Orcs

[Peter of the Trees]

Didn't it mention somewhere in the Silmarrillion something about ' Orcs being hewn from the Ground ' ?

[Telchar]

I'm not sure what you mean.. If you are talking about the origin of Orcs I think it's said, in the Silmarillion, that the Orcs are made in mockery of the Elves.. But Tolkien later changes his opinion on this..

[Gloer]

And what is his changed opinion?

Since Silmarillion was posthumously published I take that he did not change his opinion. Maybe he did have other thoughts earlier, but in the final version Orc's were the mockery of elves.

[Cian]

JRRT was re-thinking his ideas about the origin of the orcs (seen in the 'orc-essays' published in Morgoths Ring). Chris Tolkien comments on what appeared to be his father's 'final' ('datewise' anyway) written view: that orcs were bred from Men rather ~ without going into details here, CT also noted however that this conclusion itself was put a bit in doubt.

In any case, Christopher Tolkien could not easily incorporate these strands of "re-thinking" into the published Silmarillion. One note from Tolkien shows (at least) his revisional mindset ~ against an "origin" of orcs on the typescript to the Annals of Aman JRRT noted: "Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish"

[Galan`Black]

I thought the Elves were transformed into Orcs by the Dark Lord Morgoth. Aleast that is what I think I've heard. Not sure. I think I'm confusing myself.

[pippin le qer]

about Tolkien changing his mind about the origin of orcs? maybe my post in the Silmarilllion forum ( orcs before Tolkien) can shed some light on the topic.
It was after reading a glossary to Beowulf that the scene in the movie where Saruman watches his Urak Hai be spawned, made a whole new sense.
somehow Tolkien must have toyed with the idea that necromancy was involved, he knew that "Orc" ment "walking dead"in old-English. It may be speculative, but I shouldn't wonder that sometime a note turnes up where Morgoth is using elvin corpses for his orcs

[daisy]

Does this mean that in the film, when Saruman is talking to, I guess Lurtz, and he rambles on about orcs being made from elves that were tortured and mutilated, that this is a Peter Jackson creation?

[pippin le qer]

no, that's what you can find in the books, but according to Chris Tolkien the old genius kept changing his mind about the origin of orcs, so necromancy must have crossed his mind as did the origin of SVART-ALVAR in Norse mythology who crawled as maggots from the rotting meat of Ymir.
Orcs from pods is Jacksons idea, whom I credit as doing homework on "Orcology" and not using some Hollywood like trick.
The more I think about it the more I like these pods, althrough while watching the movie I couldn't make heads or tails from it.:cool:

[ReadWryt]

Actually, Tolkien states that "Orc" meant "Demon" in old english.

If Orcs emerging from Pods is what Tolkien meant when he stated that the Orcs "bred in the manner of the Children of Illuvatar", and the Orcs were actually created from Men and not Elves, then I suppose that all the Humans in Middle-earth spring forth from some sort of pods as well then. I allways thought that, Middle-earth being a Pre-Historic Mythological Europe, Men would breed like Men do now, but I guess I was wrong...

[Greenwood]

If Orcs emerging from Pods is what Tolkien meant when he stated that the Orcs "bred in the manner of the Children of Illuvatar", and the Orcs were actually created from Men and not Elves, then I suppose that all the Humans in Middle-earth spring forth from some sort of pods as well then. I allways thought that, Middle-earth being a Pre-Historic Mythological Europe, Men would breed like Men do now, but I guess I was wrong...

But those were not orcs coming from whatever that stuff was. They were Uruk-hai, Saruman's own invention. The book is not at all specific as to how Saruman created his Uruk-hai. It just suggests that they are a blending of orcs and men. It does not say how this blending was accomplished. Yes, I would also assume that men bred in Middle Earth as they do now. The issue, however, is not germane to the point under discussion.

I thought comments about the movie were supposed to be on the movie forum, but I guess I was wrong .....

[Tar-Steve]

Would you two please confine it in the movie forum?

[ReadWryt]

Greenwood,

I was merely responding to a previous post. *Shrug* If I go into the Movie Forum and find anything about the books I'll be sure to delete it just for you...

[Greenwood]

I was merely responding to a previous post.

At the end of my post I merely tried to point out that a moderator was dragging comments about the movie into a book discussion. I was under the impression this was frowned upon, but I guess I was wrong ....

Tar-Steve

I suggest you take a look at your signature before throwing stones. :)

[Tar-Steve]

Misdirection Greenwood? Shame on you! :D

(I forgot about my sig. I'll have to get around to updating it. That's a very old issue, tisn't it?)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Grond on another thread
I just posted this over on the movie thread and thought it might have pertinence here. Forgive me, but I didn't want to type the whole thing over again, so it is copied, verbatim.

The following summary of dialogue should clear up much concerning the Orc question. First off, this (according to Christopher Tolkien) is his best guess as to his father's final words on the origins of the orcs. From Morgoth's Ring, Chapter Myth's Transformed,

"...They bred and mutiplied rapidly whenever left undisturbed. So far as can be gleaned from the legends that have come down to us from our earliest days, it would seem that the Quendi had never yet encountered any Orcs of this kind before the coming of Orome to Cuivienen. "

and

"...the theory (that orcs originate from Man) remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own...he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets...They hated one another and often fought...they had languages of their own, and spoke among themselves in various tongues...They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain."

and

"...was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master whe he returned."

This is much debate and contradiction by the author with himself in this ten page summation by Christopher. But they are all based on passages written by JRRT's own hand. It appears that his final word was that Orcs reproduced like man and were of man stock.Here are the author's last thoughts according to his son Christopher. ***whew, it's hard to cut and paste***

[Gloer]

This is my hypothesis for an explanation how Orcs appeared before the men. It is from the other forum too:
----
Men woke up with the FIRST SUN RISE
There are Orcs fighting against Faenor and Elwe Singollo before this and Fingolfins arrival with the rest of the Noldo led by Fingolfin. And that group arrived with the first sun rise.

My hypothesis:

The Valar are very careful not to tear the world upside down before the Eldar woke because they did not know where they were hidden and supposed to wake. So they only took Melkor captive when the elves were born and located. This leaves us the idea that Elves and men do not just pop up from nowhere. They are actually hidden long before waking up.

So my explanation of Orcs being twisted men and not elves as elves themselves thought is the following.

Manwe and all valar had visions of the song at times - they remembered the future. So the elves were born and Melkor finds them first. He tries to bend them to his will, but they only break and die. My theory is that Melkor remembered that there will be yet another theme after the first theme that must have ment the elves! So he started searching and finally Melkor found out where some of the men were hidden well before their time had come.

He woke them up and twisted them to Orcs. But the eldar nor the valar couldn't think of this since the men had not been born yet. So they thought that Orcs where elven origin and maybe Melkor also spread this lie to make him seem more powerful.

[EverEve]

i cant answer ur question cuz i ahvent read the simarillion yet..... just thought i would share

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Gloer
This is my hypothesis for an explanation how Orcs appeared before the men. It is from the other forum too:
----
Men woke up with the FIRST SUN RISE
There are Orcs fighting against Faenor and Elwe Singollo before this and Fingolfins arrival with the rest of the Noldo led by Fingolfin. And that group arrived with the first sun rise.

Men awakening with the first sunrise, and that occuring only after the return of the Noldor into Beleriand can be attributed to Mannish mythology. The Sun (and Moon) must have been around for a long time, before even the Elves awoke.