Where did Hobbits come from?

[baraka]

Pardon my ignorance, but where do hobbits come from?

[ReadWryt]

Well see, a Daddy Hobbit and a Mommy Hobbit decide that they REALLY like each other....

[Merry]

No no no, there is a stork that flys from the north and delivers little babies to different people. The hobbits were made up of spare parts that were stunted in growth but the Valar didn't want to throw them away!

Tee hee....

RW, you are FAR too funny!!! :D :D :D :D :D

[Elanor2]

That's something we all want to know!!!

[Beorn]

Hobbits were slightly related to men. They originated in "the upper vales of the Anduin." I believe the first records of them was circa TA1100.

[Jago]

I always thought Hobbits came from the West of Middle-earth with Man.:confused:

[Greymantle]

Well, the upper vales of Anduin are the west of Middle-earth, if we're talking Third Age. Correct me if I'm missing something!
Oh, and welcome to the Forum! :)

[Chymaera]

Hobbits are the babies of the Eru family. You see after Aule had created the dwarves, Yavanna wanted her Ents. Everybody put in there two-cents, most noteable was Vana's request for guardians of the lesser plants and flowers, these guardians were the Hobbit's. Of course Vana being the lowest on the Valar pecking order her requst wasn't filled until well into the third age.


warning these are just the mussing of a partially frozen mind :D

[Mad Adski]

And here was me thinking they were a sub-species of men!

[TGC]

um, dont they come from hobiton?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Welcome Jago and who really no's were they come from they probably don't.

[ssgrif]

You're all wrong, Hobbits come from eggs, which have a gestation period of about 3.5 years...

I have a letter from Tolkien himself claiming this to be true so I have.

[Mlangley]

they came from the imagination of a big great man who wrote the most amazing story ever JRR Tolking ( Ok who is going to pay me for this promotional lol:p )

[baragund]

As I understand it, Hobbits are neither Quendi or Atani. The dwarves were created by Aule when he got impatient over the coming of the children of Iluvatar. According to the Tale of Years, Hobbits first appear in the vales of Anduin around 1000 TA. My question is when, where and how were Hobbits created?

[Eriol]

In the "Concerning Hobbits" chapter of LotR it is said that they were closely related to Men. I think of them as a subspecies of Men. Of course their origin is much earlier than 1000 TA, this is just their first recorded appearance. I think that 'uncivilized' hobbits could be quite difficult to spot.

[Ithrynluin]

You may find the following thread of some interest: Did Hobbits have a mission? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7510). :)

[baragund]

That was an excellent thread, Ithrynluin, but it confirms my suspicion that there is not much in JRRT's writings about the true origins of Hobbits. From what I read in that thread, I think Walter hit closest to the mark by describing the disconnect between JRRT's mythology and The Hobbit, which was written as a children's story.

From a purely logistic point of view, this make sense to me but it sure would be more fulfilling if there was, somewhere, in the writings an account of where hobbits came from.

[YayGollum]

Here's what I said for a while ---> elves became orcses, goblins are smaller orcses, hobgoblins are smaller goblins, and hobbitses are messed up hobgoblins that became good. People don't seem to like that idea, but I love that it explains why Gollum called the hobbitses nasssty.

Here's my new and more educated opinion ---> The Hobbit says that there were Beornings of all sizes, right? The Beornings and Gollum's type of hobbit both lived in the Vale of Anduin, right? There ya go. They're just a race of the smallest type of Beorning, but they forgot how to do turn into bears. Their feet stayed crazy looking, though. Also, the One Ring mutated Gollum. The One Ring works with the abilities people already have, right? So it just worked with the old abilities hobbitses used to have as Beornings and let him shift shape a little to fit his new surroundings. Doesn't that make all kinds of sense?

[Ithrynluin]

That's an excellent theory you conjured up there Yay! I wish you would write more details about, I'd sure like to read more! ;)

It nicely proves what J.R.R.T said in the prologue, that 'Hobbits are relatives of ours.'

[FrankSinatra]

Very 'Darwin' Yay.

Kind of 'Evolution' if you like then.

[Melko Belcha]

I have always thought that they awoke at the same time as Man, but in a different location. It's just my theory, no proof on it, there is not even any info in Letters.

[YayGollum]

Well, what other details would you like? I thought I explained it pretty well. oh well. Yay for people liking my new theory! Maybe I'm just getting too dangerously close to making sense nowadays. oh well. Let me see here. Sure, I guess it could be a Darwin theory type thing, crazy FrankSinatra person. Why not? This didn't take as long, though. Anyways, sure, that idea of this Melko Belcha person's makes just as much sense as mine.

[Inderjit S]

YayGollum-The Beornings/Woodmen were descendants of the Marachian tribes who didn't pass into Eriador/Beleriand. They had been in Beleriand since the time of the WoTJ. Tolkien also, I believe says that only Beorn himself could turn into a bear, and that was due to a magic of sorts, but the Beornings/woodmen couldn't. The Hobbits of the Anduin, meanwhile, the Stoors, migrated into Rhovanion along with all other Hobbits sometime in the Early T.A and they entered Angle and Dunland in T.A and some of the Stoors of Angle migrate back to the Anduin in T.A, probably because of Argeleb's defeat by Rhuduar and the fact it may have been getting to dangerous for their liking.

On Hobbit origins we just DONT KNOW anything.

[baragund]

On Hobbit origins we just DONT KNOW anything.

Inderjit, you are confirming my suspicions that JRRT never really addressed Hobbit origins. I was hoping one of our resident HOME Series experts could reference something. Otherwise, we have no choice but to resort to conjecture

It is interesting to me that JRRT would leave this rather LARGE hole in his mythology. He was so meticulous with other much smaller details, it is odd that he would blow off a major item like this. As for Walter's idea that he made up Hobbits to fit his children's story, don't forget he did have around 35 years from the publication of the Hobbit until his death to figure out where Hobbits came from.

If all we have is conjecture, I like Yay's notion that Hobbits are Atani, and most closely related to the people of Beorn.

[Beleg]

Alas, we can only offer theories. I have checked most HOME volumes, and it seems to me that Tolkien purposefully kept the topic vague.
We can only form Suggestions, but if we want to hear theories, then there was a very good essay written by Michel Martienez on Suite101.com about the Origin of Hobbits.
Very Interesting articals, but you say no solid facts, just opinions or deductions. As for Walter's idea that he made up Hobbits to fit his children's story, don't forget he did have around 35 years from the publication of the Hobbit until his death to figure out where Hobbits came from.

As Inderjit said this doesn't necessary show why didn't he tell us about their origin. Tolkien dicusses the Hobbits in UT and Of Dwarves And Men, HOME12 with regard to Druedain. And there he has specifically told us that Hobbit's were not Druedain, (although both may seem close in structure and some habbits).
This to me shows that Tolkien purposely wanted to keep us guessing on this topic. If we take a quick screen through all the races of men and Hobbits, we'll find that in Structure Druedain are the closest to Hobbits and they would be the obvious choice if we want to link Hobbit's to any Known clan of men, But It seems that Tolkien indeed thought about this Question and Negated the Obvious, not giving us any other hints though...which only means that either he was not sure or wanted to keep us guessing.

The Drûgs or Púkel-men are not however to be confused with or thought of as a mere variant on the hobbit theme

[Inderjit S]

which only means that either he was not sure or wanted to keep us guessing

I think the lack of information on Hobbit's origins was because Tolkien intentionally wanted to keep it as a enigma, like say what Tom Bombadil was.

[Melko Belcha]

There is nothing in the HoME series, and this is all there is said in The Letters of JRR Tolkien

Letter #131
(Hobbits) Their origin is unknown (even to themselves) for they escaped the notice of the great, or the civilised peoples with records, and kept none themselves, save vague oral traditions, until they had migrated from the borders of Mirkwood, fleeing the Shadow, and wandered westward, coming into contact with the last remnants of the Kingdom of Arnor. (Footnote) The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants, and animals), and adnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth. They are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man - though not with either the smalleness or the savageness of Swift, and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men 'at a pinch'.

[Inderjit S]

If all we have is conjecture, I like Yay's notion that Hobbits are Atani, and most closely related to the people of Beorn.

A few corrections here baragund:

1.The Beornings were not Atani. The 'Atani' the (Second People was I think the Quenya name for them) was a phrase used for the 'Three Houses' Beor, Hador and Haleth., though in it's context it meant all men. The Beornings ancestors, though related to the Hadorians never crossed into Beleriand.

2. The Hobbits were 'Hobbits' before they came into contact with Beornings. That is if they ever did. They did have some relations with the 'Northmen' who later became the Rohhirm. I think they may have been living too far south to have a contact with the Beornings anyway, prior to their first migration. Also wouldny' Beorn at least have a inkling as to who Bilbo was or what Hobbits are if they had some contact?

[YayGollum]

WoTJ? Anyways, where does it say that only Beorn could turn into a bear? I assumed that they could all do that because of that crazy little meeting where the evil torturer Gandalf ran into all of those different sized bear trackses. oh well. I'll just go with ---> If Beorn had the potential to shapeshift, so did the other Beornings.

Anyways, if I knew more about those Marachian types you're talking about, I might be able to defend my crazy idea better. oh well.

About Beorn knowing about the nasssty hobbitses, it is possible *gasp!* for him to have not been paying much attention to history. Like you said, he lived more to the north. Or do the books say for definite surely that the Beornings only lived in that area and never went anywhere near the Stoor type area?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
YayGollum-The Beornings/Woodmen were descendants of the Marachian tribes who didn't pass into Eriador/Beleriand. They had been in Beleriand since the time of the WoTJ. Tolkien also, I believe says that only Beorn himself could turn into a bear, and that was due to a magic of sorts, but the Beornings/woodmen couldn't. The Hobbits of the Anduin, meanwhile, the Stoors, migrated into Rhovanion along with all other Hobbits sometime in the Early T.A and they entered Angle and Dunland in T.A and some of the Stoors of Angle migrate back to the Anduin in T.A, probably because of Argeleb's defeat by Rhuduar and the fact it may have been getting to dangerous for their liking.


I fail to see how any of this disproves Yay's theory.

Who knows where the Hobbits who 'migrated into Rhovanion' came from in the first place. Couldn't they have been part of the Beornings and simply developed different interests and moved away to live separately?

To the best of my knowledge, Yay's theory holds water firmly. ;)

WoTJ

War of the Jewels

[Maerbenn]

I couldn't resist posting a few hints on the subject a mysterious on-line friend gave me (who claimed to have figured out from where Hobbits came originally):


sand dunes
Bilbo's mysterious ramblings in The Hobbit
Oliphaunts
Púkel-men


There is a bit more, but now perhaps you smart guys can figure out the rest, and even provide evidence for it, if the whole thing doesn't prove to be just BS. :)

[Inderjit S]

Who knows where the Hobbits who 'migrated into Rhovanion' came from in the first place. Couldn't they have been part of the Beornings and simply developed different interests and moved away to live separately

Firstly, Hobbit origins, as a WHOLE group, there divergence hadn't occurred until they went to Eriador, lie back in the 'Elder days' signifying the F.A or beyond. (Considering Tolkiens latter legendarium)

From the South......

ALL the Hobbits migrated from the South of Greenwood, under probably through the Brown Lands.

The Hobbits migrated into 'Western Lands' sometime in the T.A, early T.A age that. They 'first appeared' in the Vales of Anduin, just above Lothlorien, and they migrated upwards through Rhovanion. They migrated as a WHOLE not in several groups, and Tolkien never recalls them being joined by a 'group of little Beornings' as you call them.

The increase of men was not the normal increase of those wit whom they had lived in friendship....and even in places occupying the forest and coming through it into the Anduin valley of Dwarves and men; HoME 12

An doesn't this phrase show you the Stoors were of a HOBBIT breed?

[Ithrynluin]

Sorry, still don't see anything that would be sufficient evidence to disprove YayGollum's theory.

1. At the beginning of the Third Age, there was a group of Beornings. Even within this group not all people were of same stature and interest.

2. A certain group of these (presumably smaller ;)) people decides to break off in pursuit of new aims and interests.

3. These become the Hobbits later...and divide into three groups.

[Inderjit S]

I see that we will never agree on this issue.....Lets end it now. :)

[Maerbenn]

Perhaps my post wasn’t taken seriously. Here’s a hint from The Lord of the Rings; ‘The Road to Isengard’: ‘My people came out of the North long ago,’ said Théoden. ‘But I will not deceive you: we know no tales about hobbits. All that is said among us is that far away, over many hills and rivers, live the halfling folk that dwell in holes in sand-dunes. But there are no legends of their deeds. for it is said that they do little, and avoid the sight of men, being able to vanish in a twinkling: and they can change their voices to resemble the piping of birds. But it seems that more could be said.’
‘It could indeed, lord,’ said Merry.

[Beleg]

To the best of the Knowledge, Sand Dunes would surely only be found in Harad or in the Southern Area's? Or on the coasts, do you mean to say they came from the inland sea of Helcar, or what remained thereof.

[Inderjit S]

Maybe the sand-dune is a reference to this passage from the Hobbit:

If I had to walk from here and fight the wild Were-Worms in the Last Desert

[Holly]

lets see I don't know do you?:confused: