TTF Debate Tournament: discussion thread

[Turgon]

As you may or may not have noticed the Debate Tournament has officially started. I'm not sure if we even have a team to field at the moment, I know a few of you put your name down to take part in this. So could you make it known whether you are interested or not I'd apprieciate it. I think we will have to work pretty fast on this!

On another note, I'm still looking for somebody to take on the role of Debate Captain. Not only will this person be responsible for choosing teams and co-ordinating our efforts in inter-guild debate, he will also be responsible for any intra-guild debating activities during times of peace. I think this is a position that really needs to be filled, so if any one is interested let me know, preferably sooner rather than later.

Cheers, Turgon.

[Chymaera]

I would like to join the debate. I will be avalible till Monday night, May 19th but we would have to hustle. So I could start off the debate or I will be back again by the 24th and finish.

Neither would be very good would it?:(

[Gothmog]

If needed I am available for the debate.

[Arvedui]

If you need members for the team, I am interested. I'll be available monday through friday this week, and monday + tuesday the next week.
I'll be pretty busy in June though.

[Turgon]

The debate is scheduled for to last from the 18th to the 24th - so I see no problems Arvedui. I guess we could give you a few days off considering all the work you did in the last debate...;)

Chymaera - I have no objections to you debating on the first and last days if you're interested. It would be a shame if you missed out on all these debates due to your commitments in the week.

The Mighty Gothmog is always welcome...:D

So then - the team so far is:

Arvedui,
Chymaera,
and Gothmog,

Anc are you interested in taking part in this one? Let me know - I think we need this team up sometime today.

[Ancalagon]

I would be more than happy to debate on behalf of Ost-in-Edhil.

[Chymaera]

Very well :)

We are ready then.

I wonder what mischief Maedhros has up his sleeve for us?

He is generating the topics.

[Aulë]

Hehe- I know what it is.
You'll love it ;)

[Arvedui]

We do!;)
And stop that gloating!:mad:

[Aulë]

Are you going to post soon?
I might have to forfeit you if you don't... ;)

[Turgon]

We need to get going here Ost-in-Edhilites, all the other debates are under way, and we need to make the first post. This tournament is being run to a strict time limit - so into the breach my friends!

Walter and I will be waiting on the sidelines with some oranges and the magic sponge...:)

[Ancalagon]

I have already stated my position in a number of PMs and would be willing to iopen the debate for Ost-in-Edhil. However, as no-one was sure which side to take should i just go ahead and post? If I am wrong, well so be it but at least we have chosen a side. If this be good to The Guildmaster, I will try and complete an opener this very night;)

[Turgon]

Sorry Anc, didn't see your post - busy reading that humdinger of a debate between the Periaur and the Scholars.

Go ahead and open - and here's hoping we will soon have a Captain to organise all these debating issues...:)

[Bethelarien]

Erm...not to butt in or anything, but when is OiE going to open the debate? Just out of curiosity, you understand. :D

[Ancalagon]

Well guys, as we had not decided or agreed on which direction we should go, and no-one else had decided to take the bull by the horns so to speak, I had to go ahead and make our opener. I think for the next debate we can brainstorm a little better and take some learning points from this one. Either way, let's go and win one for OiE:D

[Chymaera]

I did try to get started, but I liked the way you twisterd those bull horns.:)

[Arvedui]

Whats all this rush about getting started?
"Lets not be hasty"

Aulë should acknowledge that we need time to find the glasses on our foreheads, and get our slippers on!;)

BTW: A splendid opening by the mighty Dragon!

[Turgon]

The squad for the Ost-in-Edhil debate team is as follows:

Ancalagon,
Arvedui,
Chymaera,
Chrysophalax?
Gothmog,
Turgon.

As you can see we have a small team here, so I think we will have to work on a two debates on and one off principle to have all the matches covered.

Chrys and I will take part in the next debate, I guess the other two will be chosen from who ever is available at the time.

Just a heads up.

[Aulë]

Chrysophalax is already on the Outcasts team.
Looks like you'll be having 4 debates on, 1 debate off. ;)

[Turgon]

That's for Chrysophalax to decide I think, I understand that she didn't think she was needed in our team due to the fact I didn't invite her to join us. But the truth is this tournament took me by surprise I and didn't think to send any invites out. But seeing as Chrys has not yet participated in any of the debates, I say let her choose for herself.

What say you Master Aulë?

[Aulë]

That's fine with me.
Chrys gets to choose whatever Guild she wishes to represent in the Tournament.
Although the Outcasts do have less members at the moment compared to yourselves.
And I was o so looking forward to seeing Walter having a bit of a debate too. :)

[Turgon]

Ah I didn't realise that Aulë - well if Chrys wants to join the Outcasts for the Tournament that's cool. As for Walter - I'd love to see him taking part too - not too sure if he is interested in all this debating lark though.

Walter is there no way we can convince you?

[Ancalagon]

I too would like to see Walter partake of a few debates;) What about Pale-King, he checked-in so i guess he would be prepared to join the team?!

[Arvedui]

We do net to get more members on that list.

I am unavailable most of the time during rounds 2 & 3, and also 5 & 6.

And both Walter and Pale-King would be great contributors.

[chrysophalax]

Have I not been branded as the Dragon of Ost-in-Edhel? I will indeed compete with the King of Gondolin!

[Ancalagon]

Should we not be due a response sometime soon from The Guild of Elves/Dwarves? Surely we were castigated for not making an initial opening post in time?

[Chymaera]

Hail, Mighty chrysophalax! Your aid was sorrily needed ;)

Hopefully the Dwarves/Elves will pick it up as we have two more days.

I have some points I would like to make and I don't want it to look like we were all ganging up on Bethelarien

[Ancalagon]

Sadly Chymaera, the nature of the debate is to win, though I agree with you, she has been brave enough to make a stand on her own, so she should be allowed to get a reply in first...before you deal the final debate death blow;)

And to think Beth was originally a member of Ost-in-Edhil, but became disillusioned and departed!!

[Chymaera]

:) My death blow will probably give her the opening she needs to defeat us ;)

[chrysophalax]

Thanks, Chymeara...I'm just hanging around until my turn comes in Round 2. Hopefully I won't have to slink way in shame!;)

[Arvedui]

One other thing:
This Guild are also named as hosts in rounds 2 & 3.
Round 2: Tolkien vs. Periaur.
Round 3: Scholars vs. Tolkien

So, we have to come up with someone to take care of the hosting, and a topic.
I have PM'ed Turgon concerning round 2, but I don't think it is right to post suggested topics here in the open. Or perhaps that doesn't matter as long as what we have decided don't get public until after the debates start.

Comments?

[Chymaera]

Okay I think I could host round 2. I am taking that week off to help out around at home and a little R&R;)

The host Starts the thread in the Home guild and as Aulë has done here, makes sure the teams are formed and ready to go and then recuits the jugdes from the other Guilds to (I think the four other guilds and the host judge the debate)

I will debate again too going against the Scowlers should be interesting:)

We should rotate the hosting duties *shrug*Originally posted by chrysophalax
Thanks, Chymeara...I'm just hanging around until my turn comes in Round 2. Hopefully I won't have to slink way in shame!
:eek: A Great Dragon like yourself would only slink when finding a comfortable position on your golden hoard and there would be no shame about it!!:D

[Arvedui]

I have been able to rearrange my schedule somewhat.

I have got more time on my hands during round 2!

So that means I can either debate or host.

[Chymaera]

Some times you have to do both or maybe not I did not see any restriction on that.

I will not fight over hosting duty but we should work something out.

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Chymaera
I will not fight over hosting duty but we should work something out.

Neither will I.
I was just checking the debate schedule, when I saw that we are supposed to be hosting as well. That is why I made a post about it, since it was not mentioned before.
And since I contributed with such force :rolleyes: in the previous debate, I thought that I could let someone else do the debating in the next round.
If someone else wants to do the hosting, then I am very happy about that!

BTW: When and where will the judging commence?

[Chymaera]

7 days after the debate started then the host starts the jugding thread.

I have already been asked to judge.

Outcast vs Tolkienology,



We all will be jugding eventually.

[Turgon]

The OiE will be hosting several of the forthcoming debates, so everyone who wishes to do the honours for OiE should get their chance. (Me too hopefully - I have an evil question in mind!?!)

So unless there are any objections...

Arvedui will host Round 2: The Tolkienologists vs The Periaur
and Chymaera will host Round 3: Scholars vs Tolkienologists

Aulë I presume the host guild is allowed to set their own questions? I'm not too clear on this point.

[Aulë]

Yes, you can come up with your own topics. But you have to PM them to Maedhros first so he can judge whether they are worthy for the Tournament. :)

[Arvedui]

Would it be plain stupid if I post possible questions here, and then you can PM me, telling which one you would prefer?

As long as there is more than one, there would be no telling which one we would end up with.

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by Arvedui

And since I contributed with such force :rolleyes: in the previous debate, I thought that I could let someone else do the debating in the next round.
If someone else wants to do the hosting, then I am very happy about that!



Do not belittle your debating skills. You wil have your opporutuiny:)

Do you have a question yet?

Round two should be starting very soon

By the way I can debate in round 2

[Ancalagon]

I am free for the next debate if my services are required, though I know there are more than enough to choose from, so if any are unavailable I will happily fill the gap!

[Turgon]

I believe our next debate is against the scholars - should be quite a match!

Okay then it looks like we have our team:

Ancalagon,
Chrysophalax,
Chymaera,
and Turgon.

[Ancalagon]

If Arvedui wants to debate I can wait for the next, as he did not get the opportunity in the last one!

[Scatha]

Gentlemen,

Is the team ready for the debate against the Scolars?

I will be hosting the debate and am looking forward to it. :)

[Chymaera]

Welcome Scatha, we eagerly await the opening of your thread. But of course, a bit apprehencive of the new question.;):)

As it should be.

The Team should be as above until we hear from Arvedui.

[Anamatar IV]

Greetings, Ost-in-Edhil. I need a judge from this guild in the Guild of Elves vs Guild of Outcasts debate. If one person could volunteer, that'd be great. Thanks!:)

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Chymaera
The Team should be as above until we hear from Arvedui.

I'll be perfectly happy with waiting until a later round. Perhaps Round #4.

[Ancalagon]

Ok guys and gals, which side of the debate are we taking? I suggest we PM our positions to Turgon complete with a reason for our choice, then he can make the opening statement on the Guilds behalf!

[Chymaera]

I don't know how much that these debates are accomplishing in the way of furthering the Knowledge of Tolkien, but there can be a perverse pleasure in getting your point across.;)

[Arvedui]

So I've noticed.

You are doing very well! Very well indeed.

[Ancalagon]

I see Snaga is already preparing the next round of the Debating Tournament for Ost-in-Edhil vs Outcasts! Who is the team?

For reference, I will here for another week, then back for a few days before departing for another 8 weeks, so if required, I can participate in one more then I will be out of the loop for the remainder of the tournament.

[Scatha]

I'll be there again too, Anc, but as a judge. ;)

I am waiting for Nom to give the deciding vote in this round however.

[Ancalagon]

Have you judged the 2nd round debate yet?

[Scatha]

I have, but didn't make my post so elaborate. I voted for a draw however.

[chrysophalax]

What was the final result of Round #2?

[Turgon]

Chrys, the judging has not finished yet, but things are pretty close - could go either way...:D

Anymore takers for the debate against the Outcasts? I am willing debate, so I guess so far the team is:

Ancalagon,
Turgon.

[Ancalagon]

Yep, let's face it, 4 minds are better than 2:D

[chrysophalax]

I can debate again *prays for a really cool topic* heh, heh...look out Yay!!;)

[Nóm]

Two dragons and Noldo King! :eek:

Gnome is frightened indeed!

Maybe that balrog will show up soon? Would be quite a battle! But if not maybe that last King wants to battle?

[Snaga]

I think you'll like the topic... :D

Yes I am hosting your next round match, and the thread is posted here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12095)

Unfortunately it got overlooked in the creation of the tournament forum but I've asked for it to be moved across. In the meantime I will post the hopefully really cool topic, as soon as we have your team.:)

[Ancalagon]

Okidoki,

We have Chrysophalax, Turgon and myself so far! We need one more member of Ost-in-Edhil this very evening so Turgon (if Turgon is not about I will post it) can post the team and Snaga can get the debate underway. So, come on OiE, get your finger out and join your team;)

[Arvedui]

I wish I could, but where I am spending the coming week, there is no internet-connection. Sorry.

[Chymaera]

I'll debate but I am back to just one or two days a week :(

[Ancalagon]

Hehe, that'll be just fine I am sure Chymaera:) Turgon cleverly marked you down as 'Ghost' so pop in when you can and scare the beejezus out of the Outcasts, then everyone will be happy;)

[Chymaera]

We just might have four ghost left by the end of this tourney :eek:

Am I allowed to purr a bit from that last debate.:D

[Arvedui]

Tell me: is there only five of us that are interested in participating in the tournament?
What about the others? Like Walter, or RD?

[Ancalagon]

Well, I guess they know the tournament exists, so it would be entirely up to them to nominate themselves. This will be my last debate of the tournament, so I would hope more members of Ost-in-Edhil volunteer their services on behalf of the Guild!

[chrysophalax]

Purr away, Chymeara! You're my hero!

[Nóm]

Oh the young hot-head is back to pester her favorite guild! ;)

Great to have finally been allowed the high honour of getting to debate with OiE, and under such nice circumstances.

So how was the debate guys?

Have fun?

Ancalagon: Was it everything you expected it would be? Did you feel a least the slightest bit of a threat at any point in it?

Oh wow I sure hope so!

Did you take us seriously?

Please say you did. ;) x 1,000,000.

Oh and of course, I wont forget to mention that I had fun with the debate. Sure is good to know you guys could spare the time!

[Chymaera]

Well I'll let you know that the combination of Nóm and YayGollum is pretty potent;)

I had fun, I was surprised that you took the side that you took but you played it well.:)


======

I'll play in the next round if you need me. am leaving for work back on Saturday(I hope)

[Arvedui]

I can take part in some of the upcoming debate also, at least until wednesday next week, and then a bit from sunday to tuesday.

That is the problem of summer: being required to do things with the family, and not being able to participate on the Forum:mad:

(That last part was something called irony...) ;)

[Beleg]

Looking forward debating the Eldars. :)

Spcially Ancalagon....I love his debating style. :)

[Arvedui]

Beleg: go five post up from yours...

Sorry to spoil you fun, but you will have to settle with the rest of the old-timers.

Now, if only I could find my wheelchair and hearing apparatus...

[Ancalagon]

Don´t worry Beleg, you will still have your work cut out for you as there are better members in the Guild than me at debating, I have no doubt you shall have great difficulty in facing them in the coming week;)

[Arvedui]

Speaking of which: do we have a team for the upcoming debate against the Tolkienologists?
It has been frightfully quiet here for the last days...

Not that silence is unusual amongst the Eldar... :rolleyes: :D

[Arvedui]

Hello, anyone here?

*Listens to the echo reverberating through the empty halls of Ost-in-Edhil*

[Maedhros]

You might want to posts your team for the next debate against the Guild of Tolk.

[Chymaera]

so Me and Arvedui anyone else?

no Anc

Maybe Gothmog or chys or of course
Turgon?

We could post two ghosts:)

[Arvedui]

And I will probably be gone half of the time...
This is what you get for being adult and having responsibilities...

But we'll still smack them, Chymaera!

[Turgon]

I can be on the team at a pinch: very busy at the moment though - so I can't promise to be that great of contributor. That being said I should be fine towards the end of the week...

Gah! Ghost King is right - how shameful...:eek:

[Ancalagon]

I am sorry to say I will be most likely unable to participate as I will be away for a month from Sunday onwards, without Internet usage I might add. I would hope to see some of our other Guild members make an attempt at supporting the Guild for this debate as the showing has been rather poor to say the least.

[Ancalagon]

Ok, as no-one has offered themselves up for the final position (at least publicly as far as I know) I would like to join the team until Saturday, when I will no longer be available!! Is this ok with you lot?

[Ancalagon]

Ok, so now I have been informed by Maedhros that we were to have a 4th member for the team, though I would have preferred it to have been announced in either the Guild or the debate, then I wouldnt have rushed in like such a fool!

[chrysophalax]

Ancalagon...no worries! Arvedui drafted me at the last moment...but as I have been in the last two, I glady step aside for a Dragon far greater than I.

[Ancalagon]

I am the least of Dragons in the Guild, yea, verily I am but a footstool for your claws my mighty fiend.

Anyhoo, maybe we can agree with Tolks to change players on Saturday, as apparently Gate7ole is unable to complete this debate like I who will finish on Saturday?! Just a thought, as I know Lhun was considering replacing him!

[chrysophalax]

Fine by me!

"mighty fiend" hmmmmmmm... uh,thanks!

Btw...anyone hear from Gothmog? I miss the old Balrog-lord!

[Arvedui]

This debate-tournament seems more and more like a tag-team debate:D
"Who's here during the week-end?"
'I'm on, but I'll be gone by monday!'

Oh, well. I guess that's the downside of having responsibilities:(

(Perhaps I should consider a separation before the next tournament?);)

[chrysophalax]

A Dragon tag-team...I like the sound of that...anyway, I got your back, Great One!

[chrysophalax]

Unless someone tells me otherwise...I'll be posting later on tonight...

[Arvedui]

I am sorry for seemingly letting the Guild down in the debate against the Tolkienologists, but I lost my Internet-connection at home, and was unable to get back online.
So afr, it has not been repaired, but I have been promised that it will be fixed during this week, so I will probably be able to be a part of the next round as well.

If only the company can keep their servers protected from lightning.... :rolleyes:

[Chymaera]

Have you been getting lightening too? That seems to be all I have seen for the last two days.

Don't get down on yourself about the debates. You have been doing just fine. I notice that one judge has voted for us so far. And that is never a bad thing. :)

I think that we did as good as can be expected.

We may not be too coordinated but we hit them from all angles;)

I think that as long as we don't get too concerned about our standings on the scoreboard try to give the best arguement that we can. Then we should be fine.


We debate the Tweens next and Anamatar is hosting again. I don't know when that one starts but we should start getting ready. Since we are so few I will debate again.

Who else can debate?

[Arvedui]

Lots of lightning.
There are phonelines down all over the southern Norway.

Hitting them from all angles? We sure did. I think our lack of coordination worked in our favour. At least Eriol seemed thrown off balance:D

Difficult topic though, so many questions could be derived from it.
But I was planning on continuing with the selflishness of Beren's quest, and hit our opponents with why Morgoth and Sauron were allowed to live. But the way you finished off, it was perhaps just as good that I couldn't post...;)

[Chymaera]

Well the subject was a bit undefined:)

And I did not want us to get caught offering uncanoncal senarios - that way would have lead no where.

Maybe in this case less was more *shrug* :)

You can come to the next debate can't you?

[Arvedui]

When is it scheduled?

I am working this week, and then I will be home for one week before I am going on holiday for a week. So, in theory, I will be available until friday 25th

Then there will be a period until at least August 4th when I am not available. After that, I am not sure, as I am about to change assignment, and when I get my internet-connection working is hidden from me...

[Chymaera]

I don't know whaat is happening I think that htey are going to back off for one week and the start round 5. but I am not sure. I am not going to be on for the first weekend of August so I we are going to be very thin that week:eek::)

goin' fishing :D

[Arvedui]

Fishing eh?
I was fishing this week-end. Jolly fun.

Had to eat burgers for dinner though... :(

I am so lousy at fishing!

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Fishing eh?
I was fishing this week-end. Jolly fun.

Had to eat burgers for dinner though... :(

I am so lousy at fishing!

Catching fish is not the mark of a successful fishing trip, you know.

It is just the fact that you are not at work at the time.;):D

[Lhunithiliel]

Ah you two!!!!!!!!! :eek:

Wickedly gossipping?!?!!!!!! :mad: (;) )

Then .... let me wish you both more lightning-weather while you go out fishing! :p :p :p :D

[Arvedui]

Lhun, that could be dangerous!
Do you have something against us?

[Arvedui]

The next round is coming up. Who will be participating this time?
We are up against the Periaur, and if I remember correctly, we will choose side this time. I will be able to participate in the beginning of the debate, but only until friday. So if anyone can debate for the whole period, then I think they should have priority.

[Aulë]

You are against the almighty Periaur :) (I think we have a 2-0 record against you ;) )

The debate starts tomorrow (19th July - 25th July)
You shall choose the stance.

[Arvedui]

And so far it seems as if I am the only surviving member of this Guild...:(

[Chymaera]

You are getting depressed again Arvedui :)

Me, you and the ghosts will take on the Tweens;)

Maedhros really liked your argurments in the last one.

So Team Ost-in-Edhil will be:
Arvedui
Chymaera
chrysophalax
and ghost

I will post this team and PM everyone but the sooner the better as only have today to help start

[Arvedui]

I would have put both of you on the team anyway, even if you had not responded.:D
Glad to have you along. Maybe we shall try to agree on something before we start this time?:D

I only sound depressed because I was hoping that the "almighty" Australian had gotten lost in the bush on his walkabout.:(

[Arvedui]

Anamatar have just opened the thread, so I posted the team you announced.

Beat you to it!:D

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Arvedui
I only sound depressed because I was hoping that the "almighty" Australian had gotten lost in the bush on his walkabout.:(

That's not a very nice thing to say ;)
I would have thought that you would have preferred Snaga to have gotten lost in America ;)
(I've heard that it is rather easy to do so in Wonk's closet ;) :p

[Chymaera]

Arvedui,

You and chrys, will have to start this one off as I have to go out on the road again. But I will be back (I hope:))

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Aulë
That's not a very nice thing to say ;)
I would have thought that you would have preferred Snaga to have gotten lost in America ;)
(I've heard that it is rather easy to do so in Wonk's closet ;) :p

Nah, just kidding:)
Glad to have you back. I hope you had an interesting stay out in the wild.
I don't know about Wonk's closet, as I have never been there...

[Chymaera]

I actually got home for a bit in the middle of the week!!:)

Excellent start to the debate Arvedui;)

[Arvedui]

So, a 3-2 win over the Tolkienologists! I'm impressed.
To be honest, I didn't think we could haul that one off. Congratulations to us!

[Gothmog]

Sorry to have been away. I have had some problems but they are now sorted. :)

So to borrow a much used phrase:

I'm Baa-aack. :D

Anybody got a use for a rather tired Balrog. :)

[Arvedui]

Well, there is this ghost that we would be very happy to replace in the debate against Periaur. And the Lord of Balrogs is always welcome, tired or not. If you are in for it, I'll check our opponents to see if its OK by them. Better ask them first, since we have already started.
Ther thread is here. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12518) but it has been halted because of Tookish have some problems logging on.

I'll send a PM to both Anamatar and Aulë straightaway. And I'll send you one as well, with what we have thought of so far.

[Ancalagon]

Hello all! How are things going in the land of OiE? Gothmog, nice to see you returned, your ominous presence is always missed;)

[Gothmog]

Arvedui, I am always ready to join in a debate :). Also I have missed too many so far. I have receved your PM and await confermation of being in the team. :)

Hello Anc I hope to catch you on MSN soon. :)

[Chymaera]

Gothmog, I glad that your life has been sorted out (I wish that I could do that too:D)

If you can't debate this round you most definately can be in the next four rounds.

(Are you back as that blonde girl from Poltergiest or as the Robot from the Terminator?):D:D;)

[Arvedui]

Gothmog, you're on the team!
Glad to have you aboard! And back!!!:)

[Arvedui]

I guess I was too quick in claiming victory against the Tolkienologists.

They have issued a protest against two of the judges!
It is not the first time they are using energy protesting everything that is not running their way...:rolleyes:

[Arvedui]

I am going away for a few days, and won't be back until August 4th or 5th. Good luck with the debate.

And, oh, if the next debate runs after August 4th or 5th, I can participate if the team can't be filled.

[Ancalagon]

Does no-one in this Guild get the slight feeling that our last efforts against the 'other Guild' are being completely undermined? Having read though all their whinging I have come to the conclusion that no matter what the judges think, no matter what we posted it is all irrelevant, because unless the vote goes their way there must be a mistake in the entire process. Personally I am disgusted by this whole fiasco and won't be bothering my ass to enter any further debates.

[Chymaera]

The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil has to provid a Host for the debate tournament in round 6, starting on August 3.

If you have a question that you would like aired:)
between the Periaurs and Scholars.

Arvedui and I have had our shot. Also I will be gone from the first till the fifth of August.

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Does no-one in this Guild get the slight feeling that our last efforts against the 'other Guild' are being completely undermined? Having read though all their whinging I have come to the conclusion that no matter what the judges think, no matter what we posted it is all irrelevant, because unless the vote goes their way there must be a mistake in the entire process. Personally I am disgusted by this whole fiasco and won't be bothering my ass to enter any further debates. The thing is that we won't gain anything by wading into the fray and get into a non-Tolkien debate.

But that is no reason to give up on the whole tournament.

Hopefully Maedhros (as host) will be able to conclude this without much more flap.

Besides Eirol wrote the rules up and they are quite clear.;)

Not much provision for changing judges votes.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Chymaera

Besides Eirol wrote the rules up and they are quite clear.;)

Not much provision for changing judges votes.

Aside from mispelling my name, Chymaera, I'd like to say this: THANKS!! I could not very well point it out without going against my own Guild, but I was dying to see it pointed out by someone.

:D

You have fulfilled my confidence in O-i-E's judgment ;).

I hope this makes it crystal clear that the point of our protest is to prevent future judgments such as those seen in this case; and I hope you see why we think this kind of judgment is undesirable (even if you can't say it in public :) ).

The judges are supposed to be above any appeal, or so I thought when I wrote the rules; I don't know if this interpretation of mine will be followed, of course, they have "come of age" after all. But if I was the supreme judge of the rules I would say that the votes stand; even when the judgments are very flawed.

Unless, of course, the judge being criticized agrees that his judgment was flawed and changes it voluntarily, something which should be exceedingly rare, knowing human nature and how a judge would defend his own reasoning, no matter its quality :D; but it is possible, and it happened in the debate between GoE and GoS. In my own interpretation of the rules, I don't think any other power can change a vote besides the judge himself; and to replace judges should be such a drastic and serious step that many restrictions should be placed upon it, none of them foreseen by the rules, which is why I'm against it in principle (as the rules stand now).

My "dream ending" for this "fiasco" is the acknowledgment by the judges that they should have read the thread more attentively, or written their opinions with more care, or both; while hopefully setting some guidelines for how the judges should deal with ambiguous questions. I don't hope that any change in the votes will actually take place.

This "dream ending" involves a score of O-i-E 3 x 2 Tolk; unless the judge(s) retract their judgment, which as I said I think very difficult.

Eventually, we will have judges as skilled as your debators in the end of this Tournament; but if we never point out the flaws in the judgments, this won't happen.

Finally, I'd like to say that I'm rooting for your guild :D.

[Lhunithiliel]

I am sorry guys for posting into your thread, but I just wish to say that we do not seek for fights.

I am only so very much sorry to see how some stupid scores can spoil good and friendly relations!
Sad! :(

I suggest we don't let this happen!

[Chymaera]

Sorry about the spelling Eriol (at least I got all the right letters:)) But I agree wholeheartidly with you.

Lhun, Myself I don't mind the protest, but I do not see how much satisfaction you will get out of it win or lose.

[Lhunithiliel]

The only satisfaction to me personally will be and has always been in a debate to read clever and good arguments as I had this opportunity in the debate with your Guild.

What I think is that the people from our guild who debated against your team will at least be satisfied to understand that what they did was as good as what you did.

[Chymaera]

I will just walk away from all this and hope that when I come back that things are all friendly again:)

See you all after August 5

[Nóm]

Hello OiE,

I am hosting your next debate against GoE/D.

Round 6: GoE/D vs. OiE (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=12637)

Will you please submit your team as soon as it is known?

Thanks

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Does no-one in this Guild get the slight feeling that our last efforts against the 'other Guild' are being completely undermined? Having read though all their whinging I have come to the conclusion that no matter what the judges think, no matter what we posted it is all irrelevant, because unless the vote goes their way there must be a mistake in the entire process. Personally I am disgusted by this whole fiasco and won't be bothering my ass to enter any further debates.

Yes, I have (or rather had ) that same exact feeling, which is why I fired off a rather insulting post in the judgement thread. And that is also why I deleted it, not because I chickened out. It is not a wise thing to do, posting early in the morning, when you get angry.
Nevertheless, it seems as if Maedhros have come to a conclution that the judges have the right to make up their own mind, and everyone seems to agree that judges must put some effort in explaining their views better.

I hope that you change your mind about participating, Anc. This Guild unfortunately does not have a lot of members, which makes it nescesarry (sp?) for us to participate again and again.
I have changed my working-place now, which means I will be very seldom available during week-ends, but a bit more available during weekdays.

[Ancalagon]

Don't take everything I say to heart Arvedui;) That was a week ago I made that rant and this Dragon's blood does not usually boil for any longer than a day or two at most:D

I was angry, as I probably misinterpreted the true nature of the complaints by Tolks...I simply thought that our ability to present our arguement was wasted upon them, irrespective of the judges votes. I guess I got the impression they felt our position held no water, therefore no value.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Nevertheless, it seems as if Maedhros have come to a conclution that the judges have the right to make up their own mind, and everyone seems to agree that judges must put some effort in explaining their views better.
Seems? And when have I said otherwise?

[Arvedui]

Never.
That was not meant for you;) , but for 'the other Guild....':D

Sorry if I made the impression that I ever thought otherwise. After all, I wasn't the one to call you inept... :cool:

----
Now, for Round 6. The opposing Guild have asked for a postponement until August 12, and the Host(ess) have dropped out for some reason. Anyone else think we should accept the postponement? I know I do.

[Chymaera]

May be we could make up the debate after the rest of the tournament has been completed ( kind of like a raincheck)

I am not home for another two days and we need some one to be host for round six.

I have a question that has already been approved by Maedhros that I think that we could use. (if he hasn't given it to some one else*shrug*):)

Hey Lief caught a 19.5 inch Pickerel this weekend (but I had to releace it:()

[Arvedui]

I like that 'raincheck' idea.
Suddenly, my whole schedule for the coming two weeks was blown away, and I don't have many days available until august 18th:rolleyes: :(
So I guess I am out of the hosting-business as well.


Why on earth did you release that one?

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by Arvedui

Why on earth did you release that one? :D
you have to release the ones between 18" and 28" to make more little fishes for next year;)

But we caught about 18 fish in the 13" range that were fine eating:)

[Chymaera]

For the Round six debate I posted this team:


Chymaera
Arvedui
Ancalagon
Gothmog



We are starting late because they only had one debator avialable so I think that everyone should be ready on the 12th of August.

chrysophalax and Turgon and Ravenna and Pale King

If you want to debate I will give up my spot for you

And if you want to debate let us know.

[Arvedui]

I wonder when they are going to start...
I cannot guarantee that I am online in the week-ends. Currently I am commuting on a weekly basis, and therefore TTF is not the first priority in the week-ends. (It is 1500+ km's each way... no kidding!)

[Chymaera]

:eek: But...but... What do you mean that TTF is not your first priority?

What could possibly be more important??!!:D

Although I will concede that 1500 clicks is kind of hard to do (unless you are flying, of course)

I do about 4000 kms a week - average (but I am away from home and they are paying me a little for my time:D)

[Arvedui]

Of course I am flying. If you ever had experienced the standard of norwegian roads, you wouldn't have asked. They are horrible:eek: It would take me 24 hours of constant driving just to get one way.

Fortunately, I get a number of flight for free every month, so it would not be as expensive as it sounds. I wish they could pay me for it though...:D

[Chymaera]

Congratulations to Gothmog on covering almost all the bases in the Round 6 debate:)

I am sure that my lame post did not help much that time.

But I seems that Round 7 is going to start this Sunday (tommorrow!)

Gil-Galad is already asking for the teams to post their line-ups.

We are up against the Scholar's again.

Who is up for the challenge?
Or do we go with the same team as before?

[Gothmog]

Thank you. Your help was appreciated. :)

I am ready to have a go in round 7 also. :)

[Ancalagon]

Hmm, it just didnt seem right to join in the last debate...it would have been similar to the last time we debated against them and that felt a little unfair. Gothmog and Chymaera it seems did enough to settle the discussion.

AS for the next debate, I thought there was going to be a bit of a break in between them? I would be happy to debate, but I am pretty busy until Thursday.

[Arvedui]

I think I can participate in round 7.
I am stuck at home for the coming weeks, after a surgeon did his best to slit my throat. I don't feel in top form right now, but if it waits for a few more days, I'll be good and ready.
And hopefully participating a bit more than the last round.

If other members want to participate, they can take my place. If not, I am ready for combat... sorry, action.;)

[Arvedui]

As we have four, I have posted the same team as in round 6. I don't think we should wait and wait. Last round was on the brink of becoming a farce, and I don't think anyone wants a repetition of that one. The waiting-time, that is, not the debate itself.:)

[Aulë]

When shall Chymaera be judging the Round 6 GoS v GotP debate? She has been holding it up for over 2 weeks now.
Perhaps another OiE judge could replace her?

[Ancalagon]

Chymaera is a 'he'

If he is unavailable, another one of the Guild will fill in for him before the end of the week. I have a judgement to make for Baragund, when I get a chance to sort that out later today or tomorrow, I will look at the thread in question.

[Aulë]

Woops :o
Sorry about that. But I called him a 'he' the other day, and I was told that he was a 'she'. (That person shall remain annonymous...although her TTF name is 3 letters long...;) )

[Arvedui]

...and you have to work at it a little to get the middle letter right...;)

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Aulë
Woops :o
Sorry about that. But I called him a 'he' the other day, and I was told that he was a 'she'. (That person shall remain annonymous...although her TTF name is 3 letters long...;) )
I do not think I told you Chymaera is a 'she'.

I know and have known for some time that Chymaera is a he as sure as I know you and Arvedui are.

Anyhow Chymaera, I didn't do it! I think?

By the way OiE, its almost time for you guys to go against GoO again. Hopefully Gothmog will be on your team for that one?

And this time, if you win, please don't tell me AFTER you won that you are sorry for not having put more effort into it. Two of you did that last time! This is obviously what it sounds like: 'Even though we smeared you into the ground, sorry we did not try harder.' Or even:'We took it sooooo easy and still whooped you.'

[Aulë]

Well someone told me that....
It may have been Maedhros...
I can't remember these sorts of things. I think the 'mystery' person must have gotten Chymaera mixed up with Chrysolophax.

[chrysophalax]

Chrysolophax? God bless you! That's Chrysophalax, Ollie...uh, Aule!

And Chymaera...it's good to know I'm not the only one Aule has to goad to judge...heh...

[Ancalagon]

Hello people!

Well done to Arvedui and Gothmog who fought for Ost-in-Edhil against the Scholars. Please accept my deepest apologies for not offering more in the way of support, my last ditch, poorly thought out post was way below standard and not nearly as well prepared as it ought to have been.

We need more debators. We need members of Ost-in-Edhil to get their fingers out of their asses and support the Guild because the same people cannot be expected to continually try and debate week after week. Personally, I have far too much going on to do this, as I am sure most of us have, but sharing the responsibility would be a bonus:(

The next debate is coming up against Outcasts and a team needs to be named. I have no idea where Turgon is, but as he seems to have lost interest in the Guild, someone needs to take over the helm. Since there are only 4 or 5 of us who actually do anything for the Guild anymore, I guess we need to come up with something rather sharpish, unless of course the Hidden King reveals himself and has a plan. It would be a shame to let this place become a house of the dead rather than the Fortress of the Eldar it is supposed to be.

So, for this debate, does anyone want to be in the team. I will volunteer myself to begin with, unless of course more people decide they want to debate.

[Aulë]

Ost-in-Edhil also needs to supply a host for Rounds 8 and 9.

[Ancalagon]

Ok M'Aulë,

I'll host round 8 and Gothmog will host 9. So, what do I do?
:p

[Ravenna]

I'm willing to debate if needed, but I warn you my knowledge is somewhat thin in places and at present I only have access to LotR, Sil and UT, so anything deeper than that and I'll probably be way out of my depth.
I'd hate to push out someone with greater knowledge and upset a winning streak!

[Arvedui]

A debate?
When? Where? ;)
Count me in.
And Ravenna, don't be too hard on yourself. I don't think any of us thinks too much about the scoreboard. I participate because I think it is fun (most of the time;) ) and because I learn something new each time (almost). Although I am willing to change my view if there is another 'Beren & Lúthien'-debate coming...

If you have those books you mentioned, then I think you have all that you need. And maybe we can try to swap some ideas and background thoughts via PM's before we post.:)

[Bethelarien]

OiE, FYI, your next debating round is versus the GoO. I will be your host. The debate thread is up, and I would greatly appreciate it if you would post your team so we can get this party started.

And Arvedui, don't worry, it's not another Beren-Luthien topic. :D So feel free to debate. ;)

*And Ancalagon is right. Having the same people debating throughout the whole tournament really sucks. Take it from me. I've debated every single freaking round because my guild is too lazy.*

[Ravenna]

Ok Arvedui. Pm me any time and we can brainstorm:)
Count me in for round 8 and lets see how it goes.

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Ok M'Aulë,

I'll host round 8 and Gothmog will host 9. So, what do I do?
:p
Ta. :)

The details are in the 'Scoreboard' thread in the Tournament Forum, but the basics are:

- Start a thread in the 'Debates' sub-forum.
- Ask for the two Guilds to post their teams.
- Once that is done, post your topic.
- Moniter the debate, to make sure people don't start a ruckus.
- Select 4 judges. (In your case: 1 from GoS, 1 from GoO, 1 from GoT, and 1 member who isn't in any of the debating Guilds)
- Close the debate 7 days after the opening post.
- Start a judging thread (with the names of the judges, including yourself as the 5th judge).
- Judge the debate.
- PM Idril with your 'Best & Fairest' votes (3 votes for the best debator, 2 for the second best, 1 for the third best).

That's all there is to it. :)

[Arvedui]

Okay, we have three members for the debate against GoO:
- Anc
- Ravenna
- Arvedui

Who is the fourth?

[Arvedui]

The topic has been posted, and can be found here. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=365273#post365273)

"Was Feanor right in withholding the Silmarils from the Valar?"

We are the home-team this time, and get to choose side.
I will think it over during the evening, and send a PM to the named members. Unfortunately, I'll be gone from tomorrow until Saturday, so someone else but me might have to open the debate so that we don't hold it for too long.

We are still only three debators, any ideas on who will be number four?

[Gothmog]

We are still only three debators, any ideas on who will be number four? I will join in and make the number up to Three and a half. Will that help? :D

[Arvedui]

Definately.
And it is not nice to describe Anc as 'half'.....:D

[Ancalagon]

Indeed, especially when I barely measure up to a quarter.:D

[Bethelarien]

Very cute, everyone. :D

Not to nag or anything, but could OiE post sometime in the near future? Please?

I realize Arvedui will be gone until Saturday, but I doubt that he is the only one capable of opening this debate (especially having debated against each of you).

Possibly by tomorrow night? :D

[Ravenna]

Sorry for the delay, PC problems!. First post is now up.

[Ancalagon]

And a fine opening post it is Ravenna:D

[Nóm]

Sorry about wussing out. I know how fun it is to debate and I'd be unhappy if the team I went against did not want to debate, but I have to say that I would not feel right about aguing against something that I so strongly believe... I really do not doubt your side at all. But anyhow, if my teammate YayGollum doesn't show up maybe we could call it a win for OiE and just discuss this?
But anyhow, I apologise for the fact you may now (if Yay doesn't show up) have wasted all that time and effort, and have to wait 2 more weeks to debate again.

Since I've started reading Tolkien, my views on debating have changed. It just isn't right for me personally unless it happens naturally in a discussion where I believe in what I am fighting for. I decided this a few Rounds ago but didn't want to let my team down... but this specific topic is too much for me to. I'd be saying things that go against what I know to be fundamental principals in the mythology and that is too much.

PS: Sorry about barging in again, I didn't know where else to post this.

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
And a fine opening post it is Ravenna:D
I second that. :D

Nóm.

I am extremely sorry that you feel unable to continue this debate although I do understand your reasons. I think that we should give Yay and the rest of your team a chance to decide on this first.

I will miss your insights into this topic. :)

[Nóm]

But the debate is on, I posted again though I will not say Feanor was wrong. There is no need to delay, even without me there was no need as the situation was not going to improve.

Aside from me, Yay is the only debator of GoO who even knows about this subject... it's not exactly a Tolkien Guild over there... which you've probably noticed. So without me it was him or no one... and he is our best debator so I think he could have given you guys a good fight alone.

[Arvedui]

Well done, all of you on round 8. Great opener, Ravenna!

On the coming rounds:
There are still two rounds left. Our next opponents will be the Tolkienologists, and we will need four debators. No date have been set yet, but expect it to be started any day now. It is scheduled for october 22, but we all know how much that means...
The finishing round will be against Periaur.

We also need to provide some judges for rounds 9 and 10. The debates we must provide judges for are:
Round 9:
- Scholars vs. Eruhíni
- Outcasts vs. Periaur
Round 10
- Sholars vs. Outcasts
- Eruhíni vs. Tolkienology

So start thinking about that as well.

My personal opinion is that this fine Guild have done very well in all debates so far. I hope that you all will help out so that we can finish in style.

[Chymaera]

I will be able to come and help.

This weekend :(

Life has been to busy lately.

see you then

[Ravenna]

Having taken the plunge once. :D
I'm willing and available - for the next round at least.

[Arvedui]

Okay, the thread for Round 9 has been opened here. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13644)
So far we have:
- Chymaera
- Ravenna

I will be able to participate over the week-end. The modem at my home-pc is gone to oblivion, so there is nothing much that I can do until monday evening.
I need someone to:
1) Post the team (we still need one or two more, depending if you want me along or not);)
2) Coordinate the choosing of side, and exchanging of points of view.

See you on monday 27th.

[Gothmog]

I am willing to be in the team also.

a question has been raised by Lhunithiliel about one of the judges picked for the debate

Just a question before it all starts.
As Black Captain is also a member of GoT, is it OK for him to judge ?
I don't mind that.... but later our opponents might object to this fact and just to avoid any misunderstanding or/and future rows I suggest this question to be cleared.
I have no objections. What do the rest of you think? Please answer quickly.

[Ravenna]

I have no objection to Black Captain either.

[Gothmog]

Ok. I am posting our team for Round 9 as

Arvedui
Chymaera
Ravenna
Gothmog.

I hope that everybody is happy with this. :)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Gothmog
Ok. I am posting our team for Round 9 as

Arvedui
Chymaera
Ravenna
Gothmog.

I hope that everybody is happy with this. :)

Not me! :( :p

[Lhunithiliel]

Ignore my previous post! :)

For our team (including me! ;) ) enjoyed immensly meeting your team on the Round 9 - debate!

It was a real pleasure and most of all, I wish to express our gratitude for the friendly tone and for the most informative posts!

I would like to also hope that both our guilds may and will surely find more occasions for co-operation!

Therefore, please, feel most welcome to join us in every and all the activites and projects we have initiated in our "halls"!!!

Once again, congratulations on your performance in the debate! You were veeeery tough opponents! ;) :D

[Gothmog]

The debate was such because of Both teams involved. :)

I am very pleased that you and your team enjoyed the debate as much as did we. I would like to echo your sentaments and congratulate you and your team for such a well fought and friendly debate. (though the judges may have different ideas :D).

Also thank you for the invite to the activities in your halls. I am sure that we will take you up on that.

As for being tough opponents I feel that I have been put through a wringer by your team. ;) :D.

[Nóm]

Well it's already about time for another round. :D I'm hosting the upcoming between you guys and the Periaur. Looks like they're pushing to start the final round as soon as possable. I am just here to let you guys that you may like to start figuring who will be on the team for Round 10. The debate thread will likely be opened very shortly after I learn that you have a team ready to go.

[Arvedui]

"Once more into the breach, my friends!"

Okay, do we have anyone that are ready for the next challenge?
I am available today and tomorrow, and then from late afternoon on the 10th until the 14th. After that I will be gone for some time, as work is demanding my presence:mad:
How about the rest of you?

[Ravenna]

I call in most evenings so am available if required.
Or desired after my pitiful efforts in the last round :o . (I can see I'll have to spend out on HoME soon if I am to continue debating!) :o

[Arvedui]

What pitiful efforts?
IMO, there are no such thing as a pitiful effort. We all do our best according to our knowledge. . It just happens that sometimes we don't know too much about the subject, or don't care too much about it. After all, that is why we debate as a team. There is always one or two to drag the rest along the chosen path.

So now we have:
* Ravenna
*
*
* (Arvedui?)

[Gothmog]

Okay, do we have anyone that are ready for the next challenge? Seeing as there has been such a huge response, I had better put my name down on the waiting list. ;)

There is always one or two to drag the rest along the chosen path. Are you ready to drag me? :)

[Ancalagon]

I would love to participate, it seems like ages since I last had a good debate...the only problem being I have 3 exams a week on Monday. I am 32years old and still doing exams:(

Anyhoo, if it could be delayed it would suit me best, if not, I trust another of the Guilds minions might wish to join the fray.

[Aulë]

Anc, could you please select a neutral judge for your Round 8 debate in the near future?

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Gothmog
Are you ready to drag me? :)
I will wait and see when the results from the previous attempt comes rolling in:D
Unfortunately, we won't be able to pick sides the next time. Shouldn't be any problem, though. It is just Captain Kangaroo and his team of koala's...:eek: ;)

So the team is:
- Arvedui
- Gothmog
- Ravenna
- Anc (arrives just in time to finish them off.)

Protests to be posted within the next 12 hours.

[Aulë]

btw....I don't want to put any pressure on you guys (with the high blood pressure and all ;) ), but whoever wins this debate between you lot and the Tweens will probably end up winning the Tournament...;)

[Gothmog]

Good. I hate runnaway victories. :)