The Great Debates' Matters!

[Gil-Galad]

I would say that will be our "teenage" team! :p ;) :D .......and I know they'll make a great performance.

[Lhunithiliel]

Guys and Lady ;) :D
The Round 5 of the Debate Tournament starts tomorrow.

Aule has returned and he's running again the whole thing actively.
So if he says there will be a Round 5 so it will be.

So, our team should feel prepared.

G-G, I would ask you to find out all the details about our coming debate and who the host will be etc.

GOOD LUCK!!!

Oh, and if Manveru is finally not able to participate, then, if I'm not mistaken our Honourable Esquire Beleg_Stronbow will take his place. Right?

Please, remember to discuss your TEAM-position and strategies (PM-s or/and MSN) before the first post :)

[Beleg]

Unfortunately Manveru isn't able to participate in the 5th round, So I am going to take up his place.

So the team we have is,

Finduilas
Beleg
Lantarion
Anamatar

[Manveru]

Yes, yes...
Since the TTF DT 5 round starts tomorrow (that is Sunday) I must quit the team, because I am not sure (I will be on Monday--then it will be too late for quitting:() if I will participate in the forum's activities...
I think that when this 'weird' time will finally end for me I will have a chance to participate in next round(s). :D

Again... I'm glad that my place is 'filled' (thx Beleg) and I wish our team BEST OF LUCK (crush 'em all:D;)).

[Lhunithiliel]

The debate in Round 5 is open

here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=339269#post339269)

Good Luck to our Team! :D

[Beleg]

Seeing that's Its our turn of choosing the side, we have to decide which side we want to take....

[Bethelarien]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Scatha, it seems our two guilds will have a debate on Round 5 of the Debating Tournament.

Do you have people around?

You see how it is here - most people are away for summer holidays...

If I'm not mistaken, our Team # 5 includes Manveru and Finduilas ....... + two "ghosts" so far. :rolleyes: :D

Is your team full and ready for a debate?

What shall we do?

Well, we're short one person again. We were supposed to have a joint team with GoD, but they have never participated, and Scatha and I are having trouble finding people from our guild to participate. We're all rather intimidated (as you can understand--none of us have ever debated before this), so people aren't exactly willing. If we can't find someone to fill out our list, then just the three of us (Scatha, Omnipotent_elf, and I) will debate.

Good luck to you.

[Scatha]

Congrats Lhun on getting a full team together. :)

Beth and I shall have to try and outwit you guys in the upcoming debate. Whomever may win, there will at least be two tolkienologists in the winning team. ;)

We, as Beth stated, shall participate with three, as the GoD never gave us the promised help in the debates. We may as well have called it the GoE, instead of GoD/E. :(

Good luck my fellow Tolkienologists.

[Finduilas]

Now it turns out that there are members of our Guild which will participate in the other Guild.Then can't we give you one more Tolkienologist to complete your team? Isn't that allowed?

[Bethelarien]

Check with Aule. We would certainly love that. :D And be greatly indebted to you.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Now it turns out that there are members of our Guild which will participate in the other Guild.Then can't we give you one more Tolkienologist to complete your team? Isn't that allowed?

I thought of that when I read Bethelarien's post. I would like to help them. But I need the permission of our Guild-Mistress to do so; as well as the very clear permission of Aulë (and perhaps some other Guilds as well) since there is a very strict provision against it in the rules, which would result in a forfeit by the Guild employing a member who already participated in debates representing another Guild, "as well as other penalties", I think.

Scary business.

If Aulë and Lhun (and the other participants) agree, I'd like that.

[Bethelarien]

I certainly hope they give their permission. Having debated against you (I think), or at the very least read your debates, your help would be most welcome.

I think that, given the circumstances, there shouldn't be any objections. (Though, of course, I may be wrong.)

And now I'm going to shut up. ;)

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Bethelarien
Check with Aule. We would certainly love that. :D And be greatly indebted to you.

Then ok I will ask Aule and would also like to ask if someone of our members is a volunteer? :)
I would be but I'm already in our team.

[Scatha]

Eriol, we'd be honored to have you. :)

If Lhun and Aule agree, as well as the other guilds if needed, we would greatly appreciate this offer. :)

[Gil-Galad]

That's a good idea,but it came to our minds too late ,I think.Anyway I would like to say Good Luck to the Tolkienologists' team and of course to our opponents.

And please, I hope our team will arrange a meeting in MSN or somewhere else,where they will be able to discuss which side should we defend.

[Scatha]

Thanks GG, and you have my gratitude for the hosting of round 4, on behalf of the elven guild. :)

[Finduilas]

Yes, I too want to wish good luck to both teams.
I pmed Lhun and Aule and now lets wait to see what their solutions and opinions are.
Lets hope that they'll agree.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Scatha
Thanks GG, and you have my gratitude for the hosting of round 4, on behalf of the elven guild. :)
I should thank you Scatha,because you gave me this great opportunity to be a host!Thank you!

[Lhunithiliel]

What you are asking me for is to create a precedent! ;) :D

Please, understand me!

From the point of view of the ONLY REAL and ONLY TRUE and ONLY VALUABLE purpose of these debates - knowledge, I would never mind the "cocktail"-structure of the debating teams no matter what guild they are coming from.

But, from an "administrative" point of view I don't think this is possible.
Scatha knows that I was troubled even for seeing him - a GoT esteemed member - ready to defend the Guild of Elves against the GoT.... I was troubled because I thought that our co-members here, at the GoT would object against such a thing.
Now I see, that not only this did not happen, but just on the contrary! Our Guild-members themselves have offered help to Scatha and his Guild (and don't forget that Beth was a Tolkienologist once upon a time ;) )....
All this is so....... BEAUTIFUL !!!!!!

But....... what the...... ;)......If Aule says "yes", I'll not object either! :D

I however strongly doubt it that Aule will ever permit it!

[Beleg]

I personally am not in favor of this. It would have been allright If it was a casual debate, but in such a formal type of tournament, I dont think It is good to exchange people for debates.
Eriol debating for GOT, and then going on to debate for GOE, and then again debating for GOT. eek!!

[Aulë]

Hmmm,
Although this sounds good in theory, it can't be done.

As Rules 2c and 2d state:
2c) The Debating Guilds shall select teams of 4 members, among its own members;
d) Members of more than one Guild cannot debate for two different Guilds in the Tournament - the penalty for breaching this rule is forfeiting the match in which he played for a second Guild, with further penalties for the offending Guild under the discretion of the Tournament Organizer.

If the GoE/D cannot come up with a full team of 4, they shall have to take part in the debate with the reduced number of participants.
If we become leniant with this type of thing, team swapping may become more frequent.
As Beleg said, that would be fine in a social debate; but in this Tournament, team-swapping is not allowed. Imagine if in the English (soccer) Premier League players swapped between clubs from week to week- it would be incomprehendible.

May I suggest to the GoE/D that they do a bit more recruiting within their Guilds. The GoE is one of the largest Guilds in TTF, and should be able to find enough willing participants.
And may I remind Beth that Omni and Scatha are both in the GoD too ;).

[Scatha]

Thanks for that clarification, Aule, but may I remind you that most of our members seem to be either legolas lovers, or already debating for another guild??

For instance our discussion leader Anamatar, yourself, need I go on??


And tnx for the reminder to have my name taken from the GoD list.

[Bethelarien]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
(and don't forget that Beth was a Tolkienologist once upon a time ;) )

What?!? Once upon a time? How am I not still a member? No one ever notified me that I was taken off the list! Put me back on! I demand it!

[Scatha]

My fellow tolkienologists, even though the offer made by this guild to complete our team for the debates was declined, the offer was greatly appreciated.

You have proven yourselves to be an asset to this community and gained the friendship of the Guild of Elves.

I hope to be discussing more intimate collaboration between our guilds with Lhun on a short term. :)

My heartfelt thanks to you all, from me and on behalf of the GoE.

[Beleg]

So people what do you think about the new [replaced] topic??
We have to prepare an opening statement...
Can I prepare that?
But before that we will have to decide which side we want to choose...

[Eriol]

Posted by Scatha in the Judging of Debate 4

A strange event, this round between OiE and GoT.

I have to agree :D.

The third vote against us has been cast, so the debate is officially lost. I want to invite all Tolkienologists, and especially the involved team (including me ;) ), to discuss whether we should "do something" about the judging in this debate. I remind you that there is a precedent; the Guild of Elves has officially protested against a judge.

It seems that most or all of the judges in the Tolkienologists x Ost-in-Edhil debate voted on what they thought the question was, and not on what the question actually was. We have Beorn saying that "it would not have been ok for Beren and Lúthien to involve other people", which is basically our position, and then giving the vote to Ost-in-Edhil; we see Scatha dismissing the "language trivia" and coming to the same conclusion. Well, I'm sorry, but the "language trivia" is very important. We have to refer to what is written. The Tolkienologists chose sides and debated based on what was written; and what was written is NOT "Would it have been ok for Beren and Lúthien...".

Giving the vote to Ost-in-Edhil means that the judge believes that this question :"Was it ok for Beren and Lúthien to involve other people in their quest for a seemingly selfish reason?" was answered negatively. In other words, it means that the judges who vote for Ost-in-Edhil are saying that this proposition: "It was not ok for Beren and Lúthien to involve other people in their quest for a seemingly selfish reason" -- was ably defended.

But if the judges use as their argument that "It would not have been ok...", they are automatically accepting that it did not happen. Check the "language trivia" about subjunctive mood in the debate ;). So we have judges saying that it was not ok for B&L to do something that they never did! While we said that it WAS ok for they to NOT do what they never did. In effect, the arguments of Beorn and Scatha support the Tolkienologist's position.

All of this based on the confusion between the question the judges were considering and the question actually asked in the debate.

I don't know who won the debate, of course -- but I know that you can't judge based on some other question than the one being discussed. The question was not what they judged by.

If this establishes a precedent, I don't see how I, or anyone, will be able to debate with any semblance of conherence -- after all, the judges may always reinterpret (which means, of course, change) the question after the debate is over.

Unfortunately, it seems the question was badly worded; as follows from the fact that two judges voted based on what was not written there, and that Maedhros himself saw fit to clarify the question in his vote. But if the two sides are discussing different interpretations of the same question, there is no debate; and to pick one of the two interpretations on a whim is definitely unfair. If a judge believes that this is what happened, AND that the question itself is to be blamed, he should vote for a draw.

I don't think this is what happened, mind you; I think Ost-in-Edhil had a good idea of what the question was, better than the judges themselves.

I won't answer to this invitation to discussion before tomorrow. I'd like to see what you think about it.

[Finduilas]

I want to announce that for our team we have three members:

Beleg
-I-;)
Anamatar

And the GoE has three too.But....

I will be awau now for two days(starting from tomorrow) and on Monday again for 5 days.So...I won't actually be able to participate too.I have just been informed for that .:(
So it turns out that we have two debators:

Beleg and Anamatar!

We are seeking for one more!!!
Come on Tolkienologists help! The topic is just fine!
Here's the debate :

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12509

[Beleg]

I agree with you partly Eriol and I have asked Scatha to clarify a point...even before I saw this.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Finduilas
I want to announce that for our team we have three members:

Beleg
-I-;)
Anamatar

And the GoE has three too.But....

I will be awau now for two days(starting from tomorrow) and on Monday again for 5 days.So...I won't actually be able to participate too.I have just been informed for that .:(
So it turns out that we have two debators:

Beleg and Anamatar!

We are seeking for one more!!!
Come on Tolkienologists help! The topic is just fine!
Here's the debate :

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12509


If no one else want to join (after all, I took part in the last debate), I'll join. Though I think that our team (me, Beleg, Anamatar) seems to be unlucky :eek:; if gate7ole showed up it would be spooky.

The topic is fine -- I'd like to see this argued against YayGollum :D.

[Beleg]

Ah, we are glad to have you on the scary train ride Eriol.
It's fun to debate against you but It's more fun to debate by your side.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Aulë, in the judging thread
THEN, Anc said the quote that made all GoT's concepts into nothingness.

(...)

BANG! It was brilliant. The topic had even fooled me until Anc pointed it out.

A bit of bickering then took place backwards and forwards, and GoT didn't really gain any ground through it, and didn't even acknowlege Anc's observation.


Well, we did acknowledge it; we did not see what is the relevance of it. And to say the truth, I still don't. The link between Ancalagon's post and the sentence "It was NOT ok for Beren and Lúthien to involve other people in their quest for seemingly selfish reasons" is still beyond me -- no matter how hard I try to see it.

Can someone enlighten me?

And we see yet another judge being "fooled by the topic". I have to agree with Scatha, this debate was a strange event. Even though Aulë (and Maedhros) voted for us, I find their reasoning as weird as that of the other judges.

Now is the time for the "Twilight Zone" theme...

[Beleg]

Well, two 3-2 [At the moment] losses against Both Scholars and OIE. :(:(
Frankly speaking I am not at all satisfied with Scatha's judging of the Fourth round debate against OiE.
Hopes for the Guild Mistress to appear in this thread....

[Eriol]

I'd like to know the opinions of Anamatar and gate7ole about it, as well as Lhun's. If they are all in favor, I think we may protest. To tell the truth, I was more... surprised by Beorn than Scatha. Scatha apparently misunderstood the question; but Beorn understood it quite well, said it was flawed, and decided that his own (personal) interpretation was the "correct" way to read the question; and then he decided that Ost-in-Edhil had answered that unasked question better than us.

:confused:

The more amazing part of it is that the "Beorn interpretation" is the opposite of what was written; and this means that he gives the vote to Ost-in-Edhil by using our own arguments.

:confused: :confused:

[Anamatar IV]

Well both judgings are a little vague, but after rereading them I think they're pretty much ligitimate...

[Eriol]

That's a relief! Can you explain them to me then, Anamatar? I mean, I thought I was getting crazy.

P.S. It seems Arvedui is just as surprised at the outcome of the debate as I am; check the Ost-in-Edhil debate thread.

[Lhunithiliel]

I have read the debate and made 14 points just for myself to understand where the problem is.
I did.

The debate:

The problem is that the question was interpreted in two different ways by the two teams. And from there on it lead to a confusion.

I think that our team did a GREAT job defending our understanding and the same did OiE in defending theirs.

I amused myself greatly at the moments where Eriol and Chymaera were trying to seek the logic of the question!

The point is that because of the different approach to the question itself, they both were right ...in their logical conclusions.

But, we, as a team, debated better and we had a much better organization of developing our position.

The judging:

The same problem here!
The judges themselves (EXCLUDING Yay !!!) showed again the two different approaches to the question and they judged based on that.
I think Maedhros, as the one whose brain invented the question as it was, showed the true meaning of this question and it turned out that our team in fact won because we understood it all correctly, not the OiE! And we not only understood the question correctly, but also defended our position much better!

I personally was shocked at Aule's judging, because he opened his post by stating that the result from the debate was obvious (having in mind the three votes "for" the OiE).
Is the purpose of a debate in counting votes?
Yet, I thank him for his judging for our Guild!

Yay...... Well... I need not even comment! This cannot be called judging at all! Sorry, Yay!

The outcome:

I think that we practically won!

The question is now how to proceed.
An objection should be submitted. But to whom? And what our demand will be?
A draw?

[Eriol]

I think we must make clear that we have no quarrel with Ost-in-Edhil. They were fantastic opponents. And as Lhun pointed out, they did a great job of defending what they thought was the question.

But the problem, as I see it, is this -- can a judge interpret the question in a different way than what it was meant? We have the "original meaning" of the question clarified by Maedhros; and both Beorn and Scatha voted based on another completely different meaning.

Now, I think the question was, perhaps intentionally, obscurely worded; in fact we have ample evidence for that, not only in the debate, but in the judging. But if the question was intentionally obscure, then the judges must restrict themselves to what was decided on the course of the debate; they must not "interpret" the question themselves and decide on the basis of this interpretation.

In other words; the judge must see the two teams defending different interpretations, and decide which team did a better job of defending their interpretation against the other. That means that the "language trivia" becomes the central point of the debate! We have two teams trying to establish what exactly was asked, and the judges must judge which team did the best job in that respect; not to decide on the "correct" interpretation without regard to what the teams had to show on that regard.

All of that assumes that the question was intentionally vague. If the question was inadvertently vague, on the other hand, I think a draw is the fairest vote; and I would have no quarrel with any judge who decided that. But it is clear to me that if two teams are arguing different things, and the question is to be blamed, a draw is indicated.

This seems to me to reflect Beorn's views, by the way; "the question was flawed" is pretty strong. After saying this he said that "O-i-E adapted to the flaw, while T did not"; well, adapting to a flaw is not usually the "in" thing to do in a debate :D. Beorn simply decided he'd agree with the O-i-E interpretation (giving no reasons for that, and dismissing the "language trivia" as lack of adaptation) and gave his vote accordingly.

A side note -- when we choose sides in a debate, and then the question asked changes in mid-debate, can we change sides as well?

:D

That is my opinion about judging. Now, what's to be done:

1) YayGollum. I really did not understand Yay's vote, but his style can be obscure at times. Yet, he said, in effect, that "both teams were great, but I'll vote for O-i-E just for the heck of it". We could ask him to clarify his position (for us, in the GoT; I don't think this should be official).

If Yay could not expound on his reasons, or said that this was pretty much the way in which he made his decisions, I think the only course would be to reject his indication as a judge in the future debates involving our Guild. There is no provision in the rules for that; but I think it can be arranged with the Hosts.

2) Protesting. The GoE did just that; they announced that they were officially protesting against a judge. I don't know what happened later; we might check. As far as I'm aware there is no provision in the rules for that; and I guess the right venue to handle that would be the Appeals Committee, but that's my opinion. Aulë must be consulted.

3) If there is no way to protest (i.e., if Aulë interprets the lack of provision in the rules as an indication that no protests can be allowed), I think the GoT should refuse to contribute judges to the tournament; for there is learning happening on both sides, debators and judges, and to let this kind of judging go by without comments is against the spirit of the debate tournament, or so I think. There is no reason why judges should be deprived of discussion; even if the outcome of the debate is not changed, I think these problems with the judging must be addressed. If there is no "official" way to address these problems, well, we make an unofficial protest.

4) What do we request? I don't know. My guess would be two new judgments; and I would ask Ost-in-Edhil if they agree, by the way. The precedent of "changing a question after the debate is over" is very dangerous. Even if we think Yay's judging was bad, it was a judgment, related to the topic of the debate; but Beorn and Scatha changed the question, or did not understand the question. My proposal would be for two new judges to replace them.

Minor issue: Lhun, can you explain to me what is the relevance of Ancalagon's post? Aulë said it was decisive, and so did Yay; they said we did not acknowledge it, and so on. I acknowledged the part that had some relation to the question; the rest (the part Aulë quoted in his judgment) seemed to me completely irrelevant (and confused). It still does. Can you help me in that? I'm clueless.

Another minor issue: I think the judging of this debate shows quite clearly why the judgments should be postponed until all five judgments are delivered; I mean, it is obvious to me that Beorn's post had a lot of influence; and since he had changed the question, it influenced, for instance, Scatha.

I may be wrong, of course; but it seems very much like that to me, now.

[Scatha]

Lhun, the answer what to do is quite simple, you should protest against the vote made by Yay and for his reasoning for it.

This way you can either demand a new judge to be called in (I suggest taking Nom), or for him to clarify his reasoning for his vote, which does not alter the outcome.


Eriol, Beorn's post for the judging had nothing to do with mine whatsoever, nor did it influence it. As a judge, i vote only on what the debators have posted, regardless of what is said about them by others and totally impartial.

Now everyone has their own way of interpreting things, even in a confusing debate like this one. If the topic wasn't clear enough, this should have been stated in the debate.

[Eriol]

I stand corrected then. I'd like to hear your opinions about what we are discussing here, Scatha.

[Scatha]

Well, I think this debate was rather confusing and that the topic should have been better clarified.

A protest against Yay's vote is in order, or at least a better reasoning for it.

[Beleg]

Scatha Posted his judging
A strange event, this round between OiE and GoT.

Let's leave the language trivia aside and go the the heart of the matter. Though being put on the defensive at the beginning, GoT failed to follow up on their start, OiE came alongside with a very good post from chymaera. His posts from the Silmarillion came at a very good moment, thus shifted the debate in their favor.

Beren and Luthien did not ask for any help in their quest, Beren did not even want to take Luthien into Angband.

All these well chosen quotes from Tolkien's own work and in his own words, proved that the question could only be answered in one way.

Therefor, though my compliments go to all of the debators involved, my vote goes to OiE.

It appears from the words in bolded part to me that you are thinking of the Question as 'Whether Beren asked for any help in his seemingly selfish quest?' however the Question provided by Meadhros in the Debate thread is,

Was it ok for Beren and Lúthien to involve other people in their quest for a seemengly selfish reason?
He is only asking us that whether It was okay for B&L to involve other people in their Quest, not whether they involved other people in their Quest.
Please, I ask again, would you kindly put some light on the reasoning of your judgement?

[Scatha]

Was it ok for Beren and Lúthien to involve other people in their quest for a seemengly selfish reason?

B&L didn't involve anyone in their quest, nor for a selfish reason or any other reason. All people that helped, did so on their own accord.

The question itself should therefor have been irrelevant.
That is what OiE claimed from the start, that the question was irrelevant, as they did not involve others.

[Beleg]

B&L didn't involve anyone in their quest, nor for a selfish reason or any other reason. All people that helped, did so on their own accord.

The question itself should therefor have been irrelevant.
That is what OiE claimed from the start, that the question was irrelevant, as they did not involve others.

But Is it for the judge to decide whether the question is irrelevant?
As far as I understand [Which is understandbly pretty little] there are two sides of a debate and each team argue in favor of their choosen side. It is for the judge to consider, given the Question and all relative conditions, which side argued better in favour of their choosen side of the Question.
Through this post you yourself show that you didn't judge on the side the debators picked in accord with the Question, but you judged on the 'flaw' in the Question.
I don't think Meadhros asked us whether the Question was irrelevant or not, the flaw in it with was automatically taken as a condition.
[No personal offence to you Scatha]
***

Anyway, what do we have to do If we want to offically protest against the decision?

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Scatha
B&L didn't involve anyone in their quest, nor for a selfish reason or any other reason. All people that helped, did so on their own accord.

The question itself should therefor have been irrelevant.
That is what OiE claimed from the start, that the question was irrelevant, as they did not involve others.



?????????????????


That's our 3rd line of argument!

The Tolkienologists said that they did not involve others!

Odder and odder...

[Scatha]

Beleg, simply post the guild's protest in the judging thread.


Eriol, as did Chymaera in his postings, but made a better statement then your guild, also he provided the quotes to back up his words. That is why I voted for them.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Scatha
Beleg, simply post the guild's protest in the judging thread.


Eriol, as did Chymaera in his postings, but made a better statement then your guild, also he provided the quotes to back up his words. That is why I voted for them.

So, if the opposing Guild use more quotes to prove OUR point, they win??

[Scatha]

Eriol, the whole debate was as confusing to the debators, as to the ones judging it. I may have misinterpreted the topic.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Scatha
Eriol, the whole debate was as confusing to the debators, as to the ones judging it.

We can agree on that :D.

[Lhunithiliel]

This is what I'm talking about!
Misinterpretation OR rather different interpretation of the question!:rolleyes:

Eriol, I would be so much greatful if you prepare the text of the objection. I WILL SIGN and if you wish me I will send it to ....
WHO??????? the hell shall I send it to? To Aule?:confused:

Will you?

[Lhunithiliel]

Beleg's protest on behalf of the Guild (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=341360#post341360)

Cool, Beleg!
Just COOL!

You have just made the fool of me!
Why! Thank you!

[Eriol]

Dang... I wanted to make a fool out of Lhun today... I never was quite able to do that.

:D :p

The text of the objection is pretty much in these past two pages. I don't know if it will be formally conducted, as an appeal is supposed to be if it follows the format of the appeals committee, which involves opening a thread about the matter and the presentation of both sides of the argument. If it follows this course, I'd like to make it clear (again) that our protest is against the judges, not against Ost-in-Edhil; the defendants are YayGollum and Scatha.

If Aulë decides to follow another course, then we will have to wait for his explanation of what will happen. Of course, we will have to wait for that regardless; I've just made a fool of myself.

;)

The ball is not in our court any more.

[Ancalagon]

It strikes me you are not only attempting to make the judges seem foolish, but you are going all out to make Lhun one also! Surely any protest should be made by the Guildleader, unless of course Beleg is the Guildleader, in which case I apologise. However, I guess if you make enough noise someone might listen.

[Lhunithiliel]

Don't bite Black Dragon!!!!! ;)
This is an internal matter!

BUT!
The objection stays valid!

If I am allowed to add anything:
We would like the judging of Yay to be clarified OR to be replaced by the judging of another judge.

(this additional line I added to the respective thread too with the gracious permission of my Guild co-members)

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
It strikes me you are not only attempting to make the judges seem foolish, but you are going all out to make Lhun one also! Surely any protest should be made by the Guildleader, unless of course Beleg is the Guildleader, in which case I apologise. However, I guess if you make enough noise someone might listen.

There go I and my big mouth again :D

No, Ancalagon... this was discussed over PM's. Note Lhun's post -- she is surprised but glad. Beleg simply took the initiative to do what was decided beforehand. (Unless I am interpreting her post in a completely different way from what she meant; irony is a two-edged sword, perhaps even a three-edged sword).

As for the "looking foolish", I was joking... I thought it was clear, and I even said I never managed to make Lhun look foolish :D. But the intention of Lhun was clearly to protest, as seen in her next-to-last post; so, I think I am interpreting her post correctly, as thanking Beleg. It is also clear (in this thread, even) that we did not move beyond open discussion of the subject before Lhun posted her opinion on it, agreeing with me and Beleg; we only protested after she agreed.

As for "trying to make the judges look foolish", this is not the point, of course (as well as sounding a bit harsh). The point is understanding the judgments; I have made many questions about it, I'd like to learn. For instance, you could explain to me what is the big relevance of your point in the debate; quite honestly, I haven't seen the link between the part highlighted by Aulë in the judging thread and the question of the debate.

If the debators are here to learn, why not the judges as well? Does this mean we're trying to make them look foolish? I'll tell you what -- I am feeling quite foolish while I don't see this connection between your post and the question being debated. I want to avoid feeling foolish. I must be pretty foolish, since two judges said that this was the decisive point of the debate.

[Lhunithiliel]

Common now...
What's done is done...
We have stated our objection.
I hope that Aule will take it into consideration.

We have another debate to worry about.
And AGAIN!.....I wonder will it be forever so!.... there seems to be a problem with the topic.

What are the news?

[Beleg]

The news for the current debate is that, finally a second topic has been settled upon by both sides and we have posted our opening arguements and are waiting for our oponents' arguements.

[Eriol]

The topic is fine, Lhun, and Beleg opened it already.

[Lhunithiliel]

But didn't our Elf/Dwarves friends want a change of the topic? :confused:

OK! I saw it... D*** work! I seem to lose the track of things!

Hard position you have chosen! Let Eru help you! ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

The judging of Round 4 is turning into a VERY unpleasant matter!!!

Now we are accused of influencing the judges!

I don't like this! I DON'T LIKE IT!!!!!! :mad:

Opinions?

[Eriol]

Ok, opinions:

This accusation is pointless; we kept quiet until the judging was done, and only then spoke up. I'm almost sure that if the little conversation that me and Scatha had in this thread had happened before his vote, he would not have written what he wrote; of course, he could still have voted for O-i-E.

That would be influencing the judges.

Now, we have to wait for Aulë to say what will happen. I think we must not make comments about this; especially with O-i-E members, since they seem to be taking this in the wrong way, in spite of what we said many times here: they debated fairly, they were good opponents, and they are NOT the defendants in this matter. In other words -- they have nothing to do with it. When they try to interfere with this, guess what? They are attempting to influence the judges.

The judges must defend their reasoning by themselves; that's how I see it.

If O-i-E is displeased with that, I'm very sorry; and I hope they never find themselves in our situation, in which you defend a statement in a debate and see the judging of the debate being decided on the basis of a completely different question. This is not a GoT problem; this is a problem with the tournament, with the "guidelines for judging" that are missing. Remember, this is the FIRST of TTF debate tournaments; every improvement is welcome.

As I said somewhere above, when we see this happening (the two guilds defending different and unrelated statements -- so unrelated that the GoT agreed with O-i-E! and it had to agree, since O-i-E's statement was one of the GoT's own arguments to defend their statement) I think that the judges have two options:

1) they decide that the question is flawed, so flawed that the misunderstanding is not the blame of the guilds; then he MUST vote for a draw. It's the only fair action, for no debate is actually happening.

2) They decide that the question is NOT flawed, that the wording, even if ambiguous, is acceptable; then they must look at the debate and decide which team is doing the better job of defending their own interpretation of the question as the correct interpretation. What they must NOT do is pick one of the interpretations as "correct" with no reason for it and vote accordingly.

I don't even know if this protest will result in a change in the votes; but I'm sure it will result in more detailed procedures for judges in such situations. And that is the main point.

[Beleg]

I agree with Eriol here. How can we be accused of influencing the judges when we raised our points and protests after the debate was over.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
I agree with Eriol here. How can we be accused of influencing the judges when we raised our points and protests after the debate was over.
And you are right.We waited till the end of the debate and stated our opinion.So it cannot change anything.
But the problem,I fear we may face is in the fact that some people will probably think we are always crying when we lose.
The worst thing is that from 4 debates so far only one was completed and judged without any scandals and etc.......:(

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad

But the problem,I fear we may face is in the fact that some people will probably think we are always crying when we lose.


Ah, but worrying about what other people think is a sure way to get premature grey hairs...

:D

People who think that without examining the merit of each question are simply wrong. If they think that after examining the merit of each question, then they are right :). Do you care? I don't. I know that in the end what will be remembered is that some hassles could have been avoided by foresight; and I hope that future debates, and future tournaments, can be improved by it. Many things are running very smoothly; some are not, such as the judging. This is a general problem, remember; the Guild of Elves protested against a judge in their Round 4 debate as well. We can only hope that out of it all we get an improvement. Debators are here to learn; why not the judges as well?

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Eriol
Debators are here to learn; why not the judges as well?
I would suggest you say that think to the other members of the TTF.Especially those who are responsible for the tournament.

[Eriol]

I assume Aulë is watching this; he is subscribed to this thread, and I've seen him reading it sometimes (hehe, the good ole' Who's Online strikes again)

[Lhunithiliel]

Guys, why have you left me alone at the "Judging" thread?

And "that think" is written with a g = thing :p :D

***Lhun hides away***

[Eriol]

Always the hasty wraith... as you were here asking this, I was on that thread explaining why I think WE should stay away from it. Go and take a look ;).

I really think we must wait until a method of arbitration is decided before we start arguing about it.

Nóm's suggestion is both simple and fair, in my opinion; I think all of us should take a look at it in the judging thread.

[Lhunithiliel]

Hehe :D I did that Mariner!

Whatever is said, I think that the ONLY just and reasonable argument IN OUR FAVOUR was, has been and is the opinion of the person who "invented" the question - Maedhros!

Aule? Ah! We'll see what he will say........IF ....

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Guys, why have you left me alone at the "Judging" thread?

And "that think" is written with a g = thing :p :D

***Lhun hides away*** hehee
just see at what time the post was published and that will explain everything ,plus the fact that there was too much alcohol near me at this moment.;) :p :cool:

[Eriol]

The kind Aulë has just decreed all of my posts in the current debate void. (Speak of amateurship...). I guess Beleg and Anamatar will have to go to the trouble of copying and pasting what I wrote there to posts of their own.

[Scatha]

This is certainly not the way I had hoped our debate would go. :(

Sorry Eriol.

[Bethelarien]

My apologies as well. It's too bad that this had to happen. Hopefully, though, it won't happen again. What a shame.

[Lhunithiliel]

Scatha, Beth, so very kind of you!

Now that the case has been taken care of and Eriol is restored to the tournament, we shall have to continue the debate with the people available.

You two on the side of the GoE and on our side - Anamatar and Beleg. 2 vs 2 :D Fair enough! :D

[Lhunithiliel]

I'd like to just add that I wish all the luck to our debators in the present and in any further debate because the Guild STAYS IN THE TOURNAMENT.
We stay in inspite of the "bitter" taste the tournament has left us with so far.
And I am NOT speaking about the scores !!!!!!!!!!!

I hope that every one of us who wishes to participate in the future debates shoul always bear in mind that he/she can only benefit from her/his participation!
At least I hope so!

So, we are still in this tournament although, as many of you know, I was strongly tempted to withdraw the Guild from it, taking into consideration the events.

I think that we are doing great!

The scores the Guild has achieved so far I do not consider as any indicator of the knowledge shown by our teams!
These scores, and not only the ones of our Guild, only show that the Tournament is lacking good judging in many cases.
I hope that the last dispute our Guild had about Round 4 will make people think twice and thrice when they accept to be judges to a debate.

Again,

GOOD LUCK to everybody !

[Gil-Galad]

Lhun,I agree with your words,although I still think we could leave the tournament or participate without being judged.

Anyway,my disappointment from the whole situation is a fact.

But the Sixth Round is coming and I would like to start making the team.I would like to participate,cause I just love GoO and Nym and it would be a great pleasure to be once again her opponent.
Volunteers for Round 6?
Lhun,woult you like to join,please?
Mrs.Maggot?
Manveru?

[Eriol]

Thanks, Scatha and Bethelarien; good luck on the rest of the debate :).

I will NOT take part in round 6; but I will be available for later rounds.

Thanks Lhun :); and good luck to our teams.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Lhun,I agree with your words,although I still think we could leave the tournament or participate without being judged.

Anyway,my disappointment from the whole situation is a fact.
Well, G-G, as I saw the results from my "diplomatic raid" ;) :D I thought the outcome satisfies us.
But if the Guild is again treated unfairly, then I will certainly withdraw it.
I have just given peace one more chance ! :D

But the Sixth Round is coming and I would like to start making the team.I would like to participate,cause I just love GoO and Nym and it would be a great pleasure to be once again her opponent.
Volunteers for Round 6?
Lhun,woult you like to join,please?
Mrs.Maggot?
Manveru?
I 'd love to, but as you know I am having some quite unpleasant events in the month of August that will take my whole brains and time away :( How could I be of any help then! I am sorry! I wish i could... :( But I can't!

[Scatha]

It seems while you received peace, that the issue is not solved yet, Lhun. The thread is ongoing.

[Beleg]

If no one objects, then I would like to further my name for participation in Round 6. I would Love to debate in this round.

And what about yourself G-G? Why not you too?

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
The scores the Guild has achieved so far I do not consider as any indicator of the knowledge shown by our teams!
These scores, and not only the ones of our Guild, only show that the Tournament is lacking good judging in many cases.

Lhun, could you explain what you mean by this statement, I guess I just need clarification on your feelings on this matter, because I am probably wrong in my thinking, you mean that a great many of the judgements made so far have been either incorrect or simply inane!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Scatha
It seems while you received peace, that the issue is not solved yet, Lhun. The thread is ongoing.
Don't worry, Scatha! I have taken care of it :)

[Gil-Galad]

As I said I would very much like to participate in the debate!
I haven't participated since Round 1 and now I'm really eager to do some good job.
It will be a great pleasure for me to be in a team with you Beleg!
And having in mind Eriol do not participate in Round 5,because of the stupid scandal I would like to invite him too.Last time I took part in Round 1 with him he did his best and thanks to him we won!
And ,also Manvery desired so much to take part in Round 5 but he didnot manage,so would you like to join us too Manveru?!;) :cool:
so here is the team so far:
Beleg
Gil-Galad
Eriol ????
Manveru ????

[Eriol]

I would really prefer to not take part in it, Gil-Galad... thanks for the invitation.

If you really need me (i.e., if there is no other volunteer) it's another matter. But what about Lantarion, Finduilas, Eledhwen, Mrs. Maggott... we have the biggest list of members in the house. Do any of them want to take part in it?

[Manveru]

Thx again, Gil-Galad, for your invitation...

I have a small (maybe even 'silly';)) question, though...

When will Round 6 be taking place? (I asume that dates stated in the turnament thread are still valid or is it the other way round:confused: ).

I'd like to fit it in my 'weird schedule' and finally participate...

;)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Eriol
I would really prefer to not take part in it, Gil-Galad... thanks for the invitation.

If you really need me (i.e., if there is no other volunteer) it's another matter. But what about Lantarion, Finduilas, Eledhwen, Mrs. Maggott... we have the biggest list of members in the house. Do any of them want to take part in it?
Findi is not in the city these days and I do not know when she will be back.
As for Lant and Mrs.Maggot of course they are welcome.But I haven't seen Lant since a long time in the guild.
Lant would you like to participate.

And Eriol,it is my personal opinion but I' ll tell it to everyone.I believe you are among the few who can really oppose Nym.So if there is not volunteers,please join the team.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Manveru
Thx again, Gil-Galad, for your invitation...

I have a small (maybe even 'silly';)) question, though...

When will Round 6 be taking place? (I asume that dates stated in the turnament thread are still valid or is it the other way round:confused: ).

I'd like to fit it in my 'weird schedule' and finally participate...

;)
Manveru, look here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12102) :)

It is written... on the boards (not on the stars! :p )

Round 6 - August 3-rd - 9-th.

Our Guild will meet the Outcasts.... AGAIN! ;) :D

[Manveru]

I saw that, Lhun...
I only wanted to be sure if these dates are valid (now I asume they are;)).

So G-G... I'm in (if you still want ME to be part of the team;):D).

[Gil-Galad]

Ok,today starts round 6.The team is:
Eriol
Gil-Galad
Manveru
Beleg_strongbow

I hope we will WIN this time!

[Lhunithiliel]

GOOD LUCK , boys!!!

[Beleg]

Yeaah, an All 'boys' team!
;)
Anyway, good luck to our team. Hope we have fun in this debate!!

[Gil-Galad]

This time I hope there won't be any problems with judges or topics,and I believe everything will be ok.

[Manveru]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
This time I hope there won't be any problems with judges or topics,and I believe everything will be ok.
I am sure everything will be OK:D
(I mean... what's good in waiting for sth bad happen;))

Manveru --> Inveterate optimist

:D

[Lhunithiliel]

In the absence of Gil-Galad, I here call for volunteers to participate in the next Round of the Debating Tournament - Round 7 vs. the Periaur.

[Anamatar IV]

I'll vonunteer...but I should warn you, depending on how late the debate starts, I may not be able to be in it the whole time. I'm going down to North Carolina for a few days on the 27th.

[Finduilas]

I could participate instead of him...just I would like to know when does it finish?
Because I'm leaving the town in the end of the week and won't be available.:(

[Gil-Galad]

Well,I'm back for some time so let's start making the team for Round 7!
I would like to invite LANTARION!He has not participated in any debate yet and I will be glad if he would like to join the team!
And what about Mrs.Maggott?I haven't seen her from quite a long time?
Volunteers?
?????
?????
?????
?????

[Lhunithiliel]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
It seems we do NOT have a debating team for the next Round - Round 7 against the Periaur.:eek:

WHAT SHALL WE DO ?

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
I'll vonunteer...but I should warn you, depending on how late the debate starts, I may not be able to be in it the whole time. I'm going down to North Carolina for a few days on the 27th.

;)

[Lhunithiliel]

I do remember this, Ana-mata-tama-rata - tar! :D

But as much as I respect your readiness and willingness ... I can't see how you could participate! 27-th is just 3 days from today! :rolleyes:

I am not sure when this debate will start...I'll have to check!
It might even happen that the debate starts after you return.
Then... OF COURSE!!! :D
But even so, could you stand alone against Snaga, Aule and the rest Periaur - the leaders :p in the Tournament!

[Eriol]

Periaur and Scholars have not even started to debate yet. At least one week from now, Lhun.

[Lhunithiliel]

:eek:
You mean Round 6? :eek:

Then....We shall have to wait until they finish the whole Round-6 debate between them?

Well....we'll see.....

It seems that Aule is now no longer a TO, nobody knows who's in charge....but in any case, pay good attention to this (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12102) ! Cyriaher posted it and it maybe that he'll take over the position of a TO... I don't know...:rolleyes:

Still...the question with our next team remains!!!!!

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
But even so, could you stand alone against Snaga, Aule and the rest Periaur - the leaders :p in the Tournament!

Ah, but Lhun- The Periaur are no longer the leaders of the Tournament ;).
The OiE are flying ahead, whilst the Periaur have lost form (Well...it's actually because Snaga is no longer debating...)
And I have notice that the GoT have come out of their form slump ;) and are now only 1 win from 2nd place. :D

Also, FoaT is the sole TO at the moment. No one appears to have nominated anyone else...

[Finduilas]

I would like to participate and I'll try to do my best.
Do you want me?
:)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Aulë
Ah, but Lhun- The Periaur are no longer the leaders of the Tournament ;).
The OiE are flying ahead, whilst the Periaur have lost form (Well...it's actually because Snaga is no longer debating...)
And I have notice that the GoT have come out of their form slump ;) and are now only 1 win from 2nd place. :D

Also, FoaT is the sole TO at the moment. No one appears to have nominated anyone else...
Say, Aule, it seems your IS is working even better than the CIA and FBI! :p :D
Whatever is said in GoT concerning the Tournament is known to you! :D Common! Tell me (at least in a PM!) - Who's the "mole"?

And as for the places and scores and points...... I don't care about that! However, I saw the score-board after I have read your post and I saw no change! Is it updated? Or you mean our 6 points against the 7 of the Schollars and the Outcasts?

Anyway....It is far too unimportant! I read what my Guild-fellows are posting in the debates and I again feel how fortunate I was to accept once Grond's invitation to join this Guild and that the Guild exists and that there are such a wonderful minds gathered here!! :)

BTW, any idea of when Round 7 will start?
********

Findi, but OF COURSE !!!!!!!

So,

GoT Team for Round 7:

Finduilas
Anamatar ?
?????
?????

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Say, Aule, it seems your IS is working even better than the CIA and FBI! :p :D
Whatever is said in GoT concerning the Tournament is known to you! :D Common! Tell me (at least in a PM!) - Who's the "mole"?

And as for the places and scores and points...... I don't care about that! However, I saw the score-board after I have read your post and I saw no change! Is it updated? Or you mean our 6 points against the 7 of the Schollars and the Outcasts?

Anyway....It is far too unimportant! I read what my Guild-fellows are posting in the debates and I again feel how fortunate I was to accept once Grond's invitation to join this Guild and that the Guild exists and that there are such a wonderful minds gathered here!! :)

BTW, any idea of when Round 7 will start?

Hehe,
The 'mole' could be anyone....;)
It could be the person you least expect...:p

And the scoreboard: You are still in 5th, but if results go your way this round, you will move up to 3rd.

Round 7 will start whenever Round 6 finishes. I know that FoaT is going to start pestering the hosts to get the 2 remaining debates completed (actually, 'started' would be a more appropriate word ;) ) ASAP.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Aulë
[B]Hehe,
The 'mole' could be anyone....;)
It could be the person you least expect...:p
Hmmmmmmm

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

So, you DO admit we have a "mole" ! :p

[Gil-Galad]

Hey,what about Lantarion?!
Lant,won't you join the team?You haven't participated in a single round of the tournament yet.And I'm sure you will do a great job if you join the team.;) :cool:

[Lhunithiliel]

Unfortunately, Lant said that he has started school and it seems to be a busy time for him. He apologized for not being much around!

[Gil-Galad]

OOOOO,that's too bad........And I see there are no volunteers..:( Come on!The team need two more debators.As you know these days I'm busy with my student visa for Belgium and the preparation for my eventual departute,so I really do not have any time to participate in serious activities.I wish I had enough time :( .Lhun,what about you,won't you take part in Round 7,remember Round 2 and The Guild of Periaur!Don't you want to face them?

[Aulë]

Yeah,
C'mon Lhun :D

Snaga and I want to take you on again ;)
And what happened to Mrs Maggott? I hope we didn't scare her away from debating. :o

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Aulë
Yeah,
C'mon Lhun :D

Snaga and I want to take you on again ;)
And what happened to Mrs Maggott? I hope we didn't scare her away from debating. :o
Well,as far as I know she has some problems and she is not able to participate actively.That is why she postponed and her biography for The Gallery of Characters.

[Gil-Galad]

Hey,what's happenning with the team for Round 7 only two persons will take part ,others?Lhun?
Anamatar
Finduilas
????

[Beleg]

If no one else wants to participate then I will.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Beleg
If no one else wants to participate then I will.
You are most welcome,but I have a question I MUST ask!
Won't you be too busy with the debating?IWhat I mean I that you still haven't posted the two biographies for The Gallery of Characters and I wonder when you are going to do it.:( :(

[Manveru]

Hey, Gil-Galad...
I'd be happy to participate. Why not? Round 6 was a great fun and I learned a lot... Count me in.
My mind is a little distracted nowadays (;)), but I think I'll be 'in power' to help the team.:D

BTW: I see there's only 1 spot to be filled (Anamatar, Finduilas + one available). Is it going to be a 3 vs. 3 debate? Maybe it's a little misunderstanding...

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Aulë
Yeah,
C'mon Lhun :D

Snaga and I want to take you on again ;)
And what happened to Mrs Maggott? I hope we didn't scare her away from debating. :o
I have other things on my mind instead of "fighting" against you, boys! :p

Besides, the Tournament has unfortunately left a taste of bitterness in me .... and before someone starts interpreting this as "whinning", "complaining" etc. about our Guild losing some debates ... I'd better remind that I personally don't care too much about scores and tables...although I know many here do.
What I am interested in is to find a deeper understanding in Tolkien's works....so sometimes it seems silly to me to start "convincing" someone else in sth. which is obvious or speculate about sth. else that even the author seems to have not decided finally himself or/and has not developed..... And all that - accompanied by numerous "red hot chilly peppers" ;) :p, "wrotten tomatoes/eggs" etc...
What's the point?!

But...of course, this is my personal attitude.

Besides, out of 23 members of this Guild I suppose it is possible to form up a team of 4! ;) :cool:

[Gil-Galad]

Ok Manveru you are the third debator!
Beleg
Finduilas
Anamatar
Manveru

So,this is the team!
GOOD LUCK TOLKIENOLOGISTS!

[Beleg]

Well Aule has started the thread for the seventh debate since the host GOE/D had failed to start it at the scheduled time.
Should we post our team there?

Team I hope stands,

Finduilas
Manveru
Anamatar
Beleg_strongbow

[Finduilas]

Yes. We are ready for the debate.
:)

[Gil-Galad]

I hope this time we'll show the Periaurs which is the better team!

[Manveru]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
I hope this time we'll show the Periaurs which is the better team!
We'll do our best!
Have you seen a topic, G-G?;)

BTW: I guess I kinda "slip" a little at the begining... but I'm a total optymist (so I guess we have some chances;)).

I think I'll need to read our opponents' posts 3, 4 or more times...'cos I don't want to 'heat' a debate;). And I'd also like to ask for some 'reinforcements'... thx Findi

[Anamatar IV]

*Peeps out from behind the rock he's been hiding behind*

;)

School's been....bleh this week but it's the weekend now! If I can't post tomorrow, I'll surely post on Sunday.

[Manveru]

Now you're talking, bro;)

*breathes with ease*

BTW: I totally forgot about school... how could I?;) sorry, you must have been busy...

[Gil-Galad]

It seem that the judging is not going on well for us,but anyway,I think tha we performed great.The only problem was that we had to defend the more difficult side.But you know,that's the way to become a good debator!

Ok Round 8 is coming qnd it will be a very tough one.That is why I think we the best debators of Guild should take part in it and defend our Guild's name!
Who are the four heroes?!
????
????
????
????

Lhun I would very much like to invite you to take part in this debate,because I believe we will definitely need our Guild Mom during this debate!

[Lhunithiliel]

I accept G-G...I'll try to do my best.

As for the fact that our Guild is losing debates... Let me tell you that I personally don't mind that ...But don't you think we should have more "practice" inside the Guild? .Although our debates are held in such a civilized manner which has NOTHING to do with what we meet outside!:mad:
Anyway.... it IS high time for us to revive debates and discussions IN THE GUILD .....don't you think?

[Beleg]

But don't you think we should have more "practice" inside the Guild? .Although our debates are held in such a civilized manner which has NOTHING to do with what we meet outside!
Anyway.... it IS high time for us to revive debates and discussions IN THE GUILD .....don't you think?

The problem I feel is the lack of internal dicussion and planning among us. :(
I agree with you Lhun.

I feel that I should nominate these members for the 8th Debate,

Lhun
Gil-galad
Eriol
Gate7ole

:)
Oh and G-g, how's the new country?

[Aulë]

*sneaks through the GoT's backdoor, uninvited, once more*
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Although our debates are held in such a civilized manner which has NOTHING to do with what we meet outside
What? But we tried to be nice and friendly this time (Even Snaga managed to restrain himself). :)
In fact, it was Beleg who was being mean and nasty to us. ;)

I must say though, this debate was much more enjoyable than that contraversial one in Round 2. One hopes that the rift between our two Guilds has healed over time...:)

[Lhunithiliel]

LOL Aule!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you subscribed to this thread or what?!? :p

Tell me honestly!!! I'm just a poor wraith! A mighty Vala should not be too much afraid to speak out in the presence of a wraith! :p
******************

Now..... Beleg, my friend, although your suggestion is wonderful, I doubt it that our friend Gate will be able to dedicate too much time in such a "much-time-involving" activity as a debate is. He's in the Army now and only from time to time he's able to come out and have access to the net.
So... I'm in - OK! Let's see what Rio and G-G have to say. Still one vacant place. How about YOU!!!!! ;) :p

BTW who are we going to debate against?:eek:

[Manveru]

Against the Scholars, oh! wraith!

:D

[Lhunithiliel]

LOL .... :D
Good! I'd like that! :D

[Gil-Galad]

The next round is against the GoS.As you can see if this is not the toughest debate it is the second toughest aftre the one with GoiE.
Lhun,I like your idea,but I don't think we can manage to do it right now.Just see how many are the active members and you'll understand what I have in mind.At the same time it wiill be pretty difficult for those who participate in the Tournament, to take part in these debates too.
What I suggest is very simple.Let's wait for the end of the Tournament.And then I'll start a whole programme about debates (only for Guild members)as a preparation for the next tournament next year.And at the same time I'll organize every month at least one debate with some of hte other Guilds.Thus I believe we'll have the best preparation for the next season.
What would you say?

[Lhunithiliel]

Great program, G-G!
I very much wish to see it happen!!!!
Go for it!

[Gil-Galad]

Ok,before the end of the Tournament I'll post a programme with plans and ideas about the debates,so right after the last round of the Tournament we'll be able to start our debates,inside the Guild.

[Gil-Galad]

Hey who are the four debators for Round 8
Lhun
Eriol
too more!!!!Come on there's not much time left!

[Beleg]

..

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Beleg
..

:D:D

Come along Strongbow :). We need someone skilled in war, like the mighty Erchamion :D.

[Lhunithiliel]

Only...watch who are you going to shoot your arrows at! :p

Looking at the Members' List one (especially me!) wonders.... [i]so many Tolkien-experienced people - yet only a few wishing to participate in the tournament :eek: I guess I'll never be able to understand that! :confused:

[Manveru]

Yeah, boss... some things are just... nevermind...

I heard you're 'one soul short';).
I can participate in this round (if no other expert wants to--and if you want my 'shards of tiny knowledge', of course).

:D

[Gil-Galad]

And finally the team is ready!For The Guild of Tolkienology ave to be defended by the most experienced and capable debators!!!!
Lhun
Eriol
Beleg
Manveru

[Maedhros]

Well, since my friend Lhun is going to participate in the debate, I have no choice but to meet you in the honorable field of debate.

The thing with Lhun is that she really does know how to use comb hair.;)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Well, since my friend Lhun is going to participate in the debate, I have no choice but to meet you in the honorable field of debate.

The thing with Lhun is that she really does know how to use comb hair.;)
Oh,Maedhros,you are going to participate in the debate?I think that it will be a real pleasure for me to read it,having in mind the 8 debators from both teams!

[Manveru]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
And finally the team is ready!For The Guild of Tolkienology ave to be defended by the most experienced and capable debators!!!!
Lhun
Eriol
Beleg
Manveru
Well, I'm nothing more than just a 'filling-the-spot' (I was asked to and I couldn't turn it down;))... like a 'single grain of sand among 3 pearls'... but as I remember correctly (I might be wrong;)), sand has sth to do in the process of creating of a pearl... so maybe someday...

:D

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey... hey!!! Hold it !

Sonny, be kind to me ...otherwise I won't comb your hair nicely! ;) :D

Manveru, my friend from above, please don't put us on piedestals! We are not worthy for that ....yet! :p We are all just very equal I think!

Wishing us four a very good luck! :D

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Manveru
Well, I'm nothing more than just a 'filling-the-spot' (I was asked to and I couldn't turn it down;))... like a 'single grain of sand among 3 pearls'... but as I remember correctly (I might be wrong;)), sand has sth to do in the process of creating of a pearl... so maybe someday...

:D
C'mon Manveru.We all know your abilities,and especially when you are "powered by" Melian's love nobody can oppose you!;)

[Finduilas]

Yes, i think that if we have Man in our team, the "enemy" will be blinded by...well, by the the power of love! ....And we'll win!:D:D:rolleyes:

[Gil-Galad]

We'll see,because he can be really exhausted by Melian...........and you know..............;) ;)

[Manveru]

Sorry :( to disappoint you guys, but I am really exhausted (GG, you little devil ]:->...) lately (a lot of work, little sleep...). I haven't even read the half of the posts in that debate (which is overwhelming my tiny knowledge, but it's useful--I've learnt a lot so far.THX:D) and there comes more and more each day. I don't know if I can "catch up"... so BIG SORRY for not even trying to help (but I'll do my best... maybe I'll make it before the end;)).

As one wise Elda said once:

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."

I can say now:

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Scholars and Tolkienologists..."

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Manveru
Sorry :( to disappoint you guys, but I am really exhausted (GG, you little devil ]:->...) lately (a lot of work, little sleep...). I haven't even read the half of the posts in that debate (which is overwhelming my tiny knowledge, but it's useful--I've learnt a lot so far.THX:D) and there comes more and more each day. I don't know if I can "catch up"... so BIG SORRY for not even trying to help (but I'll do my best... maybe I'll make it before the end;)).

As one wise Elda said once:

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."

I can say now:

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Scholars and Tolkienologists..."

Don't worry Manveru :).

Lhun, could you write the closing post? You'd do a better job, and I already said too much there. If you could also find that quote I mentioned in my last post, about Sauron having been defeated but not destroyed, I'd be grateful. It's either on the Council of Elrond (my best guess) or in The Last Debate. I won't get near to the books before the debate closes :(.

[Gil-Galad]

hmhmm I still think that Lhun and Eriol are the best debating couple!Go on !
Now is time to concentrate on the following Round.
What shall we do?
Findi,Beleg,Ant are offline!!!!
Do we have any debators left??

[Starflower]

I'll volunteer *raises hand tentatively*, though I do not know how....

[Gil-Galad]

That's great Starflower!!I'm really impressed!And I know your performance will be wonderful,having in mind your flawless posts in and cognition!
I'm glad you join the teal!
So the team for next Round is?:
Starflower
??????
??????
??????

[baragund]

Hi Guys...

Just a quick note to say how much I enjoyed our discussion about the Istari in Round 8.:) The topic was great, the posts were fascinating and informative and the tone of the debate was such that it felt (to me anyway) like a group of friends sitting around a table having a lively yet friendly discussion over a beer (or two or ten:D ) Lhun, I especially enjoyed the conversational tone of your posts; they are a joy to read.

By the way, I'm glad you liked the KISS acronym. Here are a few others I picked up from my Navy days (cleaned up for family use, of course!)

F.U.B.A.R. – Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition
S.N.A.F.U. – Situation Normal, All Fouled Up
W.A.F.W.O.T – What a Foul Waste of Time
B.O.H.I.C.A. – Bend Over, Here It Comes Again


See you around!

[Lhunithiliel]

It was a TURE PLEASURE for us , Baragund! :D

I hope we could have such meetings often in the future :)

As for the KISS .... Strange that I learned it a wile ago from a New Zealender and he used to be in the Intelligence Service... Is it some military slang? ;)

[baragund]

Yes, it is.

Government employees in general and military folk in particular like to speak in acronyms. If you were to take a stroll down one of the corridors at The Pentagon and listen to people talking, acronyms are used so much in conversation it makes you wonder what language they are using.

Oh, thanks for the invite the other day for the Scholars to take part in some of the activities in your neck of the woods. When the tournament is over and we will have all kinds of time on our hands, I would like to take you up on your offer!

See you around!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
That's great Starflower!!I'm really impressed!And I know your performance will be wonderful,having in mind your flawless posts in and cognition!
I'm glad you join the teal!
So the team for next Round is?:
Starflower
??????
??????
??????
************
G-G, I think that it would be a great idea if you invite some of the newest members like Khonagan, Black Captain etc. to take part in the next debate. :)
***********

Baragund, I'll have in mind your info next time I pop in the Pentagon ;)

I'm looking forward to your participation in some ... and why not all ! :D... of our activities!

[Gil-Galad]

You are right Lhun,but the problem is that the next debate is against GoiE and it seems to be the toughest one for us.I know that you and Eriol participated in the last Round but we need you once again.At the moment you are the only two who can oppose GoiE.I'm afraid our new members still don't have so much experience.
What would you say about:
Starflower
Lhun
Eriol
Black Captain or Khonagan

and what about Lantarion?

[Lhunithiliel]

Count me in! :)

Eri ???

[Gil-Galad]

The team so far is:

starflower
Lhun
????
?????

Thank you Lhun!You again saved the day.But who will be the fourth one?Our Black Captain,Lanti or Khornagan?
Guys,volunteers?:D :D :D

[Eriol]

Brutus is working a lot... he will be away until Wednesday. If the debate does not begin before that he'll take part in it; perhaps he can get into it at a late moment if no one is willing to volunteer.

I'd like to see Lantarion in action... it's a pity that he's so busy with studies. If studies are hampering your Forum experience, drop the studies!

:D ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Yeah,drop the studies!!!!Lant you can do it!!!

Eri,I think it's not a problem if you miss the first and the second day of the debate.But I believe it will not start before Thursday,so don't worry.

But who will be the fourth one?:confused: :confused:

[Lhunithiliel]

Yeah! Lantariooooooooooooooooon! ;)
Will you be able to join us, please?

Ah, but Eri, who will then do the opening post?! I hate doing it! :(
And.... when does this debate actually start? :confused:

[Gil-Galad]

WE WANT LANT!WE WANT LANT!!!!

Lhun,the round will not start before the end of this one.I suggest that it will not be before Thursday.
The problem who will post the opening post is really serious,because Eriol proved his abilities in such situations.
I hope that he will be able to do it once again,if the debate starts on Thursday.

[Gil-Galad]

Round 9 will probably start on Friday!Actually I am sure it will start on Friday.That is why I would like to ask you all
Who is the fourth debator?!!!

We have
Lhun
Starflower
Eriol

And Who Is The Fourth One?!!

[Lhunithiliel]

Round 9 has been opened, people ! :)

here it is (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=369993#post369993)

I have just posted our team.

So far we have 3 participants. Shall a 4-th join?

[Manveru]

C'mon, people... where's the enthusiasm? Where are the volunteers? Noone's interested? :(

Maybe I can be the "fill-the-gap-guy" again... (since there's nobody else--or do you wanna try "in threes"?;)). Maybe I'll be of some help this time (don't promise, though;)).

So... if you want a 'distracted' arch to join you...

:D

[Lhunithiliel]

A help from Heaven?

MOOOOST welcome! :D

[Gil-Galad]

I'm glad you joined the team Manveru.I would veru much like to join,but I don't have the physical ability to participate in Round 9,especially when I have to work on three lectures and a Silmarillion discussion about Nirnaeth Arnoediad,to study hard,because my first exam is in 14 days,and to play for the university socer team.
As you can there is no free time in my schedulefor anything else.

[Manveru]

Busy King...;)

No problem... I'm a little busy, too, but who cares about another few 'sleepless' nights in a row? I don't;) (I can't sleep lately anyway, so...).

Hey... and try to find some free time... life's too beautiful to 'miss it';)

[Gil-Galad]

I don't miss it but sometimes we should know which things are of greater importance to us,and do them first.

[Manveru]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
I don't miss is but sometimes we should know which things are of greater importance to us,and do them first.
Yeah, agreed on that. As my fave 'mentor' (Daffy Duck;)) always says: First things first.

:D

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Manveru
Yeah, agreed on that. As my fave 'mentor' (Daffy Duck;)) always says: First things first.

:D
Daffy Duck?I thought your mentor was the Calamity Coyote!!!:D :D :D

[Finduilas]

Are there still any debates left? And who won if not? If there are any free memberships...and any debates as a whole, I would like to participate. :)

[Manveru]

At last. A little enthusiasm. See, people? Take Findi as a 'model' to follow...:D

I see you're eager to participate, little one. If it's allowed, you can take my place in the present debate (it didn't start for good, so maybe...). I'm a little 'distracted' and became weary (of nearly everything) and I've omitted some of my 'duties' already (sorry GG:( it should be ready soon).

So... would it be possible? Anyone?

[Gil-Galad]

I think it is possilbe I will inform GoiE if Lhun has not done it yet.
Findi,go and debate!!!!!The debated has started since one day!

[Manveru]

Thank you... King;)

[Gil-Galad]

I don't know what to say.
The Blue angel has been replaced by my beautiful and noble sister,the fairy lady Finduilas!!!:rolleyes: ;) :cool:
Good luck!

[Lhunithiliel]

But!!!!

I would LOVE to see real activity in that debate by EVERYONE ! :cool: :)

[Gil-Galad]

Having in mind that our opponents now are the Guild of ost-in-Edhil,which means the best debator,I do think that participation is what our Guild most need.
I hope that you girls-Lhun,Starflower,Findi(ok and one guy :D Eriol)will manage to show them what GoT can!!!

[Manveru]

Gosh, the best debators... lucky I "retreated" in time (kidding... you know I'm;):D).

Good luck to both teams (but BIGGER LUCK to our, of course;)). I saw a few initial posts... wow! great debate ahead... no question about that!

Thx again for the "swap" (I appreciate it, I really do) and sorry for this little "turmoil".

See ya all around on the boards (I hope "frequently" enough).

[Finduilas]

I'm in the debate...! Back in the game......with the real players....!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D hehee

Thanks, Man! I'll try to conpencate for your abcense in the debate...;)!

I'm going now....let the party begin!:D:D

[Aulë]

The Guild of Eruhini has forfeited their remaining two rounds.
Therefore the Guild of Tolkienology has won their Round 10 debate with a score of 5-0.

[Gil-Galad]

That's not fair,I was going to participate in the last round.:( :( :( How's that possible?

[Aulë]

Beth quit the team, and then they couldn't get enough debators.

This current debate is your last debate in the Tournament then. Enjoy. :)

[Gil-Galad]

It's a pity as I said.I wonder why did ithappen so?!?

[Scatha]

Because the person that posted above you, cannot be civilised towards his own guildmembers. I am sick and tired of always being pointed at as the guild that holds up the tournament, especially by someone that knows most our members debate for other guilds.

I did not forfeit the last two rounds, I took the team out of the entire tournament.

[Gil-Galad]

I'm sorry to understand that thing,but yes you are right in a way.Aule has a difficult character......:(
Just calm down and let's do the round,ok?
We can't lose,we can only win,because we will have a nice time debating about what we most like-Tolkien and his world!!!!
Come on Scatha,let's do it,forget Aule we can do it for us!!

[Scatha]

If Gothmog is willing to re-open the debate, i'll try and give you a run for your money, together with my fellow guildmaster, GG.

[Gothmog]

I am willing to re-open the debate. I have sent Scatha a PM to this effect. I will have to look into what can be done about the problem.

[Gil-Galad]

Thank you very much Scatha,no Vala will stop the Guild of Eruhini and The Guild of Tolkienology to do their great debate!!

[Scatha]

and thanks to you too, GG. You in a way showed me that there's more to this debate, then just my feelings. I will finish this debate, if only to honor the work Beth put into it. :)

[Gil-Galad]

I'm eager to meet you on the debating field soon!!:D ;) :cool:

[Scatha]

:cool: :D :)

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, well, well....

I followed the events there at the Debating forum, but haven't noticed the discussions here :o

Scatha, to reopen the debate is IMO the best decision. (see your PM-box ;) )

Good luck! :)

[Gil-Galad]

Ok,now,let's concentrate us on the debate with GoiE,because it is extremely interesting for me.
It is one of the most interesting I've read!!
GO girls (ok...and one guy!!)you can do it!!!

[BlackCaptain]

Just for everyone's info, I am available to debate for the Tolkienologists, however I probly wouldn't supply much help aside from the basics, cuz I haven't the extensive knowledge of most of you...

However I'd like to consider myself a last resort, if you have no one else to debate for you, or you would really like to mix things up. My time on TTF has been limited as of late (just look how many posts ahead of me Thol is now!:D ).

So I'm just letting the guild of Tolkienology know that I am available, however you should remember to use me only when nescesity or great great want calls for it.

[Gil-Galad]

Hey,Captain!!Having in mind that the debate with the Guild of Eruhini will be the last one which part of the Debate Tournament(there will be more debates for our Guild,which I'm organizing after the end of the tournament :D ),you are most welcome to join the team!!!

We need you!!!
I want to see Lantarion in the team too!
Come on Lanti!!

The team for Round 10 is :
Black Captain
?????
?????
?????
Three more wanted!!!:D :D :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
That's not fair,I was going to participate in the last round.
Here is the answer, my King! :p :D

[Gil-Galad]

hehehe a great answer Lhun!!!!
Black Captain
Gil-Galad
?????
?????

Lhun,I've never debated together with you,would you mind joining us?!!
It will be a great pleasure for me to debate with you!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
hehehe a great answer Lhun!!!!
Black Captain
Gil-Galad
?????
?????

Lhun,I've never debated together with you,would you mind joining us?!!
It will be a great pleasure for me to debate with you!
Eheee :D

And who sayss chivalry manners have died away? :p
After such a kind and gentleman-like way of asking .... I promise I'll think about it!
Because .... either I participate and the Feanor-essay shall have to wait longer, or I don't participate and I get to assemble that essay and also make the frame of my first lecture....
Tolkien just won't let go! :p

[Gil-Galad]

Oh,my beloved Wraith!!I know you can do it,will you leave us without your great support?!?!

[Arvedui]

I want to extend my thanks to the honourable Guild of Tolkienology for a marvelous debate.
I think that this is the best debate that I have ever attended on TTF, and out grand opponants have every bit of their share for making it so.
Actually, I feel kind of sad that it is over:(

But I am happy with not having to judge it, though:D

Again: thanks a bunch. I truly enjoyed the experience.

[Gil-Galad]

I read the whole debate,the whole week,and I would like to say that this debate was so great thanks to you,GoiE!!!!It was a great pleasure to have such opponents!!
I really think this is the best debate of the tournament!!!!!If there is a top list of the best debates this should be at first place!!!


The judges will have real headaches reading it!!

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you for the kind words, Arvedui!

I found it more appropriate to answer in your own "halls" ;) :)

However, I'll repeat what I said there, by stating what great pleasure it was for our team to meet yours and most of all thanks for the friendly tone and the quality of all your posts!

As for the judges.... Oh! :p :D

[Gil-Galad]

Ok,let's now concentrate on the last round.ROUND 10 of The Great Debates 2003!!!
I would like to complete the tournament in the best possible way!!!!
A Fourth Member is Wanted!!!
Black Captain
Lhunithiliel
Gil-Galad
???????????????????????
Volunteers?

[Gothmog]

Lhun. I have answered your post in our halls. But I wish here to add to Arvedui's post my thanks and congratulations to your guild for making it such a wonderful debate. :)

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Arvedui

Actually, I feel kind of sad that it is over:(

Me too :(

But I am happy with not having to judge it, though:D

Again, me too :D. VERY happy!

Again: thanks a bunch. I truly enjoyed the experience.

Thank you guys... It was a pleasure and a mighty challenge. But mostly a pleasure... that's what remains when it's over :).

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Actually, I feel kind of sad that it is over:(
Me too....

But you know what... We can continue it .... What stops us? After the round has been judged, we can open it again and continue.

I FINALLY sat and started to read that Myths Transformed - "thing" and ...... Gothmog, I have already picked about 4-5 paragraphs which beat your "famous" quote! ;) :D


Oh! And one more thing.... I love this "exchange of amenities" ...:p :D

**********

I see G-G has entered me into the list of the Debating team for Round 10! :eek: ( E.... Bravo be! :p )

Mariner, would you like to join us? Just think of it! The very last chance to have fun! :p :D

[Gil-Galad]

Of course I added you to the list!!!!What will our Guild do without its Mommy?Yeah and we need also a great sailor.
Just imagine a wraith,a high king,a sailor and a great soldier ,who can oppose us?
Eri,do you accept this polite invitation?;) :)

[Gil-Galad]

A VERY BIG PROBLEM!!!
It seems that only Lhun and me are going to take part in the last round of the tournament.Eriol has some problems and he cannot pariticpate of actually he is not sure whether he wil be able.
The problem comes from the fact that Black Captain has participated in a debate for another Guild and he is not allowed to join the team.
Thus we are only two.
We need two debators more!!Volunteers?Please if there is somenone who wants to join,say it ASAP.

[Finduilas]

I can join...

I will certainly be more active than in the last debate!

[Gil-Galad]

Finally somebody decided to join us!!
Thank you Findi.

[BlackCaptain]

I wasn't aware of this rule... Sorry.

I was trying to participate more with both of the guilds I'm in. Debating for both the Scholar's and Tolkienologists' teams was a way I thought I could do this...

My sincerest apologys:( :o

[Gil-Galad]

don't worry!!
If you wan you can participate in the inner debates in our Guild,which will start after the end of the Tournament.
Also we will debate with some other Guilds at least once a month,so as you can see you will be able to debate if you want!!!

[Scatha]

I am going to launch another proposition here as well soon, GG.

We have a new member at the guild of eruhini, who will be entering the debates with us for the next tournament. *points at Thol*

We are setting up a debate thread, where our new team will go head to head, two vs two. :) If this starts going, we may be considering doing debates with the GoT, as a regular training for both guilds. Sound like some good fun to you guys? :)

Might one or more of you also be interested in acting as the host or judge for our intra-guild debate? ;)

[Gil-Galad]

As I have mentioned several times so far,after the torunament we will organize some debates for members of the Guild and at least once every month there will be a debate with one of the other Guilds.
I would be glad if you we can start a debate between our Guild and The Guild of Eruhini in December,after the end of the Tournament.We have some new members too and I believe they will be glad to debate in the Halls of TTF!!!!
As a matter of fact all these debates will be part of a new program of our Guild whose aim will be to prepare us for the next Debating Tournament next year.
At the same time a new idea/project will be(hopefully) started soon,in which most of our Members will have to give their contribution!!!
But I will keep it secret till the right moment :) ;)
Expect the unexpected !!:);)

[celebdraug]

hey! where do most of the debates take place? I would like to watch one before I take part in them! I have never debated here so I am a little worried that I am going to be a little bad at them! :eek:

[Manveru]

Here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=84) you've got the main 'hall' for the debating tournament. You'll find 'debates' there as long as 'judging'... go, read some... they're great... I did the same before I volunteered to take part in my first debate.
Have a nice reading...

:D

[celebdraug]

Thanks Manveru! Just about to do that now :)

[Finduilas]

Oh, I see a new debator..;)
Take a good care after him, Man..;):p:D

celeb, (Can I call you "celeb" for short, or "draug" or would you prefer the whole name?:) ) I see you have seen the "another workbook" Thread in the Noldorin Forge, but if you want you can go and check this Thread, it's a new project and I should say that it is rather interesting...(especially for