Tolkien's Sources: Myths and History

[Walter]

What I would like to discuss here is the historical and mythological context Tolkien has placed his "Middle-earth" in and what his literary influences were.

[Inderjit S]

I am not an expert on Tolkien's influences etc. but I would like to point out two excelent sources'-'The Lost Road; HoME 5' in which Tolkien links M-E with other legends and 'Guide to Names in LoTR' is a invaluable resource for such matters,whilst the 'footnotes' for HoME esp, 6-9 contain some info.

We can start by looking at Alboin (HoME 5), is this not a semi-biographical look at Tolkien's early life?

[Beleg]

. but I would like to point out two excelent sources'-'The Lost Road; HoME 5' in which Tolkien links M-E with other legends and

I was going to point out the link in Lost Road, but I saw that Inderjit beat me to that. :)

Now, I am no scholar, no journeyman, no expert but just an ordinary student, who has little or no information concerning Certain Germanic, Nordic myths of which Tolkien was so enmoured off.

We can start by looking at Alboin (HoME 5), is this not a semi-biographical look at Tolkien's early life?

Yes, Perhaps.
IMO when Tolkien started writing Lost Road, he had in his mind, something that would relate closely to the modern day world, but also have some seeds in it that can be explored and expanded in the Mythology he had created formerly. Now, I haven't read the Lost Road beyond the First Chapter, (I was in the process of reading it earlier today)

claim of wanting to create an "English Mythology", what influences he would have had to "represent" somehow, and when these events (of the LotR and the Sil) could have taken place on our Earth.
IMO Tolkien did try to create a subtle English atmosphere in the Story Last Road, well atleast in the first chapter it seems like this.
it contains elements which I have always felt were integeral parts of the English Atmosphere. The story tries to walk in accordance with the modern world, or the modern world Tolkien saw himself in, but because he is writing a story which is basically not a child's story, his trends shifts towards introducing foriegn elements in the story. I think he just couldn't help it. He had fallen in love with the Old English and Nordic myths and i think however much he tried, he couldn't keep the old english element out of his writing. Well that's what i felt. Due to the intervention of the foriegn elements, I have always felt that Tolkien's stories are a bit more rustic, compared to other writers of his time. I have always viewed the English Rural society as strict, with no-nonsense attitude and a strict regard for preservation. But Tolkien's flavour in Nordic languages IMO has diluted his writing style. He might try to portray the English Villages, but somehow or the other, the description doesn't fit in, it seems so Alien, so unlike the other English writers I have read.
A perfect example for this is the Unpublished Prologue of HOME9.
Shire, I guess is primarily based on Rural England. I have always regarded the English to be strict and according-to-rules with their children. But the way Tolkien portrays the Gamgee childrens, well...they seem so Un-British like. Well that's my opinion.

Now, I was probably raving on in most parts, I haven't yet acquire enough eloquation in English to express myself specifically in the Language but the cream of my thinking is that,

Whether or Not Tolkien try to portray the English Envoirnment,but his description is always filled with foriegn elements, which somehow or the other don't always give the typical English touch in his writing.

[Inderjit S]

IMO when Tolkien started writing Lost Road, he had in his mind, something that would relate closely to the modern day world, but also have some seeds in it that can be explored and expanded in the Mythology he had created formerly. Now, I haven't read the Lost Road beyond the First Chapter, (I was in the process of reading it earlier today)

Didn't he also ascribe his writing of the fall of Numenor as a deal, so to speak struck between him and C.S Lewis. Lewis would write about space and Tolkien about time, as he says on one of his letters, which is reproduced close to the start of the book.

Beleg, I think that the 'English village' feel was captured in his early Lost Tales mythology, (Cottage of the Last Play) in which C.T describes the similarities between a lot of places mentioned in BoLT and rural England, places like Staffordshire and Oxfordshire. This, was in part continued into LoTR, the Shire being very much like rural England and he says in one of his letters that the Old Forest/Bombadil capture the feel of the Oxfordshire countryside? I'm a bit hazy on this, so if wrong correct me.

But the way Tolkien portrays the Gamgee childrens, well...they seem so Un-British like

But remember he was writing this 60 odd yrs ago and so maybe it reflected contempary rural British life at THAT time period? They certainly weren't 'British' in appearance, the Gamgee's being a part of the 'nut-brown skinned' Harfoot clan. 'Gamgee' is also a British surname:

Gamgee. A surname found in England, though uncommon. I do not know its origin; it does not appear to be English. It is also a word for 'cotton-wool' (now obsolescent but known to me in childhood), derived from the name of S. Gamgee Guide to names of LoTR

Again I HIGHLY recommend 'Guide to names of LoTR', heres another piece of info. I scooped up through a quick glance:

Hardbottle. In the Shire; the home of the Bracegirdles in the North Farthing (not on the map). -bottle is an English place-name element, Old English BoLT, variant of bold (from which modern English build is derived), meaning '(large) dwelling'; it is not connected with bottle (glass container). Compare Nobottle on the small Shire-map, which is an actual place-name in England (Northumberland).

The 'Letters of J.R.R Tolkien' would also be a good source.

A quick note, didn't Tolkien take some 'names' from something called the Eddai something? I remember reading of some of the Dwarves names, (Ori etc) and GANDALF ,which according to the 'Annotated Hobbit' was the original name for Thorin Oakenshield.

Beoewulf was also a large influence. In HoME 7, C.T comments on Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli's entrance into Edoras as similar to a scene in Beowulf. 'Beorn' was also a character in Beowulf, I think. sorry if I sound out of my depth. :(

[Beleg]

sorry if I sound out of my depth.
You sound very much In-depth:p Thanks for the Info.
One Question, In which Volume is this List to Name of LOTR found? or Is it a seperate book?

QUOTE]Didn't he also ascribe his writing of the fall of Numenor as a deal, so to speak struck between him and C.S Lewis.[/QUOTE]
In February 1968 my father addressed a commentary to the authors of an article about him (The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien no. 294). In the course of this he recorded that 'one day' C. S. Lewis said to him that since 'there
is too little of what we really like in stories' they would have to try to write some themselves. He went on:
he should try 'space-travel', and I should try 'time- travel'. His result is well known. My effort, after a few promising chapters, ran dry: it was too long a way round to what I really wanted to make, a new version of the Atlantis legend. The final scene survives as The Downfall of Numenor.*
[This, was in part continued into LoTR, the Shire being very much like rural England and he says in one of his letters that the Old Forest/Bombadil capture the feel of the Oxfordshire countryside? I'm a bit hazy on this, so if wrong correct me. He my well have said that, but except for a few places, it doesn't quite portray the picture of Rural England that I have in mind. Yes, perhaps some of his work is England Oriented, but because his major influences originates from the Nordic/Germanic/Old-English (Am i correct in this?) writings, some of the elements sneak in stories which are to be termed as Englicized ones. So, I guess his work is a mixture of English themes and other idea's he captured while reading alien elements.

But remember he was writing this 60 odd yrs ago and so maybe it reflected contempary rural British life at THAT time period?
Perhaps, when I wrote the contradiction, I was thinking about Hardy and the other contemparory writers of his time, and the way they used rustics...I haven't yet had the honor of reading any British writter contempraroy of Tolkien. (If you don't count Blyton that is) Also whether he could have been serious with his claim of wanting to create an "English Mythology", what influences he would have had to "represent" somehow, and when these events (of the LotR and the Sil) could have taken place on our Earth.

His claim was of creating an English Mythology, but he ended up creating a mix bag. Yes, he represented the influence in many ways. The Culture of Rohan, an example of the Anglo-Saxons, The references from the Beauwolf the Concept of Middle-Earth; his whole mythology was based around these foriegn elements, and he blended these elements in the typical English feel.

Another point,
In Skimming HOME5, I found this passage,

In Norse mythology the name of the goddess Nerthus survives in that of the god Njorth, father of Freyr. Njorth was especially associated with ships and thesea; and in very early writing of my father's Xeorth briefly appears for Ulmo

What say you about this?

[Inderjit S]

You sound very much In-depth Thanks for the Info.

Seperate book. If you want I can P.M to you where you can get it from. ;)

He my well have said that, but except for a few places, it doesn't quite portray the picture of Rural England that I have in mind. Yes, perhaps some of his work is England Oriented, but because his major influences originates from the Nordic/Germanic/Old-English (Am i correct in this?) writings, some of the elements sneak in stories which are to be termed as Englicized ones. So, I guess his work is a mixture of English themes and other idea's he captured while reading alien elements

Also-and there is hope I shall not sound absurd-I was from the early days grieved ny the poverty of my own country: it had no stories of it's own bound up with it's tounge and soil, not of the quality that i sought (and found) in legends of other lands. THERE WAS GREEK, AND CELETIC, AND ROMANCE, GERMANIC, SACANDINAVIAN AND FINNISH (Which greatly effect me) but nothing English, save impovrished chap-book stuff..... Letter 131, Pre-face of the 99' Silmarillion

So Tolkien was evidently influenced by the aforementioned legends.

What say you about this?

:confused: I think it will take a more knowledgable Scholar then me to answer such queries. Walter where are you?

[FoolOfATook]

Turin owes a lot to Kulervo, of the Kalevala. Tolkien once said that the inspiration for the word "Hobbit" might have come from the titular character of Sinclair Lewis' novel Babbitt. The Dwarves names come from the Eddas. Numenor is a reworking of the Atlantis myth, which I believe was first recorded by Plato. Plato also has a bit with rings of invisibility, in Timnaeus. I believe.

Just trying to keep the conversation moving. ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

And it's a good "conversation"! Indeed!

I only wish people who know about all that stuff go on with it!:cool:
We, the others, need education! ;) :p :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
But throwing in more - arbitrary - "bits and pieces", - like I just did - was not what I've had in mind for this thread, even when they are worthy piezes of our big puzzle, actually I was hoping for a somewhat more organized approach, hence I will just lean back and "hearken" some, to what all the "well read and tested Tolkienologists" have to contribute... ;)
Eee! Not fair...to the not too well read and NOT-tested Tolkienologists ! ;)
These would like to read more of what the lorematers would share! ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
It seems we both are waiting with bated breath for these loremasters to show up here... ;)
Yeah...:rolleyes:
But....then..."as always, it is not quite so simple" ;) :D
People must have read all these books... to be able to make the comparisons...

As for the "bells" I just think they're as big as the Tsar Kolokol (the King of Bells) in Kremlin! ;) :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Don't you now quit! :eek:

Why don't you just take it as you - being a Lecturer and ... you know... post whatever comes out from your research work on this most interesting topic!

Ah? :rolleyes:

[Beleg]

The problem for me in Replying is that I seriously don't know a lot about what Walter is mentioning. I did try to read Beauwolf (even before reading Tolkien) but I couldn't understand it so I left it for a better time. Whenever a point comes about which I have sound knowledge, I'd participate in the discussion. Meanwhile please Walter and others who are knowledgeble in Nodric, Germanic, Old English myths and languages, do continue this discussion.

Tolkien once said that the inspiration for the word "Hobbit" might have come from the titular character of Sinclair Lewis' novel Babbitt.

I can remember a Letter of Tolkien which was answered to a question and statement in Observer

[On 16 January 1938, the Observer published a letter, signed 'Habit', asking whether hobbits might have been suggested to Tolkien by Julian Huxley's account of 'the "little furry men" seen in Africa by natives and .... at least one scientist'. The letter-writer also mentioned that a friend had 'said she remembered an old fairy tale called "The Hobbit" in a collection read about 1904', in which the creature of that name 'was definitely frightening'. The writer asked if Tolkien would 'tell us some more about the name and inception of the intriguing hero of his book. .... It would save so many research students so very much trouble in the generations to come. And, by the way, is the hobbit's stealing of the dragon's cup based on the cup-stealing episode in Beowulf? I hope so, since one of the book's charms appears to be its Spenserian harmonising of the brilliant threads of so many branches of epic, mythology, and Victorian fairy literature.' Tolkien's reply, though it was not intended for publication (see the conclusion of no. 26), was printed in the Observer on 20 February 1938.]

Tolkien mentions that he didn't specifically take any reference from Beauwolf in the Hobbit.

He explictly states that his book is not based on anyother book,

My tale is not consciously based on any other book - save one, and that is unpublished: the 'Silmarillion', a history of the Elves, to which frequent allusion is made

Now In this letter I don't quite understand this part,

These dwarves are not quite the dwarfs of better known lore. They have been given Scandinavian names, it is true; but that is an editorial concession. Too many names in the tongues proper to the period might have been alarming.

What does Tolkien mean by "Tongue's Proper"? And what would that be alarming?
And are the names of the Dwarves in Hobbit or LOTR scandenavian?

You mentioned the -Edda, An Ignorant Apprentice asks,
What is Edda?

A general question regarding Scandenavian.

Which languages are generally registered as Scandenavian and how much effect did they have on Old English?
What is the connection between Old English and Celtic languages?

And I guess Tolkien was also influennced by some of the Names he heard or some the things he saw in his childhood.
Here for example is the matter of the name Gamgee.

Yes, Sam Gamgee is in a sense a relation of Dr. Gamgee, in that his name would not have taken that form, if I had not heard of 'Gamgee tissue'; there was I believe a Dr. Gamgee (no doubt of the kin) in Birmingham when I was a child. The name was any way always familiar to me. Gaffer Gamgee arose first: he was a legendary character to my children (based on a real-life gaffer, not of that name).

[FoolOfATook]

Walter- the trouble is that you seem to despise all of us. I'm more than willing to discuss the myths that inspire Tolkien, but I become less inclined to when it's with someone who continually insults me personally (and yes, I do take repeated insults to the testing process personally- you might think them to be a waste of time, or silly, or whatever, and you have a right to think that. Hell, you might be right. But I've spent a whole hell of a lot of time working on them, and I would appreciate it if you didn't feel the need to bash them whenever you see an oppurtuinty). Not everyone in the Guild is as well-read as you are Walter, which is to be expected, considering that most of us are significantly younger than you are and have not yet had a chance to read everything that you have. However, when you refuse to discuss anything unless it's within the erudite boundaries that you lay out, it makes it difficult.

[FoolOfATook]

Beleg, the Eddas refer to two collections of ancient Norse poetry and mythology, the Elder, or Poetic Edda, and the Prose Edda. These collected fragments were one of Tolkien's great loves and inspirations.

[Lhunithiliel]

Gentlemen, let's stick to peaceful and friendly relations!

This is a forum where we have gathered to learn, research and share, and personal attacks can only spoil the creative atmosphere!

The topic is very interesting and I, just as well as other Tolkienologists, find it a useful one.

But let's stick to the subject and not let other matters like testing and ranking system within the Guild interfere.

There is a place for discussing this issue.

[Lantarion]

I'd just like to add that this thread has so far been outstandingly scholarly and incredibly interesting. Had I seen it before I would have noted Kullervo's strong resemblance to Túrin (thank you for that Walter :p); but sadly I have not yet read the Kalevala in full. I am soon going to start it, and although it is several hundred pages long and its language is the most sordid and tongue-twisting form of Finnish you will find, I aim to finish it within two months. After that I can return here with some new 'lore' and therefore some new subjects of discussion.
:)

PS: Another seemingly endless well of links and webs are the languages that Tolkien worked on for most of his life. I know for a fact (and it is obvious in many words) that Finnish was a huge part of the process, especially of Quenya. Some words (like vëne = boat) are either not changed at all or so slightly that it is still obvious that they are of Finnish origin. (if you're wondering, the FInnish word for 'boat' is vene :))

So let's get discussing! I think the key, which sems quite obivous, is not to lecture or to 'teach' but to convey and to discuss the simliarities and affecting factors in and on Tolkien's worlds.

[Ancalagon]

While much of Tolkiens sources and influences are derived from either Icelandic and Norse tradition, much credence also should be given to the Pagan ascestry of early Britain, particularly the Celtic influences which of course find their own origins in Central Europe, mainly Germany.

What is apparent to me is how Tolkien has blended the two early cultural styles into his own Mythology. Both represent pre-Christian European traditions and both are distinctly apparent for their own reasons.

The tales themselves that permeate Tolkiens writings are distinctly Norse in their granduer and style. Epics in themselves they recount fallen heroes, the wrath of the Gods, Dragons and Dwarves and the direct relevance of Elves which are referred to in the Edda. This is what makes Tolkiens writings so vast and powerful in terms of their emotional resonance. The tragic tales that epitomise much of Norse Mythology can be readily seen in Tolkiens own work. Even the Rings of Power; Draupnir, Andvarinaut and Thor's 'Oath Ring' to name but a few are symbols Tolkien found influence from.

Yet, the link to Men for me is more relevant to Celtic tradition. The rituals, burial mounds and standing stones are reminiscent of Old Numenorean ventures into Middle-Earth, the ruins of Ancient Days, the Barrows, long destroyed fortesses. The relams of Arnor and Gondor in their earliest days strike a chord in their similarity.

There is much to be gleaned from the understanding of these traditions in the process of trying to understand Tolkien. I know that Walter feels a strong sense of loyalty to the Masters work, in that before seeking to discuss him with any conviction, one must first try to understand how Tolkien found influence to pen the epic saga and mythology he created. By the same token Walter, one must first learn this for himself/herself the more one delves into the work. The symbolism of ranks and titles is not exclusive to this Guild or forum alone, nor is it intended to be anything other than fun for the members and something for them to strive to reach.

Neither you, nor I or anyone else who frequents these Guilds actually believes themselves to be a true scholar of Tolkien, but all the fun is in trying to get there.

I think we will know we have reached that point when we write a volume of books that Christopher Tolkien feels are worth being included in his own library;)

[Lhunithiliel]

I guess I'd be right to post the following here in this thread.
But if I was wrong in doing so, I ask for apologies.

I amd very much interested in the mythological background of the tale of Numenor and here are a couple of questions that I would be happy to read some opinions on:

1/ The name Avallone - how does it relate to "Avallon" in the tales of King Arthur? Why did Tolkien used the same name?
Is there any place where such information could be read?

2/ The tradition of the Exiled Numenoreans to build the tombs for the dead greater than the houses for the living - can we find a relation in this to the civilizations of the Maia and Incas and the Egyptions?

3/ The part about the "flying ships" of the Exiled Numenoreans - what legends/myths do you think it was based upon?

Again, I am sorry if I have interrupted your discussion.:o

[Beleg]

The part about the "flying ships" of the Exiled Numenoreans - what legends/myths do you think it was based upon?

Perhaps the UFO's? Although I don't think that the concept of UFO's was there during the late 30's and first few years of forties.
Perhaps It is a way Tolkien thought Atlantis civilization to be? Afterall much hubhub has been raised in favor of the point that the lost Island of Atlantis (If there was any) was much more technologically advanced then the other parts of the world in the same era. 2/ The tradition of the Exiled Numenoreans to build the tombs for the dead greater than the houses for the living - can we find a relation in this to the civilizations of the Maia and Incas and the Egyptions?

This notion comes basically from the wish of becoming immortal, which has been present in almost every civilization to some extent.
I personally think that the Mummification and building of Pyramids has more to do with preserving the ancestoral cultural, tradition and heritage rather then the wish of becoming immortal...as was the case with Numenoreans...

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
I personally think that the Mummification and building of Pyramids has more to do with preserving the ancestoral cultural, tradition and heritage rather then the wish of becoming immortal
Well, in a sense they mummified the dead (actually only royalty) with their personal possessions and things to ready them for the afterlife, which in a sense means "immortality" because their soul continues its life.
And I don't think Númenóreans believed in afterlife, but I'm not sure.

About the flying ships, I think I read somewhere that the Tolkien had the 'leftover' Númenóreans build flying craft after the end of their sojourn on the Land of Gift.. Ah it was on a thread posted by Idril: <The Lost Road> says that exiled
Numenoreans after the Downfall, trying in vain to fly the Straight Road to
Valinor, made aircraft (1987, p. 17).
Here's th (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11670)e link. It's an increidbly interesting read. :)

[FoolOfATook]

In one of his letters, Tolkien links the Numenorians in Gondor to the Egyptians, even saying that their crown was based on that of the Egyptians... unfortunately, I'm away from my books, and can't bring up the exact quote...

Edit: Here's the quote I was refering to:
The Numenorians of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians'- the love of, and power to construct, the giant and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in 'theology': in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan - but this would take long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no overt 'religion', or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples in The Lord of the Rings.) I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight but back at an angle. The N. Kingdom had only a diadem (III 323). Cf. the difference between the N. and S. kingdoms of Egypt.

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you Master Took for the interesting quote!
Ah! Those letters! So much information lying there one can dig out from...:rolleyes:

I remeber reading somewhere (...or was it in one of those brilliant BBC-documentaries...:rolleyes: ) that the pyramids the Egyptions built in such a way that the main chamber of the dead pharaon and especially his sarcophagus was positioned in a very particular place - a perfect straight line (imaginably) could be drawn connecting the sarcophagus and the center of the Orion-constellation where the Egyptions believed their Ra lived.

The "Straight road" ????

What about the name "Avallone" ?

[Lantarion]

Perhaps one of Tolkien's Letters tell us whether that was purposeful.
But there really is almost no simliarities betwen Avallónë and Avalon.
First of all, Avalon is a (mythical) island where Arthur supposedly spent his last years, whereas Avallónë is a city, or a port, which kept contact with the Númenóreans of Andúnië.
Anyway, it might have been an accident! Avallónë means "near Valinor".. I wonder what 'Avalon' meant. Is it Middle English or something?

[Melian]

I don't mean to be pushy, but recently I've posted a lecture here( The Hall Of Lectures, the last few posts). Its topic was; "Finding Parallelism Between Ancient Mythology and Tolkien".

I thought someone of you historians and scholars might be interested, because all I could say-I;ve said it already there. There is a comparison between Tolkien and Egyptian, Greeko-Roman, Mesopotamian,Scandinavian and Celtic mythology. It was a tough job, it's really hard to read it but I'd put much effort in it so please come over.:) And if by any bizarre twist of fate you like it, you can also partcipate in the discussions at the Hall of Serminars.

[Lhunithiliel]

An excellent brain-storming topic for loremasters!