check my email", and so I was able to post.

Whew. That was close.

Thanks to Scatha and Omni for participating. The debate went much better this time!:D

[Scatha]

My pleasure Beth, I had fun doing it. :)

Thanks to you for leading us through it.
Perhaps we can even do better next round? ;)

[Aulë]

No,
You're not allowed to do better next round ;)
It's against the mighty Periaur. You don't stand a chance ;) Might as well forfeit right now....;) :p

j/k j/k :D

[omnipotent_elf]

*throws a cream pie at Aule*
:p
round one, US :D:D

thanx for letting me debate. Can i count on being in the next one?

[Bethelarien]

Omni, I would love to have you on the team for next round. And Scatha, too, of course.

Owly: Beware! The GoE team is getting better by huge leaps and bounds! Just imagine what we'll be like next time!

[The_Swordmaster]

Firstly I would like to apologize for not helping the team in the current debate. Secondly I want to congraduate our team and our captain Bethelarien for leading us well. I do hope to be able to particapate in this next debate. I feel I will be able to so you will have another member helping you.

[Bethelarien]

Well, that would be very nice of you, Swordmaster, as you are a part of this team. Your participation would be very much welcomed.

ROUND 3 (15th - 21st June)
Periaur vs. GoE/GoD (Host: Tolkien)

So the next debate starts the 15th in the Guild of Tolkienology forum. Our team will be as follows:

Bethelarien(captain)
The_Swordmaster
Scatha(vice-captain)
Omnipotent_elf

This will stand unless someone has a major problem with it. SM, I really hope you actually participate this time, your help is much looked for.

Being the captain, I'd like to...er...suggest something. Very strongly suggest. I don't care if someone else does the opening post. But please, PLEASE discuss the matter with the rest of us first. Now in this round, we don't get to choose which side we debate. But whoever would like to open for us (again--not necessarily me, as I can't do everything), I would ask that we have a brief discussion about points we would like to make, either in this thread or via PM.

If you have any questions or comments, by all means, address them.

[Aulë]

The debate will be held in the Guild of Periaur, not the GoT.

[Scatha]

I concur with you, Beth. Let us discuss matters before we make a case in the debate, preferrably through PM, since there's a lot of folks reading this, even though it is the thread for OUR discussion of the debates. (*glances at Aule* :p )

[Beleg]

Greeting's Elves/Dwarves.
I would like you to submit your teams in this (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12114) thread.
The topic shall be disclosed on the 15th.
Looking forward towards hosting a nice, clean debate.

[The_Swordmaster]

I will submit the names of our team in that thread. Also their is now a new section on the TTF main page for the Tournament. It will not be hosted in guilds anymore.

I will apologize again to both guilds for my absence. I will help the team this time.

[Scatha]

Great, Swordmaster, we can surely use a fourth voice in there this time around. :)

[Beleg]

The topic has been posted.

[Scatha]

Thanks Beleg.
:)

[Scatha]

With Periaur determining their stance on the topic provided, this is going to be a tough call.

Manwe decided to keep the knowledge for the coming of Man a secret to the elves. The question is whether this was wise.

Now good arguements can be made for both sides, but getting the quotes right is going to be a lot of digging.

[Scatha]

Ok, the Periaur made their stance, stating that Manwe was wrong. Who is going to make the first reply?

[Bethelarien]

Scatha, you may if you wish. I am rather busy right now, so I would appreciate it if you would. But if you don't have time, that's fine. Perhaps we could get some ideas going?

[The_Swordmaster]

Is Scatha going to make this opening post? I thought we will be in the middle of this debate by now.

[archery master]

i wish to join the debate team for the elves i can be a great addition to the team

[Bethelarien]

I thought we would, as well, SM. If he doesn't open today, I'll try to tomorrow.

Archery Master, you must be a member of either the Guild of Elves or the Guild of Dwarves to be part of the debate team. You aren't a GoE member (I don't know about the GoD), so I suggest you join a guild first. Then read over the rules of the guild and the debate, and then you can be a part of the debate team if you wish.

[Scatha]

Sorry for the delay guys, I had a very busy week so far on my return to work, plus some minor problems with the computer, which prevented me from being on the boards yesterday. The post is up.

[The_Swordmaster]

Archery Master is not a GoD member either Beth. You can be on the team only if you join atleast one of the two guilds.

Thank you Scatha for making the opening post. Now it's time to get into this debate.

[Scatha]

My pleasure, swordmaster.

Now let us go pick that periaur guild apart, shall we? ;)

[Scatha]

People, I sure could use a hand in the debate against the periaur, as I can not carry it alone. My ability to come up with english quotes from the books is very limited, as I only have them in dutch.

[Scatha]

Good post Omnipotent_Elf, thanks for joining in. :)

[Bethelarien]

Sorry about the delays, Scatha. It's been crazy around here. My post will be up this afternoon.

[Bethelarien]

*in a Southern Belle accent* My post is up, gentlemen. Reading the History of Middle-earth pays off.

*normal voice*

So....who wants to volunteer to post the closing argument, when the time comes? I will not be able to, as I have to be getting on a bus at 5:45 AM tomorrow morning, and I will be gone all week. So...Scatha, our new fearless guildmaster? Omni the brave? SM the bold? Who will it be?

Just FYI, a closing post should be a summary of all our arguments, and then any last tidbits we want to throw in at the last minute.

[Scatha]

Unless someone volunteers to do it, I guess I'll have to do so.

Thanks for the post, even though you are busy, dear. :)

Don't worry, we won't make a mess of it, while you are gone. ;)

[Scatha]

Closing statement has been placed, I hope I did the team justice. :)

[Bethelarien]

That was a wonderful closing statement, Scatha dear. I doubt I could have done better.

And yet we still are getting our butts kicked. Something needs to change.

[Scatha]

Thanks dear, good to have you back again. :)

Indeed Beth, I think we need to work more closely together.
For the next debate we are the home-team, I think?

We need to determine our stance and line of arguementation in advance of the first post, with all four members of the team. Otherwise I'm afraid we'll get our butts kicked again, even though we are improving. (As said by several people we have debated against)

Any other ideas?

[omnipotent_elf]

I'll not take part
get people into the debate who can have contact with each other a LOT more.
just get the debate going, dont say what your friends have said (i dont know why...thats adding strenght to the argument in my point of view...........,) and look at feedback and do the opposite of what i did :D

[Scatha]

Omni, that is a shame to hear. You never did badly in them and we were happy to have you with us. Are you sure you want to do this?


Beth, do we have a full team ready to go for round 4?
Who will be our fourth member for the debate of round 4?

[Bethelarien]

No, dear Scatha, we don't. The_Swordmaster has yet to participate (grnt), and if Omni's leaving (PLEASE DON'T GO, OMNI!), then we're short. Again.

Omni, I agree totally with Scatha. You have never done badly. And we need you. Seriously, we need you. Please don't leave.

[Nóm]

Hello guys,

I see you're having some trouble with the team. I hope Omnipotent_elf does decide to debate some more. He did really well in that Eowyn/Witch-king debate, even if the opener wasn't super strong.

I am wondering which one of you will be hosting this round's debate between the Periaur and GoO? I think we're all ready whenever you are.

I posted about this in the main tournament discussion thread.

[Scatha]

Thanks for the heads up, Nom. I'll try and cover this asap.


Beth, if need be, can the two of us cover this round by ourselves?
(I hope it won't be needed and omni changes his mind)

[Bethelarien]

We probably could. It wouldn't be much worse than we've been doing lately. ;)

You gonna host that other round, or do you want me to?

[Scatha]

I already picked that round up. Thought that would give you more time to take it easy, dear. :)

[Bethelarien]

Thanks so much for your thoughtfulness, cupcake. :D

[omnipotent_elf]

Ok, i'll debate again...
*sighs*
I really did do awfully......When you find willing participants, i will be the first to drop out...but untill u do i'll debate.

PS: if I hear somebody call someone else a cupcake, i will be forced to practice ultimate frisbee, with a razor disk and their head
(or razor chocolate cookie, whatever you prefer)

[Scatha]

welcome back, Omni. :D

Now let us start debating, shall we?

[Bethelarien]

Yes, let's get started.

PS: Omni, since I'm sick and feeling somewhat benevolent today, I'll ignore that comment about ultimate frisbee. ;)

[Feanorian]

Hello there honorable elves. I have come to these beautiful halls to remind you that the board is yours for the debate we are ready and waiting:D

Thanks.

[Bethelarien]

Eru's gifts to humans. Dying of old age was a better gift than not having predetermined fates in that creepy music thing towards the beginning of time.

All right. Which side are we going to take? I think it would be easier to take this side of it, rather than try to argue the opposite. Other opinions?

[Scatha]

Argueing the opposite might be easy too, since if man had not been given the 'dying of old age', the numenoreans would never have tried to invade aman, which in turn would have lead to a better understanding between Man and Elf.

*just my two cents*

[Bethelarien]

:p So of course you say the opposite. Come on, we have to make a fast decision, guys. Omni? Thoughts?

[Scatha]

Let's try this side of the arguement, and i'll start looking for material to refute my above statement, which is bound to come up.

[omnipotent_elf]

Ok, i dont care what side of the argument...just get an opening post and i'll support it. I dont mind. Again, i find both sides have their points, so i can argue either way. However, i tend to agree with Scatha...

side-note
*readies himself for ultimate frisbee*

he he, ignorence is NOT bliss

[Bethelarien]

Well, if both of you think we should argue the other side, then by all means, let's. Because then it will be easier for the both of you to argue it, and I'll muddle through somehow. ;)

[omnipotent_elf]

umm, could u guys find me some good evidence to support the idea that "the choices" which were given to men only left them
susceptibale and vulnerable.

I have had all my books removed (damn brother lending out tolkiens works without my knowledge...continuing rant......finished), so could u guys help?

[Bethelarien]

Just got back. I'll work on it, Omni. And Scatha, of course. ;)

[Scatha]

As i stated earlier, I have trouble myself coming up with decent quotes, as I only have the books in dutch.

How am I doing so far?

[omnipotent_elf]

hey, at least u have a book :p

and your doing better then they are

[Scatha]

Heh, thanks Omni. :)

I just have a lot of trouble in getting the quotes in english, to use in the debates.

[Bethelarien]

Yes, Scatha my turtledove, you're doing beautifully.

And fortunately for all of us, I have all the Tolkien books (besides the Letters) within my grasp, including, coincidentally, the volume of HoME that what's-his-name (Elendil?) quoted. I just happen to be reading that volume at the moment. *evil laugh* So, I'll be able to come up with some good quotes shortly!

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Bethelarien
what's-his-name (Elendil?)
What's-his-name?! :rolleyes: :D
So, I'll be able to come up with some good quotes shortly!
That'll teach me to give my sources! ;)

[omnipotent_elf]

TURTLEDOVE?!?!?!?!

*throws ultimate frisbee*

coming(into debate) anytime soon beth :p;) ;):rolleyes:

[Bethelarien]

What's-his-name?!
Sorry, Elendil. I mean, What's-his-name.;)

That'll teach me to give my sources!;)
Eh. If you hadn't put it down, I would've asked. And as I'm reading the Debate right now anyway, I was bound to recognize it sooner or later. :p So ha.

Now go away.;)

[Scatha]

Beth dear, I think I have the Letters on my harddrive. If you want them, just PM me the address to mail it to. ;)

[Bethelarien]

Well, pearl of my heart, we're both in luck, as I don't think I need the Letters. But let's keep that option open, shall we?

And don't worry, Omni. I'll enter the debate as soon as I have a good reply. Since I'm working on it now, I should be ready later today. Never fear.

[Scatha]

Beth dear, just holler once you do need them then. :)

As for your entering the debate, we'll fend off the wolves until you do. ;)

btw, just posted there again, may be a shock to them though. :p

[Bethelarien]

Yes, I saw. You know, my jewel, it amazes me how you come up with those answers so quickly. It takes me forever to come up with a good post, as you can see.

Of course, I do use quotes from the books in my posts, and it is looking the stupid things up that takes the most time...

And I dare say, the Scholars don't seem like wolves. More like....big puppy dogs. ;) (I almost hope Elendil is still being nosy and reads that!)

[Scatha]

Rotfl, well spoken, my dearest. :)

[Feanorian]

*peaks head in* we are very nosey*runs*screams like little girl*



we are tiny kittens..:( ...:rolleyes: ...:D

[Scatha]

Whoops, Feanorean peeked in.... now Elendil just might too. ;)

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Bethelarien
And I dare say, the Scholars don't seem like wolves. More like....big puppy dogs. ;) (I almost hope Elendil is still being nosy and reads that!)
Puppy dogs?! Umm, err...just you wait! :p Yep, I'm still hanging around being nosy. :D

[Scatha]

*points at Elendil* See, I told you so. ;)

[Bethelarien]

Note to self: Don't put anything important in this thread, since there are annoyingly nosey people about.

;)

[Scatha]

Whoa Beth, awesome work there, sweetheart. :D

*points at the debate thread*

[Bethelarien]

*wipes sweat from forehead*

Whew! It took a while, but I think it was well worth it!

And thanks for the praise, handsome one.

[Scatha]

My pleasure dearest. Looks like we may finally win one... Omni and I shoot them down, you bring home the bacon. ;)

[omnipotent_elf]

*looks at his pathetic pop-gun, compared to the massive tank Scatha's using*

yeah, we really shot them down :rolleyes: :p

and we better get at least one vote!!!!. If not, it is a conspiracy ;)

*begins to ready the party for when the results of this debate come in*

[Bethelarien]

O fairest vision, and Omni, I'm sorry, but I was too late to post a closing post. The debate ended several hours ago. I'm sorry.

And don't start celebrating yet. ;)
you bring home the bacon
Hmmm...does this imply me cooking? Because I don't know about that....;)

[Scatha]

Heh, i'll cook :)

We never received a time for when the debate would be closed by Yay. Did our opponents make a closing statement?

BTW, there's no judging thread yet, nor was the debate closed, so you still can post that closing statement, according to the rules.

[Bethelarien]

Oh, I thought the debate was to end exactly seven days after the first post, which would have closed it about seven hours ago. Perhaps you'd like to do the honors?

No, YG, didn't say when the debate was to close, just 'sometime' today. The GoS haven't made a closing statement, and there is no judging thread. So I guess we can....

[Scatha]

If you have the time now, please do, as I am at work and cannot.

[Bethelarien]

Okey dokey....but if I get yelled at, it's your fault! ;)

Oh, and thanks for being willing to cook! ;)

[Scatha]

No thanks needed, I love to cook, but you get to do the dishes, I hate doing those. ;) :D

[Bethelarien]

Closing post is up.
but you get to do the dishes
Awww...but I hate doing dishes! On second thought, most beautiful songbird, how about if I help you cook, and Omni can do the dishes!

[Scatha]

As long as I don't have to do them, it's acceptable to me. :D

[Bethelarien]

LOL!

So what do you think? (closing post)

[Elendil3119]

GoS is working on a closing post right now, and it will be a whopper. :cool: If the debate thread gets closed before I can post it (in the next few hours), I will get very mad. ;)

[Scatha]

Beth, the closing post is fine by me, perhaps a bit short, but fine nontheless. :)


Elendil, the best place to get a whopper is at burgerking. :p

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Scatha
Elendil, the best place to get a whopper is at burgerking. :p
I just got back, and boy, lemme tell ya! They sure sold me an oversized one...;) :p

[Scatha]

You should have posted this good througout the debate Elendil, then the outcome would be less narrow. ;)

We'll see what the judging brings. :)

[Elendil3119]

Thanks. :) I had help from Feanorian, so I won't take credit for all the work.

Yes, we shall see...;)

[omnipotent_elf]

sets up party and prepares two banner
one
"we won" ;)
the other
"they cheated";)

only kidding :D

[Scatha]

Well Omni, we're glad you were there to help, now the decision lies in the hands of the judges. :)

[Aulë]

Could the GoE/D please submit a host for the Round 5 Scholars v Outcasts debate.

Ta.

[Bethelarien]

Meh. If I do it, do I have to come up with a topic? Because I'll do it, that part would just be difficult.

[omnipotent_elf]

i guess i could do it.......

anyway i have to rant

Very strong debating from both sides... Feanorian, Elendil, Beth, and Scatha... wonderfully done.

i'm just a ghost i guess..

[Aulë]

Beth- you don't have to come up with the topic if you don't want to.
Just PM Maedhros for one if you can't think of one.

Omni has PMed me his intrest in hosting first, so he can host this debate.

[Bethelarien]

Originally posted by Aulë
Beth- you don't have to come up with the topic if you don't want to.
Just PM Maedhros for one if you can't think of one.

Omni has PMed me his intrest in hosting first, so he can host this debate.

Thbbbbbbbbbbbb. And I was looking forward to it.:mad:

[Aulë]

Well you didn't seem too keen....:rolleyes:

You can host the next one if you want.

[Scatha]

And Aule, aren't the judges supposedly to be impartial of what they believe, but instead vote for the team that provided the best points during the debate? If both sides make equally good points, that a draw should be called for?

If that is the case, then take a peek at the judging post of BlackCaptain in round 4.

[Bethelarien]

Yeah, I was wondering about that, too. The thing is, if we bring up a complaint, he'll still pick the Scholars, just for some lame reason. So we're caught between a rock and a hard place, O vision of the Sun.

[Scatha]

That may be the case Beth, but at least then he would not make the same mistake again.

[Bethelarien]

Still, I don't like it. *sigh* I guess that's all we can do, though, hope he learns from his mistakes.

*brightens up* At least look at it this way: Legolam voted for a draw, so we get half a point! No more 5-0! At least it'll be 4.5-0.5! :D

[Scatha]

True, we'll have to see what the other judges bring and I would love to see Nom's promised comment on thiss debate. :)

[Bethelarien]

Yes, I'm certainly interested in what Nom has to say! This should be good!

And hopefully we'll get another vote or two...maybe? :(

[Bethelarien]

Will you stop jumping around everywhere? Good grief!

[Scatha]

I hope to get one, but I wouldn't mind getting two ;)

At least we made it difficult for the judges this time. ;)

[Scatha]

Jumping, who's jumping???

Oh, you mean I move around the boards too fast?
Well, blame it on my connection, DSL 512. :)

[Bethelarien]

Jumping, who's jumping???

Oh, you mean I move around the boards too fast?
Well, blame it on my connection, DSL 512.
Show-off. :p

And yes, at least we made it difficult. Which means we're improving!:D

[Scatha]

You can say that again, dear. :D

I do hope the offer by GoT is going to be allowed, if not the offer is at least greatly appreciated and should bring both the guilds closer together. :)

[Bethelarien]

Yes, I'm very much impressed by the offer. At the very least, they have our gratitude. It just really amazed me.

And hopefully, they'll see the predicament we're in and allow it.

[Scatha]

That is all we can hope for. Most of the Guilds so far are aware of our predicament and we do have their sympathy and respect for doing what we did. :)

Things can only get better from here. :D

[Bethelarien]

True that. And maybe all that sympathy will give us a vote or two this time? We can only hope.:D

[Scatha]

Whether we get more votes or not, the respect we have gotten by the other guilds in this debate, is worth more then a few measly points. :)

[Bethelarien]

Again, too true. Respect will last much longer than the results of this tournament, especially since we have next year!

Did you die or something?

[Scatha]

Next year is going to be our year. I hope to get together a good team of debators for that.

That was one of the reasons for wanting to put together a mini-debating tournament between the houses, so people will ease into the debates.

[Bethelarien]

Oooh, it's your turn for brilliancy!

[Scatha]

I had thought on starting with topics that concerned mainly the elven race, to raise interest to participate, then gradually mix it with stuff from the other races, etc.

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Bethelarien
Yeah, I was wondering about that, too. The thing is, if we bring up a complaint, he'll still pick the Scholars, just for some lame reason. So we're caught between a rock and a hard place, O vision of the Sun.
I agree that BC's judgement is questionable, but you assume that if he picked the Scholars anyways, it would be for some lame reason?:confused: If you ask for clarification, that's great. But don't accuse him of choosing the side he did for "some lame reason".

[Scatha]

Elendil, he picked the Scholars for a lame reason, that is what I agree on, but mainly did so because he happened to agree with your side of the debate.

Personal belief is not what should decide your vote, but who presented the best case regardless of your opinion.

A judge is to be impartial, if that is something a person cannot do, then he has no place to be judging.

[Feanorian]

Personal belief is not what should decide your vote, but who presented the best case regardless of your opinion.

This is true but in this situation it would not have made much of a decision. He said the actual debating was too close to call so the only other resonable thing would be draw in which case the outcome would not change unless of course our 5th judge gave the same response. However, I do encourage you all to challenge it, it'll help BC personally.

I would also like to thank the Guild of Elves for such a wonderful debate, it was a very good learning expierience. :D

[Scatha]

Feanorian, it was our pleasure as much as it was that of your team. :)

Just for protocol sake, we'll contest that vote.

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Scatha
Elendil, he picked the Scholars for a lame reason, that is what I agree on, but mainly did so because he happened to agree with your side of the debate.

Personal belief is not what should decide your vote, but who presented the best case regardless of your opinion.

A judge is to be impartial, if that is something a person cannot do, then he has no place to be judging.
Agreed. I think that the proper judgement from BC's reasoning would have been a 'draw'.

[Bethelarien]

New topic for our debate is up. This is going to be a tough one, I think, depending on what side GoT chooses.

What think you, o radiant light of the morning? And Omni?

[Scatha]

I think we are in for a rough ride, once again i must add.

[Bethelarien]

Once again? How about, as always? ;) We can handle it, though. Hopefully.

[Scatha]

The opponent is tough enough already, without having to worry about the topic. ;)

[Bethelarien]

As always, you are right, O gleam off the pools of Ivrin. ;)

[Scatha]

Thanks beth, I could give you a necklace with various gems embedded within them, but they'd only be pale compared to the light of ithil within you. :)

*hugs you instead*

[Bethelarien]

*hugs Scatha back*

That was cute. ;)

[Bethelarien]

Their opening post is up. I'll try to come up with one to post tomorrow....wait. I'm getting my license tomorrow...maybe I could post tomorrow night? Unless someone else will do it. Either way, I'll try to post tomorrow.

[omnipotent_elf]

yep
i'll post my arguments soon
and a big thanx to nom for comments

if only she judged our debate

[Scatha]

Dain Ironfoot expressed his interest in joining the debate.
I told him to get his behind in here. ;)


Omni, you simply gotta love Nom. :)

[omnipotent_elf]

a fourth member
YAY

[omnipotent_elf]

ok, i wont do the opening post...(i dont know what you guys want to argue)

but please put in that Frodo did succeed. The ring was destroyed, and in all he did not die. This was a success

[Scatha]

Omni, feel free to post the opening, after all we are not the team that gets to choose their side. We'll take it from there. :D

[omnipotent_elf]

I'll try
last attempt of mine wasnt so good tho...

*5 mins later*
posted
this will be the last chance i will get on this debate
sorry guys
hope it helps

[Scatha]

So far you always have done just fine, Omni. :)

Whether or not we change tactic along the way, it gives the rest of us a start.

[Bethelarien]

Sorry I wasn't able to post. I'll post my first thoughts hopefully tomorrow. My excuse--I was on the Internet "too long" so my mom grounded me for three days. Er...she doesn't know I'm on now, either. :rolleyes:

[Scatha]

That's ok Beth.

I myself am at a total loss, as they throw quotes at me I never even read in my life. How am I supposed to find a quote in reply to refute them, if I never even read it? :confused:

[Aulë]

They appear to be drowning you with quotes from Letters of JRR Tolkien. ;)

[Bethelarien]

Yes, and unfortunately, I can't seem to find The Letters anywhere. :mad: But I'll try to post something useful.

Edit: Wow! Just read the entire thread. It seems that there is an interesting situation on hand! I don't suppose the mods will delete Eriol's posts? Strange. I'll have to rewrite my post now, though. *sigh*

[Scatha]

Beth, I know where you can find the Letters, namely here:
Rangerdave's archive (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rangerdave_stuff/files/)

I just don't have the time to go and read through them, with all that I do next to these debates.


I read the thread, including the one Eriol referred to, and I must admit that this is not to my liking. I realise that Eriol was not on the list that GoT provided at the start, but the discussion between him and Aule, regarding the tournament rules in the thread Eriol pointed out, is rather blunt in the least and not about having fun at all.


Aule, I hope you don't mind constructive critique, but some may percieve your actions to be done in spite, instead of enforcing the rules, because of this arguement between the two of you just prior to this incident. A little more diplomacy in your 'enforcement' of the debate tournament rules would have been called for.

[Bethelarien]

Thanks for the heads-up, O brilliant ray of sunshine.

And no offense, Aule, but I have to agree with Scatha on this one. Your approach could have been more diplomatic. I have the nagging feeling that we haven't seen the last of this.

[Aulë]

If you had bothered to read my last post in the debate thread, you would have noticed that I said that I would overlook the GoT's breach of the rules, and would allow Eriol's post to stand.

[omnipotent_elf]

well, ther will be always people who bend rules. Wheres the fun in that?
What should have been done was prevent the last few posts, cause like it or not they will have an influence on the judges. The last bits of info is still not fair, and i disregarded it in my response.

Is anyone else finding that their arguments dont centre on the
debate, but on what we say?

PS. Could someone PLEASE close my debate tomorrow, and set up the judging thread?

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf

Is anyone else finding that their arguments dont centre on the
debate, but on what we say?


We're not supposed to let your arguments go unhindered, are we?:p

[omnipotent_elf]

lol, of course not
but i ddo think there is a 'within reason' for this one.

[Bethelarien]

Hey, guys, I am so sorry for not posting. As I mentioned earlier, I was grounded. Well, Mom found out I had gotten on the Internet, so I was grounded longer. I'm really, really sorry. I feel terrible. Please, don't be upset with me!

[Scatha]

No wories Beth, we were getting buried in the debate anyways. Glad to see you back though.

[omnipotent_elf]

no worries.
It did not matter much ( i mean, were not aiming for the title, are we ;)

[Scatha]

LOL omni, if we aimed at that, we'd be sad and disappointed by now :p

[Nóm]

Hello Elves,

Will you please check this thread: Round 6: GoE/D vs. OiE (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=12637)

[Bethelarien]

I will not be able to participate in this round, as I leave on Wednesday, Aug 6 and won't be back until the 12th. My apologies, and good luck.

[Scatha]

Ack, bad timing.

My computer is on the fritz at the moment, so I myself might not be on much.

[The_Swordmaster]

Yikes that only leaves Omni and maybe Scatha. :eek:

First I want to make an apology to both guilds, Dwarves and Elves. I thought that I would be able to particapate in this tournament. But every time I had hope I could join you guys I got extremly busy and I couldn't make a single post. In other words. I am sorry.

But I think I can join you this time if you need another debator. So if you need me I will be more than merry to help out.

[omnipotent_elf]

well, we need ya.:D

i know its bad to just have me ;)
but forgive and forget, i need help anyways ;)

[Bethelarien]

All is forgiven, Swordmaster. :D

Now, when do we want to start this next round of the debate? We've asked for it to be postponed so poor Omni isn't alone, or even just SM and Omni. If we start Sunday, I won't be able to post until at least Wednesday (since I get back on Tuesday). Could you guys do the opening post and the first part? And pick the right side, of course? ;)

[Scatha]

Good to have you back on the team, SM :)

I'll jump in if i'm able to, provided my crummy HDD lets me. :(

[The_Swordmaster]

We need our team together. Is this it?

Bethelarien
Scatha
Omnipotent_elf
The_Swordmaster

[Bethelarien]

Erm...now that I'm back, I guess I can post. Just a warning, though. School starts for me on Monday, so I may be a bit distracted. I'll participate as best I can.

[Bethelarien]

All right. Topic is up:

Was Galadriel right to offer Sam and Frodo a look into her mirror?

Which side do we want to debate? We need to hustle on this.

[omnipotent_elf]

sorry, i have been really sick(i.e, not being able to move from lounge/ makeshift bed for a week...well, 6 and a half days, but whose counting)
*cough*
umm, i dont mind which side, go for whatever the majority out of u three go for
*cough*
*lungs comes out*

[The_Swordmaster]

I hope you feel better soon Omni.

Wow what a good topic Nom has for this debate. I really don't know which side to pick. I can't decide what all of the pros and cons of Galadriel decision of letting Frodo and Sam look into the mirror.

Well if I had to pick one or the other I guess I would say Galadriel was right in giving Sam and Frodo the option of looking into the mirror.

[Bethelarien]

I was thinking along the same lines, SM. The problem is, I don't know how to prove it. Any ideas?

[The_Swordmaster]

I asked around and looked for info. From what I gathered I think our best books to look at is LOTR, HoMe 8 and 9.

I have only read LOTR out of those three.

[Bethelarien]

Same here. I can't seem to find HoME 8 and 9.

Scatha? Omni?

[Scatha]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rangerdave_stuff/

Join the group and see what you can find there, it has a lot of books from tolkien.

[Bethelarien]

We have a problem. I just found this, posted by FoolofaTook yesterday.
This is getting silly. The debate has already been rescheduled once, and now the GoE/D, despite whatever difficulties they are facing, need to go ahead and begin the debate. Immediately. If the GoE/D has not posted their opening statement in 48 hours, then the debate will be considered forfeited and awarded to OiE.
Therefore, I will post an opening post, holding the position that Galadriel was right to offer Frodo and Sam a look in the mirror, since that is basically the only view that was discussed. I'll try to post tonight. If someone else can put together a good post before tomorrow, go for it.

[omnipotent_elf]

how insulting!
did anyone actually get PMed or anything?
well, sorry guys
i have had three successive flus....
well i'll hopefully be over them in the next few days, and thats when i'll post my arguments
sorry again for not particpating thus far...

on the bright side, Nevavarein appears to have joined/is intersted in joining our team
:D

[The_Swordmaster]

I'm back. I will now be able to post in this debate from now on. Good choice on picking the side Beth. I hope this proves to be the easier side to debate on. I should have a post in a day when I have some time to type it out. I have some good points to counter Gothmog's post and some new ideas that may help us.

[omnipotent_elf]

I've hopefully countered Gothmog's initial post, but i'll need some support

[omnipotent_elf]

for the next debate, do you reakon we sould organise who does what. I mean, we could get one person to do the opening, two for the middles, and one for the closing. If anyone wants to add an extra post, they could just jump in?

that way, everyone has a certain job, so it'll make it easier to debate

[Bethelarien]

That sounds awesome. Actually, I was thinking about that myself. Marvelous idea. We'll organize that for this upcoming debate.

[Aulë]

Congratulations, guys. :D
You just got your first ever vote! :)
That should warrant a celebration of some sort. :)

[Bethelarien]

Funny, thanks. ;) Maybe I will have to hurt you after all....:D

[Aulë]

You're in with a good shot.
You are 2 votes, and OiE are 1 vote; with 2 votes to be cast. :)
This may be the upset of the Tournament :)

Congrats to Omni for a fine job this Round.

[Scatha]

Outstanding work on the last debate, folks. :D

Whatever happens on the two remaining votes, you make me proud. :)

[omnipotent_elf]

*grabs confetti and begins a party*

by the way, it's 2-2, but i knew that would be the case with beleg voing anyways..............

[omnipotent_elf]

*puts away confetti*
damn
at least we got two votes :D

[Aulë]

Which of you lot shall be hosting the Round 7 debate between the Periaur and the Tolkienologists?
Beth? I know you showed interest last time.

[Bethelarien]

Yes, I would love to host. No one else better steal it from me this time, either. *glares at Omni*

Just kidding. ;)

[Aulë]

OK, start it up ASAP then, please. :)

And I think Baragund needs one of you to judge his Round 6 debate.

[The_Swordmaster]

I'll judge if noone else wants to.

[Beleg]

Erm, will the host start a thread please?

[Aulë]

Yes, hurry up.
I want to beat Beleg :D

[Bethelarien]

Actually, I'm going to do it. But *blush* I don't remember who I'm hosting!

[Bethelarien]

Alright, we need to get hopping on our debate vs. the GoO. Who's on the team this time?

[omnipotent_elf]

*comes out from behind boulder*
i hate galres.....

anyways
i'll debate for the next one, i'll do one of the counter-arguments, if no-one else objects that is
*glares at beth*

[Bethelarien]

I've posted the opening post (finally). I'm going to be gone for the rest of the debate (unbeknownst to me until last night) starting this afternoon. Omni, either you or SM needs to do a closing post on Sunday. The other can help Nev do a counter-argument. I hope none of you forget!

[omnipotent_elf]

I'll do closing tomorrow
might be easy.........

[Nóm]

Hello Elves and Dwarves,

Just thought I'd remind that you guys are scheduled to host the uncomping debate between OiE and GoO. I am not sure when it will be starting. The thread can probably be opened up at any time now, but OiE is still finishing up Round 7, so I am not sure if they will want to start right away.

[Scatha]

Thank you for the heads up, Nom. :)

[Bethelarien]

If anyone else doesn't want it, I'd be happy to host another, now that I actually know what I'm doing. :D

This would (of course) be a Round 8, right?

And we need to start getting our team together for 8. It's gonna be a tough one, against the Periaur, I believe.

[Aulë]

Yes indeed. ;)
(Is annoyed that Scatha made it back before the debate started :p ).

I'll put you name down as host in the schedule right now, Beth. I suggest you start the thread ASAP to get the team lists, and PM Maedhros the topic. The debate was due to start today.

And yes, it is Round 8.

[Scatha]

Why annoyed Aule? Afraid you're gonna get a run for your money? ;)

[Bethelarien]

Annoyed? Well, I'm rather relieved! :p

And thanks, Aule. I'll look up a topic tonight and post ASAP tomorrow. But I'm supposed to be 'in my room' right now, so I have to make this quick.

It'll be up tomorrow around 11:30 or so CST.

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Scatha
Why annoyed Aule? Afraid you're gonna get a run for your money? ;)
A debate team with Scatha is always going to be more difficult than a debate team without Scatha. ;)

So...what is it now for you guys....8 losses in a row...? :p

[Scatha]

As for the eight losses in a row, as you kindly point out, Aule:

- For a first time guild participating in the debates, we are not doing so bad. A couple of them were close, but did not have the luck at the voting.

- At least we participate, even if losing... we have gained respect.

:)

[Ancalagon]

Here you go you Elven/Dwarven jobbies!

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13437

Build me an army:D

[Bethelarien]

Ummm...yeah. I would really appreciate having a team, if the member of my guild wouldn't mind.

Scatha, I know you'll be gone. What a shame. I miss having you on my side.

Omni, where the heck did you go? I need you!

And what about GoD? You guys haven't participated in (I think) any of the debates. Totally not fair.

[Scatha]

I'll be back with a vengeance, Beth, in the next round.
I miss doing this together with you. :)

[Scatha]

Round 8:

Astounding!!!

Once again I see Bethelarien is left to her own devices to debate by herself, without any support by either of the subguilds. :mad:

Beth, I am very sorry for not being here for you, as I have just returned from my vacation and have a NEW hdd to install. (couldn't resist, they were much cheaper over there and bought a 80Gb liquid bearing HDD)

I shall however be online again in two days, as announced.


I expect to find Beth not debating by herself!!

You should be ashamed of yourselves of leaving a fellow guildmember hanging like this!