Time of LotR

[Walter]

There's this curious statement of T in letter #211
I could have fitted things in with greater versimilitude, if the story had not become too far developed, before the question ever occurred to me. I doubt if there would have been much gain; and I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap in time*) between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'.

I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary ''time'', but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for ''place''. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not lovable with the love of blood-kin. ''Middle-earth'' is (by the way & if such a note is necessary) not my own invention. It is a modernization or alteration (N[ew] E[nglish] D[ictionary] 'a perversion') of an old word for the inhabited world of Men, the ''oikoumenē'': middle because thought of vaguely as set amidst the encircling Seas and (in the northern-imagination) between ice of the North and the fire of the South. O.English ''middan-geard'', mediæval E. ''midden-erd'', ''middle-erd''. Many reviewers seem to assume that Middle-earth is another planet!

*) I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as SeA and ThA. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.


The footnote of the last quoted letter gives some information about Tolkien's idea of the age the LotR is taking place. But this statement is - seen on a historical plane - rather curious, because it would place the events of the LotR in the Stone Age (or Neolithic Period) of Europe, which is - in my opinion - a clear contradiction to the culture and civilization Tolkien presents us with.

Any ideas?

[Lhunithiliel]

Allow please an apprentice to drop a modest thought or two ;)

First, I find it rather peculiar that T. states that he "kept hisfeet on hisown mother-earth for ''place''and yet, the events described in his writings seem to be out of the time of existing of this mother-earth.
So, it just might result that the Middle-earth sagas are a travel into a non-existing time on an existing place...:rolleyes:

Now, this subject however, reminds me of sth. I might be wrong of course, but in a modest research I did some time ago, concerning the ages, I noticed that each age in fact ends with an apocaliptic war. So, if we are at the end of the Fifth, Sixth...or whatever age... what are we to expect if the "model" cntinues to be implemented by the natural historical development of the civilization?

Or...in other words... should we seek for a parallel between our real world and that called Middle-earth?:rolleyes:

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Allow please an apprentice to drop a modest thought or two ;)Deeper thoughts are always welcome, no matter whether they come from an apprentice or a loremaster ;)

First, I find it rather peculiar that T. states that he "kept hisfeet on hisown mother-earth for ''place''and yet, the events described in his writings seem to be out of the time of existing of this mother-earth.
So, it just might result that the Middle-earth sagas are a travel into a non-existing time on an existing place...:rolleyes: Well, that's about what he - almost apologetically - says in the second paragraph of the quote

Now, this subject however, reminds me of sth. I might be wrong of course, but in a modest research I did some time ago, concerning the ages, I noticed that each age in fact ends with an apocaliptic war. So, if we are at the end of the Fifth, Sixth...or whatever age... what are we to expect if the "model" cntinues to be implemented by the natural historical development of the civilization?Ask Nostradamus ;)

But almost all tales with an apocalyptic ending, also tell of a new beginning, afterwards (Bible, Ragnarök, Tolkien, etc.)

Or...in other words... should we seek for a parallel between our real world and that called Middle-earth?:rolleyes: That very much depends on whether we tend to see it as pure "fiction & fantasy" or whether we see them as "mythical tales" (which always contain a little bit of some historical truth)...

[Beleg]

Now, this subject however, reminds me of sth. I might be wrong of course, but in a modest research I did some time ago, concerning the ages, I noticed that each age in fact ends with an apocaliptic war. So, if we are at the end of the Fifth, Sixth...or whatever age... what are we to expect if the "model" cntinues to be implemented by the natural historical development of the civilization?

I guess The Lost Road, in the end was meant to turn out as a parallel between Our age and the Ages before.

The footnote of the last quoted letter gives some information about Tolkien's idea of the age the LotR is taking place. But this statement is - seen on a historical plane - rather curious, because it would place the events of the LotR in the Stone Age (or Neolithic Period) of Europe, which is - in my opinion - a clear contradiction to the culture and civilization Tolkien presents us with.

I agree with you....

Or...in other words... should we seek for a parallel between our real world and that called Middle-earth?

In some ways, perhaps culture and language wise yes, but Geograpically and Historically No. Ragnarök,

A question by an ignorant, What is Ragnarok?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
Deeper thoughts are always welcome, no matter whether they come from an apprentice or a loremaster ;)
Kind!!!! :)

That very much depends on whether we tend to see it as pure "fiction & fantasy" or whether we see them as "mythical tales" (which always contain a little bit of some historical truth)...
IMHO, every fiction, myht and even the wildest fantasy come out from reality. Isn't it so?!....Oh! How very philosophical! :p:D

because it would place the events of the LotR in the Stone Age (or Neolithic Period) of Europe, which is - in my opinion - a clear contradiction to the culture and civilization Tolkien presents us with.
But, purely amateurish ;) , quite some facts have come provided recently to point out that the Stone Age of human real history was preceded by other ages, long before the "cave men" - ages when it is boldly supposed that there were highly developed civilizations, which had vanished and are completely unknown for thier origin.
Who could ever tell?! Do we have to wholeheartedly believe Darwin? ;) :D

Ask Nostradamus
Arrange me an appointment with him, please! :p I'd LOVE to talk to him!

[Beleg]

But, purely amateurish , quite some facts have come provided recently to point out that the Stone Age of human real history was preceded by other ages, long before the "cave men"

And the front runers for that concept are the Supposed Atlantis, The Tibetain (Chinese) Legends, The Pyramid's Myths...

[Walter]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
A question by an ignorant, What is Ragnarok? [/B] "The Doom of the Gods", the Aesir, in the Norse myths...

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
But, purely amateurish ;) , quite some facts have come provided recently to point out that the Stone Age of human real history was preceded by other ages, long before the "cave men" - ages when it is boldly supposed that there were highly developed civilizations, which had vanished and are completely unknown for thier origin.
Who could ever tell?! Do we have to wholeheartedly believe Darwin? ;) :DAre you sure, we can't come up with a better "hypothesis"? ;)


Arrange me an appointment with him, please! :p I'd LOVE to talk to him! As soon as he contacts me I will, but until then you could read some of his prophecies... :p

[Eriol]

I know the Atlantis reference is a joke, but I think it is quite in line with what Tolkien had in mind. There is (or at least was, in the 1950's) room for speculation about pre-history. Tolkien was not very friendly with evolution, as many of his contemporaries, what with the Piltdown fiasco still smouldering. (Piltdown man, a fossil find from England, was found to be a hoax in the 1950's, if I'm not mistaken--perhaps in the later 40's).

Taking the Atlantis myth as a guideline, it is supposed to be about 10000 years old according to Plato. Not too far from Tolkien's ideas.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Eriol
I know the Atlantis reference is a joke, but I think it is quite in line with what Tolkien had in mind. There is (or at least was, in the 1950's) room for speculation about pre-history. Tolkien was not very friendly with evolution, as many of his contemporaries, what with the Piltdown fiasco still smouldering. (Piltdown man, a fossil find from England, was found to be a hoax in the 1950's, if I'm not mistaken--perhaps in the later 40's).

Taking the Atlantis myth as a guideline, it is supposed to be about 10000 years old according to Plato. Not too far from Tolkien's ideas. Adding 3000 years (ThirdAge) to T's 6000 (Fall of Barad-Dûr) would - roughly - get us there, give or take... ;)

But I don't think we have to be so speculative, concerning Tolkien's mythology, he has provided us with enough details and facts to "assemble his big puzzle" in a way where it is in - some - accordance with the other European myths, I think...