Debate Tournament - Round 1: OiE vs. Elves/Dwarves

[Aulë]

Greetings, debators of Ost-in-Edhil and Guild of Elves/Dwarves. I shall be hosting this Round 1 debate between yourselves.
This debate shall run for one week from the opening post.
Ost-in-Edhil shall choose their stance, since they are the 'home' Guild.

Could both teams please put forward their teams of 4 debators before I commence, and post the topic issued by Maedhros (Preferabaly in the next 24 hours).

[Turgon]

The Ost-in-Edhil team is as follows:

Ancalagon,
Arvedui,
Chymaera,
and Gothmog.

Good luck to all involved!

[Aulë]

The Guild of Elves/Dwarves team is:

-The_Swordmaster
-Bethelarien
-Glorfindel1187
-Ledreanne313



The topic is:

Failure of love or the Curse of Morgoth?
From the Published Silmarillion: Of Túrin Turambar
At first his own people did not know Gwindor, who went out young and strong, and returned now seeming as one of the aged among mortal Men, because of his torments and his labours; but Finduilas daughter of Orodreth the King knew him and welcomed him, for she had loved him before the Nirnaeth, and so greatly did Gwindor love her beauty that he named her Faelivrin, which is the gleam of the sun on the pools of Ivrin.
Yet the love was turned to Túrin.
Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin
Is this a failure of love between Finduilas and Gwindor or was it the curse of Morgoth at work?

[Ancalagon]

Thank-you Aulë for arranging this debate and thanks also to the Guild of Elves and Dwarves for joining us in the hallowed halls of The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil.

With reference to the question that has been set us;
we here in Ost-in-Edhil will take the side that Finduilas' love was swayed not by any curse of Morgoth, but simply that her heart desired another whom she could not have. It may be that a curse was upon her, but not at the hands of Melkor/Morgoth, for any man or woman who has ever loved will know that love chooses wither it will, against our better judgement and often it stretches out for those well beyond our reach.

The simple truth is this, that Finduilas grew to love Túrin, while her love for Gwindor became more platonic in nature. In truth Finduilas was torn in mind. For she honoured Gwindor and pitied him, and wished not to add one tear to his suffering; but against her will her love for Túrin grew day by day, and she thought of Beren and Lúthien. Unfinished Tales Morgoth plays no part in defining whom she should or should not love, for these choices are made by the heart over which Morgoth holds no reign and nor in truth does she. Do not forget, Morgoths curse upon Húrin and Morwen was specific to them and their kin; Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow; The Silmarillion Finduilas is daughter of Orodreth, of the House of Finarfin, which of course bears no relation to Húrin and Morwen or their offspring. In truth, if anything Finduilas would be entangled in the Curse of the Noldor, put upon them all by Mandos...'The Dispossessed shall they be for ever!'

Yet what of Finduilas, a romantic in heart was she ever wondering if her fate was bound like that of Lúthien. For her love for Túrin did grow over time, against her will and better judgement, but then again, who can fathom love when it takes us and leads us? Who can blame her if she fell for Túrin, I doubt she was the only one in Nargothrond. He was young, strong and beautiful and any Elven princess may be forgiven for faltering in the presence of one so mighty as he! In the time that followed Túrin grew high in favour with Orodreth, and well-nigh all hearts were turned to him in Nargothrond. For he was young, and only now reached his full manhood; and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal Men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were that of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken for one from the great houses of the Noldor; therefore many called him Adanedhel, the Elf-Man.The Silmarillion
Did not Lúthien love Beren in such similar fashion, or could that be Morgoths fault also!?
And what of poor Gwindor, broken after Angband and lesser in stature and might than Túrin. She pitied him, sorrowed for him and loved him, thought not as he loved her. For pity is not a trait of true love nor can it suffice in true loves stead. Let me repeat this quote once again;
In truth Finduilas was torn in mind. For she honoured Gwindor and pitied him, and wished not to add one tear to his suffering; but against her will her love for Túrin grew day by day, and she thought of Beren and Lúthien. But Túrin was not like Beren! He did not scorn her, and was glad in her company; yet she knew that he had no love of the kind she wished. His mind and heart were elsewhere, by rivers in springs long past.Unfinished Tales Sadly, love is an unpredicable emotion over which we have no control. It is not bound by sensiblity or reason, not measured or managed, not tempered or tamed but it simply 'is.' She loved Túrin as Gwindor loved her, niether had love in return.

[Gothmog]

I have been looking through the books and find that I can add little to Anc's post. However, it must be said once more that it could only be due to the Failing of the love of Finduilas for Gwindor and a growth of love for Turin in spite of any curse not because of it. For Melkor to be responsible for this he would not only need to have power over the emotions of Elves and Men but also to be able to comprehend this emotion. As the following quote shows he could not comprehend it because he did not have such himself.Then Manwë granted him pardon; but the Valar would not yet suffer him to depart beyond their sight and vigilance, and he was constrained to dwell within the gates of Valmar. But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it; and therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever. The Silmarillion: Chapter 6: Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor

As for having the power over the emotions this was beyond any of the Valar else there would have been far less trouble in getting the Elves to move to the West in the first place. The only emotions that Melkor could understand were Lust and Fear, both of which he knew full well in himself.

[Bethelarien]

I would like to thank the OiE for participating in this with us, and I apologize for the lack of participation on our part. Being my first debate, it took me longer than I expected to put together my response.

The position of the Guild of Elves/Guild of Dwarves Debate Team is that Finduilas' tragic love of Túrin was part of the curse of the House of Húrin.

Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow. The Silmarillion: Of Túrin Turambar

Upon learning of Finduilas' death,
Túrin bade them lead him thither, and there he fell down into a darkness of grief that was near death.The Sil.
Morgoth's curse upon the House of Húrin was to ring sorrow upon them. In this, part of the curse was accomplished.

Gwindor spoke with Finduilas, saying:
A doom indeed lies on him [Túrin], as seeing eyes may well read in him, but a dark doom. Enter not into it! And if you will, your love shall betray you to bitterness and death…Doubt not the power of Morgoth Bauglir! The Sil.

Gwindor knew of the curse on Túrin, and warned Finduilas that the doom would also fall on her. Therefore, she knew Túrin's doom, and was indeed betrayed to bitterness and death, by the power of the curse on Túrin, even as Gwindor had said.

The words of Morgoth to Húrin:
But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they do, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death.The Unfinished Tales: Narn i Hîn Húrin

Therefore, the turning of Finduilas' love from Gwindor to Túrin is but part of the fulfillment of the curse of Morgoth. Because of her love for him, great sorrow was brought upon both Finduilas and Túrin, and he suffered much at her death. This is part of the curse. Also, as Morgoth declared, "whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel." This was indeed the case. Because of Túrin's counsel not to throw down the bridge of Nargothrond, Finduilas was taken, which led to her eventual death. Thus another aspect of the curse of the House of Húrin was fulfilled.

[Gothmog]

Bethelarien, I am glad indeed that you have been able to post your teams position on this matter.

It is true as you say that Morgoth's curse was to bring sorrow to the house of Húrin. It was laid on Húrin, Morwen and their off-spring. However, you have turned around the cause and effect. Finduilas was not of the house of Húrin, she was an Elf of Nargothrond. The curse of Morgoth could not have any effect upon her until she fell in love with Túrin.

The words of Gwindor that you quote show clearly that he understood this.
A doom indeed lies on him [Túrin], as seeing eyes may well read in him, but a dark doom. Enter not into it! And if you will, your love shall betray you to bitterness and death Doubt not the power of Morgoth Bauglir! The Sil. This shows that it was Finduilas falling in love with Túrin that caused her to become enmeshed in the Curse of Morgoth Not the Curse causing her to fall in Love.

[Bethelarien]

This shows that it was Finduilas falling in love with Túrin that caused her to become enmeshed in the Curse of Morgoth Not the Curse causing her to fall in Love.
True, Gothmog, but one could also argue that Finduilas fell in love to bring Turin sorrow. Therefore, the turning of her love to Turin would be because of the curse of Morgoth.

[Chymaera]

It is a shame that Bethelarien is debating on her own in this very difficult and demanding debate
She has done very well and she should be applauded.

But I have been itching all week to present my view on this debate.


The three people involved in this relation are Finduilas, Gwindor, and Túrin. Finduilas and Gwindor had a relationship before Gwindor left to fight in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (472 First Age). Gwindor left a tall valiant prince and leader in his prime. Then no news returns of his fate, considering what news of the war they did hear Finduilas had to assume that Gwindor was dead.

Gwindor was captured at the very gates of Angband and taken as prisoner to the mines. ...for Gwindor was now a bent and fearful shadow of his former self and mood... When Gwindor finally returns to Finduilas at Nargothrond(490 First Age) 18 years have passed. Much can change in the heart of one who has lost a loved one.
Finduilas had to cope with the fact that Gwindor was lost to her and had to close her heart on that grief and pain.

Gwindor a prisoner had only his love, which grew even greater, for Finduilas to sustain him in the dark hard labour and torture of the mines. His love motivated him to seek escape and not to give up hope.

Now there are many kinds of love; love of a mother love of a child, love of family and friends, love of a man and a woman, love of husband and wife, all these loves are different and also the same.

The ultimate love for elves is when two decide to wed, for elves wed only once in their lives (and that can be a long time indeed). Nonetheless among the Eldar, even in Aman, the desire for marriage was not always fullfilled. Love was not always returned; and more that one might desire one other for spouse. Concerning this, the only cause by which sorrow entered the bliss of Aman, the Valar were in doubt. Some held that it came from the marring of the Arda, and from the Shadow under which the Eldar awoke; Some held tha it came form love itself, and of the freedon of each fëa, and was a mystery of the nature of the Childern of Eru.
Laws and Customs among the Eldar, Morgoth's Ring If Finduilas and Gwindor had been together in this period I am sure that this love would have grow to its ultimate. But due to the circumstance of their seperation, love was denyed.


At first his own people did not know Gwindor, who went out young and strong, and returned now seeming as one of the aged among mortal Men, because of his torments and his labours; but Finduilas daughter of Orodreth the King knew him and welcomed him, for she had loved him beforethe Nirnaeth, and so greatly did Gwindor love her beauty that he named her Faelirvin, which is the gleam of the sun in the pools of Irvin.So Finduilas love for Gwindor has wained. Perhaps time would have healed this wound, but this they did not have. For with Gwindor was Túrin....dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eye, and his face was more beautiful than any other among mortal Men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were that of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken for one of the great houses of the Noldor; therefore many called him Adanedhel; the Elf-Man. What chance did Gwindor have against someone like that? Túrin did not even have to try to attract Finduilas' attentions. He had other things on his mind.

Time and circumstance were the downfall of the Love of Finduilas and Gwindor. Why look any further for reasons.

[Ancalagon]

Aulë, I know you are running a tight schedule, so is the duration of this particular debate complete?

[Aulë]

There is still another 7 hours left.
I shaln't be online then, so please restrain yourself after the time has elapsed. ;)

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Bethelarien
True, Gothmog, but one could also argue that Finduilas fell in love to bring Turin sorrow. Therefore, the turning of her love to Turin would be because of the curse of Morgoth. Not so. While Morgoth could cause Fear He could not do so with an emotion that he did not even know in himself. It was beyond his Comprehension much less his control. Morgoth could twist such an emotion with his curse but love itself is alien to the idea of such a curse created in Hate and Spite.

A second point on this. To cause Finduilas to fall in love with anyone Morgoth would have needed to include her in the curse in the first place else she would not be affected by it. Túrin was in many ways an admirable man. Had it not been for the curse he would probably have been much like his father. Also he had been raised in Doriath by Elu Thingol who had visited Valinor itself and seen the Two Trees first of all Elves save his two companions, and Melian the Maia, there was no doubt even at this point in his life, much in him to be seen of the upbringing of this fostering. Is it any wonder then that an Elven woman was drawn to him?

Finduilas fell in love with Túrin because of what she saw. Although she know of the curse because of the words of Gwindor, she was drawn to the Noble side of Túrin and because of this became caught up in his doom. The Curse of Morgoth Twisted her love to cause sorrow. It could not cause that love.

[Aulë]

Time is up.

This debate is now closed.