The Great Debates' Matters!

[Gil-Galad]

THE GREAT DEBATES' MATTERS

MAKING THE TEAM OF THE GUILD OF TOLKIENOLOGY


I'm sure everyone of us is waiting with great impatience 18th May!,when starts the Great
Debates!Probably the Olympic principle that participation is of greater importance than
winning is true,but not in some of our Guild members' cases.The best thing we can do
for the GOT is to defend its name and prestige among the other guilds.Having that in
mind I believe we should be very careful when we make our debating teams.

First of all,the participants for every debate should be chosen by their skills.I mean
that everyone of us has some specific skills and different way of thinking,which make him a
unique member of our Guild.For example,Lhun,Gate7ole and Walter have an impressive
imagination(I've seen that in "The "What If"Game") and they are really creative persons,
Anatamar and Eol have interesting and analyzing style of interpretating Tolkien's works,
Beleg uses quotes in the best possible way,FOAT is everywhere and nothing happens without
him,Mrs.Maggott has so much experience from real life,and there isn't more stubborn member
than Fiduilas (I do not count in YaYGollum,cause he is really unique),and of course all new
members have ambitions and wish for participation,which all of us(the old dudes)have lost
with the time.If all these features are put together our teams will defend our Guild's name
and prestige among other Guilds.

I believe that to achieve success in the Great Debates we should do our best to compile
the most capable teams.I think that we should make our teams according to the opponents
we face and debate topics we have.For example,there are many members of other Guilds who
are experienced in debating and have many strong sides.The best way to oppose them is to
choose people who have almost the same skills or are even better.It wouldn't be the best
decision if our teams consist of "green members" and the other of experinced ones(most
of them are really very experienced).In addition I would say that we should choose our
team members having in mind the knowledge they have.I mean that some of us have read more
Tolkien's works than others,so I think that it would be a mistake if we put someone who has
not read UT or does not have much experience with it in a debate concerning II age,for
example.That is why,I think,that when someone applies for participation in the team he
should inform us which books he has read and how many times.Thus we will be able to choose
all participants according to their knowledge.

Finally,I should mention that all new members of GOT(or such who have not much experience
in debating)are welcome to participate too.The only way to learn how to do something is
to practise it.Thus,someday,there would be enough members of the Guild who would be able
to represent GOT in other activities.(It's like teaching the young generation ;)!).So
my suggestion is simple.I think that in every debating team of our Guild,together with the
experienced members,should be someone who has not much experience.Thus he will have the
chance to learn from the best.

In conclusion I would say that I hope we will save our dignity as members of GOT after
the end of the Great Debates.

p.s.That thread is for all things concerning The Great Debates.

[Gil-Galad]

Having in mind that the Tornament starts 18th MAY we should choose who will be in the first team.
The problem is that we have not got a big choice,cause actually we have to participate in two debates.It is almost impossible to be part of the both teams and do your best.What I want to suggest is to make the team for the Tournament from those who will not take part in that versus GOO.I believe the Great Debates are of greatest importance to us,so we have to make the best possible team for the first debate.

Our opponents team is :Outcasts
-YayGollum
-munchkin
-Nym
-The-Elf-Herself

As you can see Yay and Nym are the two who seem to be the most dangerous for us.I do not have any info about munchkin and The-Elf-Herself.Do you have any?

Beleg and FOAT are busy with the other debate about Saruman and Sauron.So Lhun and Gate7ole are the only other experienced members who wish to participate.Lhun,gate,would you mind participate in the first debate?Fin phoned me and she told me she would like to participate in the tournament's first debate.She has never debated and I think this time she can be "the green member" of whom I was speaking in my previous post.There is one place left.Anyone?!!!!!
I said ANYONE?

[FoolOfATook]

You can count on me to be in some of the debates, Gil-Galad!

[Gil-Galad]

I want to announce that I talked with Eol and FOAT and we decided to postpone the debate with GoO about Sauron/Gandalf foolishness.So I did it.
We made that because in MAY 18th starts the Tournament and the other debate may ifluence negatively on our concentration.What is more,we need to make the best possible teams for the first round and the third one (versus Scholars-probably one of the most dangerous opponents).
Having in mind the program of the Tournament I'll suggest these two teams:
ROUND 1-GoO :
Eriol
Gate7ole
Gil-Galad
Finduilas -she is the first one from the so called "greenies",who will be included in every debate in order to gain experience.

ROUND 2-GoP :
??????
Eol
Anatamar
Luthien Tunivel
-we need a "greeny"who wish to participate.

ROUND 3-GoS :
Lhun
Gate7ole
Foat
Beleg -we need a "greeny" here.
I think that the fourth one can be also an experienced member because of the opponent we have.As you can see I've put Lhun and Gate again in the team cause they are among the most experienced members of the Guild,together with Foat.


Suggestion about next rounds and changes about the first three?

[Lhunithiliel]

G-g, this is all very cool.
Only this time I shall have to do a thing that I hate most of all - excuse myself from an activity in the forum.

I simply cannot be able to participate in the 1-st round because of my daughter's graduation and prom-party. A lot of guests will arrive at home and I shall have to give them all my attention.
I am afraid, I will not have the time to prepare the posts, because whatever the topic is, it needs looking into much more than one book in order to prepare a good argument. I do not count ONLY on my imagination! ;) ;)

So, please, excuse me :o :o :o !

You can count on me in the further debates all right!!!

In my place, you may ask Eorl. I invited him to become a member of the Guild and he accepted. So, I guess we can count on him too. And he is STRONG in knowledge in T.!!!!

[Beleg]

Erm, one or two suggestions.
Seeing that there are in total to be five debates.

The First will be Against GOo.(Outcasts)

The Second Against GOp (Periaur)

The Thirs is against the GOs (Scholars)

The Fourth one is against G-O-Austin Edhil

The Fifth one is agains the GOe/d(Elves and Dwarves)

The Sixth one is again against the GOo(outcasts)

The Seventh one is again against the GOp (Periaur)

The Eight one is again against the folks at Scholars

The Ninth One is Against the people of Austin Edhil

The Tenth and the last one is against GOd/e(Dwarf/Elf)

I can say that for now, our focuses shoud be bent upon the first five.


And so on.


And Just onething more,

According to the offical Standings, these people are the Members of Our Debating Section as of now.

Lhunithiliel
-FoolOfATook
-Anamatar
-Beleg_strongbow
-gate7ole

Now I suggest we should talk with Pippin and ask him to add the other's also, if they want to participate.
What I wanted to suggest was that I think it would be better if member themselves voulenteer for the debates they want to participate in. Granted the scholars are very dangerous, but we MUSN'T underestimate any team. Every team to my knowledge contains people that can shine on any surface and that have the potential of Winning Debates Single-Handedly.

I would like to Debate against the scholars, if that's possible. And due to my exams I can't participate in the first debate against Periaur. :(

[Gil-Galad]

Lhun,I do understand your problems,cause as you know I graduate to and my mom is in the same situation.
If Eriol wants he is welcome to participate in the first round!

Beleg,of course everyone who wants to participate in the debates or in definite debate will be welcome to join the team.What I meant was that we should choose the team very carefully cause our Guild's prestige depends on our presentations.
And,yes ,you will be of great importance for the debate with GoS,because of your experience.


We are looking for others who want to take part in the tournament?!I want to see some more "greenies"who wish to become part of this great event!

[Beleg]

Beleg -we need a "greeny" here. Erm, some editing I deem...:rolleyes:
And Eriol indeed would be a great adition, specially if the Topic is anywhere philosophical in conception!

Erm, what is a Prom Party?What I meant was that we should choose the team very carefully cause our Guild's prestige depends on our presentations.
I understand and agree with it.

Having in mind that the Tornament starts 18th MAY we should choose who will be in the first team. The problem is that we have not got a big choice,cause actually we have to participate in two debates.It is almost impossible to be part of the both teams and do your best.What I want to suggest is to make the team for the Tournament from those who will not take part in that versus GOO.I believe the Great Debates are of greatest importance to us,so we have to make the best possible team for the first debate.

Our opponents team is :Outcasts
-YayGollum
-munchkin
-Nym
-The-Elf-Herself

As you can see Yay and Nym are the two who seem to be the most dangerous for us.I do not have any info about munchkin and The-Elf-Herself.Do you have any?

Nom is a worthy and a knowledgeble oponent.
Yay-Gollum has the knack of sounding frightfully logical in his own achingly singular way.
The-Elf-Herself is a learned lady? with a very nice style and a brilliant common sense. Allthough i am not aware whether she has debated before or not, her manner of conduction shows that she would indeed be a tough oponent to face.
As for munchkin. Let's just say that we are not to underestimate anyone, however frail one might seem. He might or mightn't be a tough oponent.

But i have complete faith that our worthy team will be able to win the debate against our worthy oponents. :) :D

[Eriol]

Well, I'm willing to help as much as I can -- can anyone give me the details? I'm searching some threads about it, but if someone could give me the "digested stuff" (please, no bad jokes about that -- it's a common expression in Portuguese) it would be of help;

[Lhunithiliel]

You just specify the questions Eriol and we - the "old and experienced debators" ;) :D will help in any possible way.
But, I personally hink, that the most important for you in order to participate in a debate is to bring your rich knowledge with you!
This will be so highly enough! :)
Of course, the in-team co-ordination is the other crucial point.:rolleyes:

[Eriol]

Ok, these are my questions:

I am online every day from about 11:00 to 20:00 (GMT), with a break for lunch. But in workdays this can't be taken for granted, and I don't have access to books or MSN. On weekends I usually am online after 0:00 on Saturdays, after 22:00 on Sundays.

Given that, how can we sort the details of intra-team communication? in workdays I am acessible only by e-mail or PM's, and this "rich knowledge" (hehe) is quote-less. I think I can help even so, but these deficiencies of mine should be known by you.

What is the "timing" of a regular debate? How often must the teams post? Is it one member at a time, or you can post pretty much whenever you want? Is there a limit on the number of the posts per team?

(I saw an old thread in which gate7ole said that it is pretty much "anything goes", but I want to make sure that this is correct for "official" debates -- he was addressing intra-Guild debates).

Finally, about the specific debates soming ahead - are the themes already chosen? Where can I see them if they are? I can't find them in the Guild, so perhaps it is somewhere else...

Thanks guys! What a nice welcome...

[Lhunithiliel]

All right...
Now, let me see if I can answer your q-s one by one:

1/ About the time difference.
Yes, this is a big problem because the members are all scattered around the globe. But since you are from Brazil (if I'm not mistaken;) ;) ....Eeeeeh! Brazil!!!! :D ) you are more or less close to FoaT's time, the same - about Eol. Then, when it is afternoon in your part of the globe, it is late at night here in Europe, but G-G, just as me and Hirila and Finduilas are often on-line till late in order to talk some things over on MSN.

2/ Preparing a post for the debate:
When a debate starts it is always by a post from a judge, who explains all the details - the topic, the time-period etc. Then, one team choses a side and the debate is open.

Now, it is a matter of intra-team decision who will be the first to post. It is also very important for the debators of one team to decide the "strategy" of debating too, how to defend their team's position, what the accents of the posts should be etc..
This is done best on MSN, but PM and e-mails can also do.

Then the opponents' team answers. and so the debators start to view the "picture" ;) and think of such posts and arguments and quotes that can crush the opponents' position.

3/ The Debate-Tournament:
All about it you can read here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10805)


Well???
Did I help? :)

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Well???
Did I help? :)

Yes ;). I'm checking that as we speak -- or type!

[Lhunithiliel]

Good!

You're welcome! Any time! :D

[gate7ole]

Just dropped to say that I will give my best at the two debates our deputy GG has put me.

[Gil-Galad]

Guys,I want to announce that we are ready with the team for the first round.I'm sure we'll do our best and I hope that we'll win ot at least defend our Guild's prestige.
By the way I hope that during the debate the team will be able to rely on you,if we need some help.I do believe that the others(who are not in the first team)will read carefully the debates and will help us with ideas,etc.......
That is why I'll start a thread for that purpose in Sunday,a place where you can help those who participate.Sometimes even a small piece of help coulde be of greatest importance to the participants.By the way,we are allowed to do that,aren't we?

[Lhunithiliel]

Count on me, boys!
Whenever I find some spare time I'll help with whatever I can.

TO ALL!!!!!

When you post advices and/or suggest good arguments, PM them!
DO NOT post them openly! ;) ;) :D

[Ithrynluin]

I have opened the first debate of the tournament between GoO and GoT here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11787). Please assemble a team ASAP.

Or is this your team: Eriol
Gate7ole
Gil-Galad
Finduilas

[Lhunithiliel]

Guys, the debate is open!

You have a WONDERFUL topic !!!!!!!!!!

I feel so sorry not to be able to participate!
MARVELLOUS topic!!!!!

So, you four would better get together ASAP and decide your strategy and pick up a side!

Good luck to all!
I and the rest of us will be around - watching, helping ...whatever... :D

[Beleg]

Erm, Lhun can you give the URL of the thread in here, so that we dont have to look for it all over TTF?

[Aulë]

Click on the link in my signature, and find the relevant link in the schedule. :)

[Gil-Galad]

Due to a trance festival I had to organize I was not able to be online the past two days,but now,when it finished(OMG it was great!)I saw the topic and I would say that it is really impressive and deep topic,which also can be considered as a philosophical one,in a way.

But let shoot my question:WHO WILL OPEN THE DEBATE FOR OUR GUILD!???WHO WILL POST THE THESIS??!!,GATE,ERIOL?WILL YOU? because of my graduation party and the preparation I don't have mich time for it.But I'll do participate in the deabate actively,I just don't have time to write a thesis.Who will do it?It should be one of you two guys cause Finduilas is a "greeny" and ha doesnot have much experience.

[Eriol]

I am discussing it on PM's with gate7ole. We have to wait for the full force of the Outcast's fearful argument before any move is made. As well as their choosing of sides...

I liked the topic too.

[Gil-Galad]

hm....I wonder which side will they choose.I won't sat which one I prefer cause they may read it .......:mad:

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Erm, Lhun can you give the URL of the thread in here, so that we dont have to look for it all over TTF?

Erm Beleg, I gave the link in my above post. ;)

[Gil-Galad]

The GoO made their first strike and I should say I'm impressed by Nym's work.Today Finduilas and I have a meeting and will work on the debate and post some interesting things

[Gil-Galad]

The time of Round 2 is coming!
And our team is not ready yet!
Luthien Tunivel wished to participate so she can be the "greeny" this time.Be we still do not have fourth member.I wonder where Mrs.Maggott is?A volunteer for the last place?

[Gil-Galad]

I was informed by Aule that Luthien Tunivel is already in the Guild of Elves/Dwarves team.That means we don't have a "greeeny"for Round 2!
Any suggestions?WWE NEED A GREENY AND FOURTH PERSON FOR THE SECOND ROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lhunithiliel]

First of all, let me express my gratitude to Team #1!!!!!
You have done a splendid job! :D

As I have checked, the second team includes

Eol and
Anamatar

Boys, I would ask you to give a firm "Yes" about your participation in the second debate.

Besides, I would very much ask Beleg to join the team.

And we need a 4-th member!!!!!!

Mrs.Maggott??? I hop you don't have graduation exams ! ;) :D

[Aulë]

No, Beleg doesn't need to debate.
How bout you try out 4 'Greenies' for Round 2?
It's only against the Periaur afterall....:p

[Beleg]

Mrs.Maggott??? I hop you don't have graduation exams !
Err, I PM'ed Mrs. Maggot asking her to participate in the second debate. As for myself, I'll debate if no fourth member is found and specially if it is the order of the Guild Master. My exams are round the corner starting from the 5th, so I won't get a lot of free time in the near future. That's why I opted out from the second debate. We can ask one of the newer members to participate in the debate. :)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Aulë
No, Beleg doesn't need to debate.
Hu? :confused: :eek:
Beleg? Is there any reason you should not debate?

If not... How about this team:

Beleg
Eol
Anamatar

I need a FIRM confirmation from all 3 of you!

[Anamatar IV]

Sir yes sir!;)

I think Beleg is debating for the Guild of Elves/Dwarves.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
Sir yes sir!;)
LOL :D
I don't know what is said in answer to this!!!! :D
But THANX!

I think Beleg is debating for the Guild of Elves/Dwarves.

W H A T ??? :eek:

[Lhunithiliel]

I am still waiting for explanation on part of Beleg!!!!
****

Meanwhile, Master Took, will you start organizing the hosting of the debate for the guests? :)

I would very much like to know about it all, for I would like our guild to be a hospitable and a good host for that debate!
The participants should feel welcome and at ease in our "halls".

[Beleg]

I am still waiting for explanation on part of Beleg!!!!
I want to make it clear that my heart and alligence lies with Guild of Tolkienology and NOT Guild of Elves/Dwarves.
My exams start in the first week of June and I don't think I'll have as much time as I have now to devote myself for the tasks of the Guild. But If Guild Master asks me to participate in the second debate, then I will participate in it. But it would really be difficult for me to put my utmost efforts in the second debate due to my tight exam schedule and lack of access to computer.
Anamatar, from where did you hear that I was taking part on Behalf of the Dwarves?

[Finduilas]

Just for information,when does the Second Round start?
And which Guild will be the host?

[Lhunithiliel]

Uf! What a relief, Beleg! :D

I was so..."stricken" when I learned you were debating for some other guild!
Now I see it's a simple misunderstanding...

Now... your real life duties, exams most especially, have the utmost priority! So, don't you worry about the debates. :)
But if and only IF you think you could participate in this second debate... you will be most welcome!
But I won't command!!! It will be up to your own decision! I only shall need to know about it ASAP.

Now...Who do we have for the debating team for the second round?

Eol - he has still not confirmed (Eol, where are you?)
Anamatar - confirmed

TWO!!!:eek: (even only ONE for sure :( )

Helloouuu!!!!!! The round starts tomorrow!!!!!!!!

Mrs. Maggott????
Eledwhen?

Volunteers?
Anyone??? :confused: :eek:
******

And Master Took, what is being done about the hosting of the foreign debate?

[Aulë]

Relax Lhun,
The second round doesn't start till Sunday....:p

[Lhunithiliel]

Hehe!
But Sunday is just "round the corner", Aule! ;) :D

There is nothing bad in rushing the things so that we can be ready on time! :) :D

[Beleg]

Uf! What a relief, Beleg!

I was so..."stricken" when I learned you were debating for some other guild!
Now I see it's a simple misunderstanding...

Now... your real life duties, exams most especially, have the utmost priority! So, don't you worry about the debates.
But if and only IF you think you could participate in this second debate... you will be most welcome!
But I won't command!!! It will be up to your own decision! I only shall need to know about it ASAP.

Now...Who do we have for the debating team for the second round?

Eol - he has still not confirmed (Eol, where are you?)
Anamatar - confirmed

TWO!!! (even only ONE for sure )

Helloouuu!!!!!! The round starts tomorrow!!!!!!!!

Mrs. Maggott????
Eledwhen?

Volunteers?
Anyone???
******

And Master Took, what is being done about the hosting of the foreign debate?

I should have posted this before but silly me.:( Anyway, I PM'ed Mrs. Maggot yesterday and she assured me she'd participate in the second debate as long as we kept her updated about it.

That makes it Three and leaves place of One.

I am really sorry folks, but I did some thinking and have come to the conclusion that I really won't be able to participate in the debate. I'll get maximum of 1 hour computer time from 3 June to 11th June and that's not enough for the preperation of a debate.
I hope and prey that someother member would like to participate in the debate.
What about the others?
Mithlond I saw online a few times,
And Hirila too...and Melian if she isn't busy with her graduation thingy...and people like gil-galad and Finarfin. Do you think we should PM them Lhun and ask whether they want to take part in Debates in particular and the activities of Guild in general.

[Finduilas]

Now it turns out that we are in an urgent affair!
This Sunday I'm taking a very important exam but I believe that since the debate will be more light-hearted and if we don't find any members willing to participate,well,then I shall take part.
If you don't find anyone else you can count me in.
I'll try to do my best.

[Aulë]

light-hearted

We'll see about that....;)
I'm sure Maedhros thought the same thing 2 weeks ago...:rolleyes:

[Mrs. Maggott]

Since I think this will be my first debate on the part of the Guild, I would appreciate the "ground rules" which I'm sure are already in place (perhaps I can be directed to a thread which presents same?). Since we would not all be "posting" on the same day, perhaps those with a "full Sunday" will be able to post later in the week if they wish to be a part of the debate.

I also assume we will be advised of the premise and which side we are on before Sunday so we have some time to prepare. Unless the premise is that Lobelia Sackville-Baggins makes better mushrooms than I do (and she doesn't!), some preparation will be required, I would imagine!

I will post whenever the team wishes me to, but if it is early in the debate, the premise is a "must" to allow me time to prepare. At my age, nothing moves quickly except time. :p

God bless.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Aulë
We'll see about that....;)
I'm sure Maedhros thought the same thing 2 weeks ago...:rolleyes:
So, Aulë can read my mind now. I think Erasmus said it best when he wrote In Praise of Folly!

[Lhunithiliel]

All right...
Here is the situation:

Second Debate Team :

Anamatar >> confirmed
Mrs.Maggott >> confirmed
Lhunithiliel ;) :D
Eol >> WHERE ARE YOU?!

The thing is that we do have a team and we are ready for My Noldorian Prince ;) to strike out the topic!

(pssst... Maedhros, give us a topic as good one as the previous, will you?...And I promise a looong hour combing your hair ;) :D)
********

To Mrs.Maggott:

The rules for a debate have been discussed before and several times... but of course, the most important rule of THIS tournament is:
>> each debator has the right to post only twice (length of posts - not limited)

As for other "rules" - well, they are those "unwritten" things like :
>> co-ordination of position among the members of the debating team
>> chosing an individual oponent and "fighting" his/her arguments in particular
>> never contradict or disagree with what has been posted by a member of your debating team
>> be active and yet not hurry but prepare your posts very carefully always keeping in mind which of your arguments could be questioned by the opponents and how can you defend them
>> never be offencive nor feel offended by opponents' comments
...
things like that, you know...

As for time for preparation - yes, there will be such time and it is up to the debating team to decide who of them will post first when we are to open the debate (which I HATE! :p )
*******

To Finduilas:

"lighthearted"?!!!??? Au, Findi... don't tease the lion in the cage! ;) :D :D

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
The rules for a debate have been discussed before and several times... but of course, the most important rule of THIS tournament is:
>> each debator has the right to post only twice (length of posts - not limited)


Lhunithiliel, are you sure of that? You told me this and I asked ithrynluin, the host of our debate, and he said there was no restriction... we should check that.

[Aulë]

There are no posting restrictions in this debate. The only restriction is time-wise (7 days).

And Lhunithiliel, you are officially the first person to shorten my nickname...;)

[Lhunithiliel]

ooops!:o

So, NO RESTRICTIONS concerning the number of posts.

And Aule,
And Lhunithiliel, you are officially the first person to shorten my nickname...
:eek: Hey.... when did I do that? :eek: :D

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
To Finduilas:

"lighthearted"?!!!??? Au, Findi... don't tease the lion in the cage! ;) :D :D [/B]

:o :o :o
I'm sorry I didn't mean it in a bad way...It's just that I read it somewhere,that it would be easier,and I thought it is true.
Once again,sorry,but since I now saw the team:) !!!!! I certainly believe you'll win!!!
Go Guys,and girls;) ,beat them,you are the best!:) :D

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Aulë
There are no posting restrictions in this debate. The only restriction is time-wise (7 days).

And Lhunithiliel, you are officially the first person to shorten my nickname...;)
Do we post in a determined order? 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2 etc.? Or is it every man/woman/elf etc. for him/her/itself? I would imagine then that we will not have an equal number of posts for each member at the close of the debate and some will post more often (especially if a rebuttal debate breaks out between two posters). Of course, I may be wrong.

Any rules about "rebutting rebuttals" or is this permitted?

[Eriol]

What I have learned is pretty much what Aulë said: NO restrictions, at all.

So go get them Mrs. Maggott!

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Eriol
What I have learned is pretty much what Aulë said: NO restrictions, at all.

So go get them Mrs. Maggott!

You probably learnt that because I made the rules, therefore I'd be worried if you heard otherwise....;)


And Mrs. Maggott, click on the Tournament link in my signature. That should take you to the Tournament schedule, where there are links to all the Round 1 debates if you wish to see some examples.
Also, there is no determined orders (unless the Guild wishes to do so.)
And there's no restrictions on rebutting rebuttles. If you wish, you could rebut all day and all night...:D

[Eöl]

Eol >> WHERE ARE YOU?!

AHH! Sorry everyone, I have been grounded for the past 2 weeks from the internet...and our beloved forum.:( I am back now, could someone please fill me in on where the debate, who we are going against and what the topic is?

[Lhunithiliel]

Hi, Eol! :D

Have you read what "Mr.Reloaded" ;) (Aule) advised Mrs.M.?
If you follow the same advice, you'll be aware of what is going on.

Good to have you back! :D

[gate7ole]

I'm very sorry that I didn't contribute much at the first debate of the guild, though it seemed that my team-mates were so good debators and did a fine job (probably winning the first debate).
A very busy week finished for me and from now on, I will participate more in the tournament.
And good luck to the second team!

[Lhunithiliel]

Helllllllouuuuuuu, agapi mu! :D

I'm happy to have you back too!

Be prepared for the Third round. It's going to be hard - the Schollars!

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Helllllllouuuuuuu, agapi mu! :D

I'm happy to have you back too!

Be prepared for the Third round. It's going to be hard - the Schollars!
it's good that there are no other greeks here, or they might misunderstand us ;) :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by gate7ole
it's good that there are no other greeks here, or they might misunderstand us ;) :D
Don't worry, moromu ;) :D :D !!

[Aulë]

Could the Tolkienologists please put forward someone to host the Outcasts vs. Elves/Dwarves debate this week?
And if possible, a host for the Periaur vs. Elves/Dwarves debate which will be in 2 weeks time too.

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by Aulë
Could the Tolkienologists please put forward someone to host the Outcasts vs. Elves/Dwarves debate this week?


Err, I'll be happy to do this.:)

By when this week should I have the debate posted?

[Aulë]

Excellent :D

All you have to do is:

1/ i) Come up with your own topic, and PM it to Maedhros for him to check, OR
ii) PM Maedhros, asking him to give you a topic

2/ Make sure that both Guilds have teams of 4 ready (I'd start pestering the Elves/Dwarves ASAP since they aren't the most reliable team)

3/ Start a debate thread in the Guild of Elves on Sunday

4/ Keep an eye on the debate

5/ Select 3 other judges (1 from Periaur, 1 from Scolars and 1 from OiE)

6/ Close the debate 7 days after the first active post, and start up a judging thread with a poll.

7/ Report the result in the Tournament thread in Member Announcements

That's all.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Aulë
Excellent :D

All you have to do is:

1/ i) Come up with your own topic, and PM it to Maedhros for him to check, OR
ii) PM Maedhros, asking him to give you a topic

2/ Make sure that both Guilds have teams of 4 ready (I'd start pestering the Elves/Dwarves ASAP since they aren't the most reliable team)

3/ Start a debate thread in the Guild of Elves on Sunday

4/ Keep an eye on the debate

5/ Select 3 other judges (1 from Periaur, 1 from Scolars and 1 from OiE)

6/ Close the debate 7 days after the first active post, and start up a judging thread with a poll.

7/ Report the result in the Tournament thread in Member Announcements

That's all.
A N D ....
DON'T FORGET TO DEBATE FOR YOUR GUILD AT THE SECOND ROUND! :p :D :D

[Eriol]

Hi everybody!

It seems the polls in the debates contribute to the final decision(against my best judgement). So we need every Tolkienologist voting! The thread of the debate is in the Outcast's guild, as is the judging thread. Go there and vote!

Argh. Democracy sucks in moments as these. But these are the rules of the game...

I guess I should advise people to read the debate and form a conclusion before voting :). But vote!

Judgement thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=11891)

[Beleg]

I guess I should advise people to read the debate and form a conclusion before voting . But vote!

Did that, wise master! Although In my opinion even If I were a neutral I would have voted for us. We presented 0ur case brilliant, and hats off/caps off to everyone who participated in the first debate. :D

Edit: Guys right now, we are one vote ahead of Outcasts in Voting at 5-4 votes in favor of Us.
The win of team depends upon the result of the voting.
If we win the voting, we win the debate and if we lose the voting, we get a draw.

So please vote for Tolkienologists!

[Lhunithiliel]

Me too!!!!!!! :D

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Did that, wise master! Although In my opinion even If I were a neutral I would have voted for us. We presented 0ur case brilliant, and hats off/caps off to everyone who participated in the first debate. :D

Edit: Guys right now, we are one vote ahead of Outcasts in Voting at 5-4 votes in favor of Us.
The win of team depends upon the result of the voting.
If we win the voting, we win the debate and if we lose the voting, we get a draw.

So please vote for Tolkienologists!

Hehe... caps off... I couldn't help but think of BranMuffin, the resident caps maniac :D.

thanks Beleg, in name of the team who did a wonderful job -- and let's support our next team!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Guys right now, we are one vote ahead of Outcasts in Voting at 5-4 votes in favor of Us.
Old news :p It's 6 to 4!!!!!!
But...
The win of team depends upon the result of the voting.
If we win the voting, we win the debate and if we lose the voting, we get a draw.

So please vote for Tolkienologists!
SO VOTE PEOPLE!!!!!!

V O T E ! ! ! :D

[Finduilas]

Hey,has the Second debate of our Guild started already? Because I don't seem to find it in the OiE Guild.:confused:

And where's the debate of which we are hosts?!!!:confused: :confused:

[Gil-Galad]

VOTE PEOPLE!
I read judges' opinions and I have mixed feelings about someone's thoughts,but anyaway,I do not want to offend anyone.
I want to thank to Eriol who did a great job,and I'm very happy that he joined our Guild on time!
I also want to notice Finduilas' wonderful participation.I worked together with her and I would say I'm impressed by her and I"m sure very soon she will be a great debator.

Concerning our hosting.I don't see where it is?
And something else,we should start preparing the team for the 3rd Round.I want to say that the 3rd and the 4th Rounds are the two of greatest difficulty and importance to us,so we have to make really great teams.That's is why I suggest in these rounds to participate only the best.The experience and abilities our opponents have are so much that I think in these two rounds "greenies"should not participate.
I know that some of you will say the Olympical principle claiming that participation is of greatest importance,not winning,but in that case we have great opponents.And having in mind we MUST defend our Guild's name we should do our best.The first thing is to make the best possible teams.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
VOTE PEOPLE!
I read judges' opinions and I have mixed feelings about someone's thoughts,but anyaway,I do not want to offend anyone.

Would those be my thoughts perchance - seeing how my vote was the only 'negative' vote pertaining to your guild of course? I thought both teams did an outstanding job, but the Outcasts impressed me more with their stance. Anything else that needs to be covered?

By the way, I'm not exactly thrilled at the idea of encouraging people to 'vote for your guild' just because it's your guild. I also doubt the majority of those that didn't participate in the debate will we be willing to read through the debate and decide justly. So, a rather nasty move, undoubtedly used by some in every guild.

[Gil-Galad]

Sad but true.
By the way, I'm not exactly thrilled at the idea of encouraging people to 'vote for your guild' just because it's your guild. I also doubt the majority of those that didn't participate in the debate will we be willing to read through the debate and decide justly. So, a rather nasty move, undoubtedly used by some in every guild.
What can we do?Not do anything?
The worst thing is that we have worked hard,we have done our best.......and what... the result depends not on persons who have read the whole debate and have thought carefully about it,but on persons who vote just because their Guild is participating.

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Sad but true.

What can we do?Not to do anything?
The worst thing is that we have worked hard,we have done our best.......and what... the result depends not on persons who have read the whole debate and have thought carefully about it,but on persons who vote just because their Guild is participating.

Yeah,I completely agree! Why are those judges when actually and finally it turns out that the judgement depends on the people voted?!

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
VOTE PEOPLE!
I read judges' opinions and I have mixed feelings about someone's thoughts,but anyaway,I do not want to offend anyone.
I want to thank to Eriol who did a great job,and I'm very happy that he joined our Guild on time!
I also want to notice Finduilas' wonderful participation.I worked together with her and I would say I'm impressed by her and I"m sure very soon she will be a great debator.

Concerning our hosting.I don't see where it is?
And something else,we should start preparing the team for the 3rd Round.I want to say that the 3rd and the 4th Rounds are the two of greatest difficulty and importance to us,so we have to make really great teams.That's is why I suggest in these rounds to participate only the best.The experience and abilities our opponents have are so much that I think in these two rounds "greenies"should not participate.
I know that some of you will say the Olympical principle claiming that participation is of greatest importance,not winning,but in that case we have great opponents.And having in mind we MUST defend our Guild's name we should do our best.The first thing is to make the best possible teams.

Thanks, GG... I just want to point out that our next encounter is a really tough one, as anyone who has read the Periaur vs. Scholars debate will attest. I will contribute "from the sidelines" as much as I can, but this is just a reminder that our 2nd debate can be as tough -- or tougher -- than the 3rd and 4th debates.

As for the voting problem, I also think it is awful. Yet, what can one do? Rules are rules. I hope everybody voting reads the debate and votes with their conscience.

[gate7ole]

Concerning the last posts urging the people to vote, I have to agree with ithrynluin and I might add that it may seem wrong by others. Of course I understand the meaning of it; not to force people to vote for our side, but to participate in the voting. But some may misunderstand it and we must be careful with such things. Anyway, since this certain debate would be finally judged by the poll, I think that some enthusiasm from our part is acceptable. I just don't find it just for the Outcasts since they don't have as many active members as we do.

About the next debates to come, we should be careful which ones we consider difficult and which we don't. I was surprised by the fact that a "favourite" the Scholars lost, considering that their side was easier to defend, which means that there are no "favourites" in the tournament.

[Eriol]

Rules that tempt people to be evil are evil in themselves... I was appalled when I heard that the poll would count as one vote, equal to the judges' votes. I see no sense in it. Of course the larger Guilds can easily turn up with an easy vote due to that. I hope this does not happen in this case, or in any other case, but who knows?

A not-so-good rule... and I don't want to sound as if I'm bashing Aulë, I talked to him about it and he -- mostly -- agrees with me. He is doing a wonderful (and difficult) job.

I would suggest that the polls could -- at most -- be used as a tie-breaker.

It seems I should have done some suggesting prior to the tournament :(. I had never thought about it before Lhun's invitation...

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Eriol
Thanks, GG... I just want to point out that our next encounter is a really tough one, as anyone who has read the Periaur vs. Scholars debate will attest. I will contribute "from the sidelines" as much as I can, but this is just a reminder that our 2nd debate can be as tough -- or tougher -- than the 3rd and 4th debates.

As for the voting problem, I also think it is awful. Yet, what can one do? Rules are rules. I hope everybody voting reads the debate and votes with their conscience.

You are right.There is not an easy debate.We should not underestimate anyone.
Let's say Good Luck
to the team which will participate in Round 2:
Anatamar
Mrs.Maggott
Lhunithiliel
Eol
I see there is no "greeny" in the team and that makes me sad.I hope that in the 5th Round there will be a "greeny" in the team.

Now let's start making the teams for Round 3 and 4:
according to the first list from the beginning of the thread the team for Round 3 should be:
Lhun
Gate7ole
Foat
Beleg
Lhun,do you have in mind if you participate in the 3rd Round,or you will prefer to take a rest and then take part in the 4th Round against GoiE?We'll need you in these tough debates.
And what will be the team for Round 4?I was amazed by Eriol's participation so I would like to invite him to the team for Round 4.
Eriol
????
????
????
Volunteers for the "Dream Team"?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Eriol
Rules that tempt people to be evil are evil in themselves... I was appalled when I heard that the poll would count as one vote, equal to the judges' votes. I see no sense in it. Of course the larger Guilds can easily turn up with an easy vote due to that. I hope this does not happen in this case, or in any other case, but who knows?


This rule was not thought up by Aulë, it is sort of a tradition of debating ever since it came into existence at TTF.

After all, the poll ONLY contributes one voice so noone can count only on that to win.

The poll is also there to provide some feedback from the general membership and thus contribute to the fairness and diversity of voting. Though it is quite obvious that this can be misused easily.

And do you think that judges cannot be bribed so to speak? Or at least influenced to some degree and so their judgement is clouded by some thing or other. It is a tough nut to crack really...

Not that I think this really happened but the possibility is open, just as manipulating the poll is.

[Gil-Galad]

You are right in a way,but I still think the judges should have the final word.

[Eriol]

Invitation provisionally accepted, GG -- unless I have to travel during the debate, I'll be there.

ithrynluin, you can perhaps answer some questions about the possibility of alleviating this problem. Is there any possibility of enforcing a rule such as "Thou shalt not vote in a debate involving your guild?". I mean, could the moderators enforce it, technically?

Another way would be using the polls only as tie-breakers, as I said earlier.

Yet another way would be to pre-select a number of "voters", as we do with the judges -- people who would remain anonymous, and only the moderators would know their identities; an equal number from each Guild would be selected, and a lot of people from other Guilds, or guild-less, would make up the bulk of this group. Is it feasible, technically?

In any way, the rules for this Tournament are already in place, any changes could only be used in the next Tournament.

As for collusion from the judges themselves, this is a risk we have to take. Sure they can be bribed, and we can't do nothing. Like in real life :D.

One thing which would improve matters would be to close the poll before the judges vote, I think. To keep the poll on after all judges have voted, and therefore to give "the people" the power to decide it, seems wrong. The judging thread would then be an opinion-free thread for, say, the first 5 days after the debate, and in the following two days the judges would post their opinions with the polls already closed. (conscientious judges should not look at the polls before voting - and this is not an impeachment on any judge, it is just human nature. People tend to vote on winners... any efforts to 'purify' the judgment must be welcomed.).

The difference between collusion from the judges and collusion from "the people" is that the judges are -- theoretically -- neutral, while "the people" is not. Sure a judge may be influenced, have his judgement clouded, etc., as you said, but an ordinary Tolkienologist or Outcast (in this case) has a much stronger incentive to vote for one particular guild, regardless of his opinion about the debate itself.

I can't really see a judge voting against his conscience due to bribes or influences. Perhaps his judgement will be clouded, yes, but if he has a clear idea of the winner I think he will vote accordingly -- and I fear this reasoning does not apply to the people in general :(.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Eriol
ithrynluin, you can perhaps answer some questions about the possibility of alleviating this problem. Is there any possibility of enforcing a rule such as "Thou shalt not vote in a debate involving your guild?". I mean, could the moderators enforce it, technically?

Another way would be using the polls only as tie-breakers, as I said earlier.


That would be pretty difficult to do, especially since a guild's membership is a flexible thing, and there is much going back and forth between members.

Another way would be using the polls only as tie-breakers, as I said earlier.

I heartily agree. Perhaps we should pass this on to the Tournament debate thread and see what others think?

[Eriol]

Well, if all Guilds agree, I think it is fine -- but I don't see how it can work without being retroactive in effect, otherwise we have debates being judged under differing rules. And if it is retroactive in effect, then the outcomes of some debates (including ours!) can be changed with the change in the rules. Is this acceptable?

I think the debate discussion thread is a good spot to argue this. Can you, o great moderator, repeat these posts there? Or link them?

:)

[Gil-Galad]

I like your ideas Eriol.I do hope they will be accepted in the Tournament debate thread.

I'm really glad to read you would like to join the team for Round 4.

[Beleg]

Volunteers for the "Dream Team"?

I am free during the times of the 4th and 5th debate, so you can put me in any team you wish.

And I believe that there should be five judges/three judges and the result of the debate should be based upon their opinion.
There can be pole for the general public but It should have no effect over the overall judging process of the debate.

[Lhunithiliel]

Count me in for any and / or all the following teams.
I will not be troubled to participate!

Why?! After so many days of leasure and feasting my brain is HUNGRY for some work and research! :D

[Lhunithiliel]

I am sure Team 2 has seen the topic of the new debate.

So, people, Rohan and Gondor - in the center of our research I think!
Who in the team will claim good understanding in war strategy, please? Because we'll need this, I assume.

Shall we meet on msn or through PM-s to at least decide the side we choose?:rolleyes:
*****

BTW, the Second round is announced to be 1-7 June. Yet, the host says one week starts from our first post... Besides, today is 2-nd June!

Call me stupid, but I don't get it :rolleyes: .....except of course if we show active attitude enough as to start the debate by an opening post tonight (European "tonight")... But we need time to prepare and ....what if we decide to ponder a few days more (till the end of the week, for example :p)?

[Aulë]

*taps foot, and looks at watch impatiently*

C'mon you slow-coaches, the Periaur have already prepared arguements to both sides of the arguement in preperation for your opening post.
We're waiting...;):p

[Mrs. Maggott]

Well, I haven't seen the new topic! Indeed, I don't even know where it is! I pm'd somebody asking where it was on the 31st only to be told that it hadn't been posted yet! So I still not only have not seen the topic or know which side we're on, but I don't even know where the blasted thing IS and I am beginning to lose interest in finding out! :confused:

[Beleg]

Here's the topic.

Debate{Tolkien vs Periaur} (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11971)

[Eriol]

Hey everybody, as some of you may have noticed, it is Eriol's bashing day (or is it week?) on the Debate Tournament.

I would find it extremely ironic (and I would get a good laugh of it in fact) if after all the thrashing I am getting, we lose the poll against the Outcasts. The result is 7-7 NOW, and we have less than 2 hours to do something about it!

So please, go to the threads, READ THE DEBATE :rolleyes:, and vote, guys.

[Finduilas]

I know it's not now the moment for this since everyone's busy with the present debates but I just want to say that I want to participate in the next debates and you can count me in.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Aulë
*taps foot, and looks at watch impatiently*

C'mon you slow-coaches, the Periaur have already prepared arguements to both sides of the arguement in preperation for your opening post.
We're waiting...;):p
LOL
You reminded me of the White Rabbit from Alice in Wonderland! :D
But.....Why?!?.... If you're so much in a hurry, open the debate then! :p ;) :D
Besides, didn't I promise you patience (i did not mention patience to whom and to what) ? :p

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Eriol
Hey everybody, as some of you may have noticed, it is Eriol's bashing day (or is it week?) on the Debate Tournament.

I would find it extremely ironic (and I would get a good laugh of it in fact) if after all the thrashing I am getting, we lose the poll against the Outcasts. The result is 7-7 NOW, and we have less than 2 hours to do something about it!

So please, go to the threads, READ THE DEBATE :rolleyes:, and vote, guys.
I went, I read, I voted (for our Guild, naturally and for reasons of quality, not merely sentiment.).

Now I would like to know which side the Guild wishes to defend in the debate about Eowyn was right to join the Rohirrim. I would suggest that we should defend rather than oppose, but I am definitely "new kid on the block" (despite my age), I shall defer to my betters!

Please, however, let me know the following:

1. which side we will be on?
2. do we intend to do any "brainstorming" before we post?
3. are we going to post in any order at least at the beginning of the debate?
4. are we all going to "rebut" arguments made by the other side or do we have rebut ninjas who take care of that aspect of the debate?

I have seen some of these questions already asked, but now that the topic has been posted, perhaps answers have already been decided by other members of the team and I would like to know what they are!

[Lhunithiliel]

Bravo, Mrs.Maggott!!!! :D

As for the questions.
My opinion I have PM-ed to you - I'm "for" , meaning that I'd rather defend the position: "Yes, she was right"
As for the order of the posts, it comes, IMHO, naturally.
I would however here openly and very kindly ask you to do the opening post.
Will you consent to this?

And before I answer the question # 4, please, will someone explain what the h*** doe it mean to "rebut"?:o :confused:

[Mrs. Maggott]

Rebuttal is simply the name given to answering the other side's arguments. This is done above and beyond simply making one's own arguments. For instance, if a member of team A posts that it says in the Sil. that Feanor was a miserable wretch, side B may counter by quoting the Sil where it says that Feanor was a genius and besides, he was justified in doing whatever side A has said was wrong - and so forth. Sometimes in a debate, one poster is given the job of "rebutting" arguments put forth by the other side. That person does not put forth his own points (he allows his team mates to do that), but he goes through the other side's posts and tries to poke holes in all fo their arguments.

Usually, rebuttals begin after each side has posted once and then end before the last or summary post. But as we are all permitted to post willy-nilly (if I understand it correctly) and don't have to wait for the other side to post before we respond and the debate simply "ends" on the day ordained, I would guess we won't have a summary post. Anyway, that is what rebuttals are. I hope this helps.

As for posting first, I did pm you on that matter and I await to see if my limitations time-wise today are a problem.

[Lhunithiliel]

Ah! But this IS a usual practice in a debate! :D

Anyway, Thank you!

And I PM-ed you back! ;) :)

********

BTW, I have just read the news - WE HAVE WON with 2 points gained for this First Round!

CONGRATULATIONS to TEAM 1 !!!!!! :D :D

[Mrs. Maggott]

Didst thee doubt?

Way to go, team 1!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
Didst thee doubt?

Way to go, team 1!
Not for an instant even! :D

They have deserved it!!!

[Eriol]

Yay!

Congratulations to our 7 voters :D

Good luck to the next team!

And let the other guild members READ the next debates and VOTE, ok guys?!

(That said, I will not utter another word about this matter.)

[Gil-Galad]

I must confess I'm totally disappointed with the way the winner is chosen.Actually it is a mockery with our works and the time we spent for it.I can't accept that some people who havenot read the debate vote the pole.Why do we have judges?To decide who is the winner.I believe they are the person who should do that.If the final decision doesnot depend on them,then what is the purpose of the judges?

[Gil-Galad]

The topic is not bad actually.GO GOT!

GOOD LUCK!

[Mrs. Maggott]

I must say that I agree. Judges should decide debate winners, not a poll of the membership unless it precludes members of both Guilds participating in the debate and is restricted to those whose vote indicates their unbiased choice of the better team. I voted for our Guild on what I thought were the better arguments, but I confess to being biased. I would not have voted at all - it seemed so dishonest - had I not realized that the other side might not be constrained by the same feeling as I had and we would have lost simply because more of their guys voted.

But this is no way to determine the winner of a debate since it simply ends up being a popularity contest rather than one of reason and skill. Frankly, I am involved in the present debate, but if a better system is not put in place, I don't know if I would care to commit my limited time to participate in future debates which are going to be determined in the end by who can get out the most votes and not who presents the best arguments!

[Ithrynluin]

I added a poll to this thread: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=319922#post319922

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Volunteers for the "Dream Team"?
If there are not any volunteers I would like to participate, although I will have participated in the 2/3 of the previous debates.

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey... What is this "Dream Team" ?:confused:

[Mrs. Maggott]

Well, I have made our first post in the new debate. I am not happy, but hopefully it might provide some little help for the rest of our excellent team. I wish I had known the topic longer than a few hours, but I know you all can overcome my shortcomings!

Help!!

[Eöl]

If you are not happy with that post, I do not think I will be happy with any of mine!!:)

[Mrs. Maggott]

I do not doubt its length, but I hope that its quality is worth that much verbiage! Remember, as some very intelligent person once said, "Brevity is the soul of wit." in which case, I am not even a half-wit! :rolleyes:

[FoolOfATook]

I don't know if I'd call Polonius intelligent... ;)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
I don't know if I'd call Polonius intelligent... ;)
Yes, but the fellow who put the words in his mouth certainly was. And the rest of P.'s charges to Laertes were certainly intelligent: neither a borrower nor a lender be, be true to yourself etc. None of them can be faulted. Let's hope that my post can be as "faultless" as P.'s advice! Then at least I shall feel I have started the debate off on the right foot for our Guild!

Otherwise...... :(

[Eriol]

I thought it was great, Mrs. M. The important thing in a first post is to set out the thesis quite clearly so that other members of the team can defend it. You did this exceptionably well-- our thesis is two pronged, and the main point is that there was no disobedience at all. The secondary point is that the disobedience had good results.

I don't think the Periaur expected this approach :).

Two-pronged arguments are the best. If they attack one we can swipe with the other :D.

Now we have to wait and check their thesis. We have a few aces up our sleeves still...

Or do we ? :eek:

;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Eriol

Now we have to wait and check their thesis. We have a few aces up our sleeves still...

Or do we ? :eek:;)
Oh, yes!!! We do! ;) :D
I have another....how do you call it...two-pronged argument ;), giving me the opportunity to "work" on either the one or the other or on both.

And Mrs.Maggott, wonderful, wonderful job! :D

[Aulë]

Mrs. Maggott,

May I suggest that you use the vB quote code when you refer to Tolkien's works in the debates?
It becomes hard to determine between what you are saying, and what Tolkien has said, otherwise.
(And it makes it look neater too ;) )

[Lhunithiliel]

Mrs.Maggott, I think what Aule suggests is to separate quotes and use some other features that we can use when posting especially when a debate is in view.
If you need any help on this, I'd be glad to help! :)

And Aule, please, be gentle on our guild-fellow and show some understanding. ;) She has many times stated that she can type her posts all right but she is not too much familliar with the software opportunities this vB-code provides. OK?

[Mrs. Maggott]

I do have great difficulties in the assorted softwear (I think that's the word) abilities. For instance, I did the post off site and transferred it (which was a pain in and of itself since I had to divide it because of it's length). I indented the margins of the quotes off site in hopes that format would also appear on site, but alas, it did not. I then considered trying to change font or size or something else, but most of these things cannot be "inserted", they have to be done as the thing is typed or you have to know whatever codes they require to make the text follow that format. I know the codes for italics (the little bracket thingys with the capital "I" and the / at the end), so these were typed in during my creation of the post off site (which was a colossal pain!). But I had no idea how to change size or color on site to differentiate the quotes or to change the margins indenting to indicate a quote - and frankly, I still don't! So rather than take a chance on screwing up four pages of post, I simply left it as is and put "s around the quotes with the reference at the end to the quote's source. I'm sorry, but that's the best I could do! Readers will simply have to exert a little effort here - just as I did.

[Gil-Galad]

What can I say about Mrs.Maggott's post?!I'm really really impressed.........It wasn't good enough?!OMG I think this post will give us great advantage in future,when we have to develop our thesis.:)

[Mrs. Maggott]

I hoped to briefly touch most (if not all) of the bases and allow the rest of you to rebut and develop whatever part of it you think tells the story best. I did not, however, go into great detail about the fact that without Eowyn's presence on the battlefield which resulted in the Captain of the Ringwraith's death (final death?), the day would surely have been lost since his very presence assured victory to the enemy. But the dumb thing was long enough so I will let my betters develop what I only mentioned.

Go Tolkienologists!

[Gil-Galad]

..and what about Lhun's posts?!Go Guild mommy!:)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Okay! I have been given some relatively simple instructions by someone to see if I can do the "quote" thingy and this is going to be my attempt to perform computer magic. If it doesn't work out....

The quick red fox jumped over the lazy brown dog.

Now let's see if that worked, shall we?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Well! And they say an old dog can't learn new tricks! Now, does anyone think I should go back and edit the first post this way? Obviously it can be done, but I don't want to annoy the judges by either doing it or not doing it. I await your judgment.

And your help - and thanks Idril for the new toy!

[Arvedui]

If you feel like editing your post, go ahead.
As host, I guess I have absolute power in such matters?;) :D

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Arvedui
If you feel like editing your post, go ahead.
As host, I guess I have absolute power in such matters?;) :D
I cannot say as "I feel like it"; it was, after all, a long and tedious process to produce it in the first place.

However, I would like some input as to whether it would be considered a courtesy to the judges, the other team and the various readers to do so or if it would simply be annoying at this point in time. Doing extra work that turns out to be counterproductive is not high on my agenda of "things to do"! Hence my request for comments...

[Arvedui]

It was Aulë that brought up the request/proposal, and he is one of your opponents, so I guess it would be to the benefit of the other team.

Probably not the best reason, eh? ;)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Actually, insofar as we are speaking of format here and not debate points, I have no problem accommodating the other team. If it is a courtesy and will make it better all round to edit and "try" (and the operative word here is "try") to isolate the quotes (which, as noted I did try to do in my first attempt), then I will be happy to accommodate all concerned. However, I certainly do not wish to annoy anyone (as, for instance, the judges) who might consider it "tampering" with something already posted. Again, I will ask for comments as to which is the preferable thing to do: let it stay as it is, or go back and edit to try to isolate the quotes.

[Arvedui]

I would not consider it tampering. I have read your post(s) and I think I will notice if something changes, and I bet the other team will too;)
It is my opinion that it will look better.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Well, I have edited my post for formatting purposes alone. No text was touched although I saw about 80,000 things that should have been said better, differently or not at all - but it's up to my superior team mates to save the day.

However, having said that, at least it is easier to read as I have isolated the quotes. Hopefully, I shall remember that lesson in the future.

Again, thanks to Idril for the knowledge and to my long-suffering and forebearing Guild members!

[Lhunithiliel]

I have just understood that there is a request on part of the Periaur that the topic of the debate should be changed!!!!

:eek:

[Nóm]

In my opinion it is too late to do so. I think if there was an objection to the topic it should have been before the debate started.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Followed your post in actual debate thread Lhun and posted this which, of course, was wrong since it was the debate thread itself (I thought I was in this thread! So, anyway, I cut it and am now pasting it here!

Absolutely not!! I didn't spend all the time and effort I did on that first post just to change topics! Everyone knew the topic at the same time and we were given our choice of which side. The other Guild should have decided not to accept the topic if they believed that they could not defend whichever side remained after we chose.

All I know is this: if this topic is changed, you will have to find someone else to participate in inter-Guild debates from now on. I was doing my actual typing service work well into the wee hours of the morning because I took the time from that to develop and post in a professional and timely manner in this debate. I did not wish to let my fellow Guild members down and I had been asked to post first.

I'm sorry if the other side is having a problem countering our debate points, but that's all in the game! They should do the best they can and go from there as we would do had we failed to change a topic before time ran out on our decision whether or not to accept it.

I have nothing to say, of course, in this, but I cannot do another post like the first one in the same debate, nor will I participate in a debate forum where the premise can be changed willy-nilly after so much time and effort has gone into the original. I'm sorry if this sounds cranky, but, frankly, I sure in bloody blue blazes will be "cranky" and MORE than cranky if the premise is changed at this late date! :mad:

[Lhunithiliel]

I guess there is some sort of a Committee to decide such matters...
The point is we should have been informed about it .

I myself understand how difficult it must be for the Periaur to find arguments for the position they had been left with after our choice, but still I think that we (at least I personally) would have NOT objected if the topic was changed , had such a request been put forward earlier.

Now...what is to be done I wonder?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Well, as I have just posted on the debate thread, if there were members on our side who were not happy with the debate topic - it was too easy I'm informed, and they would have preferred something "more challanging" - I have given them my blessing to participate in the new debate because I will be far too busy making up the time I wasted participating in this one.

[Anamatar IV]

I wasn't happy with the debate topic but not because it was too easy. It just wasn't ambigious. There was no second side to it. It's like debating who was the farmer of Frodo, Sam or Merry? You can't think with this debate topic. In other debate topics, if the other team convinces you, you believe their side. But in this topic, even if the other team is more convincing, there is no way to believe their view.:(

Err but I do think it is too late to restart the debate...I just don't like the topic.

[Elendil3119]

As an independent observer, I believe that the debate topic should NOT be changed. The Periaur had no problem with the topic before the GoT posted, and there should be no problem with it now, even if the GoT has the easier side. There is an easier side in every debate! It's too late to change it now. If the Periaur had a problem with the topic, they should have said so BEFORE the debate started!!!

[Eriol]

Still on the subject of rules for the next Tournament...

To avoid such an impasse, I think the non-host Guild must speak, within a time-limit, as to the acceptability of the topic -- say, one day. After this time-limit there would be no turning back. The host Guild has no such need, since it controls the timing of the first post; it can simply refuse to post until it has decided whether the topic is acceptable.

Usually the first topic takes as much time to be posted, so this would not mean any great delays.

I won't comment on the present problem, I just think this could be an idea for the next tournament.

[Mrs. Maggott]

This shall be my last post on this matter since I have certainly made my point clear. However, consider the following:

1. the debate was supposed to start on Sunday, June 1st.

2. the thread was not posted on that day nor early on Monday the 2nd but the topic was known because Aule posted on the debate/discussion thread (this thread) on the 2nd saying that his Guild had already developed arguments on both sides and where were we.

3. I had been asked to post first and I found the debate thread on the 3rd and posted late on that day.

4. On the following day, I was instructed how to format my quotations to make them more readable. The original complaint had come from the other Guild and I was happy to go to my post and take the time necessary to reformat all four of the posts that encompassed my whole argument.

During all of that time, no one said anything that I was able to read - and certainly nothing to me directly - about the topic. In fact, I had to ask Lhun which side we were going to be on (since I was posting first and didn't want to argue the other side's point for them). I wished to support the premise that Eowyn was correct as did Lhun, so I moved on from that point and developed my post. She had mentioned to me in a pm that she had decided not to tell the other Guild which side we were taking since it was apparently the first post of the host Guild which established that fact.

There was more than enough time to consider the topic and obviously the Guild of the Periaur had already considered how to develop both positions if Aule was not just trying to frighten us! I am sure that no one in our Guild would have minded if the debate had been delayed for the consideration of another topic if this one had been unsatisfactory to either side. But at this point in the debate, it would seem to me that we are setting a precedent that we may regret in days to come. But again, the choice is not mine and I will abide by the majority decision or whatever other means by which such matters are decided.

[Ithrynluin]

I concur with Mrs. M's points. This may serve as a little reminder in future debates, as for this one nothing should be changed now. Not all teams choose the easier side - e.g. the Outcasts chose the more difficult side in the first round because they thought it would be more challenging and fun (as proved to be the case). It's not ALL about winning and losing. :)

[Arvedui]

I wasn't happy with the debate topic but not because it was too easy. It just wasn't ambigious. There was no second side to it.

Like Sauron, your pride will cause your downfall.

And if so happens, that this debate runs out in the sand in its standing presence, I'll be happy to continue against you or the team. Not as a part of the Tournament, of course...

And if your opponents get going, there will be no need.

Challenge issued!

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Like Sauron, your pride will cause your downfall.

And if so happens, that this debate runs out in the sand in its standing presence, I'll be happy to continue against you or the team. Not as a part of the Tournament, of course...

And if your opponents get going, there will be no need.

Challenge issued!

Hehe, good quote Arvedui...

Can I join your challenge?

[Lhunithiliel]

I would very much wish to ask the other members of our team... WHAT TO DO NOW?

Shall we continue posting our observations and arguments for the side we chose or...:confused: :rolleyes:

[Ithrynluin]

Well it all depends on what the Periaur will do next. You've done your share fair and square so far.

[Idril]

Lhun - as a judge it would be nice if someone finished up the debate. I would sincerely like to see what else you'd prepared :). It's not fair to your team to not be 'heard' out. You would have the position of having done your bit so to speak. But I'm not from your guild - so feel free to ignore me.

Has the Periaur team stated it's current position in this debate? Or have they forfeited?

[Lhunithiliel]

Eh, well, but this topic has become so largely disputed that quite a lot of people have already stated their willingness to continue the debate in "neutral waters" after the time of the present "official" one expires.
My point is - why continue providing arguments "pro" and thus "arm" the one who will take the same side in the new debate with our "arms"! :p :p :p :D

I'd understand if we are having a normal debate....but in this situation...:confused:

You know, friends Periaur, I was so much AFRAID to meet you on this debate after your successes! ;) :D I was expecting such a fight!
Pity!!!:(

[Idril]

Perhaps you can just then post a closing argument, thus completing your side of the debate.

[Lhunithiliel]

Hmmm.... I'd wait to read some other opinions...
Besides, what if someone from them finally decides to post?

Arvedui, please, I know you're counting the seconds ;) :D
Can you tell us how much time is there left for this poor poor debate! :(

[Mrs. Maggott]

Well, I posted the opening argument and I would prefer if another member of the team did the summary conclusion or it will rather seem as if the debate is a study in egotism on my part.

I would like to thank Niniel for her response to my post and anyone else who has posted on both sides. I think the subject could have been further developed along perhaps more tangential lines, but as it is already Saturday and the debate was supposed to be 7 days long, I imagine there is no time to look into the matter.

However, this is just to notify my Guild Mistress, my fellow Guild members, our worthy opponents and our illustrious judges that I will not be posting the summary conclusion for the Guild of Tolkienologists. I am sure there are members of my team who have yet to post in the debate at all and will be able to accomplish our concluding post in a manner worthy of our Guild.

Thank you.

[Eöl]

I have a post prepared, it's not a summary but I would be more than happy to make the summary as I haven't posted yet.:( I didn't think it was a very good idea to post 2 days, right after the whole shenanigan started. I apologize for not contributing!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Eöl
I have a post prepared, it's not a summary but I would be more than happy to make the summary as I haven't posted yet.:( I didn't think it was a very good idea to post 2 days, right after the whole shenanigan started. I apologize for not contributing!
Speaking only for myself, you can hardly be blamed for not posting given the bruhaha that has blown up in the debate!

However, I would like to make one suggestion given the unfortunate state of affairs and that is that the premise for the debate should be made known to both teams at least two to three days before the debate is scheduled to begin. I have no problem with the host team choosing its side first, but if there are a couple of days to kick the proposed topic around, this sort of thing probably will not happen again.

And the second suggestion is that the "premise proposers", those of us who think up these brain teasers, should have another premise at the ready to replace any premise that has been rejected. However, as that replacement premise would only be available on the date the debate starts, then there would be no choice but for both teams to accept it. Thus, the teams would have the option to reject only the first premise, but once having done so, they would have to take their chances with the replacement topic. This "pig in a poke" replacement would assure that no premise would be "dismissed out of hand" without a very good reason since the possibility would exist that the replacement premise might be worse!

Just a thought!

[Lhunithiliel]

Go, Eol! :D
If needed, count on me too!

And Mrs.Maggott, you did such a wonderful job! Thank you! :)

[Gil-Galad]

hmhm........I'm very sorry the things happened so,but I think the GoP had enough time to do something.Mrs.Maggott is right.Nobody said anything in the beginning.They should have reacted earlier.Anyway.

Round 3 is coming,and we need to make the next team.
The team so far is:
Lhun
Gate7ole
FOAT
Beleg
will you confirm it guys.Round 3 is going to be a tough one so we need the best members to defend our Guild's name.

[Lhunithiliel]

I'm in .... if I'm wanted :o

[FoolOfATook]

Round 3 is going to be a tough one so we need the best members to defend our Guild's name.

I don't know if my name belongs here, but I'm most definitely in.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
I don't know if my name belongs here, but I'm most definitely in.
On the previous page, Took, on the previous page!!!! :P :D
Yoes, you're on the list. :D

[Beleg]

*Checking In*

[gate7ole]

I’m in.
That makes the team complete. Good luck to us and let’s have some fun debating (and not arguing ;) ).

[Arvedui]

The debate round 2, does not close until Wednesday, June 11th, at 14:00 PM (GMT).

I don't really know if there is any more can say about that.

No matter what happens further on, I will commence judgement then.

The Tolkienologists must first of all think of their present debate, and NOT care about a hypotheticle one perhaps to come later.


And Eriol, you are welcome! Of course!

[Beleg]

The Tolkienologists must first of all think of their present debate, and NOT care about a hypotheticle one perhaps to come later.

If I understand anything we are only asking the member that whether they will be able to participate in the next debate or not, a formal question, standard guild procedure...something I don't think has anything to do with the ongoing debate and will have no effect on it.

[Arvedui]

I see. Making a fool of myself again, am I.

I was replying to this post from Lhun:
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Eh, well, but this topic has become so largely disputed that quite a lot of people have already stated their willingness to continue the debate in "neutral waters" after the time of the present "official" one expires.
My point is - why continue providing arguments "pro" and thus "arm" the one who will take the same side in the new debate with our "arms"! :p :p :p :D

I'd understand if we are having a normal debate....but in this situation...:confused:

You know, friends Periaur, I was so much AFRAID to meet you on this debate after your successes! ;) :D I was expecting such a fight!
Pity!!!:(

I'll try to be a bit clarer the next time. Sorry.:(

[Gil-Galad]

I'm glad to hear that the team for Round 3 is complete.What a team I would say!:) :p ;) :cool:

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Arvedui
The debate round 2, does not close until Wednesday, June 11th, at 14:00 PM (GMT).
It was MOST clearly stated!!!
And all of a sudden the debate thread is closed for no further replies! :eek:

I want to ask:

WILL THERE BE AT LEAST ONE THING RIGHT ABOUT THIS DEBATE??????!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

[Mrs. Maggott]

I would not be concerned, nor would I "hassle" the judges. This debate has been as difficult on them as on us since they, too, were "blindsided" by the request to change topics after the debate began.

In any event, we made our points, they made theirs. It's now up to the judges to determine who had the better argument.

[Gil-Galad]

From the whole mess I did not understand one thing.Did we win the first Round.It seemed to me that we did,but today Fiduilas told me ,while we were walking with our dogs,that it was not decided who was the winner.It all depended on the 5th judge.Is that correct.I hope she was wrong,cause if she wasn't I would say I'm really angry with all those problems in every round so far.:mad:

[Aulë]

You need not worry.
Baragund (the 5th judge) voted for the Tolkienologists.

Therefore you have a greater win than you had before. :)

I suggest you read his judgement post. He put a LOT of effort into it (Need I mention that he printed out a hard-copy of the debate, which took up 41 pages!!!:eek: )

[Gil-Galad]

Yeah it was a tough debate.41 pages is enough......;)

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
I would not be concerned, nor would I "hassle" the judges. This debate has been as difficult on them as on us since they, too, were "blindsided" by the request to change topics after the debate began.

In any event, we made our points, they made theirs. It's now up to the judges to determine who had the better argument.

Hopefully, the only judge thatmay have been blindsided by the unfortunate event in the middle of the debate, may have been me, as the debate-thread was cleaned out (until the end, that is), and I think that I am the only one that have been watching the bickering in both forums and PM's. Especially PM's.

Now, I was hoping that this was over, and we at least could have peace and quiet when making our minds up, but no! Gil-Galad comes barging into the judgement thread, obiously angry about something. The ONLY way I can read his post, is that he think that reem's judgement is a parody.

Get this straight once and for all: ANY attempt at trying to influence the work of the judges, either in the debate thread, or in the judgement thread, will not work in favour of the guild that tries that tactics.

[Lhunithiliel]

It is over.... Let it be... As for the judgement of the 2-nd debate, there are 4 more judges. I hope they will not take their job in a simillar haste as reem.

Now, I DO NOT oppose reem's judgment!!!
He/she has formed up his/her opinion and has spoken it out. OK.
His/her right!

I suggest ANY comments concerning the work of the judges to be held back for the moment.
AFTER the final results, we may discuss it.

(But hold on, Tolkienologists!! Master Took is soon to take up the job of the Tournament Coordinator. Then we will be able to change the rules as and whenever it pleases us :p ;) We have had wonderful examples of that, haven't we?!? )

[Arvedui]

No, let's not be hasty:D

And do not judge reem too soon.
Her post might have been short, but I can assure you that she have taken the debate and her responsibilities VERY seriously.

Unfortunately she have experienced a computer failure, and have been posting her judgement from a computer where she can't spend all the time she might wish.

And i assure you that we are taking this seriously: I have in front of me some 80+ sheets of paper (I should have used the 'printer-friendly option;) ) with the debate printed out, and I am about to go through it for the third time.

Know what? It turned out to be a jolly good debate after all. Thanks.:)

[Idril]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Hopefully, the only judge thatmay have been blindsided by the unfortunate event in the middle of the debate, may have been me, as the debate-thread was cleaned out (until the end, that is), and I think that I am the only one that have been watching the bickering in both forums and PM's.

You're not alone Arvedui, I too have been following the events in arising from this dabate :D

And i assure you that we are taking this seriously: I have in front of me some 80+ sheets of paper with the debate printed out,

80 pages! *shudders* I was considering printing a hard copy - oh dear:(. I shall have to plant a tree to replace the one this debate will use:)

Be assured I will consider the points raised on both sides as I'm sure all the judges will do or have done. Please everyone, don't drag the judges into this fracas. We are trying to be as fair as we possible can.

I'll be too scared to post my judgement now;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Idril, Arvedui,

I respect the judges' job very much and I hope this debate would be judged taken into consideration every and all aspects!

I have explicitly asked the members of the Guild to hold their commentaries back for AFETR it is all over. I am sure they will follow my request.

(And please, people, why don't you let me insert some salt-and-pepper into my comments? I won't bite! I'm not being nasty! ;) :D :D )

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
(But hold on, Tolkienologists!! Master Took is soon to take up the job of the Tournament Coordinator. Then we will be able to change the rules as and whenever it pleases us :p ;) We have had wonderful examples of that, haven't we?!? )

Examples???
Please show me some.
I'd love to know what 'rules' I've changed to 'influence' this debate.
I honestly can't recall anything.


And please, Lhun/GG/Rest of GoT, stop whining about this debate. You're making yourselves look like a bunch of whingers. It's quite tiresome.
The debate is OVER, so please try to pick up your act.

[Lhunithiliel]

Trying to provoke us, Aule?

Na! It won't work!

Right Tolkienologists? :D
*****

People, Tolkienologists, isn't it time for a little round of "visits" to the Halls of the Periaur? ;) :p Look how often they peep into our friendly and open halls! And what do they come with?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Hopefully, the only judge thatmay have been blindsided by the unfortunate event in the middle of the debate, may have been me, as the debate-thread was cleaned out (until the end, that is), and I think that I am the only one that have been watching the bickering in both forums and PM's. Especially PM's.

Now, I was hoping that this was over, and we at least could have peace and quiet when making our minds up, but no! Gil-Galad comes barging into the judgement thread, obiously angry about something. The ONLY way I can read his post, is that he think that reem's judgement is a parody.

Get this straight once and for all: ANY attempt at trying to influence the work of the judges, either in the debate thread, or in the judgement thread, will not work in favour of the guild that tries that tactics.
I sincerely hope that my comments both on this and the debate thread were seen only as what they were: an attempt to end the dispute. At no time were they ever intended to "influence" the judges one way or the other. My comment on this thread may have seemed less "conciliatory" but that was because it was not in the debate thread proper and I was only hoping to forestall any further bickering as already noted.

As a "post-scriptum", I was unaware that members could "monitor" personal messages between forum members (other than themselves, that is); I thought they were private (hence the "personal" appellation). However, obviously, Arvedui was able to keep abreast of that part of this dispute that arose via that particular conduit. Will wonders never cease?

[Arvedui]

I'm sorry if I gave someone any false impression: I am not, and I mean NOT able to read other people's PM's.
But my own PM box is rather full at the moment, and 90% of those are related to this debate. Which, I think, is quite naturally, since so much ifs and buts arose.

So be at ease. I have never read any person's PM's other than my own. And even if there was such an option, I have more than enough to take care of on my own behalf, than start messing with other peoples Private Messages.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Arvedui
I'm sorry if I gave someone any false impression: I am not, and I mean NOT able to read other people's PM's.
But my own PM box is rather full at the moment, and 90% of those are related to this debate. Which, I think, is quite naturally, since so much ifs and buts arose.

So be at ease. I have never read any person's PM's other than my own. And even if there was such an option, I have more than enough to take care of on my own behalf, than start messing with other peoples Private Messages.
I was not worried about anyone reading pm's - other than those for whom they were intended since, frankly all of my private correspondence here and elsewhere is so dull I'm thinking of making it into audio books and selling it as a replacement for Sominex! I was just interested that one could be "aware" of the "flow" of messages.

However, I was concerned that my attempts at conciliation might be seen as an attempt to influence the judges in their voting. Rest assured, it was not in any way meant for such a purpose, or indeed for any purpose other than to cool tempers and restore amity.

[Lhunithiliel]

Tolkienologists, please read
THIS THREAD (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=324346#post324346) !

It is very important for the grand event - the Debate Tournament and your opinions would be appreciated! :)

[Gil-Galad]

hm............... I asked myself,why Eriol wasn't among those who made the rules of the Tournament..........Perfect work.

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
hm............... I asked myself,why Eriol wasn't among those who made the rules of the Tournament..........Perfect work.

And now I wonder who actually made them:confused: .
Who was the organiser of the rules and everything else or were they more than one?

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Finduilas
And now I wonder who actually made them:confused: .
Who was the organiser of the rules and everything else or were they more than one?
...........That's not so important.Now the things should be changed as soon as possible.Round 1 and Round 2 were real nigtmare for our Guild,if we have in mind organization,etc....I do think some changes MUST be done.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Well, well well. It would seem those in our Guild who believed that the topic of the last debate was "too easy" must be rethinking their position. It seems that not many of our members came forth to defend my opening post which - according to this problems it raised with our adversaries - made a clear cut and cogent argument defending our position and as a result, apparently the other Guild will be the winners of this debate. It's really too bad because all of the information was there to be developed but I did not wish to develop it myself - although I did put in two rebuttal posts as I believed that my arguments were being misrepresented by the other side.

Perhaps we would have won this debate if all those who thought that it wasn't worth arguing had put in a little more effort to do so. As it is, I know that I did my best and I really don't know if anyone else could have done better. However, if they could have, they certainly didn't.

Congratulations, GoP. Too bad it leaves such a bad taste in my mouth.

[Lhunithiliel]

Come, come, Mrs.Maggott!!!

The day of the Tournament is still young. We shall have plenty of other debates to participate in and to master our skills of debating. :)

After all, this is all just to make our brains alive and active researching Tolkien! This is the greatest merit of such activites!

So, when is the next Round where our team is supposed to participate?

I hope we have a decent debate with the Schollars!

[Lhunithiliel]

I saw a debate from Round 3 already going on.

Does anybody know anything about our next debate, except that we are to meet the Schollars?

Their team is:

baragund
Elendil3119
Maedhros
Idril

Although Idril's participation is under doubt.

Edit for change in their team:

baragund
Elendil3119
Maedhros
Inderjit S

[Beleg]

Chymera has....sort of disappeared.

[Gil-Galad]

Maedhros,
Inderjit S!!!
MAMA MIA! it will be a tough debate.Good luck to all Tolkienologists from our team!And yes Chymera seems to be somewhere but not here.She even hasn't answer me to some question I asked her.

[Lhunithiliel]

Hehe, I can imagine how much the respectable Canadian GENTLEMAN known here under the name "Chymera" will laugh when he learns he's been considered a F-gender :D
(Kidding, G-G ...but he is HE!)
:D